Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to SBI Cards and Payment Services Limited Q4 FY 2024 earnings conference call. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Abhijit Chakravorty, MD and CEO. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you. Good evening, everyone. I'm pleased to welcome you to the Q4 FY 2024 and FY 2024 earnings call, along with my senior management team at SBI Card. India has sustained its growth momentum and surpassed all projections despite issues on global fronts. The second advance estimates place real GDP growth at 7.6% for FY 2023-24, the third successive year of 7% or higher growth. The urban consumption stays buoyant. Credit card have been significant contributor to the overall digital growth in the country. 21% growth in the number of cards in H2 2023. Credit card transactions value stood at INR 9.39 trillion and saw a rise of 11% during the same period. Total number of credit cards in the industry crossed 100 million in February 2024.
Spends have seen an impressive growth, with over 27% year-on-year increase in financial year FY 2024. Spends have grown from INR 1.4 trillion during 2022-2023, to over INR 1.8 trillion in 2023-2024. In financial year 2024, many new customer-focused implementations, regulatory measures have been introduced and implemented. These include offering of card network options to customers, rollout of Master Directions on internal ombudsman mechanism in regulatory entities, and other implementations relating to billing, account closures, et cetera. Risk weight for unsecured lending was also increased during the year. These measures are crucial for the long-term stability of industry as the credit card penetration in India is increased. At SBI Card, the agile nature of our organization has allowed us to adapt and implement these regulatory measures and remain compliant while maintaining a strong growth momentum.
As you are aware, financial year 2024 has been a significant year for us as we completed 25 years of successful journey in the Indian credit card market during the year. During this journey, SBI Card has continuously set new benchmarks and achieved new milestone with each passing year. This trend of growth journey continues as we have achieved robust business performance across all key parameters, even in financial year 2024 too. As always, we continue to create value for our stakeholders, and I'm pleased to share that we declared an interim dividend of INR 2.5 per equity share for financial year 2024 in the month of March 2024. During financial year 2024, our new card acquisition was 4.4 million. We have added 1.03 million new accounts during Q4.
We have been selective in new acquisitions and maintained the new customer acquisition volume between 1-1.5 million. We intend to continue this at around this rate for the next two quarters also. Our cards in force stand at 1.89 crore. We continue to be the second largest credit card issuer in the country, and our CIF market share is at 18.6% during financial year 2024. Card spends have grown to INR 330,000 crore during financial year 2024. Retail spends are now at over INR 260,000 crore, which is a strong 27% increase over financial year 2023. Our total card spends in Q4 of financial year 2024 stands at INR 79,653 crore with 11% year-on-year growth.
Out of this, retail spends have contributed over INR 69,189 crore, with 25% year-on-year growth in quarter four of financial year 2024. This is a contribution of around 87% to the overall spends during the quarter. It is noteworthy that our retail spreads, retail spends per card has also increased by around 9% year-on-year in Q4 of financial year 2024. We continue to maintain number two position in the spends market share at 17.8% for financial year 2024. During Q4 of financial year 2024, we have seen good growth in both costs and online spends across all key spend categories, including departmental stores, health, utilities, education, travel, entertainment, restaurant, among others. Our online spends continue to be strong and have contributed 58% of total retail spends in financial year 2024.
We have always maintained that a higher customer spends active rate is vital, and at SBI Card, our retail spends active rate has been over 50%, including during the year financial year 2024. With new guidelines coming into play, corporate spends are at INR 10,464 crore during the quarter. B2B spends were completely stopped from February, mid-February. As the vendors now are slowly getting set up as merchants by acquiring banks, billing volume will return. We expect that this should normalize by June, July of the next year. We expect retail spends and NEA to grow in tandem at around 23%-25% in FY 2025. Driven by customer centricity, we have rolled out many new initiatives during FY 2024.
We had introduced the functionality of UPI on SBI Card issued RuPay credit cards, which enables SBI Card users with RuPay cards to make transactions using UPI-enabled apps. Our monthly average UPI spends per active account has increased to around INR 12,500 in Q4 of financial year 2024. Department stores and grocery, restaurants, fuel, utilities, and apparel have been among the top five categories for UPI spends. Tier two and beyond customers are utilizing this facility more than tier one, as this facility increases the number of acceptance outlets for RuPay cards. We have also forged strategic partnerships with leading brands in the country to roll out our full co-brands, including Reliance SBI Card. This card has been launched in partnership with Reliance Retail, India's largest retailer.
