Welcome to Humana Q4 Report 2022. For the first part of the conference call, the participants will be in listen-only mode. During the questions and answer session, participants are able to ask questions by dialing star 5 on their telephone keypad. I will hand the conference over to the speakers CEO, Johanna Rastad, and CFO, Fredrik Larsson. Please go ahead.
Good morning, and welcome to this presentation of Humana's fourth quarter and year-end 2022 results. I'm Johanna Rastad, CEO, and next to me I have our CFO, Fredrik Larsson. This is a rather challenging report to present, given that we just over a week ago got the information that Swedish Health and Social Care Inspectorate, IVO, revoked our permit of Humana Assistans AB. That's the main company in the Personal Assistance business. I'll start this presentation, giving attention to that particular post Q4 closure event, and thereafter walk you through the remaining business. On the January 31st, Humana Assistans AB's permit to conduct operations within Personal Assistance and related services was revoked by IVO. According to that decision, Humana Assistans had to cease operations by the February 10th at the latest.
Being the largest of our personal assistance companies, Humana Assistans contributes with approximately 37% of yearly operating revenues and 41% of yearly operating profits of the group. We were given 10 days to terminate the business consisting of over 2,000 clients and 11,000 employees. We do not agree with the decision. The day after, on February 1st, we appealed the decision and asked for suspension, which was approved by the administrative court February 7th on the basis that the outcome of the process is uncertain. IVO themselves can appeal the suspension decision before February 28th. As I said, we disagree with IVO's decision, and we find the legal process to be unpredictable and its decision without proportionality. I can and will not speculate on the outcome of the appeal. That's up to the court to decide.
We are, however, very pleased just to be allowed to try this in court. On the February 7th, we were also notified that the insurance board would start sending payments directly to our customers rather than to Humana Assistans. This causes an additional administrative burden on our clients and on us as well, and also delays payments to us as they need to go via our clients. Operationally, it has been a very tough period with a lot of frustration, anger, and worry amongst clients, employees, and other stakeholders. Instantly after we got the message from IVO, we formed a crisis group that has managed this process since. Also to ensure that the rest of the operations continue according to previously set plans. Thankfully, Fredrik Larsson, our new CFO, started the February 1st.
A good timing and a warm welcome to you, Fredrik.
Thank you very much.
I understand there are lots of questions about the financial implications of what has happened. We are analyzing everything as we speak. It is, however, tricky for us to convey a lot of information regarding that due to the uncertainty of the coming period. If we don't have all the information you request at this moment, please bear with us. It has been a rather turbulent time. Over to the fourth quarter events. In the quarter, we grow with 17.5%. We proudly achieve the highest organic growth ever since the IPO, reaching 5.5%. All business areas, apart from Personal Assistance, contribute to the organic growth. We also achieve improved profitability, with operating profits reaching SEK 127 million and adjusted operating profits of SEK 89 million, hence finally beating last year.
In the quarter, we make revaluation of earnouts, which affects operating revenues as well as operating profits positively, with a total effect in the quarter of SEK 38 million. The inflation pressure continues, and we estimate it to be about SEK 14 million in the quarter. Staffing continues to be a challenge, also increasing sick absence rates. We do believe the outlook for 2023 to be challenging with both higher inflation pressure as well as continued staffing challenges. During the spring, we have important salary negotiations coming up in our main markets, and gladly, we continue working on social outcome measurements and also started drafting our first social outcome contract to really drive the development of care forwards. As illustrated in this picture, Personal Assistance and Individual & Family continue to represent our largest business areas, both by revenue and operating profits.
Here you can see the nice organic growth development, reaching new highs of 5.5% in the quarter, hence above midterm target levels. Profitability increases with 54%, with removing one-off effects following the revaluation of earnouts, the increase is 4.2% in the quarter. The leverage ratio increased due to increased lease liabilities following investments in new units and indexation of existing leases, acquisitions, share buybacks in the first quarter, and lower adjusted EBITDA. The large positive one-off in the quarter skews this picture. However, the underlying performance continued to improve throughout the year, and we are pleased to have an adjusted operating profit that finally beats last year. This is driven by growth through improved utilization and price increases, with the main contributors being Individual & Family and Elderly Care.
