Good morning, everyone, and welcome to Siemens Limited Q4 FY24 Analyst and Investor Call. I'm Radhika Arora and lead the investor relations for Siemens Limited. I hope you all are in good health and would have seen the Q4 results that were announced late last month. Before we start this call, let me give you a few instructions about the technology that we are using here. We are using Microsoft Teams platform for the meeting. All of you are on mute, and the camera has been disabled. The meeting will start with a presentation by the management team, followed by Q&A. Anyone who wishes to ask a question should use the raise hand option, and we will enable the microphone for the person in that order. After enabling the microphone at our end, the speaker must also enable it on their device and then start with a question.
In the interest of time, each one of you is requested to limit the question to maximum two. After the question is over, the speaker's microphone will be disabled. Moving on to the presenters on the call today, we have with us Mr. Sunil Mathur, Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer, and Mr. Wolfgang Wrumnig, Executive Director and Chief Financial Officer of Siemens Limited from the management team. They will give you an operational and financial overview of the company's performance, after which we will move to the Q&A. Before I hand over to Sunil, please note that we take it as having read the Safe Harbor Statement that you can see in the presentation and also on the slide. With that, over to you, Sunil.
Thank you very much, Radhika, and very warm welcome to all of you to our analyst call. Maybe I just start with an overview and say at the outset that we believe that we have delivered double-digit growth, as we've been talking about, both on revenues as well as on the profits in the last four years post-COVID. I'm also convinced that we have the right technology coming out of our strategy for digitalization and Siemens Xcelerator. We also have the right strategy, which is connecting the real and the digital worlds to transform the everyday for our customers. And we also have a strategy of being a one-tech company. In other words, combining the strengths that we have across all our segments here in the company to deliver combined solutions that will really make an impact to the customer.
And finally, I think we've demonstrated over a period of time that we've got robust execution, and we are pretty consistent in the execution of our strategy as well as of the projects that we are undertaking. Now, over the next couple of minutes, I will very quickly run you through an overview of what we are doing on the business in each of our businesses, give you an overview of what we are doing there. Maybe start off first with a little bit of an overview on how we see the economy. And then I'll run through this very quickly, the segment-wise information, and then hand over to Wolfgang to deep dive into the financials because I believe that is what would really interest you. And then I do a quick wrap-up. We're trying to do this very quickly.
The slides are already uploaded, so you have the opportunity to look through them already, and our intent today is really to answer as many questions as we can that are on your minds. Just starting with the economy story, government spending and infrastructure has continued its slowdown, to be honest, in H1 for various reasons that are well known. We expect it to pick up in H2. It is slow right now to pick up, but we expect this to gather pace starting January onwards as well. Consumption, first signs and very, very first signs, a month or two of good indicators in terms of an uptick in consumption. Private sector CapEx is happening, but mainly in the new-age technologies: semiconductors, batteries, solar photovoltaic, e-vehicles, and so on. On the traditional verticals, it is slow. It still continues to be slow.
Some are doing better than others, but private sector CAPEX has not really picked up yet to the extent that we would have liked it to. On the energy side, we see a huge demand, and this is really booming in terms of demand for energy transmission and energy efficiency solutions as well. So it's a little bit of a mixed picture right now. On the verticals, as we said, overall, a lot of the verticals seem to be investing. Some of them are consolidating and then investing. Some of the verticals are flattish. I think the metals is known to everybody due to the dumping that is happening. There has been a delay in investment by local steel manufacturers. I think this is a stage right now of wait and watch. We'll have to wait and see what happens over here.
But overall, I think we do see an upward trend in the CapEx. Good announcements have been made, but slow in the tendering process. Let me put it that way. Some of them, however, are doing well. Power utilities, data centers, commercial buildings, pharma are ordering pretty well. Chemicals as well to some extent. But in the other verticals, it is basically slow in terms of the ordering right now, although announcements have been made, and we know that there are clear intents in place. Now, when I move to the individual businesses that we have, let me start with our Digital Industries business. I've outlined at the top over there the four subsegments that we have, also indicating some of the products and solutions that we offer over there.
This segment or this business, Digital Industries, is really being driven through the increased CapEx in electronics, in chemicals, pharma, and food and bev, all of which have already outlined clear investment targets. In electronics, for example, we see real traction happening in the semiconductor and battery space and e-vehicle space. Photovoltaics is another part, manufacturing, where automation, motion control are all being used. So those are real areas that we do see traction in. Pharma is doing pretty well already. Food and bev is a little bit slow right now, but we definitely see opportunities in these areas here. Now, maybe just to outline briefly some examples. For example, for a leading metal producer, we supplied the variable frequency drives, giving them 20% energy savings. Now, this is really not a one-off. These are examples that can be scaled.
Energy efficiency is becoming a major driver for investments in CAPEX by many industries, driven by their own targets of sustainability, but also driven by the need to save costs. And we see the example that I put over here spreading not only to one metal producer, but running across industries as well as more and more companies move out and start looking at ways to save energy and meet their sustainability targets. We had another very interesting success with a pharma and chemicals company that had the challenge where they were looking at large amounts of time in recording of the batch production data of drugs. Now, this is very, very critical. You need to be able to trace back all the data to every batch of a drug that is manufactured.
This is something that requires a lot of time, requires a lot of effort in the production process, and more importantly, sometimes slows down the actual production. Through the technologies that we were able to bring in, we were able to convert this into a completely paperless operation using our DCS solutions and our manufacturing execution system. Again, this is something that saves time, improves the throughput of drugs, creates more transparency in the entire production process, which is required by the FDA, which is required by all the regulatory authorities as well. This is something that can be scaled to a lot of other pharma and chemical companies. Moving on to the Smart Infrastructure business, here again, this is mainly electricals and building business, including our e-mobility business as well. Here we see data centers, commercial buildings really growing, a large demand coming in for it.