Reliance SBI Card has been crafted to meet the varying needs of a wide spectrum of customers, right from mass to premium. Customers have given us a very positive response. The card has already crossed 100,000 cards milestone since its launch. Titan SBI Card. This card has been launched in partnership with Titan Company Limited, a leading player in jewelry, watches, eyewear, and ethnic wear categories, and has been designed to address the consumer's aspirational spending needs. Since its launch in March this year, we have been receiving positive feedback on it. We will continue to assess, curate, and launch more such customer-centric products. Our focus on investment in harnessing the power of technology continues. We have extended SBI Card's end-to-end digital acquisition platform, Sprint, to YONO and internet banking of State Bank of India.
This allows the customers of State Bank of India to digitally apply and get a new SBI card on successful approvals and KYC verification. We roll out hyperlocal and national offers in partnership with leading brands throughout the year. In line, during festive season, in financial year 2024 also, we have rolled out around 2,200 offers across 27,000 cities to enhance festivities of our customers. We have continued our focus on ESG efforts, with focus on areas of environment and employee welfare. Our commitment to environmental, social, and governance principles has been at the forefront of our operations through our Impact 360 program. Since the fiscal year 2023, we have diligently adhered to the reporting requirements outlined by the Securities and Exchange Board of India through business responsibility and sustainability report.
In addition, I'm pleased to announce that we are fully prepared to embrace the enhancements introduced in BRSR framework, including the incorporation of core metrics and assurance requirements. Some of our efforts in ESG include continuous focus on paperless communication to customers and tree sapling plantations under the Help program, financial literacy workshop for women employees, undertaking of new projects to set up mother and child hospital at Uttarakhand, and many others. During the year, we have also added rural development as a new focus area for our ESG efforts, with an aim to enhance the quality of life in rural communities through skill development and improved healthcare. In our endeavor to further strengthen information security posture, we continue to enhance security controls and practices. We have upgraded our PCI DSS accreditation to the latest standard, that is PCI DSS version 4.0.
Considering the ever-revolving threat landscape, we will continue to invest and enhance our security posture to improve our cyber resilience and bring agility in business decisioning. I am proud to share that this year, too, our all-round efforts have been duly recognized. SBI Card has earned various prestigious recognitions in different areas. For instance, SBI Card was recognized as Superbrand for the year 2023 in the credit card category for the second consecutive year. We also received Golden Peacock Award for CSR and Best CSR Excellence Award in Healthcare by ASSOCHAM in their healthcare summit. SBI Card has been felicitated with DSCI Excellence Award under the category of Best Security Practices in Non-Banking Finance Company. This award reflects our relentless pursuit to enhance information security posture at the enterprise level.
Our sound business momentum has also helped us in registering healthy financial growth in quarter four of FY 2024 and for the FY 2024. Some of the key metrics are: Our total revenue has grown to INR 17,484 crore, with a 22% year-on-year growth during FY 2024, setting another benchmark. Our revenue from operations, too, stand strong at INR 16,968 crore, with a 24% year-on-year growth during FY 2024. Strong spends growth has resulted in the healthy growth of our receivables. Our receivables have reached INR 50,846 crore, with a 25% year-on-year growth in FY 2024. Our receivables per card has also grown and are at INR 26,918 in Q4 FY 2024, versus INR 24,293 in Q4 FY 2023.
In financial year 2024, SBI Card has achieved a profit after tax of INR 2,408 crore, registering a 7% growth over financial year 2023. In our Q4 financial year 2024, our PAT has grown at INR 662 crore, registering 11% year-on-year and 21% quarter-on-quarter growth respectively. We have been focusing on growing our overall interest earning receivables. The share of interest earning receivables is stable at around 61% in Q4 FY 2024. The percentage share of revolvers in the receivable mix has increased marginally and that stands at 24% in Q4 2024. It has been growing in absolute numbers. Our cost of fund was around 7.4% for Q4 2024.
As we had indicated in our last quarter's earnings call, that the full impact of the increased risk weight on bank borrowings for NBFCs will be felt in Q4, and with the increased bank borrowing costs, the cost of fund was higher by 20 basis points this quarter. Given the uncertainty around interest rate cuts, we expect the rates to be stable or marginally higher over the next quarter. This could make cost of fund increase marginally for quarter one of FY 2025. However, we feel comfortable in being able to absorb this nominal increase through transmission onto the asset side and keep our NIM stable. We continue to monitor the market developments and align our funding strategy accordingly. Net interest margin during the fourth quarter stood at 10.9%, despite high cost of funds. For FY 2024 as a whole, it stands at 11.3%.
