Earnings Call: Q1 2025

May 26, 2025

Summary

Q1 profit was $149m, with Hapag-Lloyd’s stronger results supporting earnings and a EUR 520m tax-retention balance outstanding. Gemini ramp-up drove 9% volume growth, while tariffs and freight-rate uncertainty remain key risks to the outlook.

Very welcome, everyone. Good morning. First of all, thank you very much for joining the call. We are sorry for the technical issues that we had with the connection with Germany, but we fixed all the issues. We are very happy to have Rolf Habben Jansen here, the CEO of Hapag-Lloyd, who will be updating you, the investors, getting to know the vision that the company has in the market, and also throughout the year. He will also be available for any questions after he is done with his presentation. It is important for you to know that this conference will be done in English and Spanish. There is an icon in your Zoom meeting that allows you to listen to our interpreter, who will be speaking either in English or Spanish, depending on the language that the people will be talking here. So both English speakers and Spanish speakers will have translation. After the presentation by Rolf and the closing questions, we will have a very short presentation from Compañía Sud Americana de Vapores, and there we will thank Rolf for his presence, and we will receive questions regarding Compañía Sud Americana de Vapores. So without further ado, we will show Rolf's presentation here, and we will leave you with Rolf in just one moment. Yeah, Rolf. Thank you, Rolf. Welcome to this investors call. We have about 80 people connected, so whenever you can, we have a record on assistance. So the floor is yours. Thank you very much, and thanks, everyone, for joining us on this call, and happy to give you an update on the first quarter results, and also talk a little bit about what is going on in the market. Maybe if we start with, I think, a few highlights from the quarter. If we just try to I think, by and large, we had a good start to the year, with higher volumes and also better earnings here, despite the fact that it was operationally definitely a challenging quarter as we were also going through the changes from THE Alliance to Gemini. I think the market was mixed. But overall, if we look at how demand developed in the first quarter, we can be quite happy. Global demand was up about 4.2%, which probably more than most people thought. Our volume, definitely quite a bit better than that. How is Hanseatic Global Terminals? Our terminal division added one more terminal to its portfolio, so happy with that. And then, of course, for us, the biggest event in Q1 was the launch of the Gemini cooperation together with Maersk, where I think we have been off to a really good start. I think we are, meantime, as I will show you a little bit later, at close to 4,000 port calls, and we are still above 90% schedule reliability, which I think is a really good achievement. In terms of our earnings outlook, definitely quite a lot of uncertainty around that at the moment. If you would compare the situation today compared to a couple of months ago, then yes, there is certainly a bit more uncertainty, but we still decided to confirm our outlook, as at this point in time, there is nothing that tells us that we should not be able to achieve that. Looking a bit at the market and at global container volumes, as I already mentioned, up about 4%. I think that's pretty good. Also keeping in mind that also last year was a strong year, even if the start was not that strong. Last year, overall 6% growth. Now off to a good start with a 4% growth. If you look at rates, that has certainly been a bit more problematic. When you saw the peak last year, everybody was happy with that. Then we saw a mini peak towards Chinese New Year, where there was also quite a nice run-up as we normally see. After that, rates have been sliding, and not much change in that, basically, up to now. Even if, of course, we now see a bit of a cargo rush on the back of the temporary agreement that's been made between the U.S. and China, which may cause short-term rates to go up a bit. Question is just a bit how long that will last. If we dive a little bit deeper into that, I think tariffs and trade barriers is really a little bit the talk of the town these days. If we move on to the next chart. I think we can see that after a drop in April, because when those tariffs initially were announced by the U.S., we saw quite a big drop, as was to be expected, in bookings from China to the U.S. In most services, that was around 20%, but in some services, it was also up to 30%. Some of that was being compensated by additional flows from Southeast Asia, but certainly not more than half of that. Of course, now we saw the temporary agreement for 90 days that was closed a few weeks back, and then we see an enormous cargo rush over the last two weeks, where our bookings from China to the U.S. have gone, they have basically doubled or in some cases even tripled. The question is just how long that will take, because we still have tariffs in place. We still have unclarity about what's going to happen after those 90 days, and a fair bit of the cargo that is moving now is probably production that was just stored in China for the time being. As such, difficult to judge how much of it is a real cargo rush, or is it just cleaning out the backlogs. Rest of the cargoes going into the U.S. remain fairly