Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to Tube Investments Q4 FY 2021 conference call hosted by IIFL Capital Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Anupam Gupta from IIFL Capital Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thanks, Aisha. Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the post-results conference call for Tube Investments. It's my pleasure to have the leadership team from Tube Investments joining us for the call, including Mr. Vellayan Subbiah, our Managing Director; Mr. M. M. Murugappan, our Chairman; Mr. Mukesh Ahuja, who heads the Tube Business; Mr. K. R. Srinivasan, who heads the Metal Forming Business; Mr. Kalyan Kumar Paul, heading the Cycles Business; and Mr. K. Mahendra Kumar, who is the CFO, along with his finance team. I'll hand it over to Mr. Vellayan for the opening comments and the Q&A thereafter. Over to you, sir.
Thanks, Anupam. Thanks a lot, and good morning, everybody. Overall, the board met yesterday and approved the financial results for the quarter and year end 31st March 2021. This year it took us a bit longer. Usually, we close the quarter earlier, but this year it took us a bit longer because we had to wait for CG to complete their results. We had CG last week, and we're just finishing TI now. The board also declared an interim dividend of INR 2 per share, and the same was paid to shareholders in March 2021. We've recommended a final dividend of INR 1.50 per share for the financial year 2020/21. Revenue in the fourth quarter was at INR 1,480 crores compared with INR 935 crores in the same period last year.
Revenue for the year was at INR 4,256 crores, which is almost at the same levels as the previous year despite the pandemic impact during Q1. PBT for Q4 was at INR 175 crores, a growth of 62% over the Q4 last year. PBT before exceptional items for the year was INR 381 crores, which is lower by 9.5% versus the previous year. The ROIC before tax was at 31.5% compared with the 29% in the previous year same period. Free cash flow was at INR 533 crores, which is 195% of PAT. That's not obviously a normal and sustainable number. Our net debt was reduced from INR 149 crores in the previous year to a surplus of INR 10 crores in cash for the current year. There are two significant transactions around the free cash flow and net debt.
Net debt number also has the impact of both our capital raise and the expenses around the CG acquisition, which was INR 687.5 crores is what our outflow was. In terms of standalone results, we talked about most of the numbers, so we've covered that. In terms of the individual businesses, revenue for engineering was at INR 854 in the quarter versus INR 545 in the corresponding quarter previous year. The PBIT was INR 92 as against INR 75. That was a growth of 22%. Revenue for the full year was INR 2,317 crores versus INR 2,058 in the previous year, and PBIT was at INR 251 versus INR 264 in the same previous year. For the year ended March 2021, ROCE for the business was at 43% as against 40% in the previous year. Cycles and accessories division registered revenue of INR 301 crores during the quarter compared to INR 129 in the corresponding quarter of the previous year.
PBIT was at INR 17 crores compared to INR 6 crores in the corresponding quarter of the previous year. Revenue for the full year was at INR 847 crores versus INR 781 crores in the previous year, and PBIT was at INR 44 crores as against INR 26 crores in the previous year. For the year ended March 2021, the ROCE of the division improved to 62% compared to 15% in the previous year. The revenue for the quarter in Metal Forming Business was at INR 201 crores compared to INR 301 crores in the corresponding quarter. PBT was at INR 40 crores compared to INR 16 crores in the corresponding quarter of the previous year. Full year for Metal Forming Business was INR 1,274 crores compared to INR 1,399 crores, and PBIT was at INR 87 crores versus INR 123 crores. For the year ended March 2021, ROCE was at 22% versus 27% in the previous year. Obviously, our consolidated numbers will include the four-month period from CG.
For the quarter consolidated, we have a full quarter of consolidation with CG as well. For the quarter numbers, the consolidated revenue was at INR 273 as against INR 1,031 in the corresponding quarter, and PBT was at INR 237 as against INR 89 in the corresponding quarter previous year. For the whole year, revenues were INR 6,083 as against INR 4,750, and the PBT was at INR 454 versus INR 425. As we discussed before, the company has acquired a controlling stake in CG Power and Industrial Solutions. We currently hold 53% and with the option to subscribe with certain limits, we will subscribe to. We've got warrants, which will basically subscribe to 50% in the next 12 to 18 months. Shanthi Gears basically registered a revenue of INR 75 crores as against INR 43 crores in the corresponding quarter of the previous year.
