Earnings Call: Q4 2017

Feb 7, 2018

Thank you for joining us here this cold morning in Stockholm. It's a full house here. Everybody in the webcam, it's a proud moment for me as the Interim CEO to present the full year and this amazing Q4 that has been produced, and it's been hard work for the team. So it's a proud moment for me representing them here today this morning. It will be me, Henrik Persson, who will be doing most of the presentation. I'm joined by our CFO, Claus Wenzel, who will go through some of the financial slides. So in summary of the Q4, our best quarter ever. We grew our revenues to $20,100,000 We had a 16% growth between Q3 to Q4. We had an adjusted EBITDA of 11.1 percent, which equals a margin of 55.5 percent. We saw a record breaking NDC intake with 113,000, which is also a 12% growth between Q3 and Q4. Highlights for the full year. Revenues coming in at €67,600,000 We grew the company 69% year over year. Adjusted EBITDA at 36.1 percent with an EBITDA margin of 53% and an NDC total of 386 1,000 new paying clients to our customers. It's a year on year growth of 88%. To give you a flavor, you can triple that. So we have closely sent over 1,000,000 clients to our partners over the year, which we are very proud of and what we believe is true market leader standard within the online gambling and hopefully soon to be also the financial vertical. I want to highlight that this is not a one man show. We're a great team behind this. At the end of December, we were 2 82 people full time. In addition to that, we were 140 journalists writing unique content on a daily basis on our assets. I believe that we, in many ways, have a Rockstar management team in place. You see a new a few new faces. You see our new Head of M and A, Marcus Nason, who runs up or heads up a team of 3 full time in our M and A team for the time being. We have, as of January, Asa Hilsten as our Head of Investor Relations. She will be taking over after Anne Rehmann as Anne is leaving us mid April this year. And we have Pierre Lene Olasund joining as Chief Financial Officer as of January, taking over after Claus Wenzel, who will leave us in mid May. These are just a few of the great people we have in the organization. Behind them, there is a a strong force of very talented people working out of our offices. Agenda, a bit about Catena and what we do. KPIs, financials, a bit of the product news in Q4 and Q1. We get quite a lot of questions about happening in the U. S. For the time being. So I will go through that in quite some detail in what's currently happening and then some key takeaways. Summary, as you saw, we moved in Q4. We also moved into financials, which means we have customers outside the online gambling industry. What we do, we build assets as we call them websites that will guide people to where they want to gamble or where they want to invest their money. All these sites are connected to something that we call you see it on the left big circle you call it Tatiana Core. That is the system where we do the content, the SEO, the product management. It's part of our secret sauce. We then run these assets, everything from SPAT, SCANDERS, PokerScout, Right Casinos, etcetera. We then send them over to some of our clients. It could be anything from CMC Markets, Ladbrokes, Bet365, Golden Nugget, Interwetten, etcetera. Give you a flavor in Q4 alone, we worked with over 1,000 brands. We charged them through 3 methods or for rev share, CPA, fixed fees or hybrids. And we only get paid once we have sent the client that has made a deposit to play or to invest. So we work on a no cure no pay basis. In many ways, we're equal to a lot of other lead generators in the market that you are familiar with. It could be TripAdvisor, Hotels dotcom, Price Runner, Lendo, Money Supermarkets. We try to advise and guide people where they should gamble or where they should invest their money. Identify the need, attract the visitor, promote, lead and we earn. Going back to the NDC number, which is the true driver of our revenue. As mentioned, we grew the company between Q3 to Q4 with 12%, reaching an all time high of 113,000 new depositing clients, a year to year growth of 88%, which I believe is quite astonishing. Looking at revenue growth. We did 16% quarter on quarter growth. We reached an all time high of €20,100,000 Out of the CHF 20,100,000 CHF 17,000,000 was on search revenue and CHF 3,100,000 was driven by PPC or paid media. Just a glimpse on the revenue and growth. We saw 20% organic growth during Q4. We saw a 28% year over year growth. We have seen a growth in revenue annual rate of 137% since Q4 2004. We believe we have a very good underlying business that clearly shows even in Q4 as it did in Q3 that we are able to acquire, integrate and take care of these assets. As of today, we have done 28 acquisitions where all of them are still live, active and generating revenue for us over the past 5 years. Singling out our search revenue, which is our true backbone on what we're doing, the traditional search through Google, Yahoo! Or traffic we don't pay for, as we say. We've grown that 93% Q4 to Q4. We grew at 17% Q3 to Q4, which is once again a very solid quarter on quarter growth, we believe. It also is a true foundation of what we do and our core knowledge and that we will continue to build on our search revenue. In Q3 was the first time we actually split out and started to report our different revenue streams from Sports and Casino. We