Earnings Call: Q1 2021

May 4, 2021

Good morning, everyone. My name is Amelia, and I take care of Investor Relations for Sahab. Thank you for joining us on our 1Q 2021 business performance update call on such short notice after the unforeseen circumstance involving SGX's website last evening. On this morning's call, we have our Chief Executive, Nikhil Even, our CFO, Ali Chan, Chief of Enterprise And Yohann Bushe, Chief of Consumer. Good morning, everyone. We'll start off with opening remarks from Nikhil, followed by Dennis on financials. And then Yohann and Charlie will bring us through business highlights. We will then open the floor to questions thereafter. Nikhil, over to you, please. Good morning all and thank you very much for joining us this morning. And again, apologize for the snafu on the SGX upload. Perhaps I'll start. So I'll run through our numbers in brief, but I would just like to make 2 overarching comments as you look at these numbers, which is number 1, please keep in mind that this is a comparison to Q1 2020 and Q1 2020 was a quarter which was a no COVID quarter. So we had the benefits of roaming, we had the benefits of visitation and we had the benefits, of course, of full foreign workforce in Singapore. The second thing you should obviously keep in mind is competition in the mobile segment continued to intensify over the year, clearly one of our many segments, but important to us. So on that note, looking at our total revenue, as you see, total revenue was down by about $19,000,000 or 3.8 percent year on year. Equipment sales actually had a positive delta, up by about 10 $1,000,000 or 9.9 percent due to iPhone 12 and S21, and S21 was launched this year earlier than anticipated. Service revenue was down by $29,000,000 with lower contributions from mobile and pay TV and cybersecurity offset by an increase in network solutions and Stratec within enterprise, which grew well. The key driver, as I mentioned, across mobile was a loss of roaming, particularly against this quarter last year due to roaming and or reduced usage. And again, comparing to a no COVID quarter of Q1, we also saw a reduction in visitation and foreign labor force within prepaid. So as a result of revenue reductions flowing through, we saw significant reductions in EBITDA and service EBITDA. However, we did hold EBITDA margins relatively flat at 30.7% due to cost management and OpEx reductions. And when you actually look at our organic businesses, not including Cyber and ICT, we actually saw a small uptick in EBITDA margins. Net profit, again, revenue reductions flowed through, reduced by 31% compared to a year ago. But note this quarter that JSS grants have largely tapered off, and we expect only $1,000,000 this quarter. And to conclude cash flow and capital structure, CapEx paid was 29 $500,000 for the quarter at about 6% of revenue. Free cash flow was down 18% due to higher tax payments and lower operating cash flow. So again, a tough quarter with competitive market conditions and a cautious business outlook on normalization vis a vis COVID. But we were able to fortify our cash flow and cash balances, and we're able to bring our leverage down further to 1.3x from 1.4x. On our segmented numbers and looking at the various segments, mobile revenue was down $34,000,000 or 21% year on year and down 6.5% quarter on quarter. The bulk of both declines, particularly year on year, were due to COVID related factors compared to a no COVID quarter. So we saw lower roaming, lower IDD, lower usage on postpaid and lower prepaid subscriptions with lower visitation and then foreign workforce. In particular, relating to the quarter on quarter, we did see the impacts of escalating competition, MVNO incursion and the ongoing trend of migration to SIM only. Pay TV revenue was down a little bit by $1,900,000 including lower commercial TV revenue and advertising revenue. Broadband, on the other hand, we were able to increase by 5,200,000 dollars with uplift in ARPU as a result of withdrawal of subscription discounts. On the enterprise side, divided into 3 pieces. Network Solutions was up 2,700,000 dollars as projects as we did see signs of projects deferred in 2020 being recommitted for 2021. We did, however, see a quarter on quarter decline in managed services, which is a seasonal issue. Managed services is generally low in Q1 relative to Q4. Cybersecurity was down by about $20,000,000 and this is a business where the revenue stream and the contracts are large and lumpy. So this was due to project timing. And whilst down quarter on quarter, we would note that our cybersecurity business is ahead of budget and expect strong outlook for the year on the back of strong order book. Regional ICT and Stratec, which we consolidated from August onwards, registered a strong quarter on quarter revenue increase, small numbers, dollars 3,000,000 but registering 19% quarter on quarter increase. With that, I'll just pause there and hand off to Dennis for a round up on our financial results. Thanks, Nikhil. Good morning, everyone, and thanks for dialing in. I'll just expand on the points that Nikhil has made with regards to the numbers. The revenue that we reported service revenue that we reported for this quarter is at $375,700,000 and that was about 29 $1,000,000 decline. And as Nicolas explained, that's largely coming through from the mobile segments, as well as the timing of recognition of revenue in our cybersecurity segment. This