PBT for the quarter was at INR 12 as against INR 0.5 in the corresponding quarter. Revenue for the full year was INR 224 versus INR 249. PBT for the year was at INR 26 crores as against INR 36 crores in the previous year. Commenting on the financial results, Mr. M.A. Arunachalam, also known as Mr. Arun Murugappan, who's the chairman of TII, said, "TII has closed the year with a healthy performance post revival of the economy from the first wave of the COVID-19 pandemic. The results are encouraging considering the company had lost almost one full quarter of operations. We are hopeful that with the government's constant endeavor in controlling the spread of the COVID-19 pandemic and efforts towards maintaining the momentum in economic activity, the impetus in our operations is likely to continue." Thank you. I will stop with that, Anupam, and happy to turn it over for questions.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the questions queue is ending. The first question is from the line of Vimal Pahuja from Union Asset Management Company. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity and congratulations, sir, on a very good set of numbers despite challenging conditions. Sir, my question is, firstly, I just missed on your comments on the working capital in the standalone business. We've seen the receivables increase quite sharply. Just wanted to check if this is a sustainable level. That's question number one. The second one would be, will we be able to pass on the commodity impact that we've seen this quarter in the next couple of quarters? Wanted to get an update there. Thirdly, I have some questions on the CG Power, if you wish to take during this call.
Yeah. First, I think obviously our preference is we don't want to make this into a CG call. At the right time, when some institutional coverage and other things start, we will start separate calls for CG. That's a quick take on CG. Otherwise, what tends to happen is all the questions become CG questions in the TI call, and that can make things a bit confusing. On the first thing, your question in terms of the working capital number, like I've mentioned, basically, this is not a sustainable level. We will go back into positive working capital overall for the company. What happened at the end of last quarter was a convergence of several different phenomenon that basically led to a negative working capital number. Your second question on passing on the steel price increases.
Yes, our belief is that for a majority of clients, we should be able to pass on, I would say, a majority of the steel price increases. Though, we continue to stay concerned that it is inflating at too high a level and will definitely have other effects. We continue to be quite concerned about the levels at which commodity prices are today.
Would it be fair to say that maybe a couple of quarters down the line, if at all commodities stop rallying here, in a hypothetical situation, you will be able to recoup your gross margins? This is for the standalone business.
Yes, that is our view.
Okay. Sir, if you can just comment on your newer initiatives like your lenses business or maybe your three-wheeler electric vehicle initiative that you took last quarter. Any sort of update there would be welcome. That's all from my side. Thank you.
Yeah. Like we've said, progress continues on those fronts. We have said, obviously things have been slightly delayed due to COVID-19. Our initial plan was to try and launch it in the fourth quarter of this financial year. We're still working towards those targets, but it might get pushed out because we've had several delays due to COVID-19 in this last quarter.
Very nice, sir. Thank you so much and all the very best.
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Satya from Celina Partners. Please go ahead.
Good morning, Vimal and team, and congratulations on a good set of numbers in challenging times.
Thanks, Satya. Thank you.
Yeah. Just a couple of questions. Firstly, we have been seeing very good growth in the Cycles division. Historically, this used to be a division where the growth aspirations from the management side itself were 5%-7%, which would include maybe 2% price growth and 5%-6% volume growth. Obviously, we've seen quite a heavy number this time. I remember you citing in earlier calls that the division head of cycles had an aspiration to be the best performing division, and we are already seeing some of those things pan out. I just wanted to check with you whether the growth expectations here going forward should be kind of looked at differently versus the way the division has panned out in the past.
Kashyap, obviously, like you said, we do see a lot of potential in it. Like you said, I'm going to let the division head of cycles answer this. K. K. Paul is on the line, so let him answer it. I think there's nothing like hearing it from him directly. Paul, can you just answer that question?
Yeah, I think we worked on a set of strategies that help us to get some sustainable competitive advantage, and that is what we are trying to build through our efforts. Some of those efforts we've executed, and some are under execution. That is one part. The other part also is the opportunities that are opening up with exports in the bicycle arena is also quite large. Therefore, we are looking at that in a far more concerted and aggressive fashion than what we've done in the past. We believe that'll additionally give us good growth opportunities and balance the degrees of the domestic growth. All in all, in a nutshell, I think you will see sustainable kind of performances in terms of trying to see how we can get up the volume. Yeah, there's a lot of work in process, but we're at it.
Thank you. Paul, just to extend that question was that if you can share qualitatively what exactly are we doing in terms of, is there a product mix change, is it exports? What exactly is the kind of growth?