stable. Southeast Asia, fairly strong. China, already explained. Rest of world, reasonably stable from Europe. We now see some softness in demand, and the discussion that there is right now about potential additional tariffs for Europe will probably not make that any better. In total, what's our dependency on traffic in and out of the U.S.? It's about 27% of the overall volume that we carry, but keep in mind that's across all trades. That's not only China to the U.S., because that as such is only about 5% of our business. Maybe let's look a bit at things that we can actually influence and that we have under our own control. If we switch to Gemini. Looking at what we have been able to do there, I think that's been a really good success so far. At the moment, I believe we have all but two ships phased into the new cooperation. That means that in essence, 345 ships are being deployed between Maersk and ourselves on a large number of services between Asia and Europe, Middle East and Europe, Atlantic and Trans-Pacific. All the services have started. In total, we have done around 3,250 port calls. I believe, actually, in fairness, this even the number from last week as we are now at about 3,800. Our schedule reliability is still today around 90%. I think the last number I saw this morning was 91% so far. I think that's really, really good. That sets us apart also from competition, because a bit dependent on what kind of measure you believe, they are delivering anywhere between 50 and 75 if you look at Sea-Intelligence. But if you look at eeSea, which is actually a much more accurate way of measuring it because they look at all port calls from all services, then those numbers from competition are actually even lower. So definitely a highlight in the first quarter. Before I get to the numbers, maybe a few words on Hanseatic Global Terminals, our terminal division. A couple of good things to be reported there. We extended a few concessions, one in Florida, one in India. We started up Tuticorin in the south of India. We are progressing fairly well with the Damietta container terminal, which we hope to get operational in the second half of the year. We also announced the acquisition of a 60% stake of a terminal in Le Havre, and that terminal is meantime also up and running and is taking also the first services from Gemini. That means, on track, meantime, built quite a nice portfolio, I think, over the last four to five years, but clearly still a business that is still being built up and that will mature further over the upcoming couple of years. If we compare our activity there with some of our competitors, we definitely started a bit later, and as such, it will take us some time to build that up to a really strong second leg of the Hapag family. Looking at the earnings. I think most of you know the key numbers that you see here. Transportation volume, I already mentioned that, I think. Very good growth, 9% as we grow into Gemini. I think that's very encouraging. It's also something that we'll hopefully continue to see also over the upcoming couple of quarters, because that will be very important to ensure that we also get the efficiencies out of the Gemini network that we expect from it. Revenue up about 15%, EBITDA 17, group profit. You can read all the numbers here. In the end, I would say it's been a pretty good and solid first quarter. Now we need to see what the rest of the year is going to bring. When we look at both business segments with a little bit more detail, I won't dwell too much on that. Next page number 8. There we see a liner shipping, the numbers with a solid EBITDA margin from slightly above 20% and an EBIT margin of around 9%. If we compare that also to our competitors, that's roughly in line with Maersk. That's a little bit worse than CMA CGM, and it's a little bit better than ONE. If you look at the truly global carriers, those are probably the ones that you can compare the best. On the terminal side, EBITDA, numbers fairly comparable with what we saw in the beginning of 2024. Going back to the liner business and looking at volumes. I already mentioned this 9%. Important to highlight there also that most of that growth really came from Gemini. As the growth in the other trades was definitely less. Where did we really see the growth that was in Asia, Europe, that was on the Transpacific in particular, and to a lesser extent also on the Atlantic. All in all, very healthy numbers, well ahead of the market. I think for us that's a bit new. Usually we grow in line with market or sometimes also slightly less. I think that you will see this year and hopefully also next year, that we'll actually grow a little bit ahead of market as we start to fill up the Gemini network, which can simply produce or transport more boxes with the same amount of steel because we turn the ships more reliably and also faster. Unit cost is something that remains under pressure. Here you see an overview over the last five quarters, and there you can clearly see that also in the first quarter of this year, those costs are up. I think there's a number of things that are to be mentioned there. I think when we look at handling and haulage, there we definitely have a significant transition cost as we move into Gemini, as we phase out THE Alliance and we phase in Gemini. We have to move a lot of ships around. Also have to move a lot of boxes around that end up in terminals, where they in future would no longer