was offset by the broadband as well as the consolidation of Stratec, which we did not do last year, which we started from August of 2020. Worth worthy to note is that we've reported EBITDA of 1 $22,700,000 versus $136,200,000 last year. And this decline in EBITDA is obviously not as significant as the decline in revenue. And this is we've managed to actually improve margins in certain lines of business as well as continued our focus on cost management in order to deliver these EBITDA numbers. Service EBITDA was 115.4%, percent, translating to a service EBITDA margin of 30.7 percent, sequentially an improvement from 28.4% last quarter in 4Q of 2020 and compared to a year ago, it was fairly stable, 30.7% versus 31.1 percent. Net profit attributable to shareholders was $30,500,000 for the quarter, translating to 0.0 1.6¢ on an earnings per share basis, and free cash flow was 97,400,000 dollars or $0.51 on a FCF per ordinary share basis. Our cash balances stood at 694.2 at the end of quarter 1. Our net debt to EBITDA ratio, which is a measure of our leverage, stood at 1.29%, which is an improvement from 1.4% at the end of last year. With summary of numbers, I hand over the floor to Johan, who will take us through the CBG segment. Johan? Thank you, Dennis, and good morning, everyone. Following Nikhil's and Dennis' updates on financials and overall, I will take you through some of the business lines in Consumer Business Group. So let's start with mobile. Mobile last quarter Q1, we saw a marginal decline in ARPU, mainly due to the ongoing roaming COVID effects as well as lesser excess data usage, partially offset by increase in monthly subscription revenues. Customer base was up marginally, and good to note is that the churn was down to 1%. Prepaid. Prepaid continues to be impacted by the decline in the market size as well as the travel and roaming, not having tourists coming in. Total segment revenue down 6.5%, mainly due to roaming revenues. Moving to ATV, ARPU flat, dollars 40 segment down 4.5% in terms of revenue. That's mainly to a lower subscriber base. The majority of the decline actually is due to the commercial advertising revenues. ARPUs, as you can see, are flat, which is an encouraging sign, and we are forward looking, expecting to hold that ARPU. Moving to home broadband. Home Broadband did well, dollars 31 in terms of ARPU, base marginally down. That's due an effect of promotional benefits ending. Revenue up year on year, 13%, consistent with ARPU increase and also the quarter on quarter revenue went up 2.9%. We see an higher uptake of 2 gig plans, so that is encouraging. And home broadband is also benefiting from Disney Plus. So on that note, I'll hand over to Enterprise, and apologies for the short interruption. Thank you, Johann. Let's go to the next page. As Nikkyu pointed out, we had a slight uptick on a year to year basis and a decline from quarter to quarter, largely due to seasonal changes. Specifically, within the Network Solutions space, we saw a growth on a year to year basis, which Nikhil pointed out was also against a pre COVID situation. There are of course early signs of recovery, but that remains uncertain. We are encouraged by the fact that customers continue to consume their network services. In the cybersecurity space, as indicated, it is lumpy, but we are confident of where we are heading for the rest of 2021. Finally, in the regional ICT space, insofar as the consolidation is concerned on a quarter to quarter basis, the jump from by 19% came from 2 large transactions, 1 in the data engineering space and the other in the systems space from the oil and gas and government agency respectively. Overall, the mix of the enterprise revenue business continue to remain largely in the same proportions with growth coming from significant growth expected overall from our cybersecurity and network solutions from the regional ICT space. So thank you. I'll pass this time back to Nikhil. So in conclusion, our priorities for the rest of the year, as we expressed in our recently concluded AGM are as follows. Number 1, to continue to drive enriching customer experience with a growing suite of connectivity content and entertainment. You obviously saw our launch much earlier in the quarter. Disney plus is a multiyear exclusive partnership. You saw last Friday the announcement of our agreement with NVIDIA GE Force for a suite of 400 games, again, under a multiyear exclusive partnership. So our focus is on driving that enriching customer experience on top of our network platforms. Number 1, on the enterprise side, to continue to empower enterprises with converged connectivity and ICT. So they can take our network and enable their own cloud 5 gs and IoT transformations. Number 3, underpinning both, to execute an effective 5 gs rollout, new customer acquisition and use case deployment on the enterprise side. Number 4, to evolve our operating model to continue to streamline business and to continue to take cost out as we have been and to more important, achieve greater agility and flexibility visavis our business and product plans. And then number 5, to pursue further M and A to augment our capabilities to add growth and to continue to diversify our business. Thank you. Thank you, Nikhil. We'll now open the floor to Q and A. We're trying out a more interactive format this quarter. So if you have a question, please indicate your name and organization in the box the chat box to