have continued to focus on our sports. As you can see in Q4, we moved sports from 21% in Q3 to 29% in Q4. Casino is now 66%, and our new vertical of finance is already 5% of our revenue in Q4, which was also when we actually bought the assets. Looking at the revenue and how we split the revenue between the different models, rev share, CPA and flat fees. Revenue share was 60% in Q4. CPA was 32% and Flat Swiss was 8%. We've guided that these will change a bit. I think rev share should be between €60,000,000 €65,000,000 depending on season, depending on a few accounts. If there's a big win in one of the rev share accounts, it can vary. But we believe that we have stabilized that where we want to be around 60%, 65%. CPA will move between 20 5, 30. But also there can be one time events like happened this week. We had Super Bowl. It's a huge event where we can do specific CPA targeted campaigns. We have Olympics coming up starting this weekend, which is also an unique event where we can do customized campaign, where we prefer to do maybe in hybrid between CPA and rev share. And then we can see a CPA upswing during certain periods of the year. And our flat fees that comes in at 8%, which is a very solid ground for us to be on is our floor. It's listing fee that our operators pay to be on our main targets or main Tier 1 assets. Looking at EBITDA. Solid margin in Q4, 55.5%. We grew our EBITDA at 17% from Q3 to Q4, so in line with our revenues, which we're very proud of. We're continuing to grow our business, but still keeping and improving our margins. And Claus will now go through a few slides on the cost base. Yes. If you look at our expenses, what you can see here is that our operating cost as a percentage of sales has been very stable the last three quarters at 35%. What also have affected the last quarter is, of course, that we have grown the number of employees. A quarter ago, it was 245 employees. Now we're 282. Other effects we have had now in the Q4 is also the Q1 where we had full effect of our new office in Costa in Malta. And as you also can see, we have some one off costs in the 4th quarter related to some costs related to the listing change and also the change of the our CEO in October. If you look at the next slide, this is to try to or show how our financial costs are what it's based on. And you see the biggest amount there, SEK1.7 billion, that is the interest cost we have on our bond. The other one is the €900,000,000 is the fair value of our bond. That's also a cost. It's not a cash flow effect on it, but it has an effect of our financial net. And the same goes for the netational interest rate, which is based on our committed future acquisitions cost. And the last one, which is positive number of 900,000, is effects from foreign exchange during the quarter. There we are. If you look at our growth rates now, you can see the last 3 years. We have a sales growth of average of 113%, and our EBITDA results up 87% in average during these 3 years. And if you look at the growth rate or the run rate we have now, we are at 44 €500,000,000 in annual EBITDA result. Next slide here is the full year figures, a little bit the same as 2 slides ago, where we show our interest cost for the full year. And here, of course, as you can see, the main part is the interest cost on the bond. And then on the balance sheet, we have very solid balance sheet. Equity is €97,000,000 We have committed 7,000,000 We have committed acquisitions cost of €61,300,000 out of which 50% of this can be paid by our shares. And the short part of this within the coming 12 months is around €27,000,000 and the rest is longer time or about 1 year ago or in the future. I think that's Thank you. Next up, I'm going to go through a bit of the product news and what is coming and what we have done. As earlier announced and discussed, we moved into the financial verticals, specifically the trading verticals, which means stocks, bonds, CFDs and FX. That's where we're going to be number 1 before we move on to maybe other financial verticals or other lead generation verticals. We bought a company called Beyond Bits, a finance focused lead gen company in Germany. 5, 6 employees, roughly 2,000 NDCs per quarter €800,000 per quarter in revenue when we acquired them. Based out of Malta, these are now integrated, but they're still under earn out, but they're performing very well. I think that was a very key asset for us to come into this vertical. We're now building the organization internally to be able to cope with further expansion into this vertical. Our biggest acquisition to date, which was done in Q4, was Beybets, very strategic into Germany, sports, rev share heavy, very solid team. The 23 man strong team has now moved into our MOLF offices, working from our premises. They don't have a 2 year earnout, but we still have a very integrated way of working, and already supporting some of our other German assets. So we believe we have a very strong German team in house now, opening the way to further expansion into Germany, which we believe is the core market for Sports and Casino in Europe. And a few other acquisitions we have done. We bought in 2 product called PokerScout, one of the oldest domains within poker. It was a strategic purchase for us for the U. S. Market. It has been the go to page for a lot of the industry over many, many years. Some unique softwares and statistics that we're now utilizing in our American push. Skokka, one of the