be, so quite a bit of cleanup that had to be done. I expect those costs also to remain elevated in the second quarter and to a lesser extent in the third quarter. After that, we will start seeing the benefits from Gemini, and we will start seeing those costs come down. Another element which you see here is higher EU ETS costs, as those costs have gone up from 40% to 70% of the final number as from the 1st of January. We also see that our carrier haulage percentage, which we wanted to grow, is indeed up quite a bit in the first quarter. That, of course, also results in higher unit costs simply because you cover more distances. Nevertheless, we have also initiated a comprehensive cost program. We always planned to do that in the second quarter of this year. As last year and this year, in a way, are transition years as we move out of THE Alliance and move into Gemini. As we are getting through the transition from THE Alliance to Gemini, we now need to make sure that the cost improvements that we expect from that are also going to materialize. That means that we will set up that program, or we are actually in the process of setting that up as we speak. Our intention is to start seeing the first effects of that already in the second half of this year, to have roughly 80% of that cost saving effective in 2026 and the full amount as from 2027. We think we know where to find those cost savings. A couple of levers are being mentioned here. But we definitely expect to get a good contribution from the new Gemini ship systems because they are more efficient. We do expect to see a good contribution from a number of the procurement activities that we have done. Then we believe that there is a fair bit that can still be optimized also around SG&A, but for example, also around the repositioning of empty containers. We will keep you posted on the progress. We are going through the design phase of that program as we speak, and we intend to put all those objectives into the budgets for everyone in the third quarter of this year. Moving on to things that we can control quite a lot less. That is of course, demand. If we look at demand growth and we compare it also with what is the amount of capacity that is being made available, then I think that most of the people today expect to see only very modest growth in demand. We are probably a little bit more optimistic because what we have seen in the first quarter was pretty good. We have had a couple of weeks in the second quarter where demand was somewhat subdued after these initial announcements came out on tariffs. But right now I would say that the demand situation is again actually quite reasonable. So of course, we need to see what happens in the second half of the year. But for now, I would still expect that we are going to see some growth, even if it will definitely be less than last year. Moving on to the order book. That order book remains elevated. Of course, 28% of the global fleet looks like a high number, but I would also say that, in the end, if the market continues to grow a little bit every year, that number is not so crazy. Also because, as you can see in the bottom of this chart, the vessel deliveries are basically scheduled over quite a long period of time. It is not that all of these ships are going to be available immediately. The order book today covers from 2025 till 2029, whereas in the past, that used to be a much shorter period of time. The other thing to keep into account is that the world fleet is aging. On the right-hand side you see that by the end of this decade, more than 4 million TEUs, that today is still on the water, is going to be older than 25 years. That means that scrapping will go up. Certainly if the market weakens a bit, one would expect that pretty much all of this tonnage will disappear. Historically, tonnage has actually been scrapped at an age of 22, 23 years. It could also even be a little bit higher than that. As you can see in the bottom, only in the last couple of years, we have seen quite extraordinary numbers of almost nothing that was being scrapped, simply because we needed more or less everything that could move. If you look at the period from 2012 to 2020, then you see that the average age has been somewhere between around 22, 23, 24 years. I still think that it is going to go back to that towards the end of this decade. All in all, before I hand it over to you for any questions that you may have, I would say it has been a solid start to the year. The impact of the tariffs on full-year performance is, at the moment, simply difficult to assess. Having said that, we still think that our outlook holds. Transport volume will increase, clearly. We do think that the freight rate compared to full year last year will in the end be down. Bunker consumption price, we have left it for now at previous year's level, even if you would look at the market for the upcoming couple of weeks, there might also be some reasons to be a bit more optimistic on that. Then we predict group EBITDA and group EBIT to be between $2.5 billion and $4 billion, respectively between zero and $1.5 billion. Wrapping things up, just to make sure that we also inform you about what are our priorities going forward. I think our priorities going forward is to make sure that we continue to have that seamless phase-in of the Gemini network to achieve that schedule reliability of 90% week in, week out. In that process, we also address some