Steel and cement are definitely growth areas as the economy grows. Utilities under the RDSS stream as well are beginning to order, and we see here very clearly an uptake in demand for this business coming primarily out of the electrification and automation, electrical products, and building segments. Of course, the e-mobility business is doing well as well. Since we acquired the MASTECH company, it has really picked up in volumes as well over there. Now, just to give you some examples of the kind of work we are doing over here, for some real estate customers, we've been able to bring in building management solutions for them for their high-rise commercial areas. It brings in security as well, saves them energy. We are able to help them track energy and utility, other utilities there and monitor them in real life.
So it brings in the complete BMS solutions as well as fire safety and security. On the other hand, to the DISCOMs in Gujarat, we've been able to supply them RMUs, which increase their efficiencies as well. Another increasing demand for this across DISCOMs in the country. Moving on to the mobility space, this is a business where we've been classically for some time in the leaders in the electrification and signaling area. And this is something that we have now expanded with our various investments in rolling stock. You're aware of the locomotive project, which is on track right now. As you're aware, we will be delivering 1,200 locomotives over a period of 11 years.
The first one of them gets delivered by the end of next year, and then they will be subsequently delivered until over a period of 11 years with a maintenance period of 35 years thereafter. So this project is on track, and we are expanding into the metro space. We already announced an investment over there. We are already into bogies and traction motors. So you see, this is an area of growth. Very clearly, the electrification is continuing in the country. Signaling is with over 3,000 stations. We'll need the TCAS systems to be installed, and we are looking at that as well and very much involved in that technology as we are in the Vande Bharat trains with train sets and locomotives and bogies as well over there. So these are areas where we are very much present and will continue to be active in.
Some examples here as well, propulsion systems for 6,000 HP as well we are delivering. We got a large order for the metro in Bangalore where we were in a consortium with RVNL to electrify 58 km of the outer ring circle. In Bangalore, we were able to introduce a complete SCADA system and auxiliary substation works as part of the electrification work that we do at the Bangalore metro. Energy business continues to go strong. We've got the complete suite of offerings over there ranging from generation to transmission in this business. As you are all aware, the transmission business is booming not only in India but globally, and we are participating and supporting the parent company there as well with exports and transmission. Our factories are full on the transmission side. HVDC very clearly will be a growth driver here as the country moves towards renewable energy expansions.
HVDC transmission will be and grid stability will definitely be areas that the government is looking at. We are already seeing a boom in this business, mainly in the transmission. On the generation side, we are seeing a lot of activity around waste heat recovery in cement, in fertilizers, in chemical plants. This is something that we are at the forefront of as well in this business. Some projects that we've won, a STATCOM order that we have got to bring grid stability resulting from the renewable energy integration there. TBCB player, we were able to win an order for the largest 765 kV transformer kV substation business by supplying them a transformer. These are kind of businesses. The STATCOMs are coming in fast and furious, particularly with the integration with the RE integration.
There will be a greater need for STATCOMs in the country as for HVDC projects as well. I've been talking the last two years about Siemens Xcelerator, our platform which combines the real and the digital together. It is already gaining traction and is supporting our strategy of being a one-tech company. This is an open platform, which is, as mentioned, they're interoperable, flexible, open, provide solutions as a service. Most importantly, cybersecurity is becoming particularly in the OT space, becoming increasingly critical. We are working here with an ecosystem of partners, developers together with our customers as well. And this is not something where we only bring in our own products and solutions, but we work in an ecosystem to collectively find solutions for customers that will bring value to them in terms of productivity, resource efficiency, energy efficiency, speed of manufacturing, and enables them also to scale up.
Currently, we are working in four verticals there, but this is by no means restricted only to the four verticals. We will expand this to other verticals in the food and bev, pharma, chemical areas as well. Now, two years ago when we launched this, we had 125 individual cases where we were able to bring value to our customers. In the meantime, we've just taken a couple of these use cases, and I've been able to already win 200 references across these verticals, across customers, working not only with ourselves, but we are increasing the number of ecosystem partners that we are working with.
As I said, this is completely in line with our strategy of being a one-tech company where we combine the products and solutions that we have in our digital industry business with our smart infrastructure business to try and see how together we can combine this to answer real issues for our customers. And this is a different approach from going out and saying, "We've got certain products and certain solutions," and trying to sell only that. This is a more customer-in process where we go out and try and answer real challenges that our customers are facing. For example, a leading metals company had an increase in cyber attacks vulnerability due to higher digitalization and remote working that they had introduced in their company. The risk for them was they would lose sensitive data on the shop floor, machine data on the shop floor.
We were able to provide cybersecurity consulting offering to them with our products and also bring in software that brought that entire consulting product solutions, all of it together. In the meantime, we now have over 24 reference cases in this area, and we are able to scale this up not only in the metals business but also to other verticals in the company. A leading hospitality chain, for example, had a very high electricity consumption, and this is known roughly 40% of the fixed cost of hospitality of hotels comes from energy cost. This results also in higher CO2 emissions. Here, we were able to bring them an average energy saving of around 13%, saving them substantial CO2 emissions.
We've been able to get out of this roughly 90 reference cases where we are able to also scale this up not only to hotel chains but to malls, to stadiums, to schools, and so on, all of which energy efficiency is a huge benefit. In an FMCG company, they had the challenge of moisture content in their final product. This is where they wanted to reduce, monitor, and reduce the moisture content in their product. Here again, we were able to introduce science-based digital twin technologies on the Siemens Industrial Edge platform and help them to track this and effectively bring in energy savings, but also to control the moisture content of their product. Now, this is the first of its kind, and we have the opportunity to scale this across other food and bev businesses as well.
And this is really the business model that we have. We go in with one use case, pilot it with our consulting, with our products, with our solutions, with ecosystem partners, working together with the customer, pilot that in one customer, and then we are able to scale that across more customers in the same vertical, and I believe across multiple customers across verticals. A short update on the demerger of the Siemens Energy business. You're aware that we recently got shareholder and creditor approval. This process is on track, and we hope to complete the demerger and the listing in the calendar year 2025. With that, I'd like to hand over to Wolfgang to dive deeper into the financial highlights for the last quarter as also for the last financial year. Over to you, Wolfgang. Okay. Thank you, Sunil. So good morning from my side as well.