There is lots of those initiatives. I think the first thing we did is we aligned our cost structure to the activity level. Therefore, that brought down the break-even substantially. That gave us the leverage that improved our competitive ability in the marketplace. That's point number one. Point number two is we also now embarking on looking at how to get the manufacturing piece on a make-to-order phenomenon, just as what you see in Toyota Production System and other places. That's the work that we are currently doing so that we are able to respond much faster to the marketplace. Third was that we rejigged the organization, gave enlarged responsibilities, worked around building capabilities of people.
The fourth was that we build an export structure and started focusing on different markets that we will do, build a long-term plan for exports and giving shape to that. There were these set of initiatives, and now we are working around with vendors to realign the supply chain towards this make-to-order principle, because they have to get aligned at the backward end. The fifth portion is that we're looking aggressively into the weaknesses that we historically had in our distribution system and correcting that and seeing that we are adequately represented both in depth. That means the number of dealers we have and their participation is defined as depth. Breadth is obviously very simple, the kind of coverage that we have geographically versus the universe of dealers available, so on and so forth.
The other piece which we are working on is our Track & Trail. That is our retail outlet franchises that we have. In terms of revising them from a service point of view, from an activity point of view, and from an ROI point of view. I think these are basically the things that we've done. Along the way, we also looked at what our brand stands for. We did some brand rationalization, bringing out a new brand purpose, engaging in the social milieu a lot now and building conversations around our brand, looking at e-com in a far larger way and succeeding in that effort in terms of taking up e-com sales and not conflicting it with the trade sales by having different product lines.
Briefly, I think this is all the work that we've done qualitatively, and some part of that is what you are seeing as a result. Of course, with COVID coming in, we had a first quarter washout, but the other quarters we were helped because the demand was much better. That also propelled us to do better.
That's helpful. Sorry, this last question comes in. While we see prices and definitely a bit of a concern, at the same time, wouldn't that be an opportunity from an export standpoint because Indian pricing is still at a discount to global pricing as far as India is concerned? When it comes to engineering exports, would it kind of open up the competitiveness further towards our favor? Will we be able to scale up exports much more than what we were thinking about earlier?
Yeah. Kashyap, that's a good question, and I will let Mukesh answer that. To summarize, Kashyap, on your last question. Just to summarize what Paul said. Basically, the first step that Paul's already done is to make the place extremely competitive. We made ourselves a lot more competitive by improving on the QCD dimensions like he talked about. We're still going to continue to invest a lot more to make ourselves even much more competitive there, like we told you with the Japanese and so a lot more investment to be done there. Given that, in Cycles he talked about four growth vectors. One is increasing domestic market share, the second is looking at mix. The third is export markets, and the fourth is new products and categories. Those are the fourth growth vectors that we're looking at.
That's why I think Paul is beginning to look at the business in a significantly different way that offers us more avenues for growth. That's actually to summarize the question on Cycles. The second question on engineering and exports, I'm going to ask Mukesh to answer that. Mukesh, can you take over?
Morning, Kashyap. Kashyap, your observation is right. Being that commodity price is still lower than the global commodity prices, India has an edge over it, and which will definitely lead to the more export revenues going forward than what we have planned. We need to also check it out whether it's sustainable. It is more important that we do not only depend on this. Our earlier work on product-specific category development is continuing, so that our participation level in the different geographies, in the different product segments globally can increase, leveraging our domestic experience.
Cool.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Aditya Bagul from Axis Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir, and team, congratulations on a really great set of numbers. Sir, my first question is in terms of our engineering business and metal forms. Just can you help us understand what are the interactions that you're having with OEMs and other suppliers to OEMs, tier-1 suppliers with regards to FY 2022? How do they see volume growth in that segment and as a consequence, the rub-off effect on us? If you can just give us some high-level view or understanding of that.
Yeah. Aditya, thanks for the question. I honestly say that things are slightly kind of mixed right now. Like we said, the outlook that they have is a bit unclear. People are at one level, very bullish, but second level, there seems to be quite a bit of apprehension in terms of what's going to happen. honestly, I'd say it's difficult right now to predict what is actually going to happen domestically because both schools seem to be prevalent at the same point in time. Which is why, like Mukesh said, on the engineering side, we've been a bit more focused on the export front. there is enough domestic demand also to drive the business right now. what we're also seeing in this environment is that the smaller players are having a tougher time to manage their supply chain.
See, basically because you're seeing commodity prices go up, people aren't sure how much inventory to hold because they're not sure what's going to happen to pricing. Getting supply from the steel guys is still kind of a challenge. There are a whole bunch of factors that are actually making it more difficult for the smaller guys to compete. Their working capital cycles are also getting locked up. I think that that's also helping us both in terms of engineering and in terms of metal products. Honestly, I don't think that the OEMs have a crystal ball or the capability to do that at this stage in time.