of the teething issues that we, as expected, are facing at this point in time. We have to make sure that we maintain high customer satisfaction. In our last customer survey that we just completed a few weeks ago, we had our highest marks ever. I think that is a real big compliment to all of our teams because that was reflecting the performance as we were going through the transition from THE Alliance to Gemini. We will continue to look at ways to expand our terminal division, if the right opportunities arise and if we can achieve the synergies that we are aiming for. We will continue to invest in the expertise and resilience of our team. We will also use modern technology there where possible. Of course, we will focus on cost, and we will also try to remain agile and quick on our feet, as this industry is changing quite often and quite rapidly, and the market has definitely been volatile over the last couple of months, or if someone looks back a little longer, one could also say pretty much this entire decade so far. That is it, at least as an introduction from my side, and maybe Oscar, I hand it back over to you. Yeah. Thank you very much, Rolf, for a very complete debrief on the Q1 and your views on market. We are going to take questions in English or Spanish. You can raise your questions and we will let you talk, or you can write them down in the chat. Okay. So I will translate for you if we have a problem. People may ask by raising their hand or by putting the question in the chat. It can be done in English or Spanish. Meantime, Rolf, maybe I can ask you a few questions I have been receiving from investors, mainly because on April 12, we saw these tariff truces, right? Now there is this 90-day window to move as much cargo as shippers need to, especially thinking that maybe the peak season is going to start now. I do not know how have you been seeing demand over the last couple of weeks. Maybe you can tell us a little bit, how are you preparing for this peak season? Do you see this peak season coming sooner than expected? I think what we have seen is that after the initial announcement of the tariffs, most of the trades remained stable with the exception of China to the U.S. That, of course, came down. Since this 90-day period was agreed between China and the U.S., where they basically bring down the tariffs from 145% to 30%, or effectively in most cases, it is actually still a little bit higher than that. Then we saw over the last two weeks, a big cargo rush. From everything we hear from customers, that is mainly to clear backlog of cargo that was already waiting to be shipped. It is not necessarily so much additional demand. Personally I think it will depend very much on what is going to come out in terms of news flow from China and the U.S. on what they are doing together, on what is going to happen longer term. Else, I would probably expect a bit of a rush towards the end of that 90-day period, but not great volumes after that. Are you expecting a lot of congestion, especially in the U.S. ports? Is it something that you're already seeing, or should we start seeing that maybe at the end of June, beginning of July? Right now, the U.S. ports, particularly on the West Coast, are not very congested because they deal with a cargo flow that was down after the initial announcements of Trump. Now, of course, with the rush that we see and with quite a large number of extra loaders being announced, particularly to the West Coast, I do expect to see some congestion in the second half of June. How long that will last will depend very much on how cargo bookings will be over the upcoming couple of weeks, which then will depend on what's being agreed between China and the U.S., if anything. Mm-hmm. Thinking a little bit more in the midterm, what do you see as the main challenges for the industry? How do you see growth on the next coming five years, let's say? Gemini is going to last for the next 10 years. How are you preparing for the changes that may the industry be having? Can you tell us a little bit of global challenges? I think when you look at the challenges that the industry has, then one of them we try to address through Gemini, which is the lack of predictability and schedule reliability. I think we will get that largely under control, at least on the East-West trades, and we'll still need to come up with an answer on some of the North-South trades, including Latin America, over the years to come, and we certainly have that on the radar. I think a second challenge will remain the decarbonization of this industry. That's, of course, a longer-term challenge where many of us will to work on until far into the next decade and probably also beyond that. The biggest uncertainty for the next five years is probably demand growth. I think when you look back at the last 10 or 15 years, I think we've actually seen demand growth that's been quite steadily around the growth of GDP. I would also still expect that to continue going forward, but it is a little bit uncertain what's happening today as a consequence of all these tariff announcements left, right, and center on where that growth will then come. Also whether we will come to a soft landing on that, or whether we will see some very tough disputes between China and the U.S. or maybe also between the U.S. and Europe. Yeah. We got some questions from the people on the call, Rolf. There are two questions. Let me see if I can see that