Earnings Call: Q3 2020

Nov 9, 2020

Thank you very much. And first of all, welcome to this presentation of our Q3 report for 2020. And my name is Perj Husram. And as you heard, with me is Robin Bouvemann and Frederic Traum. We can start Slide number 2. And just a short update on us. We are one of the leading installations groups installation groups in the markets of the Nordic countries, Sweden, Norway and Finland. Our main area of operation is installation and service of heating and plumbing, electrical, ventilation and cooling systems in all types of buildings. We have also started up installation consulting services in order to integrate the design work in our ordinary business. And the group now consists of almost 80 subsidiaries and just over 3,600 employees. We have a highly decentralized structure, and we are supported by a small central organization. And now we come back to that, but we will see we have strong profitability and high margins over time. So moving to Slide number 3. As you can see, we have now reached sales of nearly EUR 6,700,000,000. Euros We're talking LGM here, 12 month rolling, along with adjusted EBITDA of almost 590,000,000 That means an adjusted EBITDA margin of 8.8%. We also have a solid order backlog at nearly €6,300,000,000 I will say immediately that we don't like to talk so much about adjusted the detail, but and our adjustments are duly addressed to our earn outs. We estimate our earn outs every quarter. But as you can understand, the figures can vary a little, both up and down. If you go to Slide number 4, some highlights from the quarter. We can see that there has been a continued high rate of growth and, as I said, a good profitability. Adjusted EBITDA for the quarter was approximately €150,000,000 with an adjusted EBITDA margin of 9.2%. We have a very solid order backlog, as I said, €6,300,000,000 And that is quite high in relation to our annual sales, 94%. First of all, I'm very pleased to say that the results of segment Sweden, I'm very pleased with the results of segment Sweden. Also, rest of Nordic is still performing somewhat below the desired level. And with that also, I would like to point out, however, that it's a level below the standard that we ourselves have established. Looking at the industry overall, it's still relatively high. So we can move, I think, to Slide number 5. I can also say on Slide number 4 there that we have made 6 acquisitions during the quarter. I will come back to that, and we will come back to that. As I said, we had a good quarter despite the prevailing pandemic. I mean, that affects us all in one way or another. There has been no impact on our rate of acquisitions during the quarter, and we also have been able to maintain a high level of acquisitions despite the pandemic. During the quarter, there has, however, been a slight decline in production in some parts of the organization. Seq leaves, sometimes as high as 6%, has approximately doubled that's approximately doubled compared to the lower more around 3% that we usually have. Of course, that has impact production and is reflected in the figures showing negative organic growth. If you also add that the higher absentees of parents needing to care for the child, There is no other conclusions to be made and that has impacted production and is the root cause of our small negative organic growth during the quarter. We will see how that will affect us in the future, of course. And at the moment, I also will add we are back on normal figures. Also, it's still very difficult to assess the market. We are prepared to adapt should the pandemic affect us in future quarters. We are, of course, carefully watching how it all develops and closely monitoring our business areas and subsidiaries. We can with that, I think go to Slide 6. There you see that net sales increased by slightly more than 16% to SEK 1,600,000,000. During the quarter, as you saw, we made 6 acquisitions, where the combined annual sales is set at almost EUR 500,000,000 corresponding to acquired growth of 20.8%. Okay. We move to Slide 7, please. Seasonal fluctuations like summer vacation typically affect us each year in Q3. This year, however, performance in the Q3 was on par with the last quarter with even higher margins. That's rather unusual, but that's the way it is this year. Underlying all healthy margins is a large quantity of well managed small and medium sized projects at our company. Okay. Slide number 8. As I mentioned earlier, our order backlog is very solid at SEK 6,300,000,000. And as I also said, which corresponds to 94% of our annual sales. So despite the pandemic, we are taking many new orders and signing new contracts, most of which are medium sized projects in the range from $1,000,000 to $75,000,000 So with that, I think it starts to stand strong, thanks to the stability from our sizable order backlog and the diversification we have across different types of projects and markets. It also gives us flexibility in the sector where we operate. So if we move to Slide number 9, maybe you can take that slide, Robin. Yes. So very happy to talk to you about some of the examples of projects that we've done in Q3. Especially very proud of the first one, which is a little bit of a milestone for us. It is our 1st sustainable Instalco project. It is a partnership project together with Skanska of building 50 apartments with a very stringent environmental requirements. And it is our subsidiary in Malmo, Rohegern, who is performing this project, so it's heating and plumbing project. And for those of you who don't remember, we launched our new sustainability program in the spring this year, which is called sustainable Instalco project, which is built around 6 specific