We have worked with price increases over the year, and it has paid off in the quarter. On the other hand, our positives are weighed down by mainly higher costs following shorter staff and inflation. Now over to Personal Assistance and their performance in the fourth quarter 2022. Sales growth continue, although organic growth has been challenged by the shortage of staff. We have a positive one-off of SEK 32 million following the new estimate of earnouts. Staff costs continue to increase, partly due to wage drift, but also overhead costs for assistance and administrative costs related to acquisitions. The reimbursement increase of 1.5% implemented January 1st is yet another example of the little priority given to individuals in need of Personal Assistance.
Over to a positive note, Individual & Family continues its strong development, growing at 10% with an organic contribution of 9%. This is driven by continued strong demand in the strategically selected areas, a high occupancy in both young and adult, as well as well-managed price negotiations. When occupancy is high, we can easier navigate our costs. Hence, we see a clear improvement in profitability, with operating profits reaching SEK 41 million, and this despite inflation pressure. Turning over to Elderly Care continues to deliver positive contribution, and that's mainly due to continued good ramp-up speed, but also clearly improved cost control. We still have relatively too high costs due to high sick leave and inflation. The new Elderly Care facility in Täby will start in the first quarter.
Over to Finland continues to achieve a solid organic growth of 12%, with struggles with high personnel costs due to high sick leave and short of staff. Some price increases has been achieved. As for January 1st, 2023, the new counties are in place, and it will be interesting to follow their development. Over to Norway. Norway ends the year with a stable demand and continued slow but steady increase in the number of clients, mainly in Child and Youth and Personal Assistance. Margins are lower than previous years, mainly driven by the challenges in Child and Youth, as well as up-gearing for continued growth by strengthened administration and system infrastructure. That concludes the review of the business areas. Short note on the cash flow.
The cash flow for the quarter amounted to SEK 90 million, with cash flow from operating activities increasing to SEK 259 million. Increased cash flow from operating activities is mainly due to decreased working capital, partly offset by increased interest paid. Cash flow from investing activities amounted to SEK 75 million, and cash flow from financing activities - SEK 94 million. Now over to the next page, and the reason why our society should care for Humana and other private care providers long-term health. If you want to have freedom of choice, alternative to the public sector needs to be there. To manage societal challenges, we need to have price and quality competition, as well as some actors driving positive change through social innovation. At Humana, we continue to measure quality through HQI and monitoring, and the monitoring of development of serious deviations.
HQI in the quarter measures to 76, with positive increases in many areas, such as more satisfying employees, clients and customers. We have moved into to present the updated social outcome measurements on our webpage. Here we update results over time and also launch new important measurements, so please have a look. In the quarter, we started to draft our first outcome contract, which is very exciting. Now some final remarks. With respect to Humana Assistans, our focus since the afternoon of the J anuary 31st is to, of course, first and foremost, care for our clients and employees. Our focus is set on them to secure their safety and well-being and, of course, our continued operations. We will also continue to process the case in court. We also need to see beyond crisis management. We're not perfect. We also need to improve.
We will review our current business model to understand how we can make it more sustainable going forwards. This is a work currently being done by our incredibly strong personal assistance team. We cannot forget we have other clients and employees in our company to care for, too. In the remaining businesses, we continue working towards our clearly set goals, that means securing staff, ensuring price increases, and drive social outcome measurements forwards. With that, over to questions.
Thank you. If you wish to ask a question, please dial star five on your telephone keypad to enter the queue. If you wish to withdraw your question, please dial star five again on your telephone keypad. The next question comes from Kristofer Liljeberg from Carnegie. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thank you. Start with two questions, then I could take the other ones afterwards. First of all, when it comes to your cash flows here, which are becoming more important, of course, how are you thinking about the investments, CapEx investments in 2023? For the personal assistant business, can you say anything what you could do to prevent clients and make them happy to stay as Humana's assistance provider?
Thank you, Kristofer. With regards to your first question, CapEx investments will, of course, be held at the limited. Some of our commitments we need to honor, of course, but we won't start sort of new larger projects. This is also something that we have, we have sort of toned down the pace already before this event, due to the leverage situation. Regarding your second question-
Sorry, is it possible to provide the approximate figure for CapEx versus what you have in 2022? It's fair to assume that you could half that amount or something similar.