Today, I will give you an update on our financial performance in fiscal year 24 and our Q4 of this fiscal year as well. I will give you an overview of the overall performance first, and we'll then go into the four major businesses: Digital Industries, Smart Infrastructure, Mobility, and finally, Siemens Energy. I will start with the KPIs for fiscal year 24. We can look back to a successful year 24. New orders grew 13.8%, excluding the large locomotive orders signed and booked in fiscal year 23. Major orders in our energy and mobility business, as well as a solid order performance in Smart Infrastructure, have contributed to the growth of almost 14% in fiscal year 24. Revenue is also up by 14.4% versus prior year, with double-digit growth rates in all businesses except Digital Industries.
Our digital industries business is still facing headwinds after the high order volumes during the supply chain crisis as a result of the semiconductor shortage and the still ongoing destocking at our customers. We continue to strive for flawless executions of our projects to maintain the high level of customer satisfaction, and we have been able to turn orders of the past quarters into profitable revenue. Our export business has slightly increased from 15.4% to 15.6%, so no major shift from domestic to export. Also, our business mix, comparing project versus product and service business, is pretty much unchanged. Project business decreased slightly from 30.6% to 30.4%. Our EBITDA is at 13.7% versus 12.7% in fiscal year 2023, so an increase by 100 basis points. On a comparable basis, by excluding impacts from FX and commodity hedging, our EBITDA margin improved by 120 basis points from 12.4% to 13.6%.
Our profit before tax stands at 17.4%, and our profit after tax is at 13.2% for the full fiscal year. As a reference point, our profit before tax in 2023 was 14.4%, and the profit after tax was 10.8%. So a few comments on our profitability expansion. The major reason for the expansion, higher volumes, a favorable portfolio mix, and better pricing had a positive impact of almost INR 10 billion. This was offset by cost increases of approximately INR 4.7 billion on account of merit increase, additional headcount, and other costs, including FX and commodity losses. We also generated profits on sale of properties of INR 2.6 billion, positive, and there was an increase in income from interest and dividend by INR 1.9 billion.
But not only on the profit side, we also have seen progress in our cash generation and finished the year with cash from operations of INR 21.6 billion, so an increase of INR 2.3 billion versus prior year. Our continuous focus on working capital, especially inventory optimization and cash collections, as well as our increase in profit, has been driving this positive development. Overall, solid results in fiscal year 2024 and another proof point of our successful journey in India. Now, briefly on Q4. Q4 2024 was also a very successful quarter. We had a very strong finish in Q4 with new orders growing almost 21%, again excluding impacts from the large locomotive order we booked in Q2 last year. And all four major businesses have contributed by at least double-digit growth. Looking at revenue, revenue grew by 11.3% versus prior year Q4.
Also, all four businesses contributing to the revenue growth as well. EBITDA was at 14.6%, up versus 11.9% in Q4 of fiscal year 2023, an expansion of 270 basis points. As already mentioned, volume increase, a positive product and business mix, and price enforcement, as well as an accrual release in one of our businesses, have contributed to the margin expansion. Profit before tax is at 17.6%, profit after tax at 13.1%, also representing a significant increase versus prior year, and our earnings per share in Q4 is at INR 21.8, so briefly, new orders, three strong quarters around and above INR 60 billion per quarter have contributed to a total of INR 235.6 of new orders, increasing our order backlog to INR 483 billion.
As already said, a few larger orders in our energy and mobility business and also a stable product and service business have contributed to the solid performance. In Q4, we have been able to grow our orders by 21% versus prior year. And coming next to revenue, with an all-time high in Q4 revenue at INR 58.9, we finished the fiscal year with a total revenue of more than INR 200 billion, growing by 14.4% versus prior year, and 11.3% in Q4 on tough comps. Our product and service business, as well as stringent execution in our project business, have contributed to our positive revenue development. Our book-to-bill for the full fiscal year is 1.13, excluding the locomotive order. Next, our EBITDA in Q4 reached 14.6%, after already 15% in a very strong Q2 and 12.9% in Q3, driven by solid project execution in our mobility and energy business.
Revenue increase and product mix have contributed as well. Excluding FX and commodity hedging, our EBITDA margin is at 13.6% compared to 12.4% in fiscal year 2023. Overall, in fiscal year 2024, the EBITDA as a percentage of revenue was strong at over 13%. Before we move to the respective businesses, I would like to provide an update on CAPEX. In fiscal year 2024, we spent CAPEX of around INR 3.2 billion. As you are certainly aware, we recently announced an additional investment of INR 1 billion end of November for the capacity expansion of our power transformer factory at Kalwa. This is for expanding the range of its product portfolio to include large reactors. The overall CAPEX investment across segments is now expected to be around INR 11 billion over the next two to three years.
So now, let me go into the four major businesses, and starting with digital industries. In general, I would say the market environment is okay, and we do see positive developments in some of the verticals we are in. But we are still challenged with ongoing destocking in our customers in the automation business. This is also reflected in our new orders. From Q1 until Q3, we have seen a stable order booking, while Q4 was muted. We booked new orders of INR 7.6 billion. Nevertheless, an increase of almost 22% versus prior year. On a full fiscal year basis, our orders declined by 10.6% to a total of INR 33.6 billion. Looking at revenue in Q4, revenue grew by 10.6% to a total of INR 10.1 billion.
Our revenue for the full fiscal year grew by 15.7% to INR almost 40 billion due to a strong order backlog from the advanced ordering in fiscal year 2022 and fiscal year 2023, so EBITDA margin dropped due to the muted market environment, resulting in strong price pressure and unfavorable product mix. The reported margin in fiscal year 2024 dropped from 15.4% to 12.9%, so 250 basis points. If we eliminate the impact of FX and commodity hedging, we do see a margin decline of 120 basis points from 14.3% to 13.1%. Again, price negative mix effects and also cost increases are the main drivers, despite higher revenue. Now, moving on to smart infrastructure. In our smart infrastructure business, we do see a different picture, supported by a positive market environment, especially in the area of electrification and building products.