join the question queue. So when it's the turn to speak, I'll unmute your line and then you can converse directly with our management. So we'll just give it a few minutes to wait for questions to come up in the chat box. Okay. We have the first question from Paul. Paul, I'll unmute you now. Thanks for the presentation. Just two questions for me. In terms of the ARPU for postpaid, could you elaborate a bit more on the quarter on quarter decline? I mean, we can understand year on year, but I just wondering, we also noticed as the quarter on quarter decline ARPU. That's my first question. My second question is on the enterprise business. Just wanted to understand what was what do you mean when you mentioned deferred projects in 2020, recommitting in 2021. What different projects are you referring to? And are these projects very meaningful to revenue? Thank you. That's all for me. Thanks so much. Okay. Thanks, Paul. Johan, would you like to take the first question? Yes. Paul, thanks for the question on the number one on the ARPU. Q4, we actually had a onetime correction due to IFRS. If you were to take that correction out, actually, the ARPU quarter on quarter is flat. We do see quarter on quarter an uptick in subscription revenue. ARPU offset by excess data. So hopefully, that's clarifying your question. Thank you. Thanks, Johan. Second question, Shali, would you like to take that? Sure. Well, thank you for your question. When referred to deferred projects, we are seeing generally in 2020, a trend where normal volume activity slowed down as customers were uncertain. What we are seeing is a gradual uneven recovery as some customers revert to norm and continue their consumption. They are not large significant projects, but just a business as usual. Okay. Thank you, Charlie. We have our next question from Prem. Prem, please unmute yourself and you'll be able to Hi. Good morning. Can you hear me? Good morning. Yes. Good morning. All right. Two questions from me, please. First of all, this recent announcement on M1's network spin off, does Starhub see this as an opportunity for, 1, for you to undertake the safe go down the same path, 1? Or 2, do you see an opportunity for you to potentially improve your own economics by renting network elements from them? Or generally, what do you think this is all leading to from an industry perspective? That's one. Secondly, I note your comments around competition in the mobile market. What do you not Do you not see an improvement here? Do you think this is the last push by the MVNOs before some form of exit? Or do you think that we are going to continue to see pressures on this and we see further erosion in the value of our mobile business? Thank you. Thanks. Nikhil, would you like to take the first question? Yes. So on network carve outs, I should say that these are things that are not new in the market, and we've reviewed them over a period of time. And we look at all possibilities to improve shareholder value. So I think the one thing to that we look at is the fact that a carve out of network assets to another entity isn't free. When you do a sale leaseback, the lease cost depending on interest rates and so on can be quite substantial in a way that materially reduces cash flow. So what we really one of the things that we really have to evaluate is, is this a way to reduce is this the cheapest form of capital for us? And for us in our situation, when you look at our strong free cash flow, when you look at our leverage, which we've consistently declining, now at about 1.29 times. And when you look at the fact that we did our last debt raise in December 2020, 2.48 percent interest per annum. It may not be the cheapest form of capital. We also have to consider what the use of proceeds would be in terms of investment and ROI. So we put all of those things together as we consider these kinds of carve out structures. So I hope that's an answer in some form to your question. On the MVNO's exit, I don't think we can speculate. I think we have our own belief system on where the market is headed to, but I'll hand you off to Johan. Yes. Thanks, Nick. I also fully agree totally with that. It's hard to predict anything at this point in time in the market. Obviously, mobile market is pressurized by COVID impact, lack of roaming, which has been a substantial revenue pool for hotel calls in the country. We continue to play to follow our strategy, which is very much around differentiation. As you saw in Q1, we launched Disney Plus, which is an exclusive multiyear offering in the market, which helps us to differentiate from competition in the mobile area. And probably you saw last week a similar announcement on the gaming side, where we lined up with NVIDIA on GeForce now, similar, exclusive for years to come. Those are important elements of differentiation going forward into 5 gs. We continue to do see a shift going from device to SIM only, but we are confident with the differentiation elements we have at our disposal that we can stand out in the market, and we'll pursue that relentlessly. Hopefully, that's answering your question. Thank you. And now we'll take the next question from Sachin Patel. Sachin, would you like to unmute yourself, please? Yes. Thank you. Good morning. A couple of questions. I mean, just to carry on with the question Prema asked, the big question is, do you think there's a big investment cycle coming up? Because, like Hume, if M1, calls out