Well, that's a good question. I, you know, I have to come back to that. I'll think about it, Kristofer, and see if I can come up with something.
that is worthwhile for you to get. Relating to your second question, I think there is plenty that is that can be done, and that's already being sort of happening right here and right now. We have a lawyer, a client base, and I think this event has lifted a lot of the questions that the whole Personal Assistance market as such has had, and the challenges that has prevailed over quite some time. You know, I actually believe, and I know from the responses we get from our clients, that, you know, we have a fairly large support out there.
you know, you know, I feel confident that if you wanna call it stickiness of our clients, is, you know, is relatively good. That said, just to give you some indication, I mean, there are two events that have, you know, that can trigger them, clients leaving over the last, what is it, nine days. With the revoked permit, the first, the first announcement of that, triggered about 40 clients leaving us. After the second event with the insurance board, coming out and saying that they will pay directly to the clients, that makes the administrative burden higher for some clients, and it's difficult for them to manage.
We lost approximately another 40, 50 clients post that. That's where we stand right now, and it's difficult for me to predict going forward. You know, given actually, you know, very positive feedback from several of our clients, we do believe, you know, that they actually believe in us also going forward.
Okay. That's helpful. Thank you. I'll get back in the queue.
The next question comes from Jakob Lembke from SEB. Please go ahead.
Hi. Good morning. I have a few questions. I think the first one is a follow-up on lost clients. I'm wondering, how flexible you are in adapting the costs to these lost clients, and also if you continue to lose clients, during 2023.
Well, thank you. You know, first and foremost, we will try to, you know, protect all our clients and our employees. It's been nine days since this event, and even though we have lost clients, we have also, during this period, gained the new ones. We are not thinking about adjusting the cost base right here and right now, but rather meet the market and, you know, make sure that we can try to offer a very good service even despite these decisions. I think that's, you know, that's the priority right here and right now.
Okay. I'm wondering about, if you have some sort of estimate on one-off related costs that you will have, relating to the situation you are in now.
no, we haven't made any assumptions yet.
Okay. I'm also wondering about your borrowing and if you have any co-covenants such as net debt, EBITDA, ratio, for example.
We have covenants, in the loan agreements with our banks. We have a very close dialogue with the banks, and have had since this event. It's a good dialogue with the banks.
Okay. There's no level you can communicate. I mean, you're a bit above your financial target now, for example.
We are slightly... You know, We have been too high on leverage over a few quarters. That's definitely so. We are monitoring that closely. That's also why we, you know, we have invested quite a bit in expansion, which is also shown in the growth achieved. It is clearly on the agenda to tone that down. It's no default or so.
Okay. Then as a final question, more operationally. I mean, Individual & Family obviously was a very weak quarter last year. I'm just wondering, is it possible to quantify how much of the growth this year is due to price and how much is volume?
It's an estimate, so you have to take it for what it is. The challenging bit with making that sort of estimate is that we have, you know, continuously, sort of shifts in the client base. You know, the level of the service offering is, sort of changes. I would say out of that 9% organic growth, it's roughly, you know, 2%-3% that relates to price increases.
Okay, understood. Thank you for taking my questions.
Thank you.
The next question comes from Karl-Johan Bonnevier from DNB Markets. Please go ahead.
Yes, good morning, Johanna. Coming back to Personal Assistance, just to get a feel for it. When Försäkringskassan is starting to pay your clients rather than you, how quickly can you say, turn around your system? Is that something that will, say, take a couple of quarters to be able to do it, or is it monthly or weeks that you feel before you're gonna be able to, as I say, change your setup to, so you get paid in indirectly?
Good morning, Karl-Johan. Well, I would say the main payment. I'll start with the main payment from the Social Insurance Agency, generally lands with the customers around the 20th each month. That's the main payments. Salaries are paid on the 23rd. It's a small frame for us to make sure that we get the payments. We have to then send invoices to the clients. We have some experience with this. During some of the acquisitions we have, so it had this, I would say, the administrative way of working. You know, that's really what the team is working intensively on now.
I think the difference in this respect is that it has to go through all the over 2,000 clients, and it's been done in a smaller volume before. It's a bit more challenging due to volume. On the other hand, it's one model fits all. I think in terms of the process, we know what to do. It's not a black box.
It sounds from you like you should be able to basically reshape the model already during the Q1 to this kind of new strange setup that you're forced to work in. It's from an administrative point of view.
Yeah. Yeah. That's what we believe. The team, you know, as soon as we got the message, the Personal Assistance team, you know, they are very, very well managed from an administrative point of view. They are already on this, having information sessions and instructing our clients how to go about it and also holding their hands through the process. That is a really important aspect. I mean, it is a service that we offer our clients because it's actually quite tough when you have a lot of personal assistants, people around you helping you out on a daily basis. It can get a lot at some point in time.