here. Yeah. How do you see the operation in India and growth opportunities in order to reach the goals of the company? I would add, particularly on the China Plus One strategy that many shippers may be taking. I think that the outlook for India is generally quite good. India has certainly, over the last years, invested more and more in infrastructure, which over time will allow them to grow more. Of course, India is a little bit more neutral, certainly from a U.S. perspective, than China. Many people will indeed go for a China Plus One or China Plus Two type of strategy, where Southeast Asia, for many, is the first market to go to. But the number of people in those countries is also somewhat limited, so none of them will ever be able to take over fully China, and that's where, then, a place like India would be a very logical candidate. We also see that quite a number of the larger U.S. shippers and importers are looking at growing their imports from South Asia. So from India and Bangladesh quite a bit. Yeah. If I may add, Rolf, I think the company has been an early investor on infrastructure in India with a very sizable deal with JM Baxi. Which is actually the thing which is lacking for India to grow. More infrastructure. Absolutely. We have certainly invested quite a bit, and also our market position in India is pretty good. If you look at the last 7, 8 years, we have grown almost every year faster than the market out of India. And we today have a sizable organization there. And it is, as you say, also an investment on the ground, which we should be able to benefit from that in the upcoming 3, 4, 5 years. There is another question, connected to the exposure of Hapag to spot rates versus longer-term contracts. Traditionally, we are more or less 50/50 between contract rates and spot rates. We are probably at the moment a little bit higher on the contract rates because we knew that we were going to grow probably ahead of market, and then you typically take a little bit more committed volume on. But normally our split is roughly 50/50, whereby short-term rates, you have them also in all kinds, all way, shape, and forms. But roughly the split is 50/50. Well, there is also a question on the strategy vis-à-vis Chinese vessels connected to the U.S., the USTR ruling, how much that will affect or not our cost to operate in the TP. Yeah. We expect that based on the latest version from USTR that came out on the 17th of April, that in the end, we will be able to mitigate the impact of that. That means that we will not incur additional cost because of that ruling, because we will be able to redeploy some of the Chinese ships that we today operate on the TP into other trades. The overall number of ships that is affected in our fleet is relatively low. That does not take away that there are also other rulings that are still being discussed, and there is still another hearing on USTR 301 as well. But based on what is on the table today, which we believe is going to be quite close to the final version, we do not expect that to have impact on our cost for the trades to the U.S. And then another question on whether the GRI increases seen in the market apply or not to contracts, to long-term contracts. Unfortunately, the answer to that is, it depends. Because we have some contracts which are subject to peak season surcharge, for example, and in others, that may be capped or that may be less the case. So we have all kinds of variants. I mean, the short-term rates, of course, if the rates go up, then the short-term cargo typically picks that up. For the long-term cargo, it is a bit more of a mixed bag, to be fair. And there you do not see all the increase in the spot rates, of course, coming through in the long-term rates. Mm-hmm. One question connected to the scrapping. Of course, we all share the view here that the order book, when you consider all the aging of the fleet, is not a structural problem, right? Looking at the next four or five years. But the scrapping has been postponed by the industry because every vessel has been needed, basically. And how is the scrapping infrastructure in order to take care of all these millions of TEUs that may be needed to be scrapped in a shorter period of time than usual, right? Is that infrastructure adapted to these types of Or we may face a situation where even if we want to scrap, we may not have the infrastructure pending there. Yeah. I think opinions vary on that topic. I think personally that scrapping capacity will be tight, because if that activity has been so low for a long period of time, and to then see all of a sudden, 10 or five times more of that normally leads to capacity constraints. Having said that, when I talk to our fleet people, they are pretty confident that we will be able to get access to the needed scrapping capacity that is required, whereby they are not only looking at the yards that everybody would typically be looking at, but they believe that there is additional scrapping capacity that could be freed up in other parts of the world as well. But long story short, I personally think it's going to be very tight. But when talking to the fleet people and also talking to some brokers, people believe that scrapping capacity can actually be increased quite quickly, and also not everybody will have the same requirements on scrapping yards as we have. Okay, perfect. Thank you. Then we take the last question, so not to abuse of your time. It's