the network and there's a quick there's a cash coming from that divestment. There could be a big investment cycle coming up in the industry, which might not be necessary in the 5 gs space. That's question number 1. And question number 2 is more on the company side, company specific issues. We have seen very impressive cost management from StarHub in this quarter. So a couple of questions are like we are expecting how much are we expecting for the full year GSS payout approximately range? Because that seems to be a little bit on the lower side for this quarter, which we saw last quarter. And what are we expecting for this quarter? And secondly, what are the costs which we have not factored in this quarter? Will it be network leasing for 5 gs? Is that a cost which will at some point come in? And what could be the timing of that cost? Thank you. Thank you. Nikhil, would you like to take the first question? Yes, yes, please. And I'll answer your first question and perhaps answer a little bit of your second before I hand off to Dennis. So we do not see a big investment cycle coming up. When you look at what's really in the investment cycle, the first is 5 gs. In 5 gs, we are pursuing our rollout under the auspices of joint venture Antenna. So on Antenna, we have effectively moved to a CapEx OpEx substitution model, where we're effectively going to have a wholesale cost basis. So when you look a little bit at your answer to the second question, right, in terms of do we see unforeseen costs, I think we factored those costs in, obviously, subject to industry circumstances, but we feel like we've factored those costs in. So we don't see a new investment cycle coming up. I think 5 gs is yet again the inevitability of telco evolution. But as we've talked about in prior calls, we feel at this time it's a bit different. The other one which could cause an investment cycle is industry consolidation, which many people speculate. And that's not something we can predict. We can only be ready for with a net debt to EBITDA of 1.29 times and strong cash flow. So in short, we don't see an investment big investment cycle coming up. Dennis, you want to take the question on JSS and cost structure? Sure, I will. Hi, good morning, Charles Hsing. So just expound on the points regarding costs. So I just want to highlight the buckets of costs. 1, obviously, is the cost of sales and the other bucket being the operating expenses. I'll just touch on the operating on the cost of sales for a second. If you look at the cost of sales and in the as I went through the result summary, I alluded to the fact that we've actually improved the margins on certain lines of business. In particular, you will see that we have actually reduced TV content costs fairly significantly. And we've also improved the operating model for our broadband segment, which have improved margins in that space as well. So I just want to call out those two elements, which have actually led to a reduction in costs or cost management in those areas. In particular, with operating expenses, when we announced our quarter four results last year, we start we actually guided that we had started our IT outsourcing costs, which are fan loaded. These costs continue into 2021. And so in quarter 1, you actually do see these costs coming through as well, and this will continue and taper off. And we will see savings in the later years starting from year 2 until year 3 and so forth. So it actually goes down steadily over a period of time. That's the intent of the outsourcing arrangements that we have. We continue to do cost management in the areas of repair and maintenance as well as in terms of operating model for our staff costs as well as our marketing costs as well in terms of targeting market targeted marketing rather. So obviously, we don't completely do away with these expenditures. We look at how we rationalize expenditures and optimize them in a better way. With regards to the JSS question, we do not expect to receive any further job support scheme grants for 2021. So there will be no further grants that we will expect to be booking this year, whereas obviously, we booked a total grant of about $28,000,000 for the 3 quarters of last year starting from April. I hope that answers your question, Sachin? Yes. Just one question is, the 5 gs network leasing cost, are they already inside the network? If not, what is the timing for that? Okay. Yes. Thanks for the reminder, Sachin. So in terms of the 5 gs wholesale costs, some level of it has started win booked in quarter 1, albeit it's not a significant sum. As we roll out the stand alone network infrastructure, which we are starting and accelerating from Q2, you will see some level of a pickup in those wholesale costs that we have to pay to our joint venture. Once again, we do not expect those costs to be material for this year. So in effect, you will see them starting to come through a little bit has come through in Q1 and the rest of the year, but it will not be a material sum. Understood. Okay, great. Thank you. Thank you. We'll now take the next question from Ranjan. Ranjan, please unmute yourself. Hi, good morning and thank you for the call. Just two quick questions from my side. Firstly, on 5 gs, if you can talk about the adoption that you have seen so far in the market. And are people actually going for bundled 5 gs handsets? Because anecdotal evidence I see is that people are just going and buying the 5 