Good morning, everybody, and welcome to the interim report presentation for January-September for the Holmen Group. It's me, Henrik Sjölund, and Anders Jernhall, and we do the presentation together, and after that, we take all the questions you hopefully have. But we know you have a busy day today, so let's get started. We were able, in the third quarter, to reach an operating profit over a little bit more than SEK 1 billion , which is, in our view, a good result, thanks to board and paper especially, and also despite a bit challenging market situations and actually lack of wood to some extent as well.
Our industry, board paper and wood products, if you just take a look and see what we have done the last year, we have a return on capital employed of 16%, and over the last 10 years, we have been able to reach average 18%. Our financial position is strong, and remind ourselves that we, the last couple of years, we have been able to distribute back to shareholders through dividends and also share buyback program, amounting to SEK 6 billion . We have currently a net debt of 6% of equity, or SEK 3.5 billion , roughly, but let's go into our different business areas, and starting with the forest or more the wood market in Sweden.
We have discussed this quite a lot, last couple of years, and if you look at, say, the last two years at least, there hasn't really been enough raw material to feed the forest industry sector and the energy market as well, I should say. Same goes for the third quarter, where we again have seen increasing prices, sawlogs and pulpwood, and we are now at a level which is record high or 50% higher than three years ago. We are also in a situation, especially for sawlogs or for sawlogs, I should say, where we see that prices in the northern parts of Sweden are on a different level than in the south of Sweden, where they are extremely high. I'll come back to that a bit when we discuss wood products. Higher prices, Anders?
Yeah, these higher prices, of course, translate over time into higher profits. We've seen the cash flow from the forestry activities increase by 60% the last three years. Q3, if we look at that isolated, that's always normally a quarter where we thin more and harvest less, and that was the case this year, which takes down the operating profit. But we also made the final harvesting a bit lower than seasonally normal for a Q3, which took down cash flow a bit, and we had more silviculture actions in our forestry, which consumed cash flow, and that's the reason why the operating profit is not really affected much by that.
But the distribution between change in value and cash flow, where we have lower cash flow than normal in the third quarter due to more silviculture and less harvesting than normal. Back to you, Henrik.
Thank you. Renewable energy. We like hydropower and wind, but I think we had a bit of headwind in the third quarter. We had so low electricity prices, actually the lowest electricity price in Sweden in the last twenty years. The question is: How could that be? At least amongst the explanations, an important part of the explanation is that there were limitations in the transmission capacity from Sweden to other countries in the cables, other countries where electricity prices are higher than in Sweden. We could save a bit of water in our water reservoirs, but such low prices, Anders, it's not easy, eh?
No, they were not sufficient to cover the position, and in addition to these low prices, to a large extent due to the fact that electricity was landlocked, also the revenue that we generated from support services went down in this quarter. That normally stabilizes our earnings, but they were quite small this quarter. Back to you, Henrik.
Mm-hmm. Changing over to wood products, well, we discussed before that the log cost, especially in south of Sweden, has been very high in the third quarter, actually the last number of quarters, but now the difference is bigger than what we've ever seen before. If we then start by looking at the general market view, well, there is a weak construction cycle, and even though during the springtime, we normally see that demand picks up a bit, it happened also this year, and with that, prices came up a bit as well, but after that, now, in the third quarter, we see that prices came down a bit again, and where we are right now, we see prices moving sideways at best, at the same time as we see that the log cost is going up, and especially for our sawmills in south of Sweden.
Again, the difference is so big that it's really a challenge to run the sawmills in the southern parts of Sweden. Also remember that what we do is, in the third quarter, we consumed sawlogs that were harvested, say, six to eight months earlier. When we buy sawlogs today, we pay more than what we consumed in the third quarter. It's a kind of a bet on that the wood products market will come back, and with price increases, but we don't see it at current moment. Tough headwind.
Definitely. When you look at the margin per log that we use, that's the same level as, what? A year ago. So we're in the same starting point. Selling prices are a bit higher, log costs are a bit higher, but our volumes are a bit down. We don't run full in this kind of market, partly due to log constraints, and we're entering into a fourth quarter that is normally the weakest part of the year.
Correct. Moving to something which is, at least makes us a bit more happy at the moment. Board and paper, a very good performance. Let's start with a few words about our board business. If we start with a general view of the market, it's you can see on the chart that we said last year there was a lot of destocking going on. That's over for sure. But you can also see on the moving twelve bar that we are not back to where we were a few years ago, at the same time as there is a bit more capacity in the market as well. However, saying that, in the third quarter, we did really well in terms of production, productivity, also deliveries, and also a favorable mix, which we cannot expect to have every quarter. Prices, stable.