Fair enough. Thank you so much for your comment. Sir, my second question is with regards to our Q4 numbers. We've been more than positively surprised with the growth that we've seen, obviously in Cycles as Kashyap highlighted, but in engineering and metal forms as well. Just can you help us understand if you were to decompose this, how much of this would be purely on account of the commodity cost and how much would be the inherent volume growth separately to that?
Yeah. Aditya, the commodity cost passing on to the customers, as you know, going to take some time. There is always a lag of about three to six months.
Correct.
That piece is yet to come into Q4 numbers. Most probably it will come maybe Q4.
Not entirely, but most part.
Aditya, coming back to your question, a larger portion is driven by volume because part of what happened in Q4 is that everybody was running flat out.
Correct.
Now, kind of obviously, again, then we had kind of the same impact of a slowdown especially in April and May. In Q4 last year, everybody was running flat out, so that basically helped us significantly on the volume front as well.
Okay. As sir highlighted, I think what we're going to see is the impact of commodity cost coming in in Q1 and Q2.
Correct.
Fair enough. Sir, I understand that you don't want to discuss too much in terms of CG, I had one data point to ask. With regards to our exceptional number, in terms of exceptional items, there is a divergence. We've got INR 22 crores odd in our consolidated numbers for Q. When I look at CG's numbers, that number is quite high. I think it's closer to INR 280 crores. Can you just help me understand what is the divergence in that?
Sorry, come again?
No.
I say our exceptional items is INR 22 crores. Our exceptional items in TI's numbers, the standalone exceptional item is driven by the voluntary retirement scheme.
That is correct.
Okay.
No, sir. Even in the consolidated numbers-
You are asking for the exceptional items in CG's numbers, which are INR 280 crores, which has a whole variety of items in it. I think Aditya's question is, why hasn't that INR 280 shown up in TI's consolidated numbers?
It's four months.
Huh?
Because it is four months. We consolidated only from December onwards. Around INR 80 odd crores.
Answer. One second. Ramanujam, you can answer the question.
Things like this, when we consolidated CG just for four months starting December to March. The entire exceptional item of CG will not go in here because the eight months gets excluded. For the four months, the exceptional item is roughly around, if I take Q3, it will be around INR 80 odd crores. That's the reason.
That shows up in the exceptional on the overall.
Yeah.
Yeah. Aditya, I don't know if that answers your question.
Maybe I can take it up with Mr. Ramanujam offline.
Sure. He can reach out.
Yeah. Okay, great. Thank you so much for answering the questions, Mr. Vellayan and team, and best of luck with the quarter results.
Thank you. Thanks a lot, Aditya.
Thank you. The next question from the line of Ankit Nathan from First Invest Bank. You may go ahead.
Yeah. Good morning, and thank you for the opportunity. My question is related to TIDC India. Can you shed some light on the TIDC India, how is the transmission chain business doing for us? As well as if you could as well bifurcate the two-wheeler and the industrial chain division.
Obviously we don't report performance data at the business unit level. A broad indication, I'll let Mr. K. R. Srinivasan, who heads that division, give you some broad guidance on how the businesses are doing. In short, both those businesses have been doing well, I'll let K R talk a bit more about it.
Good morning. K. R. Srinivasan here. As far as chains are concerned, automotive transmission chains, we saw different kinds of demand fluctuations right through the year 2021. The first quarter last year was affected by pandemic, and then we had some good traction in the aftermarket demand in the remaining quarters. Basically driven by the consumption at the vehicle maintenance in the market. That really helped us to improve our market in the aftermarket. The OEMs were actually following the demand curve, the lockdown, and then market opens up and then lockdown. They were actually managing the pipeline inventory right through the year. That is how their production was going up and down. We need to dovetail our operational level for OEMs suitable to their demand, which continued this year as well. Coming to the industrial chain. Industrial chains have done pretty well.
Of course, they were affected in the domestic demand initially because of pandemic. This division came back very strongly post-pandemic, and then we did some impressive sales in the domestic demand. Even exports have done pretty well, though the export markets were affected because of logistics and also other demand fluctuation issues. Overall, the division came back very strongly, and we see the traction continuing this year as well.
Sure. That's helpful. Just a follow-up on the automotive chain segment. Would it be possible to share how much of the revenues come from two-wheeler or from the passenger vehicle or the other segment?
Anirudh?