gs handsets and then getting a SIM only plan. So the question I'm alluding to is that are you actually going to see 5 gs driving ARPU deflation in Singapore? And the second question is on the partnership with Disney plus are these going to be like integrated revenues from a distribution perspective? Or is there anything else we should be aware of which could impact startups' pay TV revenues? Thank you. Thank you. Johan, would you like to take both questions? I can take both, Amelia. Thanks. So thanks, Anja, for the question. So first on the 5 gs. As I mentioned earlier, we did see an subscription revenue uplift year on year. That is driven by 5 gs subscriptions, obviously. The bulk of customers buying a, what we call, mobile plus plan end up using a 5 gs device on their network, and most of them use it on the 5 gs network as such. I'm sure there will be anecdotal customers who pick up a handset and move to a SIM only. That's not something we can prevent, but the subscription revenue flow through we see coming through, and we also see that customers do appreciate the enhanced features of the 5 gs network in terms of speed. So hopefully, that's giving a bit more color on the 5 gs. On Disney plus Disney plus revenue, and Dennis will jump in if needed, is not only allocatable to TV. The Disney plus is an OTT solution. It is a differentiated solution, as we highlighted earlier, which we have exclusive, and we offer that actually in combination with all our product lines. We offer it in combination with 5 gs. We offer it in combination with home broadband, and we offer it in combination with TV, the old classical TV. So as such, you'll see a spread of customers enjoying the Disney plus content across different product lines, and the revenue is allocated, respectively. So hopefully, that's giving you a bit more color to that as well. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Renjun. We'll take the next question now from Karri. Hi, good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Echo. Yes. I just have two questions. So for the first one, it's actually can you give us some colors in terms of the post PR pool? Why are we actually seeing quarter on quarter decrease and as well as like the competition landscape within the mobile segment itself? And the second question that I have is with the ongoing chips and components shortage situation, is the 5 gs rollout still on track? Yes. Thank you. Okay. Johan, would you like to take the first question? Yes. I can take number 1 and 2 and can give maybe a flavor on number 3 as well, but leave it also to others to chip in on that one. So postpaid ARPU, Karin, as mentioned earlier, we had a onetime effect in Q4. If you factor that out, actually ARPU Q4 to Q1 was flat, stable. Moving components in the ARPU are obviously increasing in subscription revenue, offset by a decrease in excess charges, excess data charges, as you'll understand, looking at the bundles in the market at the moment. And then the overarching decline in ARPU year on year is obviously roaming. It's the vast, vast majority of decline. Competition landscape, as Nico referred to earlier, remains very intense at this point in time. We do not wish to speculate what's going to happen going forward in the market with MVNOs and other players. As highlighted, we are determined to follow through our strategy, which is around differentiation, offering a great connectivity. We have multiple awards and recognitions over the last 1.5, 2 years on 4 gs, and also we were the 1st on 5 gs network. So that's important in combination with content and going forward with gaming. So differentiation is key, and we compete where needed on price, but the key is differentiation on content. On the components question, which is an interesting question, I would say that is a little bit beyond 5 gs at this point in time. We are doing our best to secure what we need to secure to run our business. That is applicable to 5 gs, but also to home broadband, CEP and devices. And so far, we do not see any issues. We make sure that we manage that well. Feel free, Nico or Dennis, if you feel like adding something. Thank you, Karim. Yes. I would just like to add on the network rollout. Yes, so the I mean, our network rollout is going on as planned. So that's we do see that we do note the challenges in the supply chain issues and therefore and we are monitoring that closely, but we don't see that impacting our plans for the standalone rollout. Okay. Thank you. Karen, I hope that answers the question. Okay. We'll now take the next question from Arthur. Arthur, could you please unmute yourself, please? Hi. Thanks for the opportunity. Two questions, please. Firstly, on 5 gs, can we get any clarity on the take up levels? Where are we with regard to the adoption? And why is this not showing up on the ARPUs on a quarter on quarter basis? I know that you've mentioned it's flat Q on Q if you adjust for accounting, but presumably 5 gs would have been higher in ARPUs anyway. Second question is with the Disney plus partnership and how it's impacting you. After the launch, are you seeing better subscriber momentum on the pay TV side given the partnership? And what additional costs does this imply for you? Presumably, there will be some fees that you may need to pay Disney. Thank you. Johan, both questions to you, please. Thank you, Arthur. Two very good questions. So let me elaborate a little bit. On the 5 gs ARPU uplift, so