When we look into our own order books, well, even though I just said that we did really well in the third quarter, at least the current moment, it's not really enough to run absolutely full, and so we'll see how that develops. If we then move on to paper, after a quite big drop in demand in 2023, so far this year, paper demand has been more or less stable or moving sideways. But, you know, in this market, it's always some overcapacity, quite a lot actually. We have done well also here. We have been able, again, to put forward or move forward a bit in our market position when it comes to the niche products where we want to do more.
Overall, a good quarter, but also here, when we look into our order books, it's a bit of a challenge to see that we'll be able to continue running on, not 100%, because we don't even aim at that, but roughly 90% is our aim. Also here, prices in the third quarter and as we are today, they are more or less stable. Anders?
Almost getting tired of talking about the stellar performance from the paper division, and now actually it's combined with a very strong performance of the board part of this new division. As in the second quarter, half of the sales come from paper and half from board, and also they were equally weighted in contribution from EBIT, 50% from each part of this new combined business area. We commented in Q2 that we had a strong mix. Actually, it was even stronger in Q3, so it was a very strong achievement. Both paper, but especially the board division, enjoyed a strong mix and good volumes. On top of that, we had seasonally lower cost, SEK 80 million , normally lower than the previous quarter.
And taking this seasonally lower cost and good production efficiency and a strong mix, it took us up to a very strong quarterly number.
Maybe reminding on the maintenance shutdown we have in the fourth quarter, and also the rebuild currently going on.
Yes, as communicated previously, we're in the midst of rebuilding one of the paper machines at the Bråviken mill in order to produce packaging paper, and we're taking the annual maintenance shutdown as we speak in Iggesund as well. Taken together, these are expected to impact profit in Q4 by SEK 250 million .
Thank you. That's all we have. We're happy to take on questions. Please.
We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. You will hear a tone to confirm that you've entered the queue. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use only the handset when asking a question. Anyone who has a question may press star and one at this time. The first question comes from the line of Ephrem Ravi, Citigroup. Please go ahead.
Thank you. Sort of two questions. Firstly, on the board and paper, very good sort of results in this quarter, but looking forward to Q4, you're calling out sort of demand for consumer paperboard lower than normal in Europe for the third quarter. And during the third quarter, some of your peers have kind of called for even lower demand sequentially in the fourth quarter. So and then on top of that, you've got the maintenance shutdowns basically impacting earnings by about SEK 250 million. So would you say that basically the outlook for Q4 in this particular division could be kind of back to the levels that we saw in the second quarter in terms of operating performance?
And then, in terms of the wood products business, as you pointed out, kind of your log input prices are now rising, but you're not seeing that in your end products that you sell. Typically, what would be the lag between log prices and kind of the end product prices for your wood products, in terms of cost pass-through? Thank you.
... You take the board, and I, the other one.
Yes. You're right. We, as Holmen, had a very strong deliveries and mix, as I mentioned, in Q3. Actually, we had a good deliveries and mix in Q2 as well, and as Henrik pointed out, Q4, the outlook is a bit more challenging, and then there should be headwind for Q4 on top of the maintenance stops.
I think you have read the same information as we have that. And we feel it actually that luxury consumption, and we are a bit dependent on that with our very nice board, but it goes into that segment quite a lot, and it's not that easy. China is not consuming as they were before, and we are a bit dependent on that as well. When it comes to wood products, and when we buy the sawlogs and when we consume them, the lag is six to eight months, roughly.
Thank you.
The next question comes from the line of Robin Santavirta, Carnegie. Please go ahead.
Yes, good morning, and, thanks for taking my questions. Now, in terms of the sawn timber market, what are you seeing now in terms of demand going into Q4 and, and the winter, and also in terms of pricing? Should we expect, stable pricing despite the seasonal weakness, given cost support, or, or, or is it the typical decline, coming, going into the winter? And the second question related to sawn timber, is this what you alluded to, the higher the increase is still that we are seeing in log prices. I mean, are we now reaching the level where a lot of sawmills will need to stop producing in southern part of Sweden or even in the mid part of Sweden?
Or how will this dynamic, sort of, develop now, this winter and in the spring, in your view?
