No. Good morning, everybody, and welcome to the year-end report presentation for the Holmen Group. My name is Henrik, this is Anders, and we will go through the presentation, and after that, we're happy to take any questions you might have.
Let's start. First of all, if we look back at 2022, it has been a quite strange year characterized by energy crisis, lack of raw material, horrible war in Ukraine, et cetera. For us as a company to have the base in our own forest land, good control of the raw material, but also our renewable energy situation has made it possible to deliver a record high result, historically high. Based on that, we have also had a discussion internally and the board of directors have proposed to give an ordinary dividend of SEK 8 and an extra dividend of another SEK 8.
Our good result in combination with our good financial position, not the least that we have a very low net debt at the end of the year, SEK 2 billion , we feel that we can both do the ordinary and the extra dividend, but also have the muscles that we need to invest in our operations in our different business areas. It's a rather good feeling about the situation we have. If we switch to the wood market and the forest, we'll come back to the value of forest land. We have a situation. I think we should actually be quite proud of what we have done the last, say 50 years.
We've been able to all years increase the standing volume of wood in the forest at the same time as we have been able to increase slowly, but safely at least, the harvest. We have also been able actually to improve the biodiversity index, which was introduced a few years ago at the COP15 meeting. It's a way to measure the status in the forest and how much it has been affected by human activity.
In the case of Sweden, we have also been able actually to improve over the last, say, 20 years, quite a lot. You know, there's a lot of discussions about the forest. When we look internally or when we look at Swedish politicians, how we report to EU, et cetera, we get like one picture. When other people look at us from outside, normally we come out much better.
Something we have to come back to in the future. I think actually we could be quite proud of what we have done. The wood market, well, I mentioned the war initially, and the situation we have now, if you look at not only Sweden, but surrounding countries and the Baltic Sea, we have a situation where we don't see any Russian pulpwood coming into Finland, which affects the market.
There is simply lack of raw material, especially pulpwood in Sweden right now. We have no wood coming from the east. We have actually lately seen a tendency that some of the pulpwood actually is going towards the east from Sweden, which, well, we have had that up in the north, but we haven't seen it further south before.
That's the pulpwood sector, and at the same time as the pulp mills are running, I would say fairly full, 'cause you also need to have access to the raw material, which is not given in today's situation. When it comes to the sawmills and the demand for sawlogs, it's more a balanced situation, even though sawmills in Sweden are operating at quite high operating rates, and there is a quite high demand also for sawlogs still. Anders, higher prices should mean slightly higher revenues for our forest operations.
Yes. As everything in the forest, it goes quite slowly. If you look back two years ago, prices are now at the 20% higher level on average, which means that our underlying operating profit from a forest business have gone up from normally SEK 300 million a quarter to where we are today at SEK 360 million-SEK 370 million per quarter. Fourth quarter, we reported earnings slightly above SEK 400 million, and that was due to us receiving compensation for creation of nature reserves. The underlying result where we are trading at current prices are SEK 360 million-SEK 370 million. We have also, if we change slide, made the annual evaluation.
We do it only in the fourth quarter each year, where we look at the average transaction prices in the regions where we have forest, roughly 300 transactions per year in these regions. We take the three-year average and calculate and translate it into our forest holdings, which means that based on these transaction prices between private individuals, we are now at a value of our forest holdings at SEK 52 billion, up 11% compared to a year ago.
A lot of people like the forest, obviously.
Definitely. You can understand why.
Yes. Switching subject to paperboard. If we have a look at the market situation there, I think 2021 stands out as a kind of artificial year. If we look at demand, we are today when we look in our own order books, and we look at the market in general, we see that, well, things are coming back to maybe a more normal situation.
During the pandemic, most of the customers, they were almost in panic to get hold of raw material. When you are in such a situation, you have a tendency to order a bit more because lead times are long, and now we have inventory levels that has to come down a bit, and things are getting back to what we see as more a normal situation.
Based on cost pressure, energy, and raw material, there has been a number of price increases in the market. The situation we have now, if you look at the players not competing directly with us, but in white-lined chipboard, then things are easing a little bit when it comes to fiber and energy. In our segment, we feel that we are in a good position. We have a good customer mix, we have a good market mix.