Yeah. I guess from a client retention point of view, if you, if you get questions about that, this must be one of the key items to also see that it really works because I guess that's something that the clients never has worked with either before. The more you can help, I guess the better retention rate you should get.
Yeah, exactly. It's important that we. Also in terms of communication. I think it's a lot about holding hands. It's also, you know, there are different ways of doing it, and there are different, you know, levels of services that you can achieve. It's really. I view this as an. You know, this is a bit for us to change our business model in a sense, just to make sure that we can offer our clients a good service and that we can, you know, keep our operations steady.
Then the second question is really looking at the price adjustments you indicated before in the previous question. Looking at the inflationary environment going out there for the moment, what do you see, say, in the form of, say, cost pressure that is that you're not able to mitigate through price increases at this stage? Where are the risks?
Well, I'll start with the first in the inflation pressure. I mean, in the quarter, we estimate the other costs, which is then still a relatively small portion of the total cost that we have of SEK 14 million. Fuel, electricity and fuel. There are two large components of costs being the salary increases that will happen depending on where you look in the organization, but somewhere across the latter part of the spring, early summer. That will really define how. If we have a high salary inflation, that will of course be challenging for us.
Then it's the adjustments of our leases that will land despite our efforts of trying to get a lower increase, but that will most likely land somewhere around 10%-11%. That's on the cost side. Our ability to balance with price increases, when we got the OPI in December of 3.5%, so that's for the Swedish Individual & Family and Elderly Care, that's something to sort of hang on to. And it's a lot easier within the Individual & Family segment, not only in Sweden, but also across the borders, to adjust prices. First because it's a higher sort of client turnover, but it's more individually negotiated prices.
How do you see Finland and Norway in this perspective looking at price cost?
It's if you put them next to each other, it's slightly easy for us to navigate the prices in Norway than it is in Finland. You know, the child welfare service, for instance, there we have invested quite a lot in making sure that we have a good offering, and it's easier to also be more competitive from our side on prices or get higher prices in child welfare.
Net, net looking at the, say, maybe salaries going up 4% or 5%, the lease is 10%, 11%, and as you put, it's still inflation in other cost elements as well. I guess the OPI of 3.5 in Sweden for the main operation is not gonna be enough for covering your cost expansion in the second half of this year then.
No, if it ends up at 4.5, of course, we have, you know, it will be challenging because the relative uptick won't be at that level. I mean, we get very different signals from the negotiation. It's actually quite difficult to say at this point in time where that will end up. I mean, there are some signals that we won't land at 4.5 either. But of course it will be. I think that's, I think it is, that will be the case in 2023. It's gonna be challenging from that perspective.
If this is the case for 2023, I guess the OPI should cover that and more going into 2024 at least for you. Is that a kind of a good assessment of it?
Well, yeah. If, yeah, if you draw that out.
Excellent. No, thank you very much and fight on.
Thank you.
The next question comes from Victor Forssell from Nordea. Please go ahead.
Thank you and good morning, Johanna. My first question relating here to the payments from the Social Insurance Agency. Just to understand the flows a little bit better. They announced this on the February 7th. Is there anything sort of retroactive as well where they won't be paying you for in January, February, et cetera? Some details here on the flows from here on, given the decision, well, just two days ago.
It's as per that day, the announcement, so no retroactive change.
All right. Perfect. Coming back to some of the previous questions, I appreciate you putting a figure on the clients that so far has left. You also mentioned that you've gained the new ones. I'm just curious to hear what time frame those are related to, and also if they are related to the market growth that we actually were anticipating for this year.
Interesting. Well, you know, the new clients, I mean, we are of course, like super pleased that there are new clients turning to us since IVO announced about the permit. It's been during this period that we have actually gained, but it's not a massive amount that can compensate for the loss. It's still, you know, it at least it sends signals that this is something that the industry is I wouldn't say used to, but unfortunately has had to live with for quite some time.
Looking backwards, I think one of the, you know, just to illustrate it with numbers, we have over 70 companies within Personal Assistance that have had their permits revoked looking a few years back. There are also, you know, at least what I know about 50, 60 companies that are under review. It is a, you know, industry-wide phenomenon. We're not alone in that sense. Coming to your question on the market growth, we do expect to see volume growth. I think, however, it will be challenging for Försäkringskassans or the Insurance Board to handle very quickly.
