Status Update

Jun 3, 2021

Hello, everyone, and welcome to today's update. I'm terribly sorry about the delay. We had some severe technical problems here. Hopefully, it will work now, and then you will be able to hear me in the beginning, and then you will be able to hear our CFO, Korm Lander, and our head of Netbook, Fieri Geyling. So the setup is that call will start with some discussions, point with together with Fierke Eiger. And at the end of today's discussion then, we will open up for a Q and A. So if you would like to ask questions, call 1 of the numbers that you now can see on the screen, and press 01 on your push button phone. And please focus the questions around topics within the network business. So and with that, I would like to hand over to you, Karl, please. Thank you, Peter. And before we move on, given technical difficulties, confirm that you hear me, Peter. Good. Okay. Fantastic. Great. Sorry again for this, but let's go from now on immediately into the content. And first of all, Fredrik, great to have you here to talk about networks. And, okay, let me see if this works now. It seems that, we still have a sound problem. There must be something very strange going on in the networks today, not in the networks business as such but in Okay. So today, Frederic and I will discuss what is going on in the networks in Ericsson, including such factors as the market growth in different geographies, but also how we handle the development within ORAN virtualization. We will also discuss a little bit around, of course, the impact of COVID and what has changed, if anything, in the network's strategy, how we are tailoring product portfolio and some of the new items that we are launching right now. And hopefully, we will get to a really good Q and A, as Peter was saying, also, sooner rather than later. And I can tell you that we still do have some technical issues here. So, hopefully, we will get on stream very soon. Let me see if we now have you. Fredrik with us. Yes. Can you hear me, Carl? I can. And, exactly, I can. Fantastic. Very good. So, Fredrik, great to have you here. And finally, it seems like the stuff is working for us. But I wanted to dive in then, Fredrik, and talk about the market in different geographies. And now we've all seen Deloros latest report, they're upgrading the growth for 2020, that's already a fact, but also the outlook for 2021. And we saw 10% globally, now is the expectation, 12% North America, 9% Europe, for example. And what's your view here on this increased prediction and how do you see this pan out in the different geographies, Frederic? No, thanks. And I do sincerely hope that you can hear me and apologies from my side as well. We are twenty three minutes into it, but we'll do the very, very best out of it. No. Look. I think, five g, we're about twenty two, twenty four months into five g, Carl, and and I think as a as a technology, it is the fastest growing generation of all technologies. I mean, that's typically the case. Four g was faster than three g. When it comes to when it comes to five g, it's largely driven by the fact that it is happening across multiple continents at the same time. So you have four gs started really in The US with a select number of customers, and then it evolved. Here we have both China and US and other geographies happening at the same time. Now that's one factor for stepping out quite significantly. The other one is that there is a multitude of an ecosystem developing much quicker than it did for four gs. And ultimately, that combined with the handset availability drives the technology, so to speak, in early phase. So I would say, general, we see a quicker uptake of five gs for that reason. Now if we then look at the various, and so but I think it's fair to say that it's fairly early on into the technology of five gs. And we see, of course, mobility broadband case coming into play as a start. That's typically what we used to. And the consumer segment constitute a major of the revenue to traffic today, but it was designed for industries five gs, and that is also happening now. We see the digitization opportunity happening and growing much faster than the mobile broadband case, and that's why we designed five g to to take out that opportunity. So I would say that on the back of that, we see then a general, I would say, a general upwards adjustments of the the various terms of terms of the forecast, to your point then, Carl. And we saw about 16% growth in 2020. And And if you take away China from that for a second, it'll be about 67% growth, and we grew about 10% in that market. And then you see 2021 growing about 10% expected. And I think it is for the two reasons that you need an alternative for four gs for consumers, and we also see a longer tail end than of five gs on the basis of now starting to see the results of building a digitized infrastructure based on five gs and it's becoming the critical infrastructure. Now maybe a couple of points on the markets. In North America is driving driven by by an early high band penetration compensating for, or or, you know, supporting the mobile broadband use case. We see a bigger uptake now on the back of the c band or mid band coming into the into The US right now. And we see the North America growing by 12%. And Europe is growing a little bit, and the good news in both is Europe is growing precisely expected 9%, I should say. But in both these markets, we are we are taking market share, which, of course, rewarding for us on the back of investments we do. China slowed down a little bit 2021 on a massive build out, I would say, during 2020, a little bit north of '10. And the other markets, say, India and Japan, Taiwan, you know, coming through and Korea were built about a year back. So it is, it is a technology that promises both the mobile broadband case, but the tail end of the technology is extended with the industry use case, I would say. Amel, that's