Good, good questions. Not easy to answer, maybe. If we start just by what I said before, when it comes to where we are right now in terms of pricing of wood products, so it's we are moving sideways at best. And the other question?
It's an oversupplied market globally, but log costs are high everywhere, so everybody's struggling, and you have surely seen that even in the U.S., you are taking downtime, while log costs are lower than in many other places, so it's a challenging market. Are people taking downtime in the southern part of Sweden? We don't see any signs on it. Actually, the production, if you can get hold of logs, even at high prices, on the margin, it makes sense, but sawmills in the southern part of Sweden is heading for a loss at these price levels.
Now, it's a bet on wood products prices coming up, in not too distant a future, but we don't see it yet.
Right, so maybe the first time point could be the seasonal high next year at the earliest.
We need to see a change in the construction cycle to... That, that's the best leading indicator on for this market.
Thanks. And finally, Anders, we had a good discussion earlier in our seminar. I think you sort of alluded to the point that softwood log prices are high in Sweden and in the Nordics, but essentially, they're not higher than what you can see in other parts of the world. Is that still the case at the moment? And does that also apply for pulpwood?
Mm-hmm. I can't really compare pulpwood, but you can look at the numbers of most people, and we do the math. Sometimes we prepare them. You still have quite a good margin if you run a pulp mill in the Nordics. Normally, we don't see anybody stopping buying pulpwood because it's too expensive. You stop buying pulpwood because you can't sell the end product. So the Nordic producers, generally speaking, they can afford to pay these pulpwood prices, although they have, in percentage terms, increased quite a lot.
More challenging when it comes to sawlog prices, of course. When we look at the statistics that we have available, then it looks like prices in Sweden today, well, slightly lower than in Germany. Depending on where you are in Sweden, in line with Finland, and then it's a different ballgame, I guess, when we look at the United States.
Yeah. Now, you're mentioning, and you're talking about sawlogs.
Sawlogs, yes.
Yeah.
So the point is, we need demand to get price, prices up. That, that's the key problem, essentially, not the wood raw material cost.
Yeah. You need to have a resurgence in construction activity.
I understand. Thank you very much.
The next question comes from the line of Lars Kjellberg, Stifel. Please go ahead.
Thank you. Thanks for taking my question. So, a couple of questions again, on the wood side. Curious why you reduced harvesting, considering the wood pressures you're seeing, and you called out, Henrik, potentially even lack of wood, so curious why you reduced your harvest. And the other question, of course, that comes into mind is when sawmills starting to take downtime, as you kind of doing to a degree, what does that do to the pulpwood market again? Because, of course, a lot of chips are coming from the sawmills. So curious how to think about that. And then you talked about good mix benefits in the board business, which is interesting, considering that you're more in the luxury segments, if you like, and that market has been particularly poor and potentially getting worse.
Interesting to see what has, you know, happened in that market that's given you that benefit of a better mix.
Should I start with the harvesting? I understand. I agree with your question, but what we do, actually, half- we, we have 100 teams working, machine teams working on harvesting, and we send them to our forest half of the time and to others' forest half of the time. This quarter, we send them more to other forests and harvest on others' land more than normal, and in the summertime, they have to have vacation. It's more thinning, and not as much final felling for a structural reason in Q3, because sawmills take downtime during the summer holidays, and they are driving the final felling. And then your second question, if sawmills start to take downtime, will that reduce available chips?
As I mentioned, the statistics we see is that you produce as much as you can harvest in Sweden, so nobody takes downtime if you have logs. So we have not really seen-
If you have logs.
Yeah, that's more if you have logs.
What's the product mix or customer mix?
Yes. There are different luxury segments.
Mm.
Premium, there are different types of premium brand owners. You're right, and Henrik mentioned that sort of the luxury goods segments that has quite some headwind, and we see that, but we have different. We have other applications that's not targeted or affected by this ban on extreme luxury.
Gotcha.
It's a question for our order book going forward. Yeah.
Understood. So given what's happened generally to energy costs, I'm not sure if that's the same in the U.K., but your green energy credits that you normally get, I suppose in Q4 in the U.K., how should we think about that this year versus last year and sequentially? What does it mean?
Normally, the bulk of the energy credits we get throughout the year, and then there is a bonus paid out in the fourth quarter. This year, there's a forecast on this one. We don't have the final outcome. It's lower than normal. Could be... it's lower than normal. That's all I can say.
Very well, thank you.