Their own estimate is that the initiatives that exists will have an effect somewhere around mid of the year. That's when, like, the curve should slightly turn in terms of the number of people receiving personal assistance. I think it's a bit early.
All right. Thank you. A follow-up there because it sounds to me as if, I mean, I'm not sure about the lead times here until you actually sign a customer and that is turning into effect. I mean, it sounds at least as if the clients you have gained actually have, you know, decided on choosing you as an operator beforehand and they sort of came into effect here in the last seven days. Is that the right way of seeing it, or is it actually, you know, the first contact that actually came here in the last couple of days?
Because what I try to understand is where the negative impact could actually start to materialize more if that happens, that is.
Yeah. You know, it's, I would say now the contact may have been taking before this. It takes a little while for us to make sure that we get all the paperwork in place and that we make, you know, the plans, the individual plans per client and so on. It's, you know, it's free for any client at any point in time to choose another provider or choose the municipality as a provider. You know, these are highly individual clients with highly individual needs. But I, you know, I wouldn't expect a high volume of clients turning to us here, right here and right now. Now, it's literally more of an illustration of that. It's not that it's only people fleeing us.
There are actually people that believe we're doing a good job and come to us despite this. I think that's just important to know. When it comes to how many clients we, you know, we will lose, it's really hard to tell. You know, the client stickiness or what you wanna call it is difficult to really estimate. What we do now, I mean, this is. It's for obvious reasons, very new situation for us, there are other companies that have ended up in a similar situation to us and also have had, you know, the processing court over quite some time.
You know, it's this initial period when people will move, and then we should be able to balance it over time.
All right. Thanks, Johanna, for your answers.
Thank you, Victor.
The next question comes from Kristofer Liljeberg from Carnegie. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thank you. I have some additional questions. First on Elderly Care, we're seeing quite good improvements here in the second half of the year with better occupancy rates, et cetera. How do you see the potential to improve earnings further for Elderly Care in 2023? Sorry, for Finland, could you comment on the current sick leave situation and how much salary increases you have been able to negotiate there? On again on Personal Assistance, could you say anything how we should model extra type of cost you will have now based on what has happened the last week versus otherwise when it comes to maybe the legal process, administration, et cetera? Anything on how significant that might be would be helpful. Thank you.
Well, thank you, Kristofer. Starting with the Elderly Care development, no, we are very pleased. You know, they clearly have increased their occupancy, making it so much easier for us to balance costs. Particularly in the new units, we still have a few units that are struggling with getting more clients, and we have dedicated action plans on each of them. I would say what comes around... They also, worth noting, is that they have a more controlled cost base now than they used to have. What is challenging for Elderly Care is the sick leave. That also relates to your second question in terms of Finland.
They are both at high levels and sort of approaching at the similar levels and in some instances higher than we had last year at this point in time. That is a challenge. It's not only COVID, it's also influenzas and calicivirus and so on. It is a challenging situation. We do notice that people are more precautious, which means that the absence rates are higher. Then sort of adding on to your next question on Finland, the salary increase. Well, the current collective agreement is valid from May 1st until the April 30th, 2024. Salary increases are agreed for one year at a time.
We will negotiate, if I'm not completely mistaken, I think in the second quarter, this year. That's when the negotiation will happen. In terms of extra costs, it is really difficult to tell. I mean, I think there will be extra costs on two levels. First of all, within Personal Assistance. That team has worked extremely hard over this period, and they've done a tremendous job. We have to be, you know, careful with that team because they have been highly exposed during these 19 days. I think, you know, there you can expect higher administrative costs in this shift by the insurance board, at the local level.
Now it's all, you know, all hands on this trying to solve it. I think we're gonna have to make sure that our clients or our employees get a chance to rest a bit. Then we will have central costs for the legal process, and of course, the support also financial support, over this period that we have used. Where that stands, I really don't know.
Okay. Coming back to Elderly Care. Given that the current run rate you earned, instead of making a losses as you did in Q1, Q2, you had SEK 9 million EBIT in the third quarter, now SEK 6 million.
I guess, is this the run rate we should expect now, even if you adjust or even if you open this new unit in outside Stockholm?
I think, you know, this is probably a reasonable level for us to stick to. It really depends on if we manage to keep the occupancy levels at these rates. So that would be sort of the underlying business if you wish. The Täby opening will happen in February. That will of course weigh down over this, over this year. So that's yeah. Which is maybe a bit unfortunate because we have a good traction in Elderly Care, so... You have to bear that in mind.