Our cost to income for quarter four of financial year 2024 stood at 51%.... This has improved owing to non-festive season and lower corporate spends proportion. Cost to income ratio shall be in the range of 58%-60% for financial year 2025, and due to lower corporate spends targeted to grow gradually, shall remain subdued around 55% in the first quarter. Gross NPA is at 2.76% in quarter four of financial year 2024, as against 2.64% in quarter three of FY 2024. Our gross credit cost is at 7.6% at quarter four of FY 2024, as against 7.5% at quarter three of FY 2024.
As stated in the previous quarter, the industry has been witnessing stress in the overall card segment over the last few quarters, driven by macro factors like higher leverage and growth in advances, which were also taken note of by RBI and factored into regulatory actions. We had pointed out that some customers had obtained multiple trade lines from other lenders after taking a card from us, and that this over-leverage has impacted their repayment capacity, which in turn had impacted our portfolio. We had also indicated that our credit costs would remain elevated around current levels for next few quarters, and that future trends would depend on how the ecosystem improves based on the corrective actions taken by RBI.
We are now observing that in the overall industry, delinquency trends of 30+ and 90+ have remained elevated in December 2023 at the same levels as of September 2023. In response to this, we are taking wide range of actions covering the entire product life cycle, including sourcing, underwriting, marketing, cross-sell campaigns, portfolio management actions like credit line decrease and blocking of cards, intensification of collection efforts, and also offering restructuring via flexible payment plans to reduce overall credit cost. We are also refreshing, upgrading, and continue to leverage a large number of analytic capabilities in order to create sharper insights, early warning triggers about our portfolio. We leverage a large amount of variety of data across the card life cycle stages from onboarding to collections, recovery, account aggregator. We leverage data from GST, EPFO, et cetera. It is a continuous effort.
We have also reduced limits of more than 1.5 lakh accounts last quarter, taking the total limit reductions to over 5 lakh accounts over the last financial year, with focus on intensified collection efforts on these accounts. We will continue to fine-tune our policies and processes across the customer life cycle. As previously mentioned, the industry has experienced challenges in the card sector due to macroeconomic factors, such as increased leverage and advances growth. Recovery is typically spread over a couple of years, and noting the current microenvironment, we expect a slightly elongated period of recovery for our write-off pool . At the same time, we note that our more recent sourcing has been continuing to perform better, as stated in last quarter, too. As the share of this sourcing increases, the overall portfolio quality will improve.
We expect our credit cost to remain elevated in near future, with variations during the year. The interventions already implemented should help in improving credit costs later during the year. We will continue to keep an eye on the environment and portfolio performance to take appropriate actions and expect the average credit cost for the financial year 2024, 2025 to be lower than the current levels, but it may prevail above 7%. In financial year 2024, our return on average assets is at 4.7, as against 5.6% in financial year 2023. During quarter four, financial 2024, it has been at 4.7%. Going forward, we expect return on average assets to be around 4.5%. Our ROE is at 21.7%, as against 25.3% in financial year 2023.
We look forward to financial year 2025 to continue our growth trajectory and scale up the business in a profitable manner. The company has grown its CIF base at CAGR of 13.5% in the last five years. Our overall spends have grown strong at CAGR of 20.3% in last five years. SBI Card is actively working on many initiatives to increase customer focus.... and thereby grow CIR and spends in future as well. We expect the business to continue delivering higher profits at a healthy ROA and ROE. Our liquidity position continues to be strong during Q4 of FY 2024. The company raised INR 1,275 crore of Tier II bonds to augment its capital adequacy ratio this quarter.
With this issuance, our CR, CRAR is at 20.5%, up from 18.4% as of December 2023. Our liquidity coverage ratio for Q4 of FY 2024 is at 105%, as against the statutory requirement of 85%. So India continues to have a strong consumption story, which is an encouraging sign for us. We are all geared to take advantage of the vast growth potential that India's growing credit card market offers. Now we are open to questions.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. We'll take a first question from the line of Mahrukh Adajania from Nomura. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hello. Good evening. So, my first question is that, so, you did give a commentary around credit costs and even delinquencies, December versus September at sector level, but is there any sign or any data that you've picked up that they are improving in January, February, March? I know that bureau data may not be available, published bureau data may not be available for the March quarter, but in general, your market intelligence.
We like to comment only on published information, and we don't really have anything available so far.
Okay, sir. Sir, if you see, excluding the standard asset provisioning also, there's probably a slight uptick in credit costs. I mean, the delinquencies would have risen somewhat, quarter-on-quarter, or how do we view that?