We have a healthy order book. I think we are more confident when it comes to expanding our business and selling slightly higher volumes to the right customers. That has been really important when we have discussed internally what we can do, and we come to the conclusion that let's start an investment program over the next five years.
We have looked into actually a number of different options, we have finally come to a, I think, we've landed in a good decision. It takes a number of years, we will be able to increase production on KM1 and KM2, the two board machines we have at the Iggesund Mill by roughly 25%. It takes some time, slowly we will be able to increase capacity. Anders, we had a quite huge maintenance stop, or huge, but quite big.
We had the annual maintenance shut at Iggesund. It cost us slightly more than we expected, SEK 250 million, and some things took longer time to work on than we had expected. That's part of running this kind of operation. In this quarter, we also received the annual green bonus for producing green energy in the U.K. of SEK 50 million. Amount varies from year to year, SEK 50 million is a normal annual revenue in Q4 for that contribution.
Paper. How on earth can we do so well in paper? We have a declining demand for paper in general. Steel prices are going up, at least during the fourth quarter, and we have overall operating rates in the industry which are simply not sufficient. Driven by very high cost for fiber and energy, this is the development we have had.
In our case, we've been able to control the cost in a very good way. We have also been able to run, say, more full, meaning with a higher operating rate than the average in the industry. We have been able also to, let's say, follow the price development that has been determined, especially by the players in continental Europe, having the cost based on recycled fibers and energy, which is mixed electricity gas price. It has been quite successful.
If we look at the situation right now when it comes to those two parameters, the cost for recycled fibers and also power prices in continental Europe, things are changing a bit. Nobody knows. It feels like if we look at the weather forecast, we might know what the power price will be the next week. As things are right now, the cost pressure is easing a bit. Talking about that, because this is a game between our way of doing it, which is our local wood and our fossil-free energy in Sweden, the electricity, and we compete normally with people with recycled fibers and continental power prices as the base.
One should remember, though, that we have actually a fair share of capacity, especially in Germany, the dark blue part here, which is also based on the same concept as we have, TMP, meaning local German wood and local German electricity prices. There we have a feeling that I think we have a better position simply, which we have to make sure that we take care of in a good way going forward. That has probably been the base why we have been running at such high operating rates over the last year. Anders, as said, the increased prices it said in the fourth quarter, it helps.
Definitely. It's a record year by a good margin. Q4 was strong. Prices went up 7% or 8% due to price increases. We had some maintenance stops, but we also the negative effect of energy costs coming back to what you could say is a normal level. The energy cost was in now in the fourth quarter in line with our hedge levels.
In the previous Q3 and Q2, we were able to achieve energy costs below our hedge levels due to the active management of downtime. In the fourth quarter, our ability to take downtime was restricted by maintenance stops, and also the pricing pattern on the electricity market were a bit different in the fourth quarter, which meant that we couldn't really gain as much as we gained in the third and second quarter on taking downtimes.
Exactly. Then a few words about wood products. It was a fantastic first half of the year, 2022, prices came down, as you know, the customers were a bit more hesitant to order, also a question mark, where is the construction cycle going? It's no secret that demand has been a bit lower when it comes to demand for wood products in general.
I think what we have to remember here is also that actually supply has quite a big, huge impact on the market. When I talk about supply, I mean, first of all, Russia, which seems to be more or less out of the game. In the beginning, we saw some volumes going towards the east, but not to Western Europe. Now we don't see so much of Russian wood products at all.
We have Canada, where the trees are kind of in the wrong place. We have sawmills closing down or capacities taken down, and also slightly higher production cost level compared to us in Sweden. We have continental Europe, which also has an impact. You know that harvests in continental Europe has been driven by spruce bark beetle infestation, and it's been on a, I'd say, bit higher level than what is long-term sustainable. As it looks now, that is coming down a bit, and also the cost in continental Europe is a bit higher than at least what we believe it is in Sweden. In Sweden, most sawmills are still running at high operating rates, but we have a uncertainty where the construction cycle is going.
The feeling is, as we have said here, that prices are stabilizing, and maybe we have reached the bottom, but it's very hard to predict. Even though there are some uncertainty about short-term where this is going, we are firm believers in wood products and building in wood. I think one should not forget that this is one of the biggest challenges we have for this planet.