Q on Q was flat. What you see happening is that 5 gs uptake has been very strong, yes? So the majority of customers buying a device plan will buy that with a 5 gs. That does create a subscription revenue uplift, as I indicated earlier. The ARPU is, however, flat due to the fact that the out of bundle revenues, so the excess data revenues are declining, as you will understand. So that effect of 5 gs ARPU uplift is partially mitigated, unfortunately, by the excess data revenues, which are coming down. So hopefully, that's answering your question. And then of course, in the market, you have the SIM only effect, right? So more and more customers do go for a SIM only. So plus on the 5 gs, but down on the excess and on the 4 gs SIM only ARPU. So flat on quarter on quarter, I believe, is a fair achievement. On Disney plus your question is how that flow through in cost and how can we manage all that. One of the things we have been calling out in most of the analyst calls over the last years is that we are very determined to shift the cost basis for content from fixed to variable, and that's also part of our plan here. We also believe that the future of content is not on the IPTV platform. It is mainly across different lines of business we have. And as such, having Disney plus as an exclusive multi tier for all our customers is important to differentiate. And we do see an uplift in terms of revenue, ARPU and benefits, mainly on other product lines. It does help us to promote 5 gs. It does help us to promote home broadband, especially on the 2 gig tariff plans. And to a lesser extent, I would say, on the TV side. So it is beneficial for all product lines, but it's well beyond the IPTV. So hopefully, that's answering your question. Understood. Thank you very much. Thanks, Sarta. We'll now take the next question from Phuong. Phuong, could you please unmute yourself? Yes. Hi, good morning, everyone. Thank you so much for the call. Just two questions from me. Firstly, what is the percentage of StarHub's mobile subscribers that are on SIM only plans? And have we seen any acceleration in the shift from postpaid contract to SIM only plans in the past couple of months? That's my first question. And second question, beneath the EBITDA line, do we expect any major savings in terms of depreciation and interest costs this year? And did we see any of that in the Q1 results? Yes, those are my 2 questions. Thank you. Thank you. Johan, first question to you, please. Yes. So on the first question, thank you very much for your question. This is not some this is not a level of information we typically provide. Unfortunately, I can't answer your question, therefore, directly. There is obviously trends in the market, which we monitor carefully, and we will address them as the market develops. Again, what we do see, and I just want to highlight that, is that on the back of content and going forward with cloud gaming, the fact that we can offer something bundled differentiated on the back of 5 gs has been very supportive in our business so far. And we'll compete in similarly where needed. So hopefully, that's giving you a bit of context. And on the second question, I'll probably hand over to Dennis. Okay. On your second question on interest, obviously, we went out with the $200,000,000 bond that we issued at the end of last year, which carries a coupon of 2.48%. That does increase our interest costs slightly by for this year, but not materially. So that is in respect of the bond raise that we did at the end of last year. With regards to your second question on depreciation, in particular, we do see savings in the depreciation line with regards to various IT systems that we are decommissioning. These are legacy systems that we're decommissioning as part of the transmission efforts that we are doing, so there will be savings there. However, as we go through the year and as the stand alone 5 gs network starts coming into play and being used, then we will start the depreciation on the 5 gs network as well. So you will therefore see a shift onwards for certain IT systems, and you'll see a shift upwards with regards to the 5 gs network. All in all, the depreciation in total, I think, which is what you're looking for as a total number is not going to shift dramatically from last year. Okay. And if I can just throw in a follow-up for Johan on the question about the shift from contract to SIM only plans, right? I just wanted to understand whether this upgrade for subscribers from 4 gs to 5 gs and that move to acquire these 5 gs devices, does has it helped in terms of getting subscribers to stick to the device bundled contract plans? Yes, I would say yes. That would be the short answer to that. Correct. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Johan and Dennis. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you. So it seems like we've cleared all the questions. So we'll just give it a minute or 2 to see if we have more questions. Last call for questions. Okay then, I think we have answered most of the questions here. But if you have any follow-up questions, you know how to get me. Please email us at irstahub.com. So thank you everybody for joining us this morning. And as always, please feel free to reach out to us if you have more questions or if you'd like to speak to management. So till next quarter, please stay safe and have a great week ahead. Thank you. Bye, everybody. Thank you, everyone. Bye. Bye.