So in the last quarter, the increase in credit cost has come from worsening of write-offs, but incremental provisions that we've taken in this quarter are lower than the incremental provisions taken in the previous quarter, and recoveries are also somewhat better. And that is evident in the slide that we have given in the deck. If you read closely, you can make that out. As regards flow rates, our experience with flow rates is in line with the industry experience as it is published, and that's all we can say for the moment. But the flow rates, the early delinquency performance of our new sourcing, as we mentioned last time, continues to be better. And as the composition of the new book improves, we think they'll never start having a material impact on our overall delinquency numbers.
Got it, sir. Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we request you to restrict to two questions at a time. You may join back the queue for follow-up questions. Thank you. We'll take the next question from the line of Anuj from Bank of America. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Good evening, everyone. Thanks for the opportunity. The first question is from slide number 28. So, sir did talk about taking a more cautious view on new sourcing, but as I look at the market share across various parameters, cards, spends, transactions, we have seen a significant decline over the last 12 months or so. So can you talk about maybe the strategy around that? Would risk be taking precedence over growth in the near term, and we could see this trend in the next coming year as well, or is there some strategy to have a reversal there?
Good evening, Anuj. Regarding the market share, our strategy has always been, and we've stated earlier also, that we would like to maintain or grow the market share. With respect to cards in force, we are at around 18.6%. Some of, as we stated two quarters back, we had done some cleaning of our portfolio, where there were inactive accounts, and there were, we were unable to get some KYCs from the customer, so we closed those accounts. On the spends piece, we were, in fact, doing better till quarter three. If you and RBI data is published, so until quarter three, we were doing quite, quite well. In quarter four, the impact has come a bit because of the business to business payments, which we stopped from mid-February.
This, actually, if you see the data, brought the share of the corporate spends on the overall spend mix down. Because of this, we are at a, this, you see the decline in share. Otherwise, we would, we would get this back on track, from June, July onwards. We have already started working on this front. So you should see, at least the baseline coming back very quickly and, growth from there. On the transactions fee, the transaction with, we are betting on our UPI, and you have seen the RuPay data, which has also been put across. So, in tier two plus terms, we see a far better pickup of customer RuPay customers using it on UPI terminals.
So these are the three action points that we are taking, but on a strategic basis, we would like, we would, we would want to maintain and grow market share on all three fronts.
Got it. And just to delve a bit more on the guidance, so, the two parameters, one is credit costs and NIM guiding, which, which are of interest. Firstly, on the NIM side, is it fair to assume this is the bottom, and, unless there is a further rate hike by the regulator, we are not going to see any further, NIM deterioration? And second part on the credit cost: so, sir, we talk about YOY decline, and but still, elevated at 7%+ for the next year. So, how do we see the trend line, in the second half? Like, should we see a number closer to seven and maybe declining below 7% in FY 2026, if I were to take extrapolated to the next year?
I'll take the first question, Anuj. On the NIM, we've said earlier that we do expect the cost of funds to be marginally higher, but also expect that we should be able to transmit that increased cost, whatever marginal increase that might be there on the asset side as well. So expect the NIM to be in the same, around the same levels, plus, minus, obviously, depending on where finally the cost of funds happen, how soon can we transmit that on the asset side, but in around these levels only. And this is again, I'll qualify based on the current understanding of when the rate cuts are gonna happen, nothing in the first half of the year for sure, and this is based on that understanding.
Coming to the credit cost part, we had stated in the previous earnings call also that, based on the portfolio analysis and an account level scrub, we had identified, and we have been monitoring closely the accounts which are having early trends of delinquency, and we have taken actions on that part. Now, based on that, we had given... we had expected that these accounts will be improving. Now, what happens is that if, if the next quarter or so or beyond is continuing to be the current levels and high levels, then, and as the recent acquisition component increases and the portfolio mix stabilizes, definitely there will be improvements, and that's where we are, we are seeing that there will be a reduction.
Whether it will come down below seven, it will be difficult to estimate and comment as of now.
Okay. Got it, sir. Thank you very much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nitin Aggarwal from Motilal Oswal. Please go ahead. Mr. Agarwal, your line is unmuted. Please go ahead with your question. Mr. Agarwal?
Sorry, am I audible?
Yes, please go ahead. Mr. Agarwal?
Hello, am I audible?
Yes, you are. Please go ahead.
Sorry for this. So I have two questions. One is on OpEx, wherein the cost ratios have improved considerably this quarter, which we have attributed to the lower corporate spends and this being a non-festive quarter. So how should we view the corporate spends now in FY 25, and any color around the therefore the cost-income ratio for the year?