Housing accounts for so much of global emissions, and to be in a position where you are an alternative to concrete, cement, and steel, I think it's a rather good position. We said that for some years. That's why we have grown quite a lot, both organically and through acquisitions.
When we look forward a little bit what we have in the pipeline, we have an ambition to continue to grow, both value and volume, of course. We have a program going on in our Iggesund sawmill, slightly bigger volume, and also changing the mix a bit. It's quite a lot of money. It's like SEK 400 million . We are establishing also a hub in connection to the sawmill at Braviken for glulam beams in order to have better access to the market to be closer to the customers. We're also investing in increase in the production of cross-laminated timber at our Bygdsiljum sawmill by roughly 50%.
On top of that, we have said that before we have discussions, and we are right now evaluating together with SCA, if we could build a jointly owned sawmill at the Rundvik sawmill in the future, which would be a very good fit for both of us 'cause it's simply in the middle of our forest holdings. That's about the future. We also have a fourth quarter.
Contrary to the previous quarters, the result actually was negative in the fourth quarter. That's, of course, pricing coming down to what we would characterize as a normal, from a historical perspective, normal levels, but production costs have increased through high log prices. They are slightly more than 20% more expensive today than they were two years ago, which means that you can't make ends meet at normal pricing levels.
We did, in the fourth quarter, make a SEK 30 million impairment to finished goods values. That's what you have to do when you enter into negative territory. The underlying result is slightly better than reported. We are still positive on EBITDA level if you take that inventory right on back. It was a very good delivery quarter, and we have now normal inventory levels.
Thank you, Anders. A few more words about the energy crisis we have seen in 2022. Lack of energy, we have seen a volatile energy market in the fourth quarter, but also during most of 2022 with very high prices, especially in continental Europe. In the fourth quarter, we also saw, I think for the first time almost, that the electricity prices in northern parts of Sweden, where we happen to have all our hydropower and the majority of our wind power, well, the prices came up to the same level as in south of Sweden, and to be honest, more or less the same level as in continental Europe.
We know that Svenska Kraftnät, they have done some things in order to increase the transmission capacity a bit, but it's very difficult to understand exactly what happened in the fourth quarter.
It's a very interesting trend if this is to stay or not. In any way, it helped us quite a lot, and it showed the strength, both of the hydropower and the wind power. We have grown our wind power operations, especially with Blåbergsliden up north, which now pays off a bit and, well, it's actually the best result ever, isn't it?
Yes, definitely by a wide margin in this case as well. Very strong result driven by the strong pricing SE2. The hydropower contributed, the wind power contributed nicely as well. If we take the next slide.
Can you explain what we have done with the hydropower?
Normally, you earn SEK 20 per MWh more, from running hydro compared to running a production stable throughout the year. In the fourth quarter, we earned SEK 500 more per MWh. You receive revenues from helping stabilizing the grid. This effect in the fourth quarter was predominantly us timing the market not only day and night, but also we moved production from October to November, December. October prices were not that great, so we took the decision to not produce that much, but store it in our water reservoirs two times when the society needed it better and the price was higher.
How much flexibility do we have?
You, you can go up and down, you can reduce production to a level of 50% of normal production.
Mm-hmm.
That's what we can do.
If we summarize what we have said, we have not only delivered a record result when it comes to money, we have also helped the planet a little bit more to actually go through or come closer to a green transition by increasing our 7.2 million tons of the climate benefit coming from us. Okay, that's it. We stop there, and we're happy to take any questions you have.
We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star followed by one on their touchtone telephone. You will hear a tone to confirm that you have entered the queue. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, then you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use only hands free when asking a question. Anyone who has a question may press star and one at this time.
The first question is from the line of Kjellberg Lars with Credit Suisse. Please go ahead. Mr. Kjellberg, can you hear us? We're moving on to the next question. The next question is from the line of Johannes Grunselius with DNB Markets. Please go ahead.
Yes. Hello, gentlemen. Johannes Grunselius here. Two questions, but the first one is on your announcement of expanding Iggesund with 25% or seems like it's a, it's a five-year period. How should we think about that in terms of CapEx? How should we think about, you know, the new volumes kicking in over this period? Thank you.
It's going to take CapEx, can't you?
Yeah. We today invest slightly more than SEK 300 million on average in our mill, and now we're stepping up to level roughly at SEK 600-SEK 700 million per year in CapEx over this five-year period.