In Q4, we booked orders of INR 17.5 billion, a 33% growth versus prior year. In fiscal year 2024, in total, we grew by almost 12% to INR 73.3 billion. Revenue reached INR 64 billion in fiscal year 2024, representing a growth of 19% versus prior year. We can also see the steady development of revenue quarter over quarter. We are successfully turning orders and backlog into profitable business. And also, we finished fiscal year 2024 strong with revenue of INR 17.5 billion in Q4. Product and business mix, price realization, and higher revenue are the main drivers for our EBITDA of 15.6%, a total of 200 basis points up versus prior year. In Q4, we reached also 15.6%, up 150 basis points versus Q4 prior year, with 100 basis points positive impact from FX and commodity hedging. The next business is our mobility business.
With a strong book-to-bill of 1.15, we continue to add to our already strong order backlog. In fiscal year 2024, we booked orders of INR 31.2 billion, a plus of 21% if we exclude the large locomotive order in fiscal year 2023. Q4 also was very strong with INR 11 billion, resulting in 243% growth versus Q4 of prior year. Orders in the area of metro projects, electrification and signaling, as well as export business, contributed to the positive development. On the revenue side in our mobility business, we finished at INR 27.2 billion, up 38% versus prior year. In Q4, we booked revenue of INR 8.3 billion, the highest quarter in the last two years. We continue to generate revenue from robust project execution.
In Q4, our EBITDA went up by 590 basis points to 8%, resulting in a fiscal year EBITDA of 6.4%, up 290 basis points versus prior year. If we exclude FX and commodity hedging, profitability went up by 290 basis points and in Q4 by 510. Main reasons for the positive development of our profitability are revenue increase, B mix, and C lower R&D spend. So also in the mobility business, a very positive development. Last but not least, I will discuss the energy business, which will be demerged in calendar year 25. Also, supported by a very positive market environment driven by the ongoing energy transition, we booked orders of a total INR 88 billion in fiscal year 24 and thereof 23.3 in Q4. Fiscal year growth is at 30%, while Q4 was at 15%.
We won a couple of major orders in fiscal year 24, the majority in the grid technology business, oil and gas business, and the steam turbine order. Our Book-to-Bill in Q4 was 1.14 and for the fiscal year 1.4, adding more to our already high order backlog. Revenue grew by 5% to INR 62.8 in fiscal year 24, with a strong revenue performance in Q4. Revenue in Q4 grew by 12% due to project-related revenue recognition. Finally, EBITDA continues to be strong. Our reported profitability reached 15.7 for the fiscal year, up by 300 basis points in fiscal year 24, positively impacted by an accrual release of 110 basis points booked in Q4. EBITDA without FX and commodity hedging is at 15.4 for the full fiscal year, so with this, I come to my final slide.
With the demerger of our energy business, we are creating two strong and independent companies, Siemens Energy India Limited and Siemens Limited, with three core businesses: digital industries, smart infrastructure, and mobility. Both companies are very well prepared for the future growth, focusing on their relevant markets. Significant order backlog for both companies, robust growth in orders and revenue over the past years, and a very solid profitability are very good basis for future successes. With this, let me hand it over to Sunil for closing remarks. Thank you, Wolfgang. Maybe just to summarize, we continue to be very confident in India's growth story. We believe the current slowdown is probably a strong word, but the current position is more cyclical rather than structural. The structural story of India is still very, very strong. I'd like to reiterate that was reflected in our robust performance in 2024.
Our focus now shifts to being very clearly a one technology company, with Siemens Xcelerator being at the center of that. And this is what we will use to expand what we were doing, which was basically going out and delivering products and solutions that were available with us in each of our individual businesses, to adding on top of that products and solutions that we can actually deliver to customers across our businesses so that we get the maximum synergy within the company. We've announced investments in May last year and in November 2024 as well. And those investments are on track. We've announced it in Siemens Energy, in Siemens Mobility business, as well as in the Smart Infrastructure business. And these investments are on track, and we will continue to invest as and when we see the need for it.
Finally, our energy business demerger is on track. We expect to conclude this in the next calendar year. So with that, we are through with our presentation. Thank you very much. We hand it now back for questions and answers. Radhika, do you want to take over?
Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Sunil. So as I said earlier, if you wish to ask a question, you can raise your hand, and we will unmute you from our end, and then you can unmute from your end. So the first question is from Parikshit Kandpal from HDFC Securities. We have unmuted you. You can go ahead, please.
Hi, Mr. Mathur. Am I audible? Yes, you are, Parikshit. Go ahead. Yes, sir. So congratulations on a decent quarter, sir. So my first question is on the HVDC.
So I just want you to understand for us as a place, so we have both the technologies, right, LCC and VSC. So are we bidding for these projects? I mean, two large orders have been tendered and kind of awarded. One is awarded, and one is getting finalized. So have we participated in these tenders? What's our view on the entire HVDC thing? I mean, is there a play for us here?
So Parikshit, I will not comment on running tenders right now. But what is important for you to know is we are not participating in LCC technology in India or indeed anywhere in Siemens globally. We believe very strongly in the VSC technology. So we will participate in the VSC technology projects that emerge. We believe this is a technology which is superior and is being adopted around the world as well.
We have the capabilities to do that. We continue to build up capabilities for that in India, not only for the local demand, but also providing out-of-India support for global projects on engineering and commissioning and so on. So simple answer, we are not present in LCC. We are present in VSC technologies. Okay. Thank you, sir. So my second question is on the demerger now. So it'll be a mirror demerger. So what happens to the cross-holding of the promoter shareholding, so Siemens Energy? And so will that trigger any sell-off? Will you look at reducing stake, or are you looking to do like status quo or some swap between the two entities? So how are you looking at the shareholding post-listing of the Siemens Energy in India? So I think what I can do is basically I can't speak on behalf of the parents, as you rightly said.
