Holmen AB (publ) (STO:HOLM.B)
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Earnings Call: Q1 2023

Apr 28, 2023

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

Good morning, everybody, and welcome to the interim report presentation for the Holmen Group. It's me, Henrik, and Anders, the usual suspects. We will go through the presentation. After that, we're happy to take on any questions you might have. Let's start. We are happy to be able to deliver a very strong result again in the first quarter of this year. I think we've been able to navigate in a quite challenging environment, not the least with the help of our forest assets and our energy assets, and on top of that, of course, also a very strong performance by our paper division. We'll come back to that a bit later.

We've been able to deliver 28% operating margin. When we make good money, of course, it has an effect on our cash flow, which after having paid for the investments actually was as high as SEK 1.8 billion in the first quarter, which means that at the end of the quarter, we were essentially debt-free. Right now after dividends, we have roughly a bit more than SEK 2.5 billion in net debt. You know that Holmen is a company where forest is the base for everything we do. In different ways, we try to make our best to extract value for our shareholders. That is, I think it's more than ever important in times when it's quite a big fierce competition for the wood in the forest. We'll come back to that.

First, a few words about what we've actually been able to do. In Sweden and in Holmen, during a number of years, the way we have been actively manage our forest, we have been able to actually double the amount of wood standing in a forest, storing carbon every day, every year, more and more, at the same time as we've been able to increase the harvest. Extremely important, we have also, as one of two countries in the world, been able to increase the status of ecosystems and biodiversity in our forest, which means that when other people look at us, we are the best in the world. We leave that for now.

It's more like a reminder and a few words about the situation in the forest and the competition for the wood, which is higher than ever, partly affected by Russians and the war in Ukraine, where the Russians supply into, let's say, our part of the market from Russia, mainly into Finland, is no longer there. At the same time, also, as we see, as there are some investments soon coming on stream, not the least, the Kemi bioproduct mill up in the north. This means that both the competition for sawlogs and the pulpwood is big, it's fierce, and we can see that on the prices, and the prices have gone up quite a lot. If we compare to where we are price-wise today to a long-term trend which includes, Anders, I think, normal inflation...

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

Yes

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

... we are some 30% higher. Maybe you can elaborate a little bit on that and also what higher prices means for our profitability.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

I will. The higher prices have, of course, translated into higher profits. If you just look at the profit level a year ago, we are 15% above that. If you for a moment take away the change in value and also the forest, sale of forest land that we have from time to time, we look at the earnings level, the cash flow, the true cash flow we have from the forest operations, they are some 35% higher than the trend levels that we use when we value our forest assets. We have seen a significant boost from higher selling prices in the cash flow that we have from our own forest assets.

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

This is a bit hard to see sometimes, but it's there.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

Yeah.

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

Moving over to paperboard. You know we are in a niche market where not so many players, not the biggest market in the world, but a very interesting market. Also here, we can see that demand has slowed down, especially because we were extremely high during the pandemic when customers were ordering more or less in panic. Now we see that most customers, they have a bit too much in stock and they need to de-stock, which has an effect on the market. It has also an effect on us. Our order book is not bad. We are normally running full, but also we feel the, what is happening in the market. We also see that the interest for buying our board from the customers we really want to do business with, it's high, but also they are de-stocking at the moment.

When it comes to the price development in the market, we can see that most other grades like testliner, white-lined chipboard, also kraftliner, well, the price pressure is there and prices are on their way down. We should remember, though, we've said it many times in the niche where we are for folding boxboard and especially for solid bleached board, it takes time to change the price. Even though many people talk about the pulp price and what effect it has on our pricing, it usually doesn't have such big effect. Now we're in a situation where we have increased our prices in order to compensate for higher cost, which you will comment, Anders. We should remember that pulp price not necessarily have to have an effect on our pricing.