So we are working on getting our corporate spends back to maintain the market share and grow it. This would take this first quarter to get us back to almost close to normalcy. So from second quarter onwards, you can estimate, as was stated in the opening remarks also, we will go back to the 55% plus OpEx to CV ratios. This quarter, you would see a lower number.
Okay. And, secondly, on margins, while we have said that the cost of funds have gone up, but sequentially, like 7.6, from there it has come down to 7.4, but the yields have also come down by 40 basis points. So-
Nitin, I would suggest that instead of looking at the 2-point average, which is where it is showing a 7.6-7.4, on page number. I'll just look at the page number. We've also given the-
31. Page 31.
Yeah. We've also given the daily weighted daily average cost, where you will see it's gone up from 7.3% to 7.5%, and that is a true reflection of where the cost of funds is.
... Okay. And alongside on the yields then, that like,
Dropped marginally by 10 basis points, 11-10.9 on a like-to-like basis, monthly averages.
So, yield actually went up?
Sorry, not in NIM, as I said, yeah.
Yield went up from 16.6 to 16.7. Cost of funds went up from 7.3 to 7.4. The NIM from 11 to 10 point-
10.9. Yeah.
Okay, got that. Lastly, like, if you can share some color on the UPI spends, because if you look at the monthly UPI spend, that is running very close to the overall average spend per card. So whatever else your RuPay portfolio is there, how is the non-UPI spend on those RuPay cards? How is that trending?
So monthly average spend per customer is in the range of, as declared, we have around INR 140,000-148,000, which comes to around INR 12,000-13,000 per customer per month. But because 50% of them are active every month, spend per active customer goes up to INR 25,000-26,000 rupees per month. So this 13,000 that you see is an active customer spend. These all customers are active. So like to like, these customers are spending INR 13,000 in that on UPI, and the balance, INR 12,000-13,000, is happening on the card.
Okay. Okay, got that. Sure. Thank you. Thanks so much, sir.
Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Piran Engineer from CLSA. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi, team. Congrats on the quarter. Just a couple of questions. Firstly, sir mentioned that you all are resorting to restructuring of loans. I think I heard something like that. Can you just elaborate a bit more on that?
So basically, we provide them some room, headroom to pay out. So basically, it will be converted into EMIs, and like any amortized loan, it is allowed to be paid over a certain period, can vary up to 12 months or more also. Reason, so that depending upon their own cash flows, they are able to pay us out comfortably without asking for the entire delinquent amount to be paid up after they have turned NPA.
Okay. So sorry, these are, before they turn, these are like stage two customers?
No, these are Stage 3 customers.
This is stage three. Okay. Okay, fair enough. Sir, secondly, just wanted to understand what parameters do network incentives depend on? Because I see this year, our spends, retail spends are higher, but our number of card sourcing is lower, and our network incentive seems to be lower than what I thought would have come through.
Kiran, network incentives depend on various variables, but they also vary from network to network.
Okay.
Okay? So we look at, essentially, there is a cost of using a network, and then there is a incentive as a kind of a return back for certain performances that we do, which we get from the network. Essentially, we are interested in the net cost. Net cost for us, for all three networks, which is Visa, Mastercard, or, and RuPay, is broadly similar. RuPay, as a network, we have, we have, last year, if you see, we have done many more cards on RuPay. We have increased the total volume to almost close to 3 million plus. Given that scenario, in case of RuPay, the network incentive amount is lower, but the cost of RuPay network, of using the RuPay network, is also fairly low.
So you don't see that in the cost line, but you don't also see that in the network incentive line also.
Okay.
Net cost-wise, it is all similar.
The interchange would also be lower, right, then?
Yeah, yeah.
Got it, sir.
It will show in the cost line also.
Got it. Got it. Fair enough. And just lastly, in terms of rental spends, we used to track about 10%-12% of our total spends used to be rentals, related spends. Has that sustained? Has it come off, and are we still charging INR 200 bucks per transaction on that?
We are still charging a fee for every rental transaction. However, the rental growth, rental spend growth, has reduced considerably. What I would say is, if the overall retail spends have grown close to 27% year-on-year, rental spends would be close to half of that. The growth rate should be half of that.
Okay, that's because of the-
Mr. Engineer, I request you to join back the queue, please.
Yes, thank you.
Thank you. We'll take our next question from the line of Nishant Shah from Millennium. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi, hi, team. Thank you for the opportunity.
Mr. Shah, can you-
I just want to go back to this-
Mr. Shah, can you use your handset mode, please?
... Yeah, is this better?
You can go ahead with your question.