great. It's I must say it's, of course, very encouraging for us to see how five gs is really, picking up speed in more and more geographies. Still, as you say, it seems like we are only in the beginning actually of this cycle. And of course, the enterprise side of five gs, we haven't really seen translate into so much business yet, but that's, of course, a big part of the entire case here. Also, I think now we have one point five year of pandemic and the impact of that on the global economy and on our society, of course we have seen how important connectivity is now during this period more than ever before. So I wonder, Fredrik, when you look at the strategy for networks then, has it changed coming out of the experience from this pandemic time in 2020 and so on? Any changes that you have seen in your priorities or strategy going forward? No. I think in times like this, Karl, I mean, the health and well-being of our employees that have to a very large extent been working from home, networks, and we've been we try to get look at the positive experiences from that. Of course, we have manufacturing and hardware development personnel being on-site, so we try to make their environment safe there. In terms of immediate factors, there is, of course, elements on on the supply chain that we need to plan for. Lead times are longer. There have been lockdowns and both in service delivery as well as in planning for supply and manufacturing, we have to on extended lead times, buffering up inventories and we're also working with dual designs not to sit in one geography with critical components. We worked very, very heavily on that. So that becomes more of a short term. But I would say, Karl, that, you know, if you look at it, connectivity becomes an even more component of of our daily life. And, of course, COVID and the the recovery beyond COVID will largely be supported by investing in infrastructure, the critical infrastructure that five g constitutes. Now from a strategic priorities perspective, if you look at it because, of course, we we we are here for the medium long term planning, and and and I would say that short term, we we we have the same priorities as we discussed actually back some of you might have been on Capital Market Days back in 2017 when we talk about investing in technology for facilitating performance and cost leadership for our customers. We work on spectral efficiency, cost efficient solutions driven ASIC integrated circuit investments that we do, so that we will continue working on. We will continue a selectively expand market based upon that competitiveness with our customers. And with the better technology, we'll also get a better cost structure ourselves, and that allows us then to take this market. Now then, of course, our paradigm is to make sure that you know, we we made sure that five g could be run on four gs equipment very early on, and that paradigm continues. So, you know, when we look at use case expansions that five g offers, we wanna do that with, the most cost effective way for our customers. So those three priorities, we we state to them a little bit of variation 2016, '17, and they'll still continue there. Yeah. Longer term, though, if I can just say two, three things, can't hit that. Mhmm. You know, for us to be successful long term as Ericsson, as an industry, we need to make sure that five g becomes the enterprise connectivity platform. That's something we're working very hard on as you as you know, and we talked about that Capital Market Day last year on making that digitizing enterprise. To do that, we need to densify and make sure that five g becomes the critical infrastructure, on the back of COVID, but also for, you know, providing the five g user experience that Mid Band also offers. And thirdly, it has to do with, in a world where where architectures are are driven in possibly a bit different ways, we need to make sure the standardization evolution of networks are harmonized over time. So that's the third aspect we're working very hard. That will impact medium and long term for us. Right. So in essence, the experience from this year has deepened basically the strategy was set out, and it's proven even more relevant, I guess, for our customers and for us. And, of course, a very big part of the turnaround of Ericsson has come out of networks, not only, maybe I should say, but of course it's a major part. And it really comes out of all the investments we have done in technology to regain world leadership technology leadership and so on. If we talk a little bit, given what you said on strategy now, bit more on the product side then, what is it that we win business on, would you say? Can you elaborate a little bit on the product and benefits they bring to customers? Yeah. No. I I you know, ultimately, that's what we're for. That's that's what we do in the market. And I think, you know, a a basic foundation, as I said, have been our investment for technology leadership. And I must say, leadership could be a slight self serving and in the eyes of the beholder, and ultimately, it's really only when our customers rank us tech to commercially number one. That's when I can that's when me and my team discuss some level of technology leadership because then we've done something good. Otherwise, it could be, you know, a bit, a bit self admiring kind of a thing, but we focus on that. And and to that point then, we we we have seen that we've been awarded them by 86 out of about 162 live network in five g. So so we believe that, you know, if you if you look at what we've done and the growth we we we are currently at around 15% in q one, cleared for any currency, etcetera, it means that we we have achieved a a position of a leading position on five Now why is that then? Well, a couple of areas where we have focused and that we will take forward, by the way, and that is our choice of architecture and linked to that then our our development that we now call