The next question comes from the line of Gaurav Jain, Barclays. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thank you for taking my questions. Morning, Henrik. Morning, Anders. So, one is on the fair value gain on forestry this quarter. It was higher than in the first two quarters, so, is that expectation for the full year changing or, how should we think about this gain in fair value in forest, in the forest segment?
Our fair value is determined, if we take out this quarter, we let more trees stand in our forest, means that we took out less from the bank account, and you can see it like that, which means that it take a step up in change in value because we took out less, and then we also put more money into the bank account by doing silviculture. So it, it's not a-
Okay.
The higher level was higher than normal, but this is because we took out less in terms of logs, and we put in more in the silviculture actions than we normally do in the third quarter.
Right. So in the fourth quarter, like, how should we think about this number? Like, should it go back to the 160, 170 number in Q1 and Q2, or is this
It's not a new level. It will definitely go down because we will revert to normal harvesting, and in the fourth quarter, there are various little silviculture activities, so it will go down, definitely.
Okay, sure. Thank you so much. My second question is on capital allocation. So look, you are, I think, the only company in the entire sector which does some share repurchases, which is very good. So how should we think about that now and going forward? Because your leverage is still, you know, sub one x, and in that context, can you also touch on your CapEx plans for this year and next year, and are you continuing with, you know, with your plans to have a three billion kind of CapEx next year?
Yeah.
Sure.
Share buyback is one of the tools we have. We have used. We have had such a strong cash flow over the last few years. We've used extra dividends, and from time to time, we have used share buybacks, which we have seen as a way of increasing the forest holding per share at a good price compared to the alternatives that we have available. And on CapEx for this year, we will be a bit above our forecast, at least this is a bit above SEK 2 billion. And next year, we will have a high level. If we will reach SEK 3 billion, we will have to come back on that.
Sure. Thank you so much. And my last question is on forest holdings. I know one of your peers is looking to sell a lot of their Swedish forest holdings. Is that a kind of asset you would be keen to look at?
We love forests that we can manage, and where we have two perspectives on it: the ownership of it, getting a good value addition over time, and we also have use of the wood that you can harvest from the forest in order to support our industrial operations, and that's two key aspects of owning forests.
Okay. I think I would have loved some more color on this, but I will leave it at that. Thank you so much.
The next question comes from the line of Christian Kopfer, Handelsbanken. Please go ahead.
All right, thank you very much. Just a few follow-ups from my side. Firstly, a little bit on the sawmills. I understand that we are probably should be pretty close to call it breaking point for the sawmills, how much, you know, higher costs they can take without prices coming up, but just touch a little bit on what you see on sawlog prices, if, sorry, if I missed it, by the way, but if you see sawlog prices coming up further here in, during the end of the year.
So far, Christian, we have not seen any change when it comes to the sawlog prices. I mean, the trend, just a week ago, roughly, Södra announced another price increase, so no change yet.
Right. And then... Okay.
But in the south of Sweden now.
It's an unusually large price difference within Sweden. They normally never persist, but right now it's almost a two-price market, where southern part of Sweden is, as Henrik mentioned, in line with Germany and Finland, while the northern part of Sweden is the step below.
So, do you think that is it still the transportation costs are so high, or is it that it's tough to find transportation opportunities, you know, to get down the price differences, you know?
Most probably you're right. It's probably a mix of different reasons, but logistics resources is absolutely part of the game. And also-
Right
... you need people to be there, meet people, buying the-
Yeah
... the plots, et cetera. It's not done like that. It takes some time. But over time-
Right
... normally shouldn't be that big differences.
Yeah
... between the different parts of the country.
Yeah. And then for, I think you talked a little bit about it, about frequency support services or ancillary services, what it's called, that you know those kind of prices in the market have come down quite a lot. And if I just saw a report just recently, that we are more or less not at zero, but you know we are at quite low levels, at least in the short run I looked. So have you seen the effect of that fully in your numbers, or you know would you expect further effect to come from lower prices from these kind of services?
In our energy division, we have seen the full effect of that in the third quarter. If that's temporary, due to we have had an extraordinary situation with the landlocked energy situation. We have more downtime than normal this part of the year, so a lot of energy has been landlocked in Sweden. If that is part of the explanation or if we do have a new level of earnings from ancillary services for hydropower, remains to be seen.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair enough. But, and do you have some. You get some. Well, at least previously, I think you have got some tailwind from these kind of services in the papermaking?