Yeah. Right. So I just want to go back to this cost bit a little again. So if I just I'm on slide number 13. Sorry. On the P&L summary slide, which is slide number 12. So sequentially, we've seen a fee and other revenue decline of about INR 300 crore, so from INR 2,500 crore down to INR 2,200 crore, and the operating cost is down from INR 2,400 crore down to INR 1,900 crore, so about INR 500 crore. So how, what part of this is attributable to corporate spends coming off? If you could help to understand that, because I'm trying to understand, like, what part of this cost reduction is more sustainable.
Is it to do just with because corporate spends came off, so the cost came off the moment they're back, the spends come, like, this OpEx comes back? Or is there an element of, like, higher promotional cost during the festive period in the base and, like, net, net to the fee income and the cost income of corporate cards and spends is about similar. Could you help me understand that a bit, please?
I think the way to look at it would be, look at the cost-to-income ratio for a non-festive quarter and this quarter, because that's comparable. Don't compare the Quarter Three cost to income to a Quarter Four cost to income, because Quarter Three is anyway influenced by the higher cashback spend that we do for the various campaigns that we do. Which is where we said earlier, that we expect that the cost-to-income ratio for the full year to be in that range of 58%-60%. This quarter will be lower, because as we pick up the corporate spend, it will be around 55 odd% or maybe a little lower than that as well. So, 51% reported for Quarter Four. We're talking of a 55% kind of a range for Quarter One.
That should just give you an idea in terms of if the corporate spends come back, what is it, what element of the OpEx, OpEx spend will be back with the spend back.
Yeah.
And, and, uh-
And also, just one last comment on the fee income. The fee obviously is lower because of the... As you mentioned, the corporate spends were lower, and therefore the interchange also was lower. So to that extent, as the corporate spends come back, this number will go up as well.
Usually the interchange which you receive on corporate spend is from 1.9%-2.1%, depending on the kind of spending. For every INR 1,000 crore, it's close to INR 20 crore worth of revenue line which you can add there. Okay?
Got it.
So, and that will also give you the sense of drop because of the corporate card spending from a quarter-to-quarter revenue perspective.
Yeah, but simultaneously, you need to add it to the cost also.
Simultaneously, you need to reduce the cost there, okay?
Got it. And, and a second-
Just one more point.
Yes, right, go ahead.
You should look at our interest income growth from quarter to quarter. That has grown, so that's, that's gonna go stable because that is, a baseline asset build-up, which has already happened in that sense. This particular part, if the revenue comes in, then the cost will also come in, and both are very directly linked to each other.
Got it. It's perfect, that's clear. Then a second question, like, one of the small or like mid-sized private sector banks mentioned in their call that they're expecting a circular on credit cards. So it didn't really specify what that was around, but like, if you've been engaging with the regulator, could you comment about what's in the pipeline in terms of regulation? Because the comment was also that it's perceived to be a little more stringent, whatever that means. So, if anything's in the pipeline, could you just talk about it? What nature of this regulation is coming in?
No, we won't venture into regulators' area. That, let regulators come out with whatever guidelines. They have been coming out with various guidelines, and we fall in line, we comply with them. We won't like to speculate on what regulator would like to do.
All right. Okay, yeah. Yeah, the context of the question was just like, you know, there's a heightened regulatory scrutiny around it, and they're a monoline company, so, the anxiety levels are a little higher. All right. Perfect. Thank you. That, those are my two questions.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we request you to restrict to one question at a time now, please. You may join back the queue for follow-up questions. The next question is from the line of Shubhranshu Mishra from PhillipCapital. Please go ahead.
Hi, good evening. So, when I look at the job openings on SBI Card's websites, I think almost 50/50% of the job openings are either for recovery or collection. So is this because of heightened delinquencies, sticky delinquencies or very high churn in those teams? That's the first. Second is also around credit costs. I think they've been much spoken about it. We are speaking of close to 7% kind of credit costs in our credit card business, where we get so much of data in one spend versus say, when we look at other business models like microfinance, where there are hordes of new-to-credit customers, and we get a slightly lower credit costs or similar credit costs. So the...
And the quality of customers also would be different basis the income level. So how do we compare these two business models, microfinance and credit cards? And the demographic cohort should also be different, and it's just a bit overwhelming to get similar kind of credit cost back.
[Foreign language]
Sir, you're not audible.
The first part first. The second part I was not very clear. The first part regarding the jobs, there are jobs to be offered, jobs to be taken in the entire industry. So people join us. We do need people, we do need hands and various point of time, so job openings will keep on coming, and we are part of the industry. There will be some amount of churn, some amount of item business activity. So it's a combination of all taken together where we require people, and we keep on augmenting our strength as and when wherever we require. So I won't be able to join you in your assessment whether to what extent this is linked to attrition or the credit cost part of it.