a question connected to the declaration of the U.S. government that they want to enter the ship construction industry, and how this may affect, yes or no, the total supply of vessels, considering that today most of the vessels are Asian produced, right? I mean- I think the likelihood that we will see significant shipbuilding and shipyards in the U.S. anytime soon, I think is very low. In reality, the capabilities that we have in the U.S. today to build larger container ships, it's basically nonexistent. That means the infrastructure would have to be built, but you would also have to make sure that you have the people available to do the work and to build up the skills to bring your technology back into the country. So I think it is highly unlikely that we will see any competitive U.S. shipbuilding within the next five or 10 years. Then I'm not only comparing to China, but also if you compare to Korea or other markets, it will be very difficult to get anywhere near to that cost level or that type of productivity, also capacity. Okay. Well, thank you both very much. It has been great hearing you this morning. I think every investor is very happy to have you on our call. We will free you now so that you can go back to your duties, and thank you very much. Nice seeing you, and- Thank you. Bye. Thank you. [Foreign language] We will now continue with the presentation of the CSAV results. So I do the presentation? Bueno, ahora vamos a pasar a ver Now we will quickly check the results of CSAV. The first quarter, we had a profit of $149 million, quite above the losses of the first quarter of 2025. We will be seeing the figures. They are explained due to taxes, the results from Hapag-Lloyd, and a difference exchange rate. We also have to mention that after we handed over the first trimester of this year, the first quarter, April and May, we recovered a retention from CSAV Germany of EUR 129 million. CSAV also received a dividend from Hapag-Lloyd for EUR 432 million. With that, last Friday, we shared the dividend from CSAV to its shareholders worth $390 million for shareholders after retentions. Here we see the difference between the first quarter of 2025 compared to the first quarter of 2024. We have to mention that the first quarter of 2024, we had recovered the retention, and we brought dividends from Germany to Chile, and this makes it so that the tax expenditures from that quarter was higher. Since that happened in April of this year, we will see this reflected in the second quarter of 2025. That is why the results of the first quarter of 2025 are quite simple. It is the best result of Hapag from what we just saw, better tariffs, and an increase in volume of 9%. Management expenditures from CSAV, very similar one year after the other. The financial results had a small dip because we had a bit smaller cash flow. But we have no debts as a company. Also the exchange rate difference, we have a positive result from the quarter. It is a positive in this first quarter as compared to a negative result in 2024. This is due to the appreciation of the euro. We have to remember that all tax assets that are to be recovered from Germany are in euros. They are not covered, and this generates this exchange rate difference, which was positive in this case. Taxes, expenditures were quite lower because we received this dividend from Germany, and that is how we closed the quarter with 149 million. This is the same. This was the level of retentions and tax credits paid in foreign countries closing in March of this year. The total current assets was $127 million and non-current assets, $135 million. As I mentioned, given the recovery of retentions and given the dividends that were received from Germany, the amounts will vary a bit. Look at the total retention number of EUR 487 million, because in the next slide, we can compare those with the EUR 520 million that we will have as of March, closing of March. In this chart, you can see the exchange rates that are mentioned, but we basically went on retention number 3 from non-current to current. Points 6 and 7, we can see the dividend that was paid by Hapag-Lloyd to CSAV Germany. Then from CSAV Germany to CSAV Chile, this generates two retentions. On the other hand, we have the recovery of dividend on the level of CSAV Germany that generated another retention on a CSAV Chile level. We have EUR 520 million to be recovered today. When we look at the balance sheet of the company and the total assets as of December was $7,500 million, and it increased to $7,600 million. The main changes were a lower cash flow due to operational expenses of the company, appreciation of assets due to the effect of the euro, appreciation of liabilities, the results of Hapag-Lloyd in the investment account under the participation method, and others. On liabilities increased to $284 million. Main changes is the deferred taxes and the registry of the mandatory dividend associated to the result of the first quarter. Same thing for equity. Equity had an increase of $117 million, which are the results for the year, which is the $149 million profit minus the mandatory dividend of $45 million. Here, I want to tell you that during the first quarter, we opened a playground in a vulnerable school in San Antonio that you can see here in this picture. Children were so happy. Padre André Coindre School. We were working on this for four months together with the community to see the needs for this