So far, our prices are stable. When it comes to our possibilities to increase our production over time, we can agree to right now this was not the best quarter, but we see that especially for the Iggesund Mill, we have the chance to increase production over time. It takes some years, and we take it step by step in investing a bit more money than we normally do in order to, well, increase sales and production, of course, long term based on, which is very important, our position, having our own forest, strong position in the, in the wood market, but also our energy situation. All right, Anders, to try to sum up what kind of profitability we had.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

Yes, we had a good quarter, first quarter of this year. Henrik, you mentioned the price increases. They have been cost-driven. Cost for wood and chemicals have increased quite a lot during the last two years, and prices have increased to cover that increase of cost. Margin, underlying margin, is rather unchanged in the board business. You can see we have had a few quarters with strong results if you take out the maintenance stop last quarter, but that's due to sale of excess electricity in the U.K. where pricing levels have been very high when you sell our excess electricity. In the first quarter, prices came down quite dramatically in the U.K., but our selling prices were good due to hedges we have had.

We don't have any hedges going forward for the sale of U.K. electricity, and the gain we made on selling electricity made up half of the operating profit in the first quarter. Back to you, Henrik.

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

Thank you. There's a lot of information there. Okay, moving on to paper. Paperboard is a place you want to be 'cause long term there is increased demand. When it comes to paper, we know for long period that, well, it's not increasing demand. Demand is going down structurally. Still, this quarter, you will come back to it was fantastic, a bit over SEK 800 million . How is that possible? Well, we are part of the market, and as I said, demand is slowing down or is coming down, and also we are affected, of course. We take constantly market shares, and we have increased prices. I think we were even a bit late with the last price increase, which had an extra effect in the first quarter.

Even we feel that the demand is slowing down, and we are not running to 100%. We are running roughly at 80%. If we make use of the time where we're not running the machines to optimize in whatever way we can, also when we do not run to make sure we do the best we can when it comes to our energy positions. We are a player. We have been successful in especially book paper and in product development in different ways, and we are in this market to stay. We also have a strategy which is a last man standing strategy based on our cost competitiveness. We talked a lot about our energy situation, which is perhaps not possible to keep in the same way forever.

Swedish wood and local wood and Swedish fossil-free energy is not the bad concept compared to our competitors down in continental Europe, especially the ones, if you look at the German bar, the dark blue part, that's the capacity based on the same concept as ours, meaning local wood and German electricity prices. There we have a really strong cost competitiveness. Also, when it comes to the other ones we compete with in recycled fibers in combination to local energy, sure, electricity and energy prices have come down in continental Europe. Still, they are on a higher level than historically. When it comes to recycled fiber prices, well, old newspapers and magazines has also come down a bit, but it's still on quite high level.

It's a scarcity, and the cost for sorting out what you need to make use of in order to produce paper, it's also quite high. We have decided that we will actually spend some money in making sure that we can not only make an even better book paper, especially broadening our palette, but also to be able to increase the production of our fluting product we have introduced into the market. No big volumes left yet, but where we have an idea to maybe produce, like, 100,000 tons in 33 years' time from now. It's an investment of SEK 450 million roughly, and it's a way to make sure that we can run book paper more efficiently in higher grammages and also to produce the fluting grades in a more efficient way. High prices, control of electricity can only mean one thing.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

Another stellar performance in the paper division. As Henrik mentioned, we were a bit late on hiking the prices in Q4, which we were, on the other hand, able to maintain throughout the first quarter, which meant that we had a tailwind from higher prices in Q1.

We did also see that market became very, very soft and took more downtime than we had to do last year. When we saw that situation happening, we decided to close some of our electricity hedges, which we benefited from in the first quarter by, in the magnitude of SEK 250 million in lower electricity cost due to that action. That's nothing that we will have going forward. It's a bit of a one-time when we maneuver in the market.

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

It wasn't the first time.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

No.

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

Moving on to wood products. It's a lot of discussion in the wood products market at the moment, you know it has been quite a volatile journey over the years with some fantastic quarters if we go back half a year or so. Now, we have a situation where demand is really not helping, high inflation, high interest rates, low activity in the building sector, especially here in the Nordic countries, maybe especially in Sweden. We see that we will not get much help from demand right now. We have to understand also the other side of the equation, meaning the supply.