Post-demerger, both companies will have identical holdings, but all I can do is quote what we said in our November 23 disclosure, where we said subsequent to the proposed demerger, the parties to the shareholder agreements, that is, the promoters of Siemens Limited, they have agreed to certain procedures to enable Siemens Energy AG to acquire a majority share in the newly listed entity containing Siemens Limited's energy business, so I can't speak about time. I can't speak about quantum. We are not privy to that information. All I can quote is what they have said in their global disclosures as well, which we have repeated.
Okay, sir. Thank you. Those were my questions. I'll join the queue. Thank you.
Thanks, Parikshit.
Thank you. The next question is from Harshit Patel from Equirus. We have unmuted you. Please go ahead.
Harshit, please go ahead. You're on mute.
Harshit, you have to unmute at your end. Okay. I think we'll switch to another question. We have the next question from Arafat Syed from InCred. Arafat, please go ahead. Arafat, you're on mute. Arafat, you'll have to unmute at your end. Okay. So we'll have the next question from Jonas Bhutta from Aditya Birla Capital. Jonas, you want to go ahead?
Am I audible? Yes, you are, Jonas. Please go ahead. Yeah. Congratulations on a great set of numbers, sir, and advance greetings for the new year. Sir, two questions. First, if we see the order book of the ex-energy business, that's largely flat. And within that, also if I remove the large loca order, then probably we are looking at a 9%-10% growth in the order book.
How does this read in terms of growth prospects for the coming financial year, given that we are sitting on a book that is just about 10% higher and in a scenario where digital industries, which was the growth driver in the last maybe three years, is sort of still not recovered? So if at all we have to think of a scenario of a higher order inflow or an order book exiting FY25, out of the three segments, which one would you sort of be most bullish on from a 12-month perspective? That's the first question.
So Jonas, just to answer that, the order book is not flat when you consider that. Are you talking about 378 versus 382? Yes, sir. Right? The 378 includes 263 of the locomotive order. So if you take 263 out from 378, right, that's 115 going up to 382.
So the order book is INR 382 billion,
which will also have the INR 263 billion, right?
Sorry? No, the INR 382 billion doesn't have the locomotive. Sorry? Order book is there, so it will be there, INR 263 billion. New orders. Are you looking at the new orders or at the order book? You're looking at the order book.
Yes, sir. It will be.
Maybe I can step in here. I believe overall, the order book is growing, but you also have to consider, on one hand, we do see significant new orders growth, which is around 14%. Then we also see significant revenue growth. More or less, we book orders and we turn them into revenue. This is going to continue. If you look at the book-to-bill, the book-to-bill is above one, which means we always create or add to the new order book.
From this perspective, I believe the future. I'm not afraid of the future with regards to orders or revenue. I believe everything is intact. We also see a positive market environment in the Smart Infrastructure business. We also expect recovery on the Digital Industries market.
The electrification—exactly. The electrification business, as we said, is doing very well. The Smart Infrastructure business is growing. Mobility is also growing. The number of orders coming in for electrification, signaling, and Vande Bharat, locomotives, bogies, metros—this is a growing market, as I mentioned in my presentation. Digital Industries is a little bit muted right now, as Wolfgang pointed out. When private sector investment picks up, this business will pick up as well. When the destocking of the inventory reaches its bottom, which we expect in the next couple of quarters, that will pick up as well.
So effectively, the ex-Energy business, I think we have got three verticals that will be firing on all cylinders there.
Got it. So my second question was if you can update us on the local order itself in terms of progress and from which years would one expect it to show up materially in the revenue line. And did it have any role to play on the margin side of mobility this year? As in, was it a drag, a criterion? If you can just update that. And then I have one bookkeeping question.
Okay. So as I mentioned, the first local will go out in the latter part of 2025. But this project and Wolfgang, you need to expand on that, please. This project is under the POC system of accounting. So basically, as the costs come in, the revenue is recognized there as well.
This project is being executed over a period of 11 years. As the costs come in, revenue recognition will take place. Anything to add to that, Wolfgang?
No, as you said, with the progress of this project, we will recognize revenue, and you will see then the respective revenue growth also in our books.
Understood. And lastly, if you, Wolfgang, can give us what was the order intake for just the CNS piece? And when you declared this order intake in the slide for the smart infra business, which is INR 73-odd billion rupees, is it consolidated for CNS, or we have to layer it up for CNS? Yeah.
So the numbers I have shown today is Siemens Limited standalone. So CNS electric business is not included in these numbers.
So if you can provide us the order intake for the year for CNS, that will be helpful.
My final question. Thank you.
The order intake for CNS Electric in fiscal year 2024 was INR 18.2 billion, up by 9% versus prior year. The revenue was INR 16.9 billion, up 13.3% versus prior year.
Perfect. Thank you, and all the best.
Thank you so much.
Thank you. We go back to Harshit. Harshit Patel from Equirus. Can you go ahead?
I'm audible? Yeah, yeah. We can hear you. Yes, I can hear you. Please go ahead. Thank you. My first question is on the Digital Industries segment. What part are we playing in the upcoming semiconductor foundries as well as OSAT units in India? Are the automation solutions for these provided by us, or will they be directly done by the parent company? Also, are there any active discussions or orders booked with any of the potential customers over here?
Harshit, good question.
Yes, we do the automation for this business, for the fab part of it as well. We are in discussions around the OSAT as well. We have already started getting orders. And by we, I mean Siemens Limited has already got some orders from customers around this business. So yes, we do not only the automation, but also the software design for the manufacturing process. Understood, sir. Secondly, Altair Engineering has been a significant addition to our DI portfolio globally. So is there any way it helps our India software and simulation portfolio in the immediate future? Also, what is the revenue contribution of these software and related offerings within our DI segment at the moment? I am asking this because its contribution in the global DI segment that is increasing at a rapid pace, and it is also impacting the margins very favorably at the global level. Yeah.