place. It was in very poor conditions, so we had great advancements done during March. We inaugurated this. We want to let you know on the voluntary initiatives that the company has here in Chile. With that, we want to wrap up. CSAV has a very solid balance. The results from Hapag are their main way of generating income. Also, in this period, we had fewer taxes, which, as I was telling you, during the second quarter, will increase with all the dividends brought from Germany. As of today, May closing, we have EUR 520 million of retentions receivable. From Hapag-Lloyd side, it has been a very exciting year. As we heard from Rolf, the first quarter was a very good quarter. In April, we had a dip in our loads due to all geopolitical problems and tariff problems that we saw from the main nations in the world, which came up to this 90-day truce with a lowering of tariffs, meaning that these last few weeks, the cargo has increased, and we want to see how this will be reflected in the results of this second quarter. With this, we go over to questions. Once again, you can either write them down in the chat or raise your hand and ask openly. We have one question about retentions. If EUR 120 million are net taxes, meaning they do not need to discount the taxes when received. The EUR 520 million will be received during, hopefully part of this year and the following year. It is two years that it takes for a return. This EUR 520 million has a deferred tax. This deferred tax is contrasted against expenses. That is why they are so high when we get dividends from Germany. It does not really have much of a result. Those EUR 520 million, over time. Every time we get a part of this income, we will have a 37% tax, and it will be available. We also have to remind that in the tax assets, we have a tax credit received and paid in Germany. One thing is the tax itself, and since we have a credit associated to our dividends, this makes it so it will compensate the flow payable for taxes. I also want to complement. I do not know if you can show the chart once again. Show the tax chart, Felipe, please. To understand the flow. This amount here. Show the updated one with 520. The question was regarding 520. If you see number 4, $140 million in retention going to Germany. When this is brought back to Chile, it will be retained once again, 26 point something percent, out of which 15% is tax, is real tax. The other 10% is retention. So $114 million is not what we receive in Chile. What comes directly to Chile is cash flow directly for CSAV Chile. $114 million, you have to deduct 26 when it comes from Germany to Chile. That 26 that we will pay, 10% will be returned for cash flow. I believe that is your interest. From what we pay in Chile, we have $224 million of credit for taxes paid abroad. From the cash flow standpoint, I have EUR 520 million. We have to look at this into long term. It is more so around EUR 500 million, because out of those, 15 will be taxes paid in Germany. In Chile, we will have to consider the tax expenditures dealing with the taxes paid abroad. It should not generate any effects in cash flow when this arrives in Chile. Only the accounting part of the first one. I do not know if there are any more questions. There we have a question of when do you expect these funds to arrive in Chile? Let us first talk about what we have more clarity on. The same point of $114 million. What has systematically occurred is that we have normally seen this during the first part of the following quarter. So this $114 million, minus the taxes coming out of Germany, they should be here next year, during the first half of the next year, to whatever expected. Regarding the other amounts, the information that we have is that the German tax authority has taken on, an average, 2 years for the returns. The average has a standard deviation, so we see a few flows that even have taken 4 years. If you look at the average, those first 2 cash flows, May of 2023 and August of 2023, will be 2 years old as of now. The $182 million, and we have not received that. In August, will happen during this year. Regarding probability, I would assign any probability higher for those flows than the others. We do not have any news this year, but it is based on statistics and no specific information. This tax activity has no relation with the taxpayers. There is no way of contacting them formally. Some sort of call center I would call, and this is very poor. So that's what I can say about the cash flows. With a high level of certainty, I would say those 114 million that will be coming into Germany should be coming back to Chile in the first 6 months of next year. We expect that those 183 and 51 first two flows can be recovered during this year. I say this with a lower level of certainty. Well, no more questions. There's another question regarding considering the NAV discount, if there's any planned purchase, any shares. In Chile, the repurchase of shares has to have a specific objective in Chile, other markets. As a company, we have not considered the repurchase of shares in the company. If we were to consider this, it should be proposed by the directorio. We have no news about that. If there are no more questions, then we can now wrap up this call. Thank you so much for participating. We apologize for the delay at the beginning of the call, but we had a small technical issue that hopefully will not happen for next meeting. Thank you so much.