In Sweden, we are running the sawmills, I wouldn't say flat, 'cause some of the sawmills definitely have a problem to actually have access to enough sawlogs, lack of raw material or very tough to get it, but almost flat. If you come to look at continental Europe, there we have had a bark beetle infestation, which is a problem. More logs than normal have been taken out of the forest, and we're now in a situation where the cost is a bit higher and supply is coming down. Same in Canada. Also there, beetle infestation and quite high cost, especially in British Columbia. Then we have Russia. The Russian volumes, we do not see them in Western Europe at least anymore, or in the U.S. maybe for sure some is going to the eastern part of the world.

There are a few things making supply a bit lower than normal. The question is where it will go. We feel at the moment that prices are, well, at best, they have bottomed out, but very difficult to know exactly what will happen. What we do know, and we're absolutely sure about that, I would say, is that wood products as an alternative to concrete and steel will for sure be interesting in the future. Our interest in expanding is absolutely still there. We also know that over time, wood products most likely will, as historically, prices will be tightly linked to the development for especially concrete and steel. We know what EU has in mind, meaning that the free allocation of emission allowances will be phased out, and there will be an increased cost to produce concrete over time.

Anders, no good demand doesn't mean any good business for the moment.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

Of course. We are at a very slow point in the business cycle with a low construction demand. We make ends meet. We have a more or less zero operating profit. Prices have stabilized at high, historically high levels, but so have wood costs. They are running clearly above before the boom that we enjoyed the last two years. When you run the sawmill, you also get more paid for the chips that you sell from the sawmill to the pulp mills. That keeps up the profitability for the Swedish sawmills right now.

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

Renewable energy, something we need much more of if we're going to make sure that we do the green transition we talk about. You will come back to that, Anders, but it's not only windmills that are important. The hydropower is becoming more and more important, and that's also seen for us. If you look at the market, well, prices, electricity prices, they are not as they were during the pandemic when it was very strange or extremely high price, especially in continental Europe. We are now in a situation where prices have come down, but they haven't come down to the level we were used to historically, and not even in the northern parts of Sweden, where we have the majority of our production, which means that again, a good quarter.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

Yes. We recorded another strong quarter from our hydro and wind power, where we actually saw a increase in contribution from wind because there were good production. Sennik mentioned prices are 50% higher than historically normal levels. To be clear also, in our renewable business, we only have wind and hydropower. We run a lot of other renewable energy businesses. All our four other business areas are part of the energy business, sell things, services or goods, even the forest division, they are reported in those business areas. This is a clean hydro and wind power business. We can illustrate on the next slide, Henrik, what it means when you run a hydro power station.

It's actually the only large scale battery there is, which means that we yet another quarter received 20% higher prices of the, for the hydro business than if you were to run it straight throughout the quarter. This includes also the support services that we sell to the grid operator.

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

That's the extra SEK 100.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

Yeah.

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

More. Finally, to sum up maybe more what the kind of a company Holmen is, it's just nice to see that our business model works in good and bad times, and the idea of growing houses and making sure that we contribute to the green transitions and also all five, I would say, business areas in our company actually contributes in different ways. All right. That concludes our presentation, and we're happy to take on questions.

Operator

We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on the touchtone telephone. You will hear a tone to confirm that you have entered a queue. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use only handset when asking a question. Anyone with a question may press star and one at this time. The first question comes from Johannes Grunselius from DNB. Please go ahead.

Johannes Grunselius
Equity Research Analyst, DNB Markets

Yes, good morning. It's Johannes here. I have two questions. The first one is on paper, obviously a very important contributor for profits for the group. There is, of course, headwind now from lower paper prices. At the same time, I mean, OpEx might come off also Q2 versus Q1. Can you help us to elaborate a bit on how you foresee sort of profits margins for Q2 here?

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

Well, you're right to call out. Prices are going down, of course. We can't comment on the magnitude of that. We did have this very good maneuvering on energy once again in the Q1. That we don't expect to repeat in Q2, that will be a headwind going into the second quarter.

When it comes to pricing-

Johannes Grunselius
Equity Research Analyst, DNB Markets

Yeah, I think.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

I think you should, see it as we make prices from quarter to quarter.

Johannes Grunselius
Equity Research Analyst, DNB Markets

Yeah. I think I missed that one, the detail. How much was the extra power gain from power sales in Q1?

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

Around SEK 250 million.