Yeah. We don't usually share data at that granular a level.
Yeah.
I think Anirudh will be able to.
Okay. Also, if you could give the outlook on the automotive chain segment, like if the EV transition takes in, then how do we plan to navigate through this EV scenario?
Yeah, that is a very good question. Actually, like always, as Vellayan says, we don't have a crystal ball to project this future. However, we are preparing ourselves to face the EV because EV will have some impact, but not immediately. Maybe a few years down the line it will have some impact. We are preparing ourselves with sort of alternate strategies within the division for facing that.
Sure. We would be much more focused on the aftermarket side, right?
Yeah. You are right. Aftermarket would continue for pretty more years, even though the OEMs EV, because of EV demand, the IC engine demand comes down. The aftermarket would continue for many more years.
Yeah. Obviously, there'll be after 10 years after the demand.
Correct.
Yes. Currently, we don't have any product for the EV as such.
As such, currently, we don't have any product for EV.
Okay. Thank you so much.
Yeah. Thanks.
Thank you. The next question is on the line of Shyam Sundar Sriram. Shyam Sundaram Mutual Fund, please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, team. Good morning. This is Shyam from Sundaram Mutual. Thanks for taking my question. I hope you're doing well, sir, in this tough environment. Sir, my first question is on the Metal Forming Division. While all other divisions have done very well during the year, we've seen the Metal Forming Division in terms of the revenue lagging a little bit. Obviously, the year has been quite tough. If you can give some perspective within the Metal Forming, which sub-segment has pulled down the performance of the overall division? That is my first question. Secondly, on the engineering side, you did talk about the online segment being facing challenges, et cetera, both on engineering as well as the Metal Forming. Put together, have you gained market share in any sub-segments per se?
The reason I'm asking is because engineering has recently been doing extremely well from a revenue growth perspective on that front. Are there any share gains in any sub-segment within that? If you can give some perspective on that as well.
Sir, the first question, the challenge actually has been on the railway front. That's where we've seen the biggest challenge from Metal Forming perspective because railways got extremely sluggish last year. They really never came out of the whole COVID-19 situation. Your second question on engineering, Mukesh or Varun, do you answer that?
Yeah. Thanks for your question. Just to share with you, growth is led by almost all three verticals. One is, your observation is right, we have gained market share in the domestic market in the last year to a good margin. Maybe focus on exports as well as our large diameter plant has also led to the growth. Growth is a function of all these three areas. In domestic market, yes, we have improved shares.
Sure, sir. When you're talking about it on the new tube blade that you're supposed to start in 19.34, what is the status there? Overall, on the non-auto hydraulic cylinder pickup, how is it happening? If you can, one housekeeping question, on the export revenue, if you can share how much was export revenue in FY21?
Okay, going one by one. Our tube mill work was getting commissioned. Unfortunately, because of COVID-19, it is running by a little delay, and we hope this after second wave, we are going to finish that exercise. Coming to exports, like Vellayan mentioned, we don't share the revenue breakup of domestic and exports. Maybe engineering division, that's how we classify. On the large diameter side, yes, the growth is coming good because of the government spend on the infrastructure and all these things are showing good momentum.
Wonderful. One last question on the CapEx side, what are the planning in terms of the capital expenditure? FY 2021, we had around INR 159 crores of CapEx. How are you looking at capital spend in FY 2022 and FY 2023? Got some perspective there. Where are we trying to spend that? If you can share from the management.
Sure, Shyam. This year, the CapEx could be in the range of INR 200-250 crore. A major part of that will be towards the EV project which we are working on. Plus, there are a few expansion plans which we have in chain business and also in engineering business.
Sir, sorry, which project you're working on, sir? I missed that.
The EV, electric vehicle project.
Okay. Three-wheeler project. Okay. Wonderful. Thank you very much, sir. I'll call back in a bit. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Abhishek Ghosh from DSP Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. I had a few questions. First, the cycle division, when we are looking at the export opportunity, will it be in form of B2C or a B2B format, or will it be a mix of both?
Are you saying we're going to go direct and try to sell to customers with our own brand in the foreign market? The answer is no.
Exactly.
B2B.
Okay. While you've seen a sharp improvement in the revenues of cycle division on a quarter-on-quarter basis up to that INR 300 crore mark, the corresponding margins have not come in. I thought since it's more a B2C business, gross margin should have been stable. How should one look at the margin profile of the cycle business more from a medium-term perspective? Is it more like a 5%-6% margin business, or is it like a double-digit kind of a margin business? How should one look at it?