Okay. Even with Täby, you think you could continue to make SEK 5 million,SEK 6 million per quarter in earnings?
The Täby opening will definitely burden quite a bit, that's the expectations. It's, you know, I don't dare to give you projections on that really. You know, the underlying we should be able to keep at this level over time.
Okay. But given the financial situation that I guess it must be important for you to really drive earnings in all businesses.
... you know, try to stop any new openings, and I would assume the same for Individual & Family members.
Absolutely.
Would it make sense for you to, you know, to not doing this opening? Or maybe sell this property to someone else, or?
well, yes. I mean, we are looking at. You know, we have looked at those type of alternatives. Not isolated to Täby of course, but also looking at other things. You know, we will review everything also post this event in Personal Assistance because, you know, of course that shifts our focus for the coming year.
Okay. I have one final question on the payment now in Personal Assistance. You said you had some experience from this way of working with some acquisitions in the past.
Yes.
In those occasions, is it possible to say anything about how that impacts working capital?
How much longer it has taken? How many more days has it taken for you to get the whole collection?
I actually don't have that data. I can't answer that, Kristofer. I'm sorry.
Okay. Okay. Thank you.
Thank you.
The next question comes from Victor Forssell from Nordea. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thank you for taking my follow-up here. I'll just squeeze in one. Regarding you sort of turning around a bit your business model now in Personal Assistance, I would just like to get a sense of how much of what you can do is easing the sort of administrative burden for the clients. What I assume right now is that, well, your competitors are seeing this as a window of opportunity for them, of course, to be able to do business as you've been doing previously. Now the change of model makes it perhaps a bit more vulnerable for your clients.
Just to get a sense of how much can you release your clients' burden, and how much will they still be able to or have to do by themselves, just to get some underlying sense of that would be interesting to hear. Thank you.
Yeah. Well, thank you, Victor. That's also a good question. We can actually do quite a lot. I mean, looking at... I think we need to go back to why do clients, you know, search our help in a sense? You know, why, what's the reason for taking us as a provider? No, I think we have to remember that it's, payments is one, but most of it has to do with making sure we find the right staffing. Like the people around that is around the client, making sure that those people have the right education and training, and that we, you know, look after them in a good way.
Whereas the admin side is still a smaller aspect of the service we provide. For most of our clients, you know, we work tightly with them, so we can help them out. It's still important to know that the money's challenge is presented to them, then we can, you know, help them with manuals and everything so they know how to come about it. Like the Personal Assistance task, I think the decision of choosing a care provider has to do a lot more with the contact person you have and the individuals working around you.
From that perspective, I mean, there is a lot we can do to make sure that we have a good service offering and that also our employees are satisfied. If they're satisfied, they also do a better job around the client. Like the infrastructure we have with Humana Academy, for instance, where you're offered a training system and so on, it's a highly professionalized service from that perspective.
Okay. Thank you.
Thank you.
The next question comes from Albert Möller Broock from ABG Sundal Collier. Please go ahead.
All right. Hi. So I had, like, a follow-up question on the one from Kristofer regarding your earlier experience from handling the payment processes for Personal Assistance. I was wondering if you had experienced any credit losses from clients not paying their invoices and if you expect that to be a problem since there's quite a lot of clients to handle. My second question relates to the Norway segment where you said you had higher wages due to, well, a collective agreement. I was wondering, you said for Finland that it was to be renewed on the first of May. Do you have the same date for Norway, please? Thank you.
Well, thank you. Thank you very much for that. Well, I'll start with the credit losses. I mean, we haven't experienced anything like this before, but, you know, of course, we, you know, we have our ears to the ground and try to understand others, other companies that have been exposed to the same challenge. There is, of course, a risk of late payments, but based on previous companies' experience, credit losses are not expected to be significant. I can't, though, make any judgment on if that's, you know, 100% applicable to us, but that's at least what other people experience or other companies experience in similar situations.
When it comes to Norway, you know, the agreements for workers and social services was up for negotiations during the fall. I can also provide you with more details on how that sort of negotiation is when it's exactly due. It has been postponed due to, you know, the market conditions that we see.
All right. Thank you very much.
Thank you.
There are no more questions at this time, so I hand the conference back to the speakers for any closing comments.
Well, thank you very much for all your, all your questions. You know, I really understand that this is, you know, difficult for the markets to understand the consequences going forward. We will, keep you, updated on the developments that happens in the both the near and the longer term. Thank you very much