Johannes Grunselius
Equity Research Analyst, DNB Markets

Okay. that will not be repeated then?

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

No, not as we expected.

Johannes Grunselius
Equity Research Analyst, DNB Markets

Okay. Okay. On paperb oard, I think you mentioned that you were a bit late on price hikes, if I heard you correctly. Could you elaborate a little bit on the full year, how you sort of foresee where you are in terms of profits in Q1 compared to coming quarters? Where are you also in terms of, if you can mention sort of, I suppose you go on full volumes, but the market must be extremely depressed at the moment. Can you comment on that?

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

If I start, you mentioned we are a bit late on price. That was actually in paper where we were a bit late.

Johannes Grunselius
Equity Research Analyst, DNB Markets

Okay

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

... to increase the price that we see an effect on now in the first quarter. Paperboard, Anders, and the combination of paperboard and electricity.

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

As I mentioned, the SEK 150 million gain on electricity in sale of U.K. electricity in the first quarter, we don't expect that to be repeated in the second quarter.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

Mm.

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

I think you ask on pricing. We have seen the price changes. They came through in the first quarter in the paper board division. As of now, we don't expect any changes going forward.

Johannes Grunselius
Equity Research Analyst, DNB Markets

Right. Right. On volumes, I suppose you have exposure to a lot of small niche segments, so I suppose you're quite stable there on volumes going forward for the coming quarters.

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

I said before that also we feel, of course, that customers are destocking. Even if the underlying demand is good, at the moment, we do feel that customers, they don't need to buy as much per month, per quarter as they usually do. When that is going to be over and we come back to more or less normal, even though we're also having a climate or environment which is a bit depressed at the moment, it's difficult to say. Our order book is okay.

Johannes Grunselius
Equity Research Analyst, DNB Markets

Okay.

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

We also said that we are not 100% happy with the production, which means that the order book would have been a bit less good if we had produced exactly as we would have wanted.

Johannes Grunselius
Equity Research Analyst, DNB Markets

Okay. That's understood. Thanks a lot.

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

Thank you.

Operator

The next question comes from Linus Larsson from SEB. Please go ahead.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

All right. For Linus.

Linus Larsson
Financial Analyst, SEB

Yes, hello. I beg your pardon. I actually missed a previous question here. Coming back to paper board and the bridge into the second quarter, I think you've written in the report that the maintenance staff will have an impact of, I think, SEK 140 million. Please correct me if I'm wrong there. Also, please, could you just repeat what's the bridge from this energy situation? I missed that. I know you said it twice by now, but if you could please just clarify that again.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

It's a bit unusual situation. We did hedges, which meant that we locked in very good pricing in the first quarter, and that will not come back. We don't have hedges for the second quarter. That will mean a drop of SEK 150 million quarter-over-quarter. Then you're correct in, we will have a maintenance stop, quite a big one in the U.K., which we expect will impact profits negatively by SEK 140 million in the second quarter.

Linus Larsson
Financial Analyst, SEB

For Q2, EBIT in paper board is pretty much zero then?

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

We haven't performed the second quarter yet, so we don't know. We're still back in the first quarter. We prefer to talk about that. The math is correct.

Linus Larsson
Financial Analyst, SEB

Absolutely.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

Yes.

Linus Larsson
Financial Analyst, SEB

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's understood. Just on. Thanks for clarifying that again. Just on CapEx, you're announcing this investment at Braviken, SEK 450 million, that's in 2024 mainly? I, if I understand you right?

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

Yeah.

Linus Larsson
Financial Analyst, SEB

What for the group, what's the updated CapEx guidance for 2023 and 2024, if I may?

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

With the ongoing and the investment plans we have, we are around SEK 2 billion, both 2023 and 2024. Each year.

Linus Larsson
Financial Analyst, SEB

Each year.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

SEK 2 billion a year. Yeah.

Linus Larsson
Financial Analyst, SEB

Many thanks for that.

Operator

The next question comes from Martin Melbye from ABG Sundal Collier. Please go ahead.

Martin Melbye
Research Analyst, ABG Sundal Collier

Yes, good morning. My question was about these, SEK 250 and the SEK 150 million, just to be double sure that we should deduct SEK 400 million into Q2 from the Q1 number.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

Yes, that's correct.