sustainability indicators. And just to give you a little brief update about a few examples. So it's a health and environmental, so it's a safe employment program that you have to go through in the start of the project. For instance, all our suppliers need to sign the installed code of conduct. And the project also has to demonstrate quite high climate savings. So it needs to be a climate smart project, so to say. So that's just to mention a few of them. And this project with Rohega and together with Skanska is boxes, so very happy with that. Also quite exciting other projects was the new head office at Fort Knox in Wekwe, where Eelog both designed and installed all the lightning in the 10,000 square meter building, which makes it, I must say, quite spectacular office if you ever get the chance to visit it. And it's only installed with LED light, which also it's a good example of the environmental impact that Instalco can make when it comes to energy consumption. And last, but definitely not least, is a little hint of what's to come. And the first sustainable Inspalka project is underway in Norway. It's not finished yet. So we can't really give it the full stamp yet, but they're well underway. It is our subsidiary, Moisheur, who's doing the heating and plumbing, cooling and also the sprinkler system installation for a new school near Kristiansand in Norway. So that's a few examples of projects that we have done and are doing in Q3 and gives a good understanding of type of projects we do in Instalco. So if we could please move to Slide 10. And here, I would like to talk to you about a little bit more in-depth about the segments. So if we start off with Sweden, it's been very high margins, and we've coped very well with the corona pandemic, I mean, reaching net sales growth of above 20%, and we're even achieving some organic growth in the segment Sweden, which we're very happy about. And as you can see, the tremendous growth in the order backlog as well. So Sweden is performing very well, and there is still a high rate of demand for technical installation. And mainly, I would say, it's driven by public sector in Sweden like schools, preschools, hospitals, clinics, nursing homes, that type of project. But it's also, I would say, we see productions in new rental apartments and condominiums remain at good levels. So that's also been driving. So really happy about the segment Sweden. And if we could then move on to Slide 11, please. Here, we see the development in rest of Nordics. And as Per mentioned, the margin is somewhat lower here, but still 6.7%. I think that's good in the type of environment we are at in the moment. And it's as Carlos mentioned, I think it's good when you look at the industry standard and especially if you count in that we are in a pandemic situation. And we've been affected mainly mostly, I would say, Norway due to the COVID lockdown. But as mentioned before, we have launched an action plan for some of our companies in specifically Norway, and we're following that strategy. So you will see a little decline here in turnover due to the fact that we are downsizing some of our companies in rest of Nordics to focus more on margin. And as you saw on the slide before or 2 before, we launched a sustainability program in Norway and Finland during Q3. And it was also very well received both by employees and customers. So maybe we can move on to Slide 12, please. And looking at acquisitions then. So as you see, the list has grown. We did 6 acquisitions in Q3. We see that the interest of becoming part of Instalco is really high. And I think that has a little to do also with the pandemic that if you want to be part of the group, you want to be part of a network, you want to be comfortable and make sure that you have the resources needed for the future as well. And so we're able to attract some really good companies. So the corona pandemic in that sense has not kind of impacted the rate of our acquisitions. And you see a focus on Sweden here, and that has, of course, a little to do with the traveling restrictions. But we are on €1,000,000,000 almost at €1,000,000,000 in acquired turnover during the year. And our goal is €600,000,000 to €800,000,000 So we're well above target in Q3. And for those of you who follow us, you know that we also have done acquisitions in Q4 already. And the pipeline remains very strong at the moment. So we're looking at a very good year when it comes to acquisitions. And maybe, Pari, you want to take a few examples of the companies we've acquired? Yes. I can jump in here and take the next slide, Slide number 13. And I'd like, as Robin said, to highlight 2 examples of companies that we acquired during the quarter. And the first one is in Sweden, Wimparten Group has its headquarter in Oredgrew and it has office in Nelke, Westmaland and Sverdland. And this is our first major acquisition in the area of ventilation solutions in that area, I would say. And it further strengthens our position as a multi supplier in Central Sweden. And I think that's very important that we have a strong position there. And the other I want to highlight the other companies is in Stockholm. And the company primarily works with municipal authorities and their housing companies. We have framework agreements. And with its main focus on providing professional service, the acquisition is also in line with our strategy to grow in the service sector that we have talked so much about. Other companies that we have acquired during the Q3 are FTX Technica Service and Bumaz Air, both in Norchoping, Bumaz Air in Lynnchoping and Andaman Lambo Technica in Helsinki. So good examples of acquired companies. And we can move to Slide number 14 and maybe take