Ericsson Silicon system on a chip or whatever sort of name you want to apply for it. And that allows us to build very efficient mid band radio portfolio and baseband portfolio, allowing certain functions to be up in the radio head, and and that means that you we get an uplink performance that is up to 10 dB higher than competitors. And by putting that in play, you dimension a network to sell edge performance and the uplink performance translates into lesser sites and better performance on the edge. So that together with further integration means that we also now launched a a sixty four nineteen product as we call it, and it weighs in at 19 kilos, and it has, the power requirements of our customers and bandwidth requirements. So I think that is based on architecture, shows and proactive investments in AC capabilities. We acquired Kathrein a couple of years back, and that was the ambition to look at the site and make sure that we can integrate passive active antennas and reduce the site pressures to drive down costs for our customers and build better equipment for that. And then we're working a lot on on our industry, let's say, the digitalization of our, of our industries and the extension of service delivery to that, which becomes further completely automated and then digitized flows, and that drives the business leadership with our customers. So this is how to put it forward. We invested about 10,000,000,000 in in r and d. If you look at run rate 2020 over over 2016. And for that, we doubled our operating margin for about 15,000,000,000 to €30,000,000,000 So it has had a positive impact on our P and L as well. Definitely. One item here that you didn't talk so much about, but what I think or what I know customers are very eager and also the financial community, and that's around energy efficiency. Of course, it has to do with the entire sustainability agenda of the world and of us as a company and our customers. And I know you're we have we're investing significant money there as well to break the energy curve and so on. What's your reflection there? What do we bring to the market and how do the customers No, thanks, Colin. Thanks for putting that on the table. I think that our ability to drive and or design energy efficient pro product is very much a design criteria, primary design criteria for us. And when you build integrated solutions like we do with system on a chip, it allows you to to optimize the performance of any type of product, it being a radio baseband for energy performance. And that means that it's of course environmentally sustainability important, but it also offer an attractive TCO profile for our customers, of course. So if we compare then, we measure this in different ways and forms, both in our way of relative to competitors and in the sequence of how we introduce products on the market. And we see that we've achieved around 30%, 35% efficiency within ERS over Reagles and Radios is my latest portfolio over the previous generation. And then the target that we're to be 10 times more energy efficient per transferred five g over four g, so generation over generation then. And we have reached a bit northbound of that now. So and if we even take the sixty four nineteen product I was talking about, then then we achieve about 20% energy efficiency. And internally, over the previous generation, that's our fourth generation of massive MIMO products as such. And that's why we have such a high cadence to get down into a attractive customer cost and performance proposition. But I would also say, Paul, that, I mean, this is, in a way our our what I described before now and what we're talking about the energy efficiency partner, that's history. There are shaping trends that we, of course, look at when we try to define a portfolio that's attractive for the future as well. And for us, it's very much around geo supply chain. We talked about COVID being resilient in in a in a world with longer lead times that applies also for for reasons like geopolitics where we need to make sure that we can deal with any type of supply flow depending on on any sort of bifurcation of the world in the sense that we need to be resilient to supply in any type of market. So that's on top of COVID. And we have the latest development around the surge in demand for semiconductors. We're also working very hard on making sure that we have enough inventory and buffers to deal with the various type of demand situations. I think that's important. Then second part, which is important for us to work with this, what I spoke about before, new growth vectors, make sure five gs becomes the critical infrastructure. And the third one, I would say, would be open as a cloud where where we where we launched our cloud run platform end of last year, and we will you'll hear a lot more about that in the next period of time, I would say. And, that's important for us. It's a very promising technology for us with different use cases. So these are just some of the things that we need to for us to stay relevant, we cannot only look backwards. We need to look into and adjust and be ahead of the curve when it comes to other external impacting factors as well. Lucas, thanks. That's great, Frederic. And now you touched on a couple of things that are among the frequently asked questions, I would say, that I also get, including semiconductor, a global shortage, you addressed that. Also the O RAN, maybe just and we should round off very soon to allow for questions. But maybe just one when it comes to Open RAN virtualization and so on, sometimes there's a little bit of confusion perhaps around these different concepts. Can you quickly guide us a little bit, sort out the differences and how we are actually addressing the different areas? Yeah. No. It's a good question, Carl. And sometimes it's also even, it is slightly confusing in the market when the terms are used interchangeably. I mean, Open RAN and it's it's more of