It's bottlenecks, and it's other things we do in order to make the mill ready to take on slightly bigger volumes. I think what's important for us is that today we feel a lot more confident when it comes to our customer mix and where to sell the coming volumes we'll see coming in the future.
Okay.
We will work through the whole mill from the board machines all through to the way out to the harbor because you enter into bottlenecks all the way. That's why we have to do it over such an extended period.
Yeah. Will you keep the mix pretty much unchanged? Am I right that it will imply a nice fixed cost observation?
Yeah. Yes. We will.
Okay.
Yeah. A fixed cost will not change by this. If anything, it might be reduced a bit.
Yes. Then I had a question on what you think about the outlook for your publication paper price-wise, because it appears that, you know, prices holding up well in the Q1. What are you seeing in terms of inventories and market tightness, et cetera? Is it fair to think that this strength will carry over into the second quarter? Am I right that the newsprint grade is in particular the strongest within publication paper at the moment?
It's not easy to know exactly where things are going. As I said in the beginning, we do see theoretically, the operating rates for the industry is far too low to be sustainable. There will happen things in the market, that's for sure. You cannot run a mill at 50% operating rate. You have to be at levels where we have been, close to full or-
Yeah.
Somewhere there. This will play out in a way that I showed a slide where we said that, "Look how much TMP production actually we have in Germany, where you need to use a lot of electricity, and it's slightly different than the rest in Germany, where they have the base in recycled fibers, et cetera." I think that will have an impact on what will happen in the market. Prices, well, we are negotiating every day right now. I can't comment on that.
Okay.
It was cost-driven. It will be a cost game, I think, also in the future.
Yeah. I mean, is it fair to assume that the much lower prices for recovered paper and also at the moment, lower energy prices in Germany will then fall over to lower prices for paper in Europe or. I mean, any comment on that?
That in combination with the operating rates, as I said.
Yeah. Okay, okay.
You have the.
Thank you very much.
It's a complicated game because you need to get hold of the raw material if you're going to step up production, and it's not that certain that there is actually recycled fiber available. you don't really know.
Okay
What the electricity price will be when you are going to produce. It's not that easy if you work on the continent.
Remember, all of a sudden you have one week of cold weather and prices are changing dramatically.
Mm.
Immediate impact on how people are, what they do when it comes to this business, how they act.
Okay. Okay. Thank you for valuable comments.
Thank you.
The next question is from the line of Linus Larsson with SEB. Please go ahead.
Thank you very much and a very good morning. Maybe continuing a bit on CapEx and just following up on the remark that you made on paperboard, but also in other parts of the group. What's your CapEx guidance for 2023? Also beyond that, what's the, I don't know, the new normal or what should we expect annually in the next, say, three years after 2023?
We have a deposition of close to SEK 1.4 billion. We will invest SEK 300-SEK 400 million more per year in the Iggesund Mill. Then we have interesting plans both in the sawmills and there is some potential in the paper. We believe that we will be at a slightly higher CapEx levels in the next few years, up towards SEK 2 billion a year in CapEx in order to expand the business and also grill. Renewable energy expansion will come on top of that, and that's more of a project-based expansion once we get approvals for new wind farms.
Okay. for 2023, is that your guidance as well, around SEK 2 billion?
Up towards SEK 2 billion, yeah.
Okay. When at the earliest is the next wind park investment?
I thought it was last year.
It's very difficult to say.
Depends completely on the permitting, but it's not likely to be any meaningful capital outflows in 2023.
Great. Thanks. Then maybe on renewable energy, you gave some. Well, on energy, I mean, bigger topic than that, I guess. In this, could you also talk a bit more about these extra revenues? I mean, it's spectacularly high in the fourth quarter. What's, what's to stick, what's to stay of that, kind of new source of revenue, if you like?
We are hedged 20% in the hydropower, or hydro and wind power. That's, we don't go much beyond that, and that's hedged for 2023. We by and large will run the.
Okay. This SEK 30 million, that you impaired in the fourth quarter, that's bouncing back presumably in a bridge to the first quarter. Apart from that, what are you expecting in terms of price and costs? Are costs still rising? Sawlogs, are prices largely the same?