that, Robin. Yes. So here you see our financial target and dividend policy. And as you can see, we are in line or exceeding our financial targets. And like the slide here shows, also we are ticking all the boxes. So looking at growth, we are well above the 10% annual growth over this new cycle. We are also above when it comes to margin. So we're at 8.6% year to date, above. Looking at the capital structure, that also gives us a gives you a good understanding of our capabilities of kind of continuing doing our M and A. So we have a well we have good headroom here when it comes to our capital structure. Our cash conversion is on point, so to say. We are at 100%, which gives us a very good and unique possibility of using the cash that the business generates to acquire new countries. And our dividend policy stays unchanged, 30% of net profit. And maybe one thing I would like to mention when it comes to this is that if we could be get asked the question, so why don't we raise our financial targets? And here, the answer is quite simple, and I'll explain it again. It has to do that these are financial targets that are made to kind of withhold both good times and bad times. And we are looking at the long term cycles. And that's why we think these are good financial targets. They can resist not only when it's good times but also in some tougher conditions as well. And we also like the whole of our promises. And I think that is what we've shown over the quarters as well. So, Par, I leave it to you to summarize. Yes. Thank you. And I think we have shown that we hold what we promised for a long time now. But to summarize, on the next slide, Slide 15, we delivered a strong performance yet again in the Q3. Even though society at large, as you well know, and the entire world economy has been struggling with the effects of the COVID-nineteen pandemic, and you're all well aware about that. I think still the demand for technical installations has remained strong and stable. We also have been able to pursue a high rate of acquisition, having as we have mentioned several times now, added 6 new companies to the group during the Q3. And again and again and again, nevertheless, it's difficult to assess the market over time since the pandemic is still an ongoing concern. So last Slide 16, Slide 16. And as you know, by now, I'd like to wrap up these meetings with reference to song titles. And this time, I've chosen Ashford and Sing song from the 1980s, solid, solid as a rock. And nothing's changed it. This is how the song goes and how I feel about Instalco and our situation now. Despite these challenging times, we remain strong. We demonstrated that even in a year as unusual as this, we are still able to grow, maintain our margins and pay dividends in Stalco solid as a rock. So with that, I'd like to thank you all for joining in on this call. And we now like to take your questions, please. Thank We have a question from Karl Rangnasam from Nordea. Please go ahead. Your line is open. Hi, it's Karl here from Nordea. I have a few questions. Firstly, if you could give us any idea of the organic impact without the Nordics from the sort of phase out of less profitable business? And also given that the margin is still down quite a bit year over year as well as sequentially, are you planning on further measures? Or are we still waiting for the materialization further on? Okay. Starting with the organic growth or not. I mean, as Robin mentioned in especially in Norway, we are following our plans to tighten up and focus on margin instead of growth. So that's just in line with our strategy in Norway to do that and focus on margin. We have raised the margin a little from quarter 2 in other Nordics. Also, we I think we maintain good margins and we have a high margin in Sweden and we maintain it. So I think we're following our strategy from beginning of the year. I don't maybe you have something to add to that, Robin. No, I think it is hard call to say like how much we need to downsize the specific companies in rest of Nordics to become comfortable at the level that we think is profitable. So it's hard to give an estimate, but there are definitely significant cuts being made in a few of the companies. We are talking about, just to give an example, our company is going from $150,000,000 maybe down to $100,000,000 in turnover and a lot of few of them. But it's hard to say now before we kind of we need to find the level of where they are very profitable and then kind of keep that level. It's hard in the queue, but beforehand to say exactly where that level is. Is it 100,000,000? Is it 120,000,000 or is it 90,000,000 even? But you'll definitely see some cuts in especially in few of the Norwegian companies, If that answers your question, I'll be taking a bit more color. Yes. And are all cuts made or should we expect even? Are there cuts to be made in Q4? The cuts are not really made. I mean, you have to understand the business that if we announce something this month, they have already taken orders for a few months ahead. So there is a lag in the process. So if we announce something like in Q1, it takes a few months to kind of get that going. So you haven't seen the full effect yet, no. And that's also Yes, some effect you would start to see due to the fact that a few of these companies are not allowed to take new projects in the same rate as they have done before. And that kind of comes back to your margin there discussion as well that, I mean, you won't see the effect yet because, first of all, we need to kind of downsize a little bit. We also need to kind of make sure that the organization is at the right level. So saying that headoffs and everything follows with that. So it takes a while before