But then, this is a bulk process. The second question I could not understand.
The second question is, why is our credit cost comparable to a microfinance business where the income level and the demographic cohorts are inferior than the income levels and the demographics that we own? There will lot more new credit customers in the microfinance business as well.
So I think you should look at all the metrics together, not just the credit cost number. Look at the net interest margin that other businesses deliver, and finally, the proof of the pudding is the ROE that we deliver, and the kind of capital base that we have. So we deliver 20%+ ROE on 20%+ of capital adequacy.
Got it. And if you-
Mr. Mishra, I request you to join back the queue, please, as we have other participants waiting. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Gao Zhixuan from Schonfeld . Please go ahead.
Hey, sir, congratulations on the quarter. Just want to dig a little bit more on the, your comments that the new vintage is better. First of all, which vintage are you talking about? Is it, you know, FY 24 vintage?
Sorry, could you repeat the question, please?
The current vintage, what is the new vintage?
Yeah, new vintage is 2022, 2023, 2024. That is now contributing to about 45% of our book. This number used to be about 40% in the last quarter.
Yeah. So when you say new vintage is doing better, are you just referring to FY 2024 vintage, in the last 12 months, or?
This is 2023-2024.
Okay. So, and also, do you mind elaborating a little bit on, you know, what do you mean by new vintage is better?
I will complete-
And, uh-
I'll complete why 2023-2024, because somewhere during the beginning of calendar year 2024, 2023, we started initiating the corrective actions. So that's where the recent acquisitions are helping us out. As we have stated out in our call also, that after we have initiated various steps, beginning from the calendar year of 2023, we have now getting the results out of it, and we expect that to continue. Sorry, I interrupted you, but I thought I will complete that.
Yeah. Thanks, thanks so much for that. So, yeah, so just want to understand, when you say the new vintage is better, do you mean that it's better than the average credit cost? Let's say the new vintage credit cost now is better than the average credit cost of delinquency, or, you know, you are meaning it by, you know, from a vintage analysis basis. Because if I recall correctly, you know, the credit cost takes about 24 months to reach peak delinquency, right? And, at the start it's pretty benign. So just wondering, you know, whether you can share more color on that.
Yeah. So this is a like-to-like comparison of the early delinquency performance of the new sourcing versus the performance of sourcing done in the prior period at the same point of their life. So this is called the M6 30+, six months on book, 30+ delinquency. It's a standard industry metric. That's performing better for our new sourcing versus the sourcing done in the prior periods.
Got it. And the magnitude of how much better, is there any way you can share the magnitude with us?
The magnitude is,
We don't provide that level of detail in our disclosures.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
Got it, sir. And on-
Sir, I request you to join back the queue, please. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Shweta Daptardar from Elara Capital. Please go ahead.
Thank you, sir, for the opportunity. So we did mention in the opening comments that we have been taking corrective actions with respect to the customer cohort, which has availed multiple credit lines and later on added to our delinquency. But have you revamped or rebuilt predictive analytical models wherein customer data or cash flows that are easily available to us, sort of give us some early warning indicators, and therefore, there might be certain, you know, credit cost guidance that we can provide. So, are we sort of working on these lines?
... Yeah, so I will invite my Chief Credit Officer to respond.
So, Shweta, we are actually, we have, you know, we built all our models right from acquisition to portfolio to collection. You know, the spend repayment cashflow data that is available for these customers, and we have started utilizing these models to take corrective action, whether it is in terms of better selection of customers or in terms of identifying segments for corrective action, which could be limit reduction, which could be, you know, basically early payment reminders, et cetera. So also looking at customers who are delinquent, so that we can identify the right type of offer for them. We talked about hardship, we talked about, you know, reaching out to them in a slightly different manner. So we are doing all those actions based on the redeveloped predictive analytical models.
Sure, that helps.
Thank you. Requesting participants to restrict to one question, please. The next question is from the line of Rohan Mandora from Equirus Securities. Please go ahead.
Good evening, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. So I just wanted to understand, have we got any recommendation from the regulator on any corrective actions? Similarly, considering the fact that, recently a lot of entities have got some updates from the regulator. That is one. And second, from a strategy perspective, if you look at it, right now, whatever actions are being taken on card industry, the competitive intensity is reducing because many players are going slow on their business. So how should we look at SBI Card over the next two years? Would you look to aggressively gain market share, or would like to be conservative given the macro environment right now?