So, Harshit, Altair, the acquisition, as you know, has just recently been closed or is under closure right now. It's just been announced. The closure has not yet happened. So we are not yet completely into the details of what the implications of that will be for Siemens in India. So that's the first thing. The important part is, from a Siemens perspective, Altair provides simulation for non-linear technologies there. And I'm sure there will be a benefit to us with it. It makes Siemens globally really one of the top two or three players in the world in the area of simulation technologies. From an India perspective, from a Siemens Limited perspective, we don't know more than that. And I can't tell you the implications of what Altair will be for Siemens Limited moving forward. We will have to see.
As and when something happens, we will keep you informed. Software business, a lot of the software business is done through licensing through Siemens Software Company outside of Siemens Limited. But we work closely together with them. There is also software business that we do within Siemens Limited, which is project-based as well and depends on solutions that are required by the end customer. We do not track software separately. It runs as a horizontal across all three of our businesses: Digital Industries, Smart Infrastructure, and Mobility. But you've already seen an increase in profitability. If you look at the profitability growth of our Digital Industries business, indeed, also of our Smart Infrastructure business, over the last couple of years, you will see that there has already been a growth in the profitability there. An element of that is definitely software.
That's good, sir. That was all from my side.
Thank you very much for answering my question.
Thank you, Harshit.
Thank you. The next question is from Subhadip Mitra from Nuvama. Please go ahead. Good morning, and thank you for the opportunity.
I hope I'm audible.
Yes, you are, Subhadip. Please go ahead.
Perfect. Thanks. So two questions from my side. You did give us a lot of details on the HVDC side. So what I wanted to understand is, beyond the current two HVDCs that are under tendering, we understand that there could be three or four more which could come over the next, let's say, two years or so. Are any of these already planned on VSC technology? And secondly, on the export side with regard to component exports on HVDC to parent, is there already a large visible pipeline that is there at the parent level?
And that gives you a lot more visibility on that front as well.
So currently, Subhadip, most of the projects are using the LCC technology. And therefore, that is the technology that we are not working with. On the VSC technology, as I mentioned, on the HVDC, right now, the numbers are not material in terms of the export support that we give to the parent company. They are a part of the Siemens Energy segment there. But there are clear plans in place to build up the engineering competency here as well as the commissioning competency out of Siemens Energy in India. And over the next couple of quarters and years, you will see that impacting the numbers of Siemens Energy in India.
Okay. Understood.
Secondly, on the mobility side, in terms of the larger, chunkier orders that were expected on the low-cost front, whether it was the 6,000 HP push-pull order or the 12,000 HP, as well as on the Vande Bharat orders and metros, if you can give us some color as to how that TAM is panning out, because since elections, there seems to be some bit of a slowdown in terms of those big bang, large orders that were to come.
I think you're right over there. So the 6,000 HP, we have not seen the tenders for the 6,000 HP or 12,000 HP orders. Vande Bharat tenders are coming out. There are a couple of passenger train tenders that are coming out over there. But you're right, the large big ones have not come out yet in terms of the local.
The 6,000 HP local has not been tendered, neither has the 12,000 HP local.
Understood. But is there any, because what we understand is Indian Railways had already put out their larger plan that there is a requirement of, let's say, 1,100-1,200 electric locals on an annual basis in order to replace existing locomotives, etc. So clearly, over a period of, let's say, the next two to three years, it will be a requirement for Indian Railways to procure these locomotives. So do you see most of these manufacturing, again, shifting back to the railways' own coach factories? Or is there still a good visibility that these will pan out over the next, let's say, two to three years?
So I don't know the answer to that, Subhadip. To be honest, we will have to wait and see what gets tendered.
As of now, it is still on our radar screen. We will have to just wait and see what decisions the railways take in terms of how much they want to do themselves and how much they want to tender out. The 12,000 HP, they do not have the technologies for, but the 6,000, they do. So there is a possibility that they could do it themselves. But right now, we do not have that transparency.
I understand. Lastly, on the metros front, as well as the export orders for mobility, because I believe when the global CEO had visited India a few months back, he had put a lot of focus on making India the local or the regional hub for exports for the mobility business. So on that front, for metros as well as exports, do you see a large visibility panning out over the next two years?
Yes. So exports is increasing very clearly. As you're probably aware, we did the first large export order for bogies to Bucharest in Hungary. That order is now concluded. We're expecting further orders also for bogies. The metro, we announced the building of the factory, which will take another year, year and a half. But when that is up, the idea to build the factory was primarily to serve not only the Indian market requirements, but also the global requirements there. So absolutely, we are exporting on bogies. We do export our propulsion equipment as well. The intent of building the metro factory is also for export. So increasingly, India will become a major player in the overall manufacturing network of Siemens Mobility.
Understood. Thank you so much. That's it from my side.
Thank you, Subhadip. The next question is from Bhavin Vithlani from SBI Mutual Fund.
Bhavin, you may unmute yourself and go ahead.
Good afternoon, gentlemen. Hope I'm audible. Yes, you are. Please go ahead. Okay. So my question, first question is on the margins, and I'm taking a slightly longer-term series on the margins. So the part A is on the energy, where we have seen margins hovering between 10% and 12% prior to 2023 to, if I take 2014 to 2023. We have seen a very strong increase here to 15 and a half, 15.7. So what part of this, in your view, is driven by the bunching up of the business, and what, in your view, is sustainable? Because we have seen cyclicality and supply catches up in this segment pretty fast.
The part two of the margins is the ex-energy segment, where some parts of the segments we have seen margins move up steadily, like Smart Infrastructure, as well as the Digital Industries over a longer period of time, and variability in Mobility. The question here is, how should one think about the margins in the ex-energy piece on a sustainable basis? Because what I understand is Smart Infrastructure is a piece is a very closely guarded market with a couple of MNCs. Digital Industries has a lot of impact on the increase in the installed base. As your installed base goes up, the margins come with a lag. So if you can give us a little longer-term picture on the margin trajectory of the energy and ex-energy piece, that will be more helpful.