Yes.
Yeah.
But we, our business is a bit unique there, and we are, we provide services that others can't really do, and batteries can't compete.
Yeah.
We still provide value to the grid that they can't get from other actors.
You saw a headwind from that as well, even though-
No
... board and paper showed a really strong result year to year?
No.
Not yet.
Not yet. Okay. Okay, so, so that is still to come, or how do you see that?
We don't know.
No.
It's a market that didn't exist three years ago. Very difficult to understand.
Right
... where it's moving. We change our product palette all the time. We don't provide the same services that we did a year ago, and our operations are quite nimble and able to move into parts where the grid operators actually do really need the services, and very few can deliver them. If other people will come in, we don't know.
... Yeah. All right, guys, thank you very much.
The next question comes from the line of Pallav Mittal, Barclays. Please go ahead.
Good morning. So, a question on the board and paper segment. You mentioned that destocking is now over. We know some of your peers have said that the market is weakening, and your comments also suggest that. We are seeing a lot of FBB capacity coming online over the next 12 months or so. How do you think that impacts the market and you next year?
To start with, you're right. Destocking we saw last year, and this year it's over, and things are... Demand is better, but it's not back to where it was a couple of years ago. We have had new capacity coming in. This is not the first time. I think it's more for us to understand how much, and the big overcapacity is actually in Asia. It's not here, but we are dependent on exporting to Asia, some of our business, that's clear. But exactly what it will mean, it's impossible to say, as we are also in a niche where it's not so easy to get into. It took us some, maybe twenty years to qualify. New capacity normally do not directly compete with us, but could be indirectly, of course, and that's still to be seen. It's about quality and more.
Historically, we've had this situation before, that it comes a lot of new capacity at once, 20%-25%. We saw that in 2016, 2017. What happened then was prices didn't move either direction. A bit of a pressure on pricing. This is a consumer board, is a very high-end product. It's not a commodity. You have a very strong relationship with your customers. It's very difficult to switch. But on the other hand, in a bit oversupplied market, and that was the case then as well, very difficult to pass on the cost increases to your end customers.
Like wood costs, for example.
Yeah. And if you-
Thank you
... can't get enough volumes, normally your productivity suffers, and it's more that variable cost goes up. And that's normally the translation mechanism in consumer board.
Sure. Thank you.
The next question comes from the line of James Perry, Citigroup. Please go ahead.
Hi, thanks for the presentation. Just a quick one on paper pricing, actually. We've obviously seen a significant drop in pulp prices, so to what extent are you seeing this drop through to lower graphic paper prices? I guess there is typically a lag, but paper prices didn't really rise much following pulp earlier in the year. Or would you expect paper prices to be driven more by the demand?
Our type of paper is more correlated to what's happening to old OCC and ONP rather than pulp, because the mechanical paper grades are not used, normally not using much chemical pulp in the base. So it's a strong correlation, paper pricing versus recycled fiber prices.
In continental Europe, you know, it's about recycled fiber price. It's also the cost for energy.
Yeah.
Okay, thank you.
The next question comes from the line of Cole Hathorn, Jefferies. Please go ahead.
Morning, thanks for taking the question. I've got two myself, the first on the wood products market. I'm just wanting to understand how you see the lead indicator. Do you think the lead indicator for the wood products market is actually gonna end up being North America? And how do you see inventory levels? Or is that what you're looking at? And I know you kind of traditionally sell about 10% of your products there. Is that what you're looking at the market for the first signs of recovery, interest rates coming through, and they generally have lower stock in the chain, and that drives price, and hopefully Europe follows? That's the first one, and then the second one is, it's a bigger question.
I'm not sure if you can answer it, but with the U.S. election, there are increased talks around tariffs and implications on trade with China, and, you know, how that might impact luxury. I'm just wondering how that might impact the board division, in particular, kind of luxury demand, if you have any thoughts there, or any kind of tariffs on box board, how that might impact probably more your competitors, but just wondering how you see that playing out. Thank you.
I can take the first one if you take the second one. No, but you're right about the U.S. market's important to see where things are going. House starts, very important. When we look at the price in the U.S. and also future prices in U.S., as you can see, they have been quite a lot up and down and almost week by week, but that's a very important indicator.