a it's not a standard, it's industrial charm, including various aspects, a clarification, automation, and the Northbound in terms orchestration and management. But it also includes, call it, an open RAN internal interfaces. So it's a lot of flavors to to open RAN. And the ambition for it is to allow separation separation and disaggregation of hardware and software with open interoperable interfaces. You know, what the market is looking for then is supply chain diversity, solution flexibility and other capabilities, etcetera. Now, we've been very active in developing and participating in, what we call the, the virtualization through Cloud Run. And as I said before, we see that as a very promising technology here, and that, by the way, disaggregates hardware and software. And it allows also for an orchestration, standardized open orchestration management interface, let's call it a northbound, That we're very much participating on, and and it we we believe this technology deployed in various assets across various, you know, service, various open private clouds, open public clouds, etcetera. It is a technology that offer offers a lot of evolution. So I would say we've been part of, the principle of openness and and increasingly open, architectures. And, again, Cloud Run is an evidence of that. But as a leader over the past hundred forty five years, we we work with our customer, continue to innovate and respond to what they want, which typically are high performing energy efficient secure networks. And in some cases, integrated solutions are what's here and now that can offer that. The other technologies are emerging, so it becomes something with the urgency of five gs to be rolled out. That needs to be done with existing technology, which, will ultimately form then a critical part of national infrastructure, as I said before. Mhmm. Exactly. And so that's good to know. We are at the table. We are pushing development there as well and invest our own resources, of course, also in emerging technologies, while at the same time we have more than 80 live networks now powered by Ericsson equipment generating revenue for operators today, so we shouldn't forget that as well. But that's great. I think, given the fact that we started so late, I think now we open up for questions and answers. And Peter, please take it from here. Thank you so far, Frederic. Let's see if there are questions. Yes. I will unmute. We heard you for a second, then you went on mute, I think, Fred, Peter. Now you're on mute. We can't hear you, Peter. I hear Carl. Can you hear me now? Yes. Now we hear you. But it rains four, so stay safe. And I guess this was more a simple, issue with the mute button. I got a mute. I can't hear, Peter. Okay. That's strange because I'm not unmuted. Let's see if I can, you can hear the audience at least. So let's start with the Q and A here. And, I think I have the first question here from Frank Maue from DMP. Frank, can you hear me? Yes, I can. Good, Frank. And see now if it works. Let's so Frank, please, you are on the line so you can ask a question. Okay. Thank you. Thanks for the opportunity. Well, Ericsson recently disclosed an additional risk factor to related to the bond program relating to China. Not expecting you to comment on that, but could you please remind us of what you have what your comments have been in the past when it comes to the profitability profile of your sales in China, what so that investors can gauge the potential risk of potentially losing market share partially or entirely in the country? I mean, that's my first question. So if you could comment on that, whether it's marginally positive but gradually increasing or whether or not it's closer to group levels at some stage here in a couple of years, that would be excellent. And then I'm referring to gross margins actually. And secondly, on ORAN, if you could comment on whether or not you see these reference designs for radios that have come out of Qualcomm, Marvell and filings over the past half year as something that's kind of shifting or accelerating the the the open RAN or O RAN space going going forward with potentially more more kind of disruptive of radio alternatives coming in with reasonably good specs that can be deployed? Thank you. Should I start, Karl? Or do you want to go? Yes, yes, exactly. Thanks, Frank. I think if you take the Oran piece, can if you like, I can also answer the China question. Of Please go ahead, Freddy. No, I can start with you, Oren. And you're right, there is a multitude of reference designs coming out on the market. We should have seen that there is a time to market aspect of this and the and the readiness of these type of solutions. And, if you look at the lower, they look at around 15% by 2025 of total volumes being being ORAN. So there is a there is an aspect of of time here, and that that goes back to the point that we have a five g technology that constitutes critical infrastructure that we believe needs to be built out right right at this point in time. So that's that's on the on on the the the the the ORAN part. And as I said also that when we look at ORAN, there are elements here that we are engaging with our customers on, and that is, the, the Cloud Arm part of it where we look at disaggregational hardware and software being being an important part. I think also over time, there is an aspect here of, making sure that standards and interfaces are harmonized over time to my previous point. That's important that we keep this industry together, for global competitiveness and, we all know what constitutes the basis of 8,000,000,000 connected devices that has to do with one standard, one technology that, everybody can scale and participate in. And by the way, 3GPP offers that today. So, that's on that point. Then China, of course, Karl, shall I hand it over to you and, you can take that? No. Yes, I can do it. And I, thanks for the question, Frank. When it comes to