The first part first. Answer is no. We do not have anything from the regulator, which is any red flag. As you all are aware, the regulator, being a regulated entity, we are subjected to periodical oversights. Those continue. We submit our compliances. That's a regular process. Beyond that, we don't have anything else.
You are right, competitive intensity has reduced in the last quarter or so. Our stated position is that we would want to maintain and gain market share, but we would, in next 2 quarters, we are looking at close to 1-1.1 million only. This has to be done in a balanced way. We will want to do increase our new customer sourcing and gain share, but while getting our credit costs at a much more reasonable levels. So these are both the things will go hand in hand. It cannot be that we, in the pursuit of market share, we will not look at the credit costs. So both things will continue to get balanced.
As our Chief Credit Officer was mentioning, new models have been developed, new work has happened on some of these areas. We should be able to have much better selection of customers with these actions.
Just a data kind question, sir. You alluded to that on the corporate spend, the interchange is between 1.9-2.1. How should we think on the cost on that will come up when the spend come up, if you can ballpark guide on that? And secondly, on the 30+ DPD flows during March at a portfolio level, how would that be visible in the December quarter?
So on the first part, which is because it's a deal-to-deal basis, so it is dependent on what kind of deal you have done with which partner. So whatever return goes out of that, which is called pass back or return back to the customer, is deal-to-deal dependent. It's a confidential information, so usually we don't declare that, that particular number. On the-
Ballpark range of average?
Won't be able. It's a, it's a competitive number. There's, it's a market proprietary information.
Okay. And on the 30 plus-
Mr. Mandora, I request you to join back the queue, please. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Abhishek Murarka from HSBC. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi, good evening. So I just wanted to understand that you've been saying that you've been, you know, reducing limits of, you know, let's say, 1.5 lakh accounts last quarter and so on. Can you help me understand what, maybe one or two attributes that you observe, which is the trigger for you to, you know, cut back on limits? So how do you, how do you go about identifying that, let's say, for somebody who's been given a card 12 months back or 15 months?
Basically, we are looking at their spending behavior with us. We do look at, you know, is there any issues that we see in the bureau records. We also see if there is an increase in leverage with that customer. We feel that, you know, even if there is no stress that you observe right now, there could be increasing stress because of the leverage that is building up. These are some of the key features. Besides, we've also started looking at the transaction spend of the customer, seeing how if there's any shift in the transaction pattern over a period of time, which may indicate that there are some signs of economic stress.
To get this data, apart from the transaction data, which of course you get automatically, but to get the other data of leverage, et cetera, how often do you have to hit the bureau? Or maybe do you have to ask the customer for consent? How does that work?
So for all our customers, we get the bureau data at least once in a quarter. These days, we have increased the frequency of bureau hits for certain set of customers, which we, as per our model, becomes high risk. Apart from that, there are a lot of triggers that we take from bureau. So if the customer takes another trade line or takes for suddenly three or four personal loans, all that information comes back to us as triggers and gets fed into these models.
That happens on a quarterly basis?
No, no . Triggers are not very much.
Triggers are not, you know, whenever the bureau gets updated.
Okay, okay, okay. All right, got it. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Saurabh Kumar from JP Morgan. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. I'm on the slide 15 of yours. You know, so just a question on this open market channel. So now you have a history of, you know, more than 6 years of this business. Given the delinquency, given the operating cost of this channel, do you think that the profitability of this channel is better than the company average or it will be lower than the company average?
It is similar to company average.
Despite the higher sourcing costs and the delinquencies here?
It has higher sourcing costs. It has slightly higher delinquency as this one, but it has higher revenues.
Yeah, I understand. So the revolve basically is, on the, interest-
Higher spends, higher fees, higher risk, interest income, more premium.
Okay. All right, sir. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from Pranav G. from Bernstein. Please go ahead.
Hey, good evening. Thanks for taking the question. You are guiding on the credit costs for next year, that it would be above the 7%. Would you also be able to provide a sense of where your Stage 2, Stage 3 numbers, the share could trend to by end of next year?
We don't give that level of detail in our disclosures.
Okay, no worries. Thank you.
Thank you. We'll take that as last question for today. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Abhijit Chakravorty for closing comments. Over to you, sir.
Thank you, everyone, for being with us and interacting with us. SBI Card has continuously proven its mettle to achieve strong growth and set new benchmarks. Going ahead, too, we will ensure that SBI Card continues its sustainable and profitable path. I would like to share my gratitude towards our shareholders, investors and business partners for their continued trust and support to SBI Card. Thank you.
Thank you, sir. On behalf of SBI Cards and Payment Services Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.