you will start seeing the margin effect as well in Western Nordics, I would say. Okay. Perfect. And also on the backlog in Sweden, how could you give us any idea of how much of the sort of growth in the quarter was driven by large projects? I think the main thing when it comes to order book, and I think you can help me out here as well, Thierry. As you understand, we're not located at the same place anymore due to the fact of the Corona situation. So we have 2 different offices at the moment to secure this. But just to give you a quick understanding is that we took the large BLL project, the hospital project of €700,000,000 And you see you've seen like a few 100,000,000 rolling in from that in Q3. You saw a few in Q2 Q2 and you see and not here in Q3. We don't even if we had to announce the project earlier, we don't put it fully in the order book until it is signed. So that's also why the delay came now in Q3. Then the exact number of how much of this growth that you see in Sweden is driven by large projects, we don't have that number. And you can also add to that, Robin, that we are going from what we call Phase 1 to Phase 2 in several larger projects, meaning that we are speeding up now and we are Phase 2 is more when we execute and that means a different and then we put it into our order backlog. 1st, which is in Phase 1, it's more design work, lower pace on that. And then we when we step it up and then we put it in our order backlog when it comes to Phase 2. Okay, perfect. And the final one from my side. Also, I mean, your recent move to employ quite a few consultants from AFRI, Could you please share some more information of that sort of venture? And also, I know that you like the idea of entering projects early at early stage or sort of design phase. I mean, should we expect you to start expanding the consultancy offering in the other Nordics as well? Or how should we look at it? Yes, definitely. The main purpose with this is to integrate design work and execution and we integrate it in many ways. As you mentioned, of course, we can be in earlier stages in some projects. We also employ specialists in several areas. We employ consultants from different companies, of course. So we can be closer to the customer. We can also take on more complex projects. We can also but the main purpose is also to is, of course, to integrate the technical part, the more technical part and also with our ordinary work that we do installing. So that's the main. But there are several, I think, opportunities here and we will continue to grow that part. And we will go to Finland and Norway as well with the consultant part. And do you see the risk that the consultants, I mean, the big consultants view your move as an attempt to sort of compete with them and which could negatively impact your relation with them? I don't think so. I mean, it is natural that the part that we are I mean, there is about 50% of the total cost for a production site today is installation. And it's natural that we take a larger part of the design work with that. So we can offer to the customer more better solutions. I don't think there has to be a conflict there between us and more purely consultant companies. I think we can live together with that and I think we can have an understanding for each other's part of the project. I mean, that they we have we are their customer as well, and we will be in the future. So we are living side by side. I don't think this will interrupt that. Okay, perfect. Thank you very much. Our next question comes from the line of Stefan Andersson from SEB. Just A few questions from me. Just trying to understand organic drop there. In Q2, Norway, for instance, or also Finland were closed down to some extent, and people were home from kids were home from school, and we had all that as an impact, calling it sick leave, I guess. I would have expected less negative effects from that during the Q3, some easing, really some improvements. So would you say that the further deterioration here is more relating to the downsizing of some of the international operations? Or am I misunderstanding the situation? I can comment a little bit about the sick leave situation. And you also have to understand that I mean, there are a lot of restrictions, not only lockdown, but in Norway, if you have one person contaminated of COVID in the construction site, you need to put the rest of your people in quarantine as well. So we have been quite unfortunately in a few cases where we had to put a lot of people in quarantine, like self quarantine, and that has affected us. And that is also what you see in the sick leave numbers. So that's I mean, I guess, we were luckier than many companies in Q2 and did not have as much sick leave, but instead, we got a lot sick leave in Q3, mainly due to the fact that we have to put people into quarantine. And I mean, we are running a business where you cannot work from home in March of that. I mean, me, Per and a few others, we might be able to work from home. But like the rest of the 3,600 people that we have employed are not able to work from home. So I mean, I think we'll see some higher sick leave numbers than we are used to due to the fact. But also, we want to be take our stand for society as well and not some people that are might be sick to work as well. I don't know if you want to add anything to that, Tahira, or you agree with me? No. I think that's right. I mean, we are taking care and we are strict rules when to go to work or not. And I mean, it's we're trying to take care of our employees, of course. So but I think we're doing the right thing there. And I think we are down on the sales, so we are down to normal figures now when it comes to Seqin. I