specific profitability per region and so on, know that we don't really go into much detail. But what we have said, just to remind everyone, is that in the beginning of the five gs era in China for us, we had challenging margins and even losses. We communicated that. Of course, we had a business case to turn that around and that we also delivered on. So the contracts that we are delivering on are generating profitability and are on track on our own internal business case. So that's all good from that point of view. And China, I mean, from a top line point of view, as you know then, probably it's about 8%, of our total group turnover. And so let's see. And I mean, we communicated this risk. We wanted to say that the risk has increased given as signals will pick up in the market, including what's stated in in Chinese media and so on. That is not to say that something concrete has happened or that we have additional information. We we will see how the upcoming tenders actually develop over time. Great, Carl. Thanks, Frank. We will move to the next question. And I think that one is from Alexander Petrich at Societe Generale. Alexander, can you hear me? Yes. Hi. I can hear you very well. Can you hear me? Great. Yeah. Yes. Hello? So go ahead, Alexander. Good. Good. Excellent. Excellent. Thank you. Can we just come back a little bit on the on the Samsung settlement? If you could tell us what is the current IPR run rate beyond the second quarter with the catch up? So what is the run rate that we should model going forward? And how much is still there to be resolved in terms of ongoing IPR renegotiations or disputes? Can we model at any point in the future a return to the next 2,500,000,000.0 per quarter in IPR or not? Thanks a lot. Thanks, Alexander. Yes, I'll take that as well, Fredrik, and let's see if there are additional questions on networks now that we have Fredrik here. But on the IPR, yes, the run rate, if we look at the contracts now then, it's you get if you use the numbers provided, you get to around €6,600,000,000 Then we have a couple of renewals ahead of us, as you know, under negotiation, and they will then help close the gap back towards the €10,000,000,000 level again. And there is also a currency aspect, and let's say with a currency change of around 10%, that represents about €1,000,000,000 of that of the 10,000,000,000 actually downwards. And the final point to mention there is this one particular variable contract we have on IPR where volumes for that device manufacturer have gone down and that impacts our revenue. But long term, of course, our ambition is to get back to the $10,000,000,000 level and monetize our patent portfolio as good as we can. So I think that what we can say, the Samsung agreement creates a good platform for the upcoming, renegotiations on renewals as well. Thank you. I want to have a quick follow-up on networks as well, please? Yes, that's good. Thank you. On yeah. Yeah. And so did you see any impacts from from what was going on in India on your development in the second quarter? My understanding was maybe that was one of the regions that was going to underpin growth quite a lot with a lot of rollouts in the current quarter. So did you see an impact there? Or is it business as usual for you guys? Thanks a lot. We do see an impact given the rather sort of tragic situation we are in India at this stage. So the pandemic situation, lockdown is impacting rollout services and it slows down some of the ongoing projects. But it doesn't impact the overall strong belief in the future development of the Indian market. But in the tragic set of events evolving there, although slightly better now than last few days, it has impacted our rollout. And so yes, there has been an impact. Thanks, Alexander, and thanks, Fredrik. We will move to Peter Knutson at ABG. Peter Knut, can you hear me? I can, Peter. Thank you, and thank you very much for doing this. Please go ahead. Just thanks a lot. Just two quick questions, please. As you mentioned initially, market forecast market growth has been raised quite significantly, including quite significantly lift for North America, which is, of course, interesting. Can I ask, do you have any indications for seasonality here as to when this, large incremental sort of, growth is, will come on? Are we looking particularly towards the end of the year? Anything you can guide here because it is quite a significant uplift. And then may I just ask, it sounds like Brazil is getting ready now for five gs spectrum auctions. How do you feel you're positioned to gain a part of those contracts in Brazil? Thank you. It's hard to judge exact seasonality on within the year. To be honest, it depends on the C band orders have been completed. And of course, there is preparations for rollout now with all the major operators in The U. S. And what we see as an external growth, as we said, is about 12% through through Deloro. And it is on the basis of, all the three preparing a mid band rollout for for better performance. So that that is very much there on the basis of, you know, mid band spectrum being available. And so, you know, that that that's North American market. How that will fall between quarters, that that is, again, a little bit different. It's US is it's all three operators steaming up, of course, we need to make sure that their service delivery capabilities and the whole flow out to the market available. But we we guide overall that we we we, of course, wanna beat the market, and we have a, the market in itself indicated about 12% growth then. That that's probably between course is hard to say, to be honest. It's we'll be look at it a bit more sequentially long term to build build the business there. Brazil, also, very important. I I look quite positive on our abilities to gain significant market share in Brazil. Now, that is, of course, to be concluded. And and but we we we have very good and strong relationships in Brazil, and