biggest new sites for sports in the U. K. We took over during the quarter in Q4. A huge fan base, a huge Twitter following, but it was run as a newspaper, not as a lead gen company. We are now transforming their traffic into a traditional lead gen as our other assets. We integrated them onto Katuna Core, as I spoke about before. And so far, it looks promising. It's the 1st acquisition where we buy into the traditional news and trying to convert that into an efficient lead gen business. Events after Q4. We did the acquisition of DreamWorks, also a German focus, but the mix between sports and financial. It's also now partly driven by the Bebets team out of our offices with sites like Vettel. Vettel, Deutsche, FX broker. De performing according to plan. I've been getting a lot of questions on future financing and how you will continue our aggressive growth strategy. As we all know, we have a very good cash conversion. We have good liquidity position. We're generating good cash for every month. However, we announced this morning that we have appointed Carnegie Endangstige Bank to go through a refinancing of our current bond with a new bond. We believe as we are a mid cap company, we are a mature company or a much more mature company than we were when we did the initial bond. It will create bigger flexibility for us to take up even bank debt if we want to, a bigger frame that we can utilize as we continue to grow the company and see opportunities coming up. The work is launched today and the work of the roadshow starts on the 12th February and we aim to close the transaction during Q1. Talking about M and A. A bit of just a focus on where we're looking, which I think is important. We are continuing to look in the U. K. We look in Germany. We look in France, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Australia, Japan and the U. S. So quite a broad focus, but most of these countries are regulated. We focus much of our efforts on regulation In our online gambling, lead gen business today, 60% of our revenue is regulated, which we believe is the highest regulated part of revenue in the gaming industry or gaming related industry as well. Our strong 3 man team is out scouting the globe in these regions now for M and A targets, and we have a very interesting pipeline. To round off, let's jump into the big country of the U. S. A lot of things are happening, and I wanted to give you a snapshot of where we are today and what we believe will happen. So New Jersey, one of the biggest markets and we are the largest and most profitable portfolio in New Jersey where we have our own license. Estimated, the online gambling market was €250,000,000 in 2017 and is estimated to be €300,000,000 in 2018. I've said it before, we have so far only been able to do CPA, but we have now sent in the application early 2018 for a rev share license, which we're very hopeful about and we believe we would be one of the first to actually get one if we do. Nevada, we are one of the significant affiliates for that for poker. There is possibility that Nevada will expand into include casino games in the future. Our key customer there is World Poker Series. Key assets would be Play Nevada, Play USA, PokerScout, Online Poker Report and U. S. Poker. Pennsylvania, as we spoke about during Q3 report, it got regulated or the bill got signed in the 30 October. We expect that, that we see revenue coming from Q3, Q4 this year. Other, we are actually active in daily fantasy sports, where we have a top tier assets. And Catena recently launched a partnership with the Michigan Online Lottery and realized our first revenue during this product here in 2018. On the down left, you see some of our key sites within the U. S. Currently and some of our key markets or key products or and key customers. Okay. So what seems to be happening in the U. S. As we look now? We're expecting a Supreme Court decision on sports betting in the first half of twenty eighteen. Around 20 states are expected to consider the build if the decision is positive. We see that the NBA and MLB now support regulated sports betting and are advocating for the inclusion of mobile sports in all state bills. First state to regulated sports betting market could launch in late 2018 and market is forecasted to be €6,000,000,000 revenue by 2023. That is both online and offline combined. We are well positioned with our assets and our Play New Jersey brand or Play NJ. And when we look on the state level, we have we now see movement in 6 states, everything from New York, Michigan, Illinois, Royal Island, Massachusetts and Connecticut, where we all there is something can happen in 2018 already. So as a spiral effect from what happened in Pennsylvania, we're now seeing that a lot of more talks is going on in the U. S, which we are prepared for. In most of these states, we have ranking assets that we're not monetizing on for the time being, but we are prepared for the launch. We're currently 14 people full time in the U. S. So a bit for us, but something that we already have significant revenue from and are well positioned. Okay. Some key takeaways. We see continued strong underlying growth with record revenues and profit. We have scaled our organization to make the next big jump and further expansion. We have a strong M and A pipeline. We're ready to push further into Sports and Finance. And we're happy to announce the new financing, which will open up even more doors for us and for our