think we have done the right thing. So does that mean a follow-up on that? Does that mean that you're growing again in the Q4 organically? You are very focused on growing organically. As I said, I think we are looking for the 1st 9 months, we have grown with about 4 point 5%. I'm rather satisfied with that. And we are not looking into each quarter organic growth or not. But and we have a strong I mean, we've been doing a lot with cooperations between the companies, and that will lead to organic growth. But of course, it can go up and down. And if you look just to a quarter, I can't assess next quarter or even how it was this quarter, Q3. But in the long term, I'm absolutely sure that we will grow organically because that's the fundamental of the Instalco model. And with the close cooperation between the companies helping each other, best practice and all that, we will grow in the long term perspective, organic as well. But we don't focus on it. It's better to, as Robin mentioned in Norway, to decrease the turnover level and focus on margin and then from that point of view going upwards. Okay. On that topic then, could you in any way give us a little bit of indication of magnitude of downsizing you're talking about in Norway? Are we talking about 2% revenues or 10% or just to re understand what we're talking about here? Yes. I think I said this I'll say the same to you as I said to Carl just a few minutes ago. I mean, it's hard to say how many percent will downsize. We need to find the new we need to find the level of where the company can turn over our 8% in margin that we demand from our subsidiaries. And until we find that point, it's very hard to say where that is. Is that at if it's a €150,000,000 company, is that at €120,000,000? Is it at €100,000,000? Is it at €90,000,000? It's very hard beforehand to say. But you will definitely see a few companies in Norway where we need to cut probably $50,000,000 $60,000,000 in turnover and a few of them. So if I And then what we can add to that straightforward is that it's we're talking about 2 companies. 2 companies in I think we have 13 or 14 companies now in Norway. And we're talking about 2 companies. So you can assess it almost yourself, Stefan, how much that will be, as Robin mentioned, the figure there. But we will not say it is 2% or 5% or whatever. We will wait and see, and we will take it slowly from what is this level that we think and where the management can handle the situation and their levels strong. Yes. No, that's fine. Thank you. I mean, yes, it was possible in the end then. Just my problem was I didn't know if you were talking about 50% or 10%. So that's I mean, we didn't know anything. That's what we're trying figure out. So thank you for that. No, no, no. You are more close to the truth when you say to something, but not of course, not 60% or something like that. That's good. I think I got what I needed. I got what I needed there. Okay. So then another question is, normally, we've seen a rather good pickup in margins into the Q4. And the power during the presentation, you might have said or I might have misunderstood, I don't know. But you were a little bit saying that Q3 in Sweden was very strong. So could you maybe, from that point of view, help out a little bit with that kind of quarterly seasonality that we are used to? Is it less of that in this year or because of a very good Q3? Or should we still hope for that kind of normal pattern? As you can see, we went to Slide 7. I think we had the quarterly results. And as you can see, normally, quarter number 4 is the strongest. But also, we can see this year that it's more even between the quarters. I mean, the quarter 2 and quarter 3 was almost at exactly the same level. Quarter 1 was higher than maybe higher than normal. But ordinary quarter 4 is the strongest, absolutely. So of course, we hope for that. But we also have to take in consideration that the ongoing pandemic and other things. So as usual, we can't promise anything. But usually, it's the strongest quarter. Sorry, I forgot to ask about the Norwegian side there. Do you expect any charges or cost associated with the downsizing or is it done more? No, it's just yes, it's operational and it's just in what we do. Of course, we can we will reduce some overhead costs during this period, but no unexpected I don't think there is any No major cost. No major cost. No major cost. Yes. And then on that topic of non recurring items, I mean, looking back, you've had transactions cost on that line. And also now you commented to Cortez in Rome here about the earnout adjustment. Could you maybe I mean, you had firstly, you did some positive revisions. You had a lower churn out than you thought in last quarter. Now you have to you have some other companies, I guess, that are doing better than you thought. You have to move it up. I mean, is this something you really need to do on a quarter basis? Or seems like something you could do annually, but I don't know. Should we expect this going forward as well, ups and downs in that number? Yes. I mean, we've tried to cope here. I mean, we have some people that want us to do it quarterly or even monthly. We have our auditing committee that wants it quarterly. Ourselves, we think it's a lot of ups and downs. So it's ongoing discussion within the companies, let's say, Stefan. And we have many stakeholders here to also, how should I say, try to please here. And you might be one of those who thinks that it's unnecessary to do quarterly, but we also have a few that wants it quarterly. So it's yes, it is a little we're in a between a hard place and a rocker, what do you say? So it will be quarterly going forward most likely? Yes. Going forward, as it