Yeah. And second question, if you look at the board market as such, the European market is a regional market supplied by very high-quality producers. It's very little import that actually have any meaningful impact in Europe. But we export a fair share to Asia, into segments. We do definitely into niches, but most players where you don't have so much local competition, and that's the same way the U.S. producers do. They offload excess capacity in Asia, and that's where we meet. We haven't really given that much thought on a tariff war and the consequences of that, but it's more the balance in Asia that we think will we could be impacted by such a move.
Yes.
Okay, then, Henrik, maybe just following up on the answer for the lumber product in North America. I mean, this cycle, we have seen quite a few closures in, you know, the southern states of the U.S. Do you think it'll be slightly different this cycle when demand comes back? You know, the price reaction might be more aggressive to the upside, or is this what always happens? There's capacity closures, and it'll just be a normal cycle. Just wondering if you think there might be more lever to the upside on price this time.
It's a good question, but very difficult to answer, to be honest. I think what we need to see is, generally, that the cycle is improving and activities are coming back. And then the big question, I think, will be: Will there be enough raw material when that happens? The relation we have today between where we are price-wise and supply, it's pretty much restricted by availability of sawlog as it is right now. That will be extremely important to understand.
The previous 2020, 2021, 2022 super cycle on wood products, remember, log prices didn't rise during that period. They rose after that period, and that will be a key question. How fast will log costs go up? Who will be gaining from a construction uptick? Will it be the sawmill operator, or will it be the forest owner, or how will they share that pie?
Thank you.
As a reminder, to ask a question, please press star and one. The next question comes from the line of Linus Larsson, SEB. Please go ahead.
Thank you very much, and good morning to everyone. You value forest land on your balance sheet based on transaction valuation, and now that the year is drawing to a close pretty soon, I wonder if you could just give us an update on your thoughts on the transaction market in your relevant parts of Sweden, and what broadly to expect in terms of revaluation at the end of the year, please.
Yeah. And yeah, as a recap, and I know you know that, Linus, but we use three years of transactions, and we use that sample size to get a good sample of where the market is in order to capture the big part of the value. And on top of that, you have microtrends going on, like 2022, when you had one investor actually pushing up the price in the northern part of Sweden, predominantly. When he left the market, it created a bit of a vacuum at the same time as you had the interest rates going up, and people started to be a bit cautious, "Should I buy forest land?" Or if you're a private individual, then, "How should I price it?" And that's a microtrend.
The three-year transaction sample gives you a very good indication of the value of the forests in our view. If you read the latest transactions that have been made, maybe people are getting a bit less cautious right now. They have realized that wood prices have increased by 50%, at the same time as transaction prices have. It gives you quite a good yield if you buy a forest property compared to history right now. So you maybe could have a bit more of an optimistic view on the local transaction market. Where the three-year average will land at the year-end, can't tell right now. But it, the change in value will not filter through in P&L. It will go straight to equity.
Hmm. But at least, I mean, at the beginning of the year, it was a very slow market, few transactions, lower prices. You've seen a gradual improvement during the course of the year, I take it. Is it so that you're expecting a higher price point in, you know, the twenty twenty-four data point, or a lower one compared to the one that you're replacing in the three-year series?
I refrain from giving that comment on it.
That's fair enough, and then just a couple of maybe detailed questions, but when you refer to mix in board and paper, could you just say what is that? When you've seen strong mix in Q2 and even stronger mix in Q3, exactly what are you referring to, please?
Different end markets, end users have different profitability. So-
So, it's the product rather than the geographies?
Yes. Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
I think, Linus, the thing is, it's not given that we can repeat it every quarter.
No. It-
No, that's fine. And then just one final from me. Like you already said, in the fourth quarter, you will wrap up the PM52 rebuild in Bråviken, and you've guided for the stoppage impact in the fourth quarter. But beyond that, what kind of a ramp up should we be expecting, you know, looking into the first quarter, twenty twenty-five, et cetera? Is this an easy startup that you're foreseeing, or will it have some dent on quarterly profits after the actual stop?
We've never done this before, have we?
No. You remember, we actually increase the quality of our book paper production, but it's also an ambition to try to enter into a new market with a novel production concept in order to be for our packaging customers a low CO2 footprint and low basis weights. How that will be received by the market remains to be seen. We'll see.
Mm-hmm. Exciting.
It's a bit early.
Thank you
... Linus. We have to get started-
Sure
... and see how it develops.
Got it. No problem. Thanks.
Thank you.
There are no more questions at this time.
Okay. Thank you very much for taking your time and for good discussions. See you soon again. Bye-bye.