shareholders and for our expansion into further markets and also further into finance and sports. Thank you so much for coming. I open up for questions, which I guess there will be a few. Thanks very much. Maybe I should start with 1 or 2 questions. If you look on Q4 second half for twenty seventeen, is there any products, regions that stands out positively and negatively versus your plans that you could elaborate a bit on? What movements do you see compared to what you thought? I think we have we work we try to work with a system where we would have no country that would stand for more than 10% of the revenue. We work with a thesis that no assets should be generating more than 10% of the revenue and no market that should be more 10% of the revenue. I think we have a very nice diversification. However, as always, there is seasonality in some of the assets, some perform better than others. But overall, we have a very healthy mix in our product portfolio through Sports and Casino and our Financials as well. And on that last note, when you look on the Casino Sports Finance and think a few years out, where do you see the ideal split? Or is that the wrong way of thinking of it? I think our ambition is we believe that there's a lot more to do in gambling. We just scratched the surface and we see that when we're out looking now as well. Financial is interesting because it's what we started 5 years ago when consolidating online gambling, it hasn't really started in the financial vertical. So there is a lot of small and even big ones, but nobody is taking the grip of the industry. So we believe that we can be that force, where we can continue to grow the financial sector quite fast. We also see that the financial we look on the traditional industry, the banks are losing a lot of traffic to the new platforms, and people are getting more engaged in their own investments instead of calling their traditional stock broker maybe. They're now going on to these newer very user friendly platforms to invest in stocks and bonds or even FX. So there's a trend switch from traditional to more online platforms, which favors us. And I mean, clearly looking at the numbers, they are very impressive. And the target you've outlined for a bit longer term is also ambitious and impressive if you reach it, of course, or even if you get close to it. But still, so I'm just thinking a part of the journey is going to be M and A and you announced a few things past few months, quarters. And just wondering how much do you integrate and how do you ensure that you keep the momentum in the both companies and control in terms of process organization? No, but I think we have done over 5 years, 28 acquisitions. I think we have become we have mastered how to integrate assets. We have mastered how to integrate staff. We have also built a software that can cope with integration and scale quickly. How we did deals back in 2014 and how we do them today is quite different, but it's also because we're much more mature today. We have more advanced systems and we have more advanced and thorough processes on how we actually integrate. We look at between 5 10 cases a week, and we have still only done 28 acquisitions only in 5 years. So we are selective. We will only pick the ones where we see that it has a good rev share. It has a unique position in the market or a new market. It needs to add clear value to what we have. We are not in this for just a multiple arbitrage. We're buying products and systems and assets that we really like and that we believe will grow long term. So clearly, you have a lot of things pointing to that revenues can continue and grow, grow, grow. And when you look on costs, you showed here cost to sales and different metrics on the different lines. How should we see 'eighteen or a bit longer if you want to answer it that way instead in terms of where that ratio should go up, down, flat? I think we know for the past three quarters has been between 34% 35% in our cost of sales. But we have also you must remember that we came in at 2.17 without around 100 staff, 105, I believe. We closed off the year with 282. We have moved from Stockholm First North to NASDAQ Mid Cap, where we have scaled up organization both in terms of compliance, but also towards compliance when it comes to regulated markets. We have increased our workforce in terms of seniority. And we've also gone into new markets that requires language skills, unique language knowledge and connection with our customers. For us going forward, we will need to add staff when we go into a new country. But we are in a base now where we're very happy. We've built up a true force of nature that internally now we will have to grow it as we grow, but I don't think we will need to grow it at the pace we have done. Do we have any questions from the room? Stefan Knutsen from Remyon. Your paid revenue is now down to 15%. How do you see the long term split of search and paid revenue? When it comes to paid, we're quite optimistic, I must say. We do it when we see that there is value in the market. We could probably push that quite a bit, but that would also squeeze our margin. We our core business is Search. We do paid because when we see that there is a gap in the market and when there is an opportunity. As you've seen, it's been quite flat for the past quarters. But it will be seasonal more than anything else going forward. So we can expect that, example, during the World Cup, it would