Mynak, do you want to take that? Shyam, Paul?
You're talking about full-year numbers, or what are you comparing with full year or Q4?
I'm not looking at full year because 1 Q was an aberration. If I look at more like an exit number of INR 300 crore turnover revenue that you've done for the quarter with corresponding 5.5% margins, I'm just trying to see that in the medium term, given the competitive intensity that one is seeing in the domestic market. That has kind of come off because of the large player going off. The demand pool that is coming plus the export opportunities. What from a medium-term perspective, is this TI business, is it like a double-digit margin business for you all or is it more like 7% margin? Just wanted to get that aspect from a medium-term perspective.
It may not be a double-digit margin, but there may be some opportunity for further improvement, but it won't be a double-digit margin.
Broadly, I would say Paul and team are looking to improve margin. Paul, do you want to comment? Paul and team are interested to improve margins more, but they've already improved margin significantly from what the numbers used to be.
Compared to last year, there's already a significant improvement.
Already a significant improvement.
Yeah. Correct.
Sir, the other thing is now you have this portfolio of Shanthi Gears, CG Power, Tube, and there are a lot of commonalities between industrial gears. CG also does a lot of business with railways. Tube also does a lot of business with railways. Are the teams already interacting with each other? Is there some kind of synergies that are happening or you just want to consolidate CG and then probably get into those kind of initiatives? How should one look at it?
Yeah. I'd say that this year is more of a year of consolidating these individual businesses. Just to give you a sense, even in railways, in CG, their interaction has predominantly been with the powertrain, with the engine side. TI's interaction has mainly been with the coaches side. The main interface is at the staff facility and so on and so forth. At the first stage, our focus is just consolidating the existing business. In the second stage, we will move to integration between the two businesses.
Okay. Just coming to one element also, do you believe that railways could be weak in FY 2022 as well because of the similar trends continuing out of FY 2021, so the Metal Form division could see a drag in FY 2022 as well because the railways is not doing well?
DLF, you want to provide a perspective on railways?
Yeah. See, right through last year, the coach factories were having challenges in continuing the operations. Even now we see that because of the lockdowns in all the zones, wherever the coach factories are situated, north, south or north. Slowly they are opening up. The allocations from the ministry need to improve. Our interactions with the railway authorities is really kind of promising. They're seeing that maybe third quarter of this year, things would come back to normal, is what is their guess. We need to wait and watch. Maybe next quarter will throw more light on this. Definitely government has committed to spending more in railways, both in coach and other areas, in the safety areas. As far as potentially railway is concerned on a long-term perspective, it is definitely there.
Okay. Sir, just one last question from my side. In the cash flow statement, there is a small amount related to the corporate guarantee provided to CG Power. I know that the amount is pretty small, but just to understand your thinking in terms of how much have you lent as a corporate guarantee to CG Power and what's the policy going forward around that?
We issued these corporate guarantees to secure the loans, which we have taken to refinance the CG acquisition. This is a notional entry. This is not actually a cash flow entry. It will get offset elsewhere. This is a notional entry which we have to pass based on Indian accounting standards.
Okay. Great. Okay, sir. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Anupam Gupta. Please go ahead.
Sir, a couple of questions. Firstly, on the cycling business, while the period after COVID has been very strong, do you expect the domestic market to keep growing at this healthy pace, or should it revert back to the older pace, which you were thinking before the COVID start?
I think somebody asked this question earlier, saying, "What's the outlook?" I think like we said, at this point in time, it's very difficult to say what is the outlook going to be. I think we just have to wait and see. It's way too early to comment.
Okay. Understood.
Obviously, there is a school that says, "Hey, demand is going to pick up." We don't want to make that assumption right now. Like both Mukesh and Paul said, there's an increasing focus on exports as well, and so we're hoping that will also help us because we are seeing good export demand.
Okay. Sir, because you said about exports, given the export market, the suppliers in China and Taiwan who are the largest suppliers, they obviously have much better economies of scale there. What advantage do we have versus them in terms of costs if we are primarily focusing on B2B?
I think two sets of things. One is that, like we've seen after this pandemic, there are several buyers in the U.S. who are clearly saying that they do not want 100% dependence on a Chinese supply chain anymore. We see that as a definite advantage. The second is that, I think in terms of some products, like you read in the CNN, right? There is anti-dumping against some of the Chinese players. There have been challenges with India also. We do see opportunities begin to pick up for our segment.
Okay. Understood. Just 1 question on the engineering segment. You have been working on growing the exports pie for the engineering segment as well. How is the traction on the product which you are developing and any further products which are in the pipeline which can come through?