When it comes to the price of wood products, we simply don't know. We have a feeling that we might have hit the bottom, but as you rightly point out, the cost for sawlogs is higher today than it was a couple of years ago when we were on roughly the same price level for the wood products, and the competition for sawlogs is still rather high.
Are sawlog costs rising sequentially in the first quarter?
Not in a meaningful manner, but the direction, if anything, on the wood market is, it's still up.
Mm-hmm.
It's a intense competition for wood, pulpwood, but also, sawlogs are in great demand.
Yeah. Perfect. Many thanks.
The next question is from the line of Lindström Oskar with Danske Bank. Please go ahead.
Yes. Good morning.
Morning, Oskar.
Sorry. Three questions from me here. The first one just on the capacity increase at Iggesund. You talked about over five years. What's gonna be the sort of pace of the capacity increase? Is it gonna be even all towards the end, some front-end loading? That's the first question.
Yeah.
Second question is on forest and wood supply demand in Northern Sweden. I hear that, I think it's Sveaskog are reducing their harvesting levels in the northern parts of Sweden. Is that something which is gonna impact your operations directly or indirectly? Finally, my third question is on wood products. You mentioned that your sawmills are running full, and that seems to be the situation in Sweden in general. Are you seeing mills in Continental Europe taking meaningful downtime? Is this driven by the market or a lack of timber to supply them with? Those three questions.
Shall we start with the capacity at Iggesund? That was the first one, wasn't it?
It's a gradual increase in capacity. That's normally the case in board because it's such a difficult product to produce. Even if you get the technical capacity, it takes time to run in the ramp up the production capacity. This is so many measurements, so it will be a gradual. It's so many actions that we're taking in the mill, it will be a gradual ramp up.
Actually, it suits us quite well as well, Oscar, to have some time in order to make sure we sell it into the right segments, to the right customers. We're happy if it comes, if it takes a few years, it's okay.
About the pulpwood availability. In the northern part of Sweden, we are net seller in the northern part of Sweden. So our industrial activities are not affected by it. But we are seeing that competition is quite intense up north and will most likely become even more intense when the new Kemijoki Mill in the northern part of Finland starts up.
Right now with the war as well, you have a special situation with even fiercer competition for the pulpwood. There was one more, wasn't it? Oskar, what was the last question?
Yeah. The last one was about sawmills taking.
Yeah, in continental Europe.
Downtime, either in Sweden or continental Europe, and to what extent, any continental European downtime is a consequence of lower harvesting levels in Europe.
There is no good statistics on that, Oskar, so it's more rumors going around.
It's also a more logic, Oskar. Okay, maybe not tomorrow, but something will happen after the last few years where harvesting levels have been on the high side.
All right. Thank you.
Thank you.
The next question is from the line of Kjellberg Lars with Credit Suisse. Please go ahead.
Thank you. I hope my microphone works now. Good morning.
Morning.
A couple of questions from me. The paperboard market seems to be increasingly at risk for excess supply given, you know, we are seeing significant capacity increases from the likes of Stora Enso board and your incremental tons. Of course, some of this tons is targeting the U.S., with the same ton, there's a number of projects coming up in the U.S.
What is your thoughts on how this market should develop to be able to absorb this? The second question really relates to the same. Exports is typically quite a big business, both for European and North American producers. It now appears maybe there's some less opportunities, in particular into the Asian markets.
If you can comment a bit on the export opportunity and how you think about the market development in relation to this new supply coming on board. Also on wood cost, I just wanted to hear what you're saying about, you know, competition from the energy sector when it comes to wood, because that seems to be another potential meaningful demand that I guess, given the energy price is quite difficult to compete with. Then the final topic is again on wood products. What are you hearing from your customers now and for the, call it, next three to six months about their outlook?
Of course, we're seeing in Sweden a dramatic fall in new builds and et cetera, and housing starts in the U.K. and the U.S., for example, is coming down sharply. What are your clients saying and how do you view the next six months in this business? Thank you.
Mm. First one was, export opportunities, huh?
Yeah.
Maybe we can start with.
Export opportunities and supply.
You can look at, we can't comment for the market as such. We have a very focused niche strategy. We also recognize there are a lot big machines coming on stream. To make them viable, you need to run them full, very long runs. You need to go into the mass markets to make that the economics work for all these new machines. We have already, since the expansion of Husum and Kotka, been focused on niche markets, market segments that are too expensive to serve if you run a big machine.