So I think the Wolfgang has already spoken about the energy margins over there as outlined that against the 15.7% margin that is there, there's about 3% of one-time impacts in there. So let's say the underlying would probably be in the range of 12.5%. I also mentioned to you that transmission business is growing, and that is filling our factories. We are increasingly investing in the Siemens Energy business. We announced the investment in the large-power transformers. A lot of that will be used for export business. The local domestic market is growing as well. So I believe the underlying margins for Siemens Energy will continue to be strong. If I move on to the DI business, the digital industries business, there, as you rightly mentioned, the margins have increased over the last couple of years as well.
Our intent is that they continue to grow as we bring in greater offerings. This is not only about installed base. This is also about bringing in factory automation, motion control businesses, linking that in with the energy efficiency solutions that we have. This goes back to the one tech company, which will effectively increase the margins because we are able to bring in a combined offering for the customer, which earlier on was served either only by the Digital Industries business or only by the Smart Infrastructure business. Now we are able to bring in combined offerings. So our expectation is that in the medium-long term, we would like to see margin expansion happening on the Digital Industries business as well. Smart Infrastructure, also, you're right, electrification will continue to be a focus area, particularly in the discoms as we get more renewable energy entering the grid.
You will need stability over there. There will be the need for SCADA systems coming in. There will be the need for greater electrification, energy efficiency solutions. As commercial buildings increase, and we are seeing that substantially happening right now, the need for electrification will increase there as well. When I look at private industry, food and beverage, for example, and this is going back to my earlier point of one tech, there is a very large energy efficiency story in food and beverage. They've got a large requirement for air conditioning. They have a large requirement for energy efficiency happening within their premises. And you couple that with our automation solutions that we have got and with our software solutions, that adds a scope on for them as well.
So here again, for smart infrastructure, I expect a growth in the margins moving forward as the volumes increase and as the market continues to grow there. Finally, on the mobility segment, the margins are currently, let's say, lower than the other businesses, coming primarily out of the fact that we are doing heavy investments over there. And those investments, as and when they come up and we start commercial production, we expect that the margins in the mobility segment will pick up as well. So I think put that all together, and we are entering new businesses in the mobility area with the metro business, with signaling, and so on. So as we look forward, I would really be driving for growth in the top line, but also driving for growth in the bottom line in all our segments. Okay.
My second question is on the DI piece, on the growth piece part of it. And when I look at some of your peer sets like Honeywell and ABB in the relevant segments, also the performance has been muted. But when we go and visit factories, the small and medium scale, the intensity of what to automate and what they are automating is considerably higher. And so when I see the performance, actually, it kind of confuses me. So on a little longer term, leaving out some of the idiosyncrasies that could be there because of these lockdowns, etc., is the underlying growth in this segment possibly in the high 20s? Your thoughts on it?
So look, the industrial segment, the industrial business is driven primarily by the large and medium companies.
The small-scale companies, there's a huge opportunity there, but a lot of it is driven by demand as well. Now, currently, we are running at 75%-80% capacity utilizations in the country. The runway is still not particularly visible to most private sector players, and therefore, they are being hesitant in CAPEX expansions. There is absolutely no doubt that they will need to go in for automation and digitalization solutions as and when they scale up. But currently, the market, as you're aware, is relatively muted on private CAPEX. I expect that this will change in the next couple of quarters. The government is already focusing on areas. Right now, the PLI scheme is showing results on the new tech businesses that they are supporting there. But as I mentioned earlier, the traditional verticals are not really spending on CAPEX at this point in time.
Moving forward, as and when this segment grows, it will start feeding in terms of automation and digitalization, not only the large companies, but also the entire supply chains that are feeding into these companies. And that's when I see a huge growth potential for the private sector CAPEX players or industries in the area of the digital industries business.
Does that answer your question?
Just to follow up, does the inquiry book give you confidence of a significant pickup in the next couple of quarters, as you highlighted?
Currently, not. Okay. Currently, not. Yeah.
Those are my questions. Okay. Yeah. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from Rahul Gajare from Haitong. Rahul?
My first question is a continuation of an earlier participant on the mobility business.
Now, when you had received this order for locomotive, I think the timeline for execution indicated that you were expected to deliver five locomotives in FY24. Now, you just indicated that the first loco is expected to be delivered only in FY25. Does this mean that the overall execution of the entire project could be delayed beyond FY34, maybe by one year? And if there is any penalty clause for any delay beyond FY34? That's my first question.
We did not say that we will deliver the first five locomotives in 24, right? The schedule was to start delivering it in 25. We are on track. Please be aware, this is an 11-year project. It is too early to start talking right now about delays in the project, right? So the journey has started. Suffice it to say we are on track. Yeah.
And it's too early to talk about penalties and LDs on an 11-year project.
Okay. Got it. My second question is, you have a long CapEx plan of almost INR 11 billion over the next two to three years. I want to understand if you can lay out where specifically this money is going to be spent on, and if you can actually further classify it, how much of that could actually be spent on Siemens Energy and Siemens India, given we are looking at global shortage of transformers. So just want to understand this INR 11 billion breakdown.
So this has already been disclosed at various points in time. But for your benefit, the Siemens Energy part is about INR 4.6 billion that has been announced. The smart infrastructure is another INR 4 billion, and the mobility segment is about INR 2 billion. So we are looking at roughly INR 11 billion over there.
Okay. So this is all the announcement. This INR 11 billion is not additional CAPEX. That's something which I wanted to clarify.
No, no. If I was doing INR 11 billion, I would have been forced to disclose it.
Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much.
Thank you. The next question is from Aditya Mongia from Kotak Securities. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the opportunity, everyone. My question was more focused from the perspective of exports for the energy business. Could you talk us through prospects of growing both geographically as well as from a product or service perspective in the export segment for the energy business for the next three years?
So I think I mentioned it earlier as well. Part of the exports is on the transformer side. There's a huge demand globally for transformers, as also in India for transformers.
So that is one of the reasons for building an additional factory for expanding. So transformers on the energy side is definitely one area. We are looking also at the, and this is not only, this is also for the VSC technology HVDC projects that we have there. So that's one large area. We're exporting our steam turbines as well out of our Baroda factory, which are used for exports over there. We are exporting switchgear. So effectively, we are, I think, supplying to Southeast Asia, South America, and parts of Europe as well.