I think Mukesh Ahuja answered that. Mukesh Ahuja, do you want to answer that? You mentioned some of it before, you can answer it again.
Like we shared earlier, we don't discuss in detail which product category specifically we are focusing on. Just to give you a broader answer is, we are going to increase our participation at the geography level, we are going to do that. We are also participating in the new product segments, even for this CapEx is also under completion, so we'll be taking that forward to answer your question.
Okay. Understood. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nikunj Shah from Edelweiss. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity and congratulations on a very good set of numbers, sir. Just two, three questions. First, I think you have taken a INR 200 crore fundraising enabling resolution. Is it largely for working capital, in terms of, or is that for something else? That was the first question. The second question was, you've done M&A of CG Power, and you did guide us that you will look at multiple M&As in future as well. Given the turnaround that we see in CG Power already, is it safe to assume that over the next 12 months, we will look at another acquisition given the stress environment that we are under?
Yeah, I'll answer the second question first. Obviously, we will start looking, but we're not going to set ourselves the time limit under which we have to do a deal. It's going to be very opportunistic from that perspective, as far as the M&A part is concerned. In terms of the INR 200 crores, it's more like an enabling resolution. It's not for any specific requirement as of now.
Okay, got it. Just one more question if I may squeeze in, sir. While you had guided earlier during the CG Power call that you had a guidance of 10% PBT margin, if you just look at the numbers on an adjusted basis, you already would cross about 12% if I adjust the raw material cost inflation, which at some point of time will converge. Would you like to give a higher level guidance again on that number? Because it also impacts to some extent Tube valuations. Would you like to give that revised guidance on that?
No, I think first let's see, because there's a mix of businesses there, right? Some businesses might be higher than others, right? I would say that it's still a business that we need to run. I don't want to give any increased guidance on that. Give us two quarters, give us three, four quarters to learn that business. I think then after that we can start discussing on that.
Perfect. That's all from my side. Thanks for the call.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Avinash Joshi from Batlivala & Karani Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah, good morning, sir. I just had a small request to make. Sir, in the last call, you had mentioned that you'll probably be doing a separate conference call for CG Power. Now you're stating unless there's adequate coverage, we'll get into it. It's becoming like a chicken and egg story. Why don't we preempt the coverage by getting some more details, discussing these kind of calls or do a start doing a separate call, sir? That's just a request, sir. Thank you so much, and all the best.
Okay. All right. It's not necessary we have to wait for coverage. We'll have a discussion. We'll make a call on it fairly quickly, okay?
Thank you so much, sir.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Bharat Sheth from Quest Investment Advisors. Please go ahead.
Hi, thanks for the opportunity, sir. Sir, one small question, on CG Power, not financially, but business-wise, qualitatively. In CG Power, I understand we have a smaller motor business also, and with GST coming in and this COVID, there is a lot of consolidation is happening. If you can share some color, and are we working, for the small motor business for EV vehicles?
Like we said, sir, we'll start doing separate CG calls. I think basically, we are looking at motors for EV, but it's still in early days. I'm not sure what you mean by small motors, but obviously there is a broad spectrum that kind of CG plays in. We don't get into the very small motors, if that is your question. There are intentions to obviously broaden that spectrum over time, but we don't see getting into the very small fully automated manufactured motors.
Okay. We'll discuss more when we hold a CG Power call.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rohit Tari from Proshare. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Two questions related to Shanthi Gears. Just wanted some clarity on the growth CapEx in Q1 FY 2021. The team mentioned that Shanthi was going to go for about INR 15 or INR 20 odd crore of growth CapEx. In Q3, Mahendra and his team mentioned that there will be a deferral, and that in future, in Q4 and then Q3 of the next year to be spread over the next four quarters. Just wanted to understand what exactly is happening on the CapEx front for Shanthi.
Yeah. Your question is what are we likely to spend this year?
What your guidance is for spend, and what do we intend to spend in this year?
Yeah. What we intend to spend could be in the range of around INR 20-25 crores.
Okay. That is for the growth CapEx, is it?
Correct. To get into the newer segments of products.
Sorry, I didn't get that.
To get into new opportunities for new segments in the year ahead.
If you wish to elaborate a bit on the new segments or is it too early to speak about that?
We don't want to reveal it exactly now.
Okay.
Yes, we are good.
Apart from the new segments, any other propellers of growth which the long-term shareholders or investors should look at for Shanthi?