probably pick up? That should, yes. We'd normally by big events, CPA would go up. But it's also a matter of prices also go up during big events. So when we see that we can get the margins, we would do it, but naturally they will be more heavy during big events. Okay. Thank you. Well, I just got my question answered. So I'll turn over to the next one. Do we have any questions on the call? One here. Oh, sorry. I have a couple of questions. Can you tell me about the development of Ask Amblers and John Slotts in new countries that you've gone into, Germany and Italy? Yes. No, we during 2017, we started because we have a few really big Tier 1 assets where we saw a gap that we actually could roll them out to new markets. We did that with John Sosk and Escambers. These are 2 very big assets. It takes time for them, but naturally we are seeing good progress. It will time for the search engines to pick them up in the new countries, but we are coming in a lot faster than we would if we would have built something from scratch in those countries. So we see a positive trend going into that, and we will continue to roll them out in more countries. We're now seeing that New Jersey has 2 more licenses coming up, Hard Rock and Ocean Resort. Is it something you're looking forward to or possible partners? We have very good relationship with both. They will for sure expand the market because it will be a new customer or 2 new customers. Hardwick, which is an amazing brand, the global expansion for them, they are in a lot more states and we are already in discussion with both of them. And how do you see Pennsylvania compared to New Jersey? Because Pennsylvania is a bigger state, and they're having, I think, 13 licenses. And I think it's going to be a bigger market. What's your thought on that? Over time, I guess it will be. New Jersey has they've already lived. It's already operational. But in the long term, Pennsylvania, due to numbers, should be a bigger state. Thank you. Operator, any calls on the line, questions on the line? Thank you. Our first question comes from the line of Victor Hagenberg from Pareto Securities. Please go ahead. Your line is now open. Yes, good morning. Could you put future acquisitions into the context of current debt levels, possible new refinancing of the bond and the existing contingent considerations? Sorry, can you take that a bit slower? The future acquisitions, you put them into the context of your current debt, net debt, the new possible refinancing of the bond and the existing contingent considerations in the balance sheet? For future acquisitions, we will continue the strategy, and I spoke about that. It comes to the new bond, we have, as we said in the 2020 target for €100,000,000 EBITDA. We have a net debt to EBITDA of €1.5 and €2.5 that we will stick to. We said that we will be able to move out of it during very short periods of time if we find that we need to. But it will also be reflected in the new refinancing of the bond that we're doing now. Okay. So did you see any in the upcoming year, do you see any market dynamic changes ahead with your or affiliates in general, the relationships with operators? If we start with the online gambling side, we don't really. We get quite a lot of questions what's happened when a country gets regulated. We have been through that quite a lot now with 60% of our revenue regulated. The dynamics hasn't changed much. The only thing we see is that we're getting closer and closer with the operators. With many of our big customers, we're actually part of their rollout plan when they go into a new country. We sit with their management discussing on how we can assist them. So from our end, as the market leader and the biggest lead generator for online gambling in the world, we become a natural partner for them going forward. And even in countries like in the U. K, where we now see that UK Gaming Authority is taking quite an active approach on how the operators market themselves. And it also put the squeeze on the affiliates, Most of the ones that has been announced in the market as tightening with their affiliates, we are actually getting closer with, because we're very transparent on how we run our business, which is required from the U. K. Gaming Authority. Okay. So you haven't lost any clients on Leighton? No. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And as there are no more questions over the phone, I hand back to you speakers. Any on the emails or anything? Okay, so just on the finance part, you said trading, can you give some more examples so we can think where you will find opportunities in the finance? Explain that a bit. Yes. As I said, we target the financial trading tools like FX, CFDs, bonds and stocks. We work with most of the platforms that are now our customers, if it's Saxo Bank, CMC Market Plus 500, Etor, E Trade, We work with all of them. We just started to look into Germany that we really only started to look into it. We're now building the team internally, which was based out of London, where most of our customers are based or have subsidiaries like in Malta, which has become the hub for online gambling and the gambling operators, the same as in London. The dynamics is the same. We get paid the same through rev share, CPA, hybrids. The big difference here is the customer lifetime value is a lot higher. I think we touched on that during the Capital Markets Day where we on a CPA level, we get paid something between $800 $1200 