work very close to our operators and customers there. So, hopefully, we'll see the fruits out of this throughout the year here. Thank you, Fredrik. And Then we'll actually move to the last question of this session as we have to conclude this at 03:00 sharp. So that one is from Francois Bourguignet at UBS. Francois, can you hear me? Yes. Can you hear me? Yes. We hear you perfect. Great. Thank you very much for the call and the opportunity. That's very helpful. My first quick question is on, Frederic, your remark around the five gs. You said that it's early stage of five gs. Now I think we can agree that five gs has been stronger than expected in the maybe in 2021, and the interest has been very why you still think it's early stage in five gs? Or any data point you can give to prove this? Because we could think that five gs maybe is more fit to rural instead of urban at least, and maybe you can see a first phase. So my question basically is how you see the phasing of investment of five gs going forward after first phase that is quite strong? And the second question, OpenRun, I mean, like you said, it's very confusing. You hear a lot of things, and Rakuten is talking about 30% to 40% cost saving in terms of network. What's your view on the benefit on the cost side for your customer to adopt Open RAN beyond the readiness? What do you think the architecture can save to your customers? Thank you very much. Sure. So if we look at why I mentioned five gs been early on, that's more linked to the fact that it actually was accelerated to start with. If we really look at the non standalone, it was accelerated. So we actually launched five gs probably about a year earlier than we expected for the reason of bridging the mobile broadband case and facilitate the offload for four gs for that. So in a way that that that is why we launched with non standalone quite early on. Then, you know, as I said before, also we designed five gs to connect the people with things and things with things. And those are the type of use cases we believe will extend the cycle of five gs investments in the market. And as a matter of fact, the reason becoming the critical infrastructure to be able to the enterprise and mobility use cases. So the technologies for providing that are linked to standalone. They are linked to the five g core, that then can facilitate the end to end network slicing, for example. And also the type of technologies we're deploying right now and see, by the way, very good results of this. We trial those in various type of industrial use cases. So in a way, what we've been twenty two, twenty four months into five g. It's largely been driven by fixed wireless no. By mobile mobile broadband and partly little bit fixed wireless access. And now we're stepping into the use cases in a very positive way for which five g was designed. So that's why I say that it's been still in the early phases what we actually ultimately designed five gs to take care of with the networks. So I hope that answers the first question. On five gs versus OBRAN, and again, we there is no doubt that if you build an integrated purpose built system on a chip that you're going to get the better performance and get the better cost profile in in in the network. Now, what we are talking about, if we look, for example, at the introduction of of Cloudgram, that offers other opportunities while they might not be sufficient on certain parameters on power consumption, for example, it offers the introduction of reutilizing a lot of hardware in the network. So we believe that there are merits and that's why we're forward with Lean on Cloud Run that there are applications in the network, call it, and more hybrid oriented where these type of technologies like Cloud Run and integrated solution will live, side by side. And it's also dimension against what kind of use case you will actually deliver. There are complexities in the macro networks that require certain type of processing with thereby certain system or chips. While for example in industry application, it may make a lot more sense to reutilize for cost efficient existing product and and and installed base of the servers or public cloud or whatever kind of edge solution the enterprise may have. So it depends. And the only thing we can say is that we work with all these type of technologies to make sure that our customers get over time the best performing, most cost efficient network. So it's likely to take care of a couple of these type of technologies over time. And and that's, again, we we drive certain aspects of Open RAN where we believe we will have a technology difference for our customers. And we discuss architectures very detailed with our customers. And a lot of just final part here, a lot of the automation and orchestration and management function, they're actively supporting, which will give those type of performance advantages that typically the ORAN community will talk about. And those are technically speaking a one zero one interfaces going up into an open standard to manage and operate up our network. So again, as you said, it's a complex grade of components of this. We decipher what we believe will get the best performance and architecture for our customers, And that's what we focus on. It includes CloudBrand. It will include integrated solutions as well. And over time, we will work with those two components ultimately to meet our customers' requirements. That's the most important thing for us. Thank you, Francois. We are on the hour. And I would like to thank Karl for moderating this session and Fredrik for answering all the questions, both from Karl as well as during the Q and A. And again, I'm terribly sorry for the technology. Sometimes the technology is not on your side. But hopefully, next time we will be on the lucky side of this. So please, thank you very much for listening today, and have a great day. Thank you all. Thank you, guys. Thank you all.