I think like how we explained that service business continues to be a growth opportunity. There is significant potential there. Still, it is remaining untapped. We continue to focus on that.
The service business would be like what, 15% of the total turnover today?
Yeah, it'll be around that. Yes.
You intend to pull it up to? In terms of percentage.
Lot of scope of potential. It should be, I would say maybe a double-digit growth every year.
Okay, sir. Thank you. Thanks a lot.
Thank you. A reminder to the participants, anyone who wishes to ask a question, you press star and one now. The next question is on the line of Yogesh Singhvi from Prime Research. Please go ahead.
Hi, Yogesh.
Yogesh, your line is on talk mode. You can go ahead, please. If you would be kindly unmute yourself, it's muted from the handset. Since you're not responding, I'll move to the next question. From the line of V.P. Rajesh from Banyan Capital. Please go ahead.
Thanks for the opportunity. Most of my questions have been answered. Just a couple of questions on Shanthi Gears. What is the capacity utilization in that business? Secondly, what is the growth prospects you feel over the next six years, given government's stress on manufacturing and infrastructure?
Capacity utilization, obviously, is kind of done at an individual product level at Shanthi, right? Because some of the products go through other much larger products, some of the products are heavy duty, the medium. Capacity utilization in general, I would say is about 65%-70% right now. In terms of growth prospects, I think we talked about it, basically the avenues we see are service revenues, new products in the existing segment itself. Exports continues to be an opportunity. We're also looking at now what to do from a technology perspective, basically what we're beginning to see. IoT, what if we can stick some of that into the gears because that's increasingly becoming a demand from the customer side as well. All four tend to be good growth opportunities for the business. There's definitely significant growth opportunity.
We'll have to wait and see how this thing plays out, but we are bullish broadly in terms of where we are on the business.
Sure. Thank you for the answer. I was just trying to understand if there are more opportunities in the domestic market because of the spend that government is pushing in infrastructure or that may not be the case.
Yeah. Definitely, there are several trends that are positive, right? Sugar, for example, is going to be a positive trend if people start spending more in that business. Infrastructure picks up definitely. Any of the big areas. Cement basically helps us. Any infrastructure areas help us. Definitely, if there is more of an infrastructure spend and push there, we will see growth from that.
Is that too early to call and come back?
Yeah, it'll be too early. Right. We don't want to say anything before those things happen.
Okay. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
Yeah. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Tamij Gangate, Anindya Investment. Please go ahead.
Hello, sir. My question is with regards to our acquisition of CGP. In total corpus of outstanding warrants that TI possesses, is there any data that we have as to how much of it has already been utilized and converted to shareholding? What is an approximate timeline as to when TI is going to utilize all of their warrants and convert them into shares?
I think we have 18 months from the date of issue, and the date of issue was October or November?
November.
November 2020. Within 18 months, we'll basically fully subscribe. On a fully subscribed basis, I think our total shareholding goes up to 58.
59% almost.
58.06%. Okay. Yeah. Our shareholding goes up in that range, somewhere between 58% and 59%. Is there any other question?
That's all, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. That was the last question. I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Anupam Gupta.
Yeah. Thanks, Aisha. Just had one small question, if it's okay. In the engineering products segment, we obviously have segment exposure to two-wheelers, and the electric two-wheelers there are making slightly faster inroads than in the passenger vehicles, I think, in India. Have we started pitching our products there or have you seen any traction there, or do you see that still to be some time away?
Yeah, it's a good question. I think, Mukesh, the question is on whether electric will affect our TFS business. If you can please talk to that.
Actually, it is going to increase the growth opportunity because if we go through the segments, the scooters are taking the first priority for the electrification in the two-wheelers segment, and the TFS segment is going to increase by introduction of EVs. We see the opportunity, we don't foresee any impact on the business on the negative side as of now, but there is opportunity side. Yes, there are opportunities which we have to participate and grow our business. So far, but have you seen any traction there, or is it too early?
It's too early.
Okay, understand. Thank you all, sir. That all answers my question. Thank you all for giving us the opportunity. If you have any closing comments, well and please, go ahead.
Thanks. I think nothing specific from our perspective. We have set our ability, our focus continues on the key areas, including lean as an opportunity for performance improvement, TQM, all of those efforts continue, and we do see more performance improvement opportunities just on those itself, in addition to some of the new areas and growth that we're looking at. With that, we also close our commentary. Thank you, and look forward to interacting with you next quarter. Thank you.
Thanks a lot. Thank you.
Thank you. Bye.
Thank you. On behalf of IIFL Capital Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you everyone for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.