Combine that with our sawmilling strategy, which means that we have a very strong foothold with own forest and ships from our sawmills, which means that we don't have to import any wood to our facilities, and the Iggesund facility is self-sufficient more or less in energy. Which is quite a unique position in this market. We have a very strong control over our own costs, focused on niche, doing this gradually, adding value to our products. We can't escape the general market movements. Our activities are not really impacted by this mass market if you go into food, et cetera, where you have the big volumes.
That's a bit why we have said on a number of occasions also that we have to make sure that we sell it into the right segment, and that means we do it not too much at the same time, but take a step after step, but slowly maybe, but profitable. That base of customers, I can say, I said before, we are more confident today. I think that mix in the base we have today is better than before.
In Europe, sort of most of the production capacity is in Sweden and Finland. A lot of your relative competitiveness will be about your ability to source wood and also your own energy situation. That alludes to your second question, the competition for fuel wood from heating facilities. Yes, they are there in the market, and they have had the ability to pay.
Of course, they have added to the pressure, maybe not so much up in the Nordics, but more on the continent, where you really have if you can burn wood, you make a killing instead of burning gas. That's clearly so. That's not really as strong a case in the Nordics. It's more of a problem down in the continent in our view.
What you might have to add to the Nordics is that, for example, green steel, if they are going to be really green, they need to use also biomaterial to produce biocoal. We haven't seen that yet. It's something that needs to be added to the discussion.
The third question, I believe, was about the construction market outlook, wasn't it, Lars?
Yes, I think it was.
What your customers are saying, in effect, right?
Maybe it's-
Yeah.
Yes.
I think, it's not easy to see exactly where it's going. It's, you see if you follow the American prices, the futures, you see it's up, down, it's hovering around the same level roughly. As we said before, we think that we have might hit the bottom. You're rightly about that, okay, economic activity should not support, a boost when it comes to building right now. The feeling is not that bad, but we will see where it goes. Again, I think supply is extremely important to understand. It's not only demand.
What we can see is the demand for building in wood, this CLT type of buildings, that interest is still there very, very strong, and that is more or less unaffected by the current uncertainties on the construction cycle.
The order books there are fine.
Yeah.
We need to-
Martin.
Sell the planks as well.
Just one quick follow-up on the Iggesund expansion project. I mean, in the past, it's proven quite disruptive when you made various investments at Iggesund in particular, but this seems more modular. Can you give us some sort of sense of confidence that it's not gonna be meaningfully more disruptive than any normal maintenance activity over the next three, four, five years?
Oh.
You're right. This is more modular. We take it step by step. It's also why we do a rebuild, make sure that it works, we do the next rebuild. We do it in a more modular way to reduce risks because it's difficult to rebuild board machines.
It could have been a quicker way to do it, but we choose the safe one. Safer, at least.
Yeah.
All right. Thank you very much. Thank you.
The next question is from the line of Kopfer Christian with Handelsbanken. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thanks, operator. Good morning, Henrik and Anders. Just one question left for me on renewable energy. It's on, I think you announced in the beginning of last year, February or something like that you, that you bought out the wind power park in Barsebäck. If I remember correctly, that park has been around for like eight, nine years or something like that. The turbines there are 3 MW or something. My question is that, if you see a pretty, you know, significant opportunity to repower that wind park.
Mm.
They are 3.2 MW turbines. Although they are eight years old, they were state-of-the-art at that time. They run well, they produce well, and the economics being in SE3, that it's great. It's, we will run them.
After 25 years?
Yeah, yeah. Repower after 20 to 25 years, yes, maybe. Right now, it doesn't make sense. You have to remember, We have 16 windmills. You can't have 16 with 6 MW turbines. You have to have 10 maybe with 6 MW. You don't really get.
In the same area.
Nah, yeah. You have to swap places.
Yeah, okay. That's fair. In the other areas, do you see any opportunities to buy out more wind parks on your land?
What do you say?
Well, no, we don't see it in the short term. We prefer to focus on building on our on the wind farm permits we should get.
Okay. Okay. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Christian.
As a reminder, if you wish to register for a question, please press star and one on your telephone. Ladies and gentlemen, there are no further questions at this time.
Okay. Thank you very much for taking the time and for good questions and discussions. See you soon. Bye-bye.