Understood. So there should not be any changes in the mandates, or are there prospects of you kind of getting some global mandates from a geographical perspective? And that was the side question of this one.
No, I think there's no change in the mandate post-demerger. If anything, the mandate will be strengthened post-demerger.
Understood.
The second question was kind of picking off from an earlier participant. As in, when you talk about DI, as in there's a product angle and there's an automation angle, what can drive growth? Just wanted to get a sense of how to kind of think through. As in today, as we think through DI, is this more product-driven kind of purposes, which means automation can only add to as much growth? And when do you see that changing? You talked about supply chain becoming part of the TAM. So just some more thoughts would be useful for us to understand when does the automation part start becoming heavy in that portfolio?
I think the automation will become heavy as private sector investment picks up very clearly. Right now, private sector, I've said that repeatedly, has not yet reached its full potential. Automation is definitely part of it.
It is product business, but it is not only product business. It is also integration of products. It is also providing solutions. So the spray drying example that I gave you is not only plain automation. It is combining automation with software as well and bringing a complete solution to the customer. The example that we gave you on cybersecurity in the manufacturing space is another area. There's also companies are turning around, and we've done work for steel companies asking, "Can you find a solution for us for improving our logistics in plant logistics?" Right? So this is not only providing plain automation.
This is actually planning out the entire logistics process of a company and looking at the entire possibilities of automation, but also of digitalization through gaining greater transparency out of digital solutions that we are able to provide partly ourselves and partly also with the other Siemens software company in India. Got that.
Those are my questions. Thank you for the responses.
Thank you. We have the next question from Renu Baid from IIFL. Am I audible? Yes.
Hi, Renu.
Yeah, hi. Good afternoon, sir, and thanks for the opportunity. First question is to understand a bit more on the export side. Can you share what was the share of exports in mobility and energy portfolio for us for last year? And specifically for the mobility business, where is Siemens with respect to PQs for large international projects for metros and bogies
And how large can this portfolio be over the next three to five years? Reason for asking is if you see most of the unlisted peers, global peers on the mobility side earn the larger share of profit from the export business. So will that also roll out the roadmap for our mobility business moving from mid-single-digit margins to double-digit as exports scale up? That's the first question.
So Renu, I think I answered that question earlier on. Our intention is very clear to increase the export content. It's also been strategically indicated by our global CEO to make India a manufacturing hub for not only the Indian business, but also for the global business. Bogies, I gave the example. We've already started exporting. I can't give you the numbers of percentage of exports separately for Siemens Energy or for Siemens Mobility.
We are not doing that at a segmental level. But the focus is very clear in the mobility business to serve not only the local business, but also the global business. Reality is the business case for setting up a factory, for example, comes only when you are able to combine the local and the global synergies over there. On the bogies, we already got the order, as I mentioned earlier, from Hungary, Bucharest for bogies that we delivered in the last financial year. We are expecting additional orders coming in as well for exports. Metros, as in when the factory is built, it will be used for export projects. First, we will gain experience out of export projects first before addressing the cost base for the Indian projects. So I think our strategy is, in a way, similar to the strategy of the other large players.
I mean, there are only a handful of large players in the mobility space. So our strategy will be very, very similar to that. And what would be the share of exports today in the energy portfolio? I don't have it offhand, Renu. We haven't disclosed that in energy or at a segmental level.
Sure. So just coming back on the energy part of the business, while order flows, outlook, everything is pretty healthy. So this year's 5% revenue growth, was it largely because of capacity constraints? Or there were other bottlenecks also which constrained the overall revenue growth?
I think it's a mixture of multiple things. I don't think it was capacity constraints only. I think it is also delay in offtake by customers who are delaying offtake for various reasons. And as you know, most of the revenue comes out of the backlog in energy, right?
It's just the nature of the business. And therefore, part of it is delays by customers in offtaking. Part of it is project delays, probably by customers as well. And part of it is just the normal delivery schedules that are linked to the order inflows that we have received.
Maybe I can add to this. Renu, when you look at the quarterly slices of revenue, you can see that last year in Q4, we had also a tremendous quarter with almost over INR 18 billion in revenue, which also then Q1 was a little bit muted from a revenue perspective. And then we picked up again. So I believe it's kind of a pattern we see. And overall, I believe the revenue development is pretty nice. A large part of this revenue comes out of backlog.
Correct. So that will catch up in fiscal 2025 then.
So not an issue. Yeah. And lastly, you did touch upon this that for the core Siemens business, ex-Energy, there will be focus to improve profitability. But if we see the portfolio, the mix, the pluses and minuses, broadly margins currently are in 12.5%-13% range. So in your view, can these margins be in mid-teens level over the next two to three years, given the tailwinds on the mix, on the end market demand, and considering the effects and other impact that you have seen in the near term? Or you think mid-teens margins for the core business could be a bit of stretch until the mobility inches close to double-digit margins?
So Renu, you've been following us for a long time. You've seen the growth in the margins of the business here.
And you've seen how it's picked up in the last couple of years once the economy picked up as well. Our intent is very clear as management. I've been talking as long as I've been around about profitable growth. And our intent as management is to grow the top line and grow the bottom line as well. Got it.
Thanks, sir, and best wishes for the next year. Thank you.
Thank you, Renu.
Thank you.
We'll have one last question from Janam Jain from ICICI Securities. Janam, you can go ahead.
Hello.
Yeah. We can hear you. Go ahead. Yeah.
You can hear me? Right. Okay. So congratulations to the management on the great quarter. So sir, my first question is, are we hearing about any upcoming new orders for locomotive business?
Currently, nothing on the horizon.
Well, that answers my question. Thank you.
Okay. Thank you.
So that was the last question. Thank you, everyone, for joining us today and wish you a happy festive season and a happy new year. Thank you.
Thank you very much. And all the best for a very happy year ahead. Look forward to touching base with you in the new year.
Thank you. The same.