Martin Melbye
Research Analyst, ABG Sundal Collier

Excellent.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

You know what I thought.

Operator

The next question comes from Oskar Lindström from Danske Bank. Please go ahead. Mr. Lindström, your line is open. Maybe you're on mute.

Oskar Lindström
Senior Analyst, Danske Bank

Yes, good morning. This is Oskar Lindström from Danske Bank. Just to double-check here, it is a SEK 150 boost that you had in Q1 from electricity hedges that will not be repeated in Q2. SEK 150.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

In paper.

Oskar Lindström
Senior Analyst, Danske Bank

And then-

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

In paperboard. That's correct.

Oskar Lindström
Senior Analyst, Danske Bank

In paper. In paperboard.

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

Paperboard.

Oskar Lindström
Senior Analyst, Danske Bank

You will have Yeah, paperboard. You will have SEK 140 million stop in Q2. That's correct?

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

Yes, that's correct.

Oskar Lindström
Senior Analyst, Danske Bank

All right, super. I have two actual questions, and both of them are on wood products. Could you talk a little bit about the market situation in Europe, which seems to be maybe not that bad, and what you expect for the rest of the year, or maybe what you expect for Q4, Q2 at least. A follow-up on that is, are you seeing any production curtailments from other producers or regions? You know, what's keeping the market relatively, you know, balanced at this moment?

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

I think you almost answered the question, Oskar. You're right. It's not demand, because demand is not very good. We have been able to keep up our deliveries in a good way, if you look at the statistics from us, and we have been able to find some pockets, perhaps, where the Russians used to be delivering. That's part of it. It's also supply, as you said. It's less supply from Canada, too high cost, less supply from some continental producers, combination of cost, and I guess also earlier infestation of bark beetles. You have the Russians, which are not in play when it comes to the Western world, at least. We don't expect to be saved by demand. It's a question of understanding what will happen to supply.

We also see that in Sweden, for example, it's a very fierce competition for the raw material, where some players simply don't find enough sawlogs to run full. We pull the handbrake a little bit. It's a game about where actually supply is more or less balancing the market today. It's not demand that we expect a lot from for the moment.

Oskar Lindström
Senior Analyst, Danske Bank

Do you expect this to be able to sort of continue into the rest of the year? With or, you know, is there any reason where we should expect supply to tighten further?

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

Difficult to say. Any comment?

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

It's difficult, but we don't see any signs of supply increasing anywhere, I would say. It's, we're filling holes that others have left, and that's why we do have very strong delivery volumes, both this quarter and the previous quarter.

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

Oskar, you see, we just keep the nose over the water surface level right now, and I think Swedes have fairly good cost competitiveness in general. That puts some restraint on the market as well.

Oskar Lindström
Senior Analyst, Danske Bank

All right. Thank you.

Operator

As a reminder, if you wish to register for a question, please press star and one. The next question comes from Robin Santavirta from Carnegie. Please go ahead.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

That's one negative.

Robin Santavirta
Equity Analyst, Carnegie

Thank you very much. Good morning, everybody. I have a question just to continue on wood products. You say you have good deliveries, that's good news, what about prices going forward? There's a bit of a mixed message. I can see at least the Finnish export prices going up now, a few months in a row, but I can see the U.S. lumber prices are not picking up, actually declining. Should we expect prices for you guys or in Europe?

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

It's not-

Robin Santavirta
Equity Analyst, Carnegie

On timber prices, to go up?

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

Robin, it's not easy to know where they're going. You're right. The U.S. is up one week, down the next week, et cetera. I said before that we feel we are maybe at the bottom at best, but it's not easy to know. When you calculate our average price in Q1, just to be clear, compared to Q4, it's up, but that's not due prices. That's not due to price increases. It's a better sales mix from our perspective.

Prices have in Q1 been sidelines with the latter part of the Q4.

Robin Santavirta
Equity Analyst, Carnegie

All right. I understand. In terms of, sorry if you have answered this already. I was a bit late to the call, unfortunately. In terms of paperboard, what do you see on demand and volumes? We've seen some peers with quite, sort of complaining about quite heavy customer inventory destocking. Is that what you see as well? If so, when do you expect it to end or are your sort of segments niche enough to not have that dynamics?