while in gambling, we get between €200,000 €400, depending on market and depending on product, if it's casino or sports. So clearly, the value of the customers are still a lot higher, which also represent that you probably would want to do a bit more of the rev share over time. You wouldn't get the steep upswing as you would do on the CPA, but long term, you build a very solid business. And that's what we are happy with today, in that we have 60% to 65% of our revenue through rev share, between 6% to 10% in fixed fees. So we believe that we have built a very sustainable business over time. And that's why we also like the financial sector. We see the search terms for finance is going up quite rapidly. It's clear that people all over Europe, primarily where we've been looking now, take a more active role in their own trading. And we want to participate in those industries where there's clearly a lot more room for growth going forward. But it's in the trading part and it's in more the retail part than in the institutional fund side of the world? It is. But I think we will also see the more traditional banks coming in as customers as we as they get more ready for it, I would say, for affiliation. The online platforms, the new one are a bit more advanced when it comes to that already and are already seeing a lot of their traffic coming from affiliates. And I forgot one question. The finance part, are you only going to be buying financial companies? Or are you thinking about building something in house? We are actually already doing that. We are working on a product called Ask Traders, which is coming from Ask Gamblers. So it's a product that we're working on internally. So we are building our own assets as well. But we see a clear gap in the market and we don't want to lose time. So the fastest way for Apti are operational and is to buy into new markets, consolidate them into Catena core and use them with our assets as well that we do internally, but we are building internally. Hello, Danke Siljeberg. Great report. First question is, looking forward, the revenue mix, what would you say would be casino, sports book and finance going forward, as we guess? It's quite hard to guide. It will depend a bit on how we acquire going forward, I would say. Organically, we know that we're going in the pace we are and that we have guided the market on. There is naturally quite a few big sports event. We have the Olympics starting this weekend. We have the Cheltenham horse race in the U. K, which is a very big event for the U. K. We have the Football World Cup coming up this summer. So naturally, it's a very strong sports year, which should our organic growth should be driven quite heavily by these events. Then there's always unique events that comes up, big boxing events that gathers a lot of traffic for a week or so that we get. And if they happen in our core markets, we see an upswing in that market during those weeks. But we haven't guided anything on the future. Second question is that are you looking into other verticals than those 3? We scanned quite many. We scanned up to 20 before we took the decision. We will now try to be number 1 in what we're doing. And when we feel that we are that and when we have the capacity, we will look at other verticals. We are a lead generator. We can lead traffic wherever we want. So we can use the systems and the knowledge we have. It just have to make sense. The timing has to be right. But I believe there is so much we can do and what we just started. So I want to do that good before actually take on more. So if you look on just acquisitions, just two more questions. If you look on the acquisitions you make and have made in terms upfront payouts over time, multiples, how is that changing and what do you think will change ahead given how you shift in products and categories and so on? Is there any big shifts in how In how we structure the deals? Or just how you pay or what how much you pay or I think you what you want to come to is the multiples. If we see them changing, we have normally paid between 2 and 6. We paid 4.2 or 4.3 for EBITDA upfront motive of our Baybets, which was our biggest acquisition so far. Germany, where all our clients pay taxes and VAT. So it's very much working as a regulated industry, all sports. I think we don't see the multiples going up right now at least. It's hard to foresee what's going to happen in 2 years or 3 years, but right now we see the levels being fairly the same. In terms of how we structure, sometimes we pay all upfront. We do that when we feel that we have the capacity and we can do the work actually better in house faster. For Baybets, we did a 2 year earn out due to the fact that the team in Baybets are amazing. We wanted to connect them to the company. We wanted to make the founders big shareholders of Catena for to continue expansion into Germany and the DACH region where they are very strong, which is already proven in some of the acquisitions we have done, which has been leads coming from the organization itself. So it's always going to be a mix on what we believe is the right for the company at that point in time. So far, it worked very well for us, But we don't see a change in dynamics when it comes to price or how we have structured it in the past and how we will structure it in the future. Okay. So you answered both questions at the same time. So no more for me. Okay. Thanks very much and congratulations on a Thank you.