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

We are very happy with the niche where we are. Unfortunately also our customers are de-stocking. I think that goes in general right now. The order stock is a bit lower than normal. It's not really bad. We haven't taken any market-related downtime. We have not also produced at our very best. Could have been a bit better. We also wait to see when customers start de-stocking. We see a lot of interest and potential. That comes later. Sales potential in the future looks good. Right now we also feel de-stock.

Robin Santavirta
Equity Analyst, Carnegie

All right. Could you just sort of remind us about the price structure? I guess you have quite long sort of price agreement, but we can still see sort of increased prices quite significantly recently. Is there then sort of price pressure now already this year or is something that, due to the sort of contract structure we need to sort of wait to see if prices move next year or the year after that? How does that work?

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

Thank you. You see price pressure and you also see reduced prices in the statistics when it comes to different products like white-lined chipboard or testliner and kraftliner. You also see that folding boxboard and even more so in solid bleached board prices have not moved, and that's historically quite normal. When pulp prices goes up and down, that price tend to stay stable. We don't know where it's going, but we know that our prices are stable for the moment.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

You can add that our price increases have just covered the cost increases for chemicals and wood, and they are... Wood prices are still on the rise, so the cost pressure is not really...

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

It's not easing. Yeah.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

... it's not easing.

Robin Santavirta
Equity Analyst, Carnegie

Coming to that story, sort of with a lot of questions, but I guess that is quite important topic. How do you see pulpwood? Some of your peers say prices have stopped going up. Others say they will continue up. I can certainly see weekly prices in Finland go up every week.

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

Yes.

Robin Santavirta
Equity Analyst, Carnegie

How is that-?

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

Finland is very close to Sweden.

Robin Santavirta
Equity Analyst, Carnegie

for you guys? Yeah. Okay. How should we see? I mean historically, pulpwood prices trade down once pulp and paper board, paper prices turn down. Now it doesn't seem at least now to be the case. How should we expect? I mean, is this just a lag, or will it not happen this time, or?

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

Go on.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

You still have very strong margins making pulp. The difference between pulp price and wood prices is still way off historical levels. There's a scarcity of wood in the Nordics since the closure of the Russian volumes. We still see, last week we saw Forestry Association hike prices in Sweden, so we don't feel that the situation is stabilizing on the wood market.

Robin Santavirta
Equity Analyst, Carnegie

It seems to be the case. The final one I have on paper, so we covered the SEK 150 in paper board from electricity. In paper, how does the dynamics work? You sort of have a hedge at the very low price, and where you do not produce, you can essentially close that hedge and sort of make money because the hedge level is below the spot price. Is that sort of how it works?

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

We constantly work in numerous ways on the energy market. If you're in paper and any materials business, you need to be on your toes with respect to the energy market. It has been so turbulent, especially second half last year. There were, when you see that you will not consume as much electricity as you had bought, there were opportunities in the market that we took advantage of.

Robin Santavirta
Equity Analyst, Carnegie

That amounted to SEK 250 million.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

In Q1, yeah.

Robin Santavirta
Equity Analyst, Carnegie

... Q1. Yeah. probably the same amounts or even more in Q3, Q4 last year.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

Q4 was not that much because we had maintenance stops, and the market was quite difficult. We benefited in Q2 and Q3, but from other effects than the effect we had in Q1. This is a market where you have to be on your toes all the time. We don't expect to repeat that now...

Robin Santavirta
Equity Analyst, Carnegie

Right

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

because it's a bit more stable market we are in right now.

Robin Santavirta
Equity Analyst, Carnegie

I understand. sorry for many questions-

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

No, no.

Robin Santavirta
Equity Analyst, Carnegie

Good answers. Thank you very much. Have a good Friday.

Henrik Sjölund
President and CEO, Holmen

Same to you.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

You're welcome.

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question. I would now like to turn the conference back over to the management for any closing remarks.

Anders Jernhall
CFO, Holmen

Thank you very much for taking your time. Good questions, good discussions, and have a nice day and a nice weekend. See you soon. Bye-bye.

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