looks now, it will be quarterly. And just as you say, I mean, you'll see fluctuations, ups and downs depending on a lot of the prognosis that the company gives us and how we also value it. And we try to do as professional evaluation as possible. I think this quarter, we downsized a few and upsized a few, so to say, when it comes to earnouts. Yes. A small thing, I don't think it's very important, but just noticed that in the quarter, maybe the working capital was a little bit soft. It seems to be tying up a little bit more. Money. Is there something specific in there or No, it is that last quarter was very good, and we had a lot of the English word now, sorry, Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you. It was not as high as last quarter. So that's the main effect. And also that we have to pay out all the vacation pay. That's also affecting it. Yes. Okay. That was all for me. Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Jonas Jonsson. Jonsson. Just had a question. I had a question on the I mean the sick leave and you mentioned the impact of that. And you mentioned the lower level of production that has led to lower revenues. But is there any element of a delay? I mean, that production you sort of move into Q4 or are these revenues basically gone? I would say there are some delays, absolutely. Our customer is a little bit more cautious now, and there are delays, absolutely. And that has affected us a bit, absolutely. Okay. But when it comes to those 3%, as we mentioned, I mean, a lot of them will probably be picked up, but we're not sure that it's us or that we have to I mean, a few of them are, of course, gone due to the fact that we maybe have to ramp in someone else to do the job if we couldn't perform it. And then the revenue went to someone else because we had to ramp somewhere to do it. Okay. Yes, sure. But it's hard to say how much. A few of them might be spinning over to Q4, but a few part of it is gone, I guess. Then also, I mean, the cash flow, we were into that working capital. And apart from that and the fluctuations from quarter to quarter, I mean, basically this year, so far, you're more or less self financed in terms of operating cash flow. I mean, the acquisitions you make are basically self financed. And that also means that, I mean, your net debt is roughly at SEK 1,000,000,000 and that is very far away from the target. So looking at being looking a bit ahead now, I mean, the cash flow position should improve. You're still making new acquisitions that are contributing to the cash flow. Your debt level is low. You have your targets for acquisitions. But would you consider doing something? I mean, sooner or later, that would be an issue for you. I mean, you will be very cash generative. But would you be willing to do something bigger? I'm thinking more in terms of another geography, maybe another business area that maybe could be a little bit more expensive, but on the other hand, could increase your margins in general? How are you looking for that? We are very open minded when it comes to new countries or but we have 2 or new geographic areas or broadening our offering or bidding. But we have to wait to the right time. I think it is very it's you have the timing has to be right. But we are open minded for it, and we will look into new geographically geographic areas and also, as I mentioned, new specific areas. We are close to we have talked about that before. We are close to several other business areas like, for example, alarm and security and other things. So I don't I think that's a possibility for us. And it's an important study that we will do now and then strategic decision as well. And we will discuss that. We had a board meeting, of course, today and we discussed it there. And as I said, we are very open for it. So it's in line with our discussions now to broaden and to look into new geographic areas. However, what is determining the timing of that? I think I think you're waiting for the right timing. Yes. The right timing is when we found the right management, when we have a stable company or a platform of companies in geographic areas that we can feel it's the have the right fit for Stalco. They are stable. We have good management team a good management team there. And we and that's so Hindustalco started. That's the way Hindustalco started and that's the way we want it to grow into new areas. Of course, it's also a matter of price. We I mean, you have noticed that we acquire companies 4 to maybe 4 to 5 times EBITDA, 4 to 6 times maybe EBITDA sometimes. And that's also a part that we want to continue and that we and also that we are ready to pay for a company. So it's a puzzle. Okay. Thanks a lot. There are no further questions registered. So I am back to the speakers for any closing remarks. We got just a few questions from the audience by the web regarding consultancy and sustainability. I'll try to summarize them. First, the consultancy idea. Is it likely that we will see also acquisitions, larger acquisitions within the consultancy business? Not larger acquisitions, smaller acquisitions, absolutely, but not larger acquisitions. Smaller acquisitions where we can find companies, consultant companies that fits into our strategy. But that means they are smaller and more specialized, not general or larger companies. And the other few questions about sustainability, if I summarize them are that the sustainability is getting more and more important. Will that be an advantage or disadvantage for Infalko in the future or where are Infalko standing here at the moment? I will say it's an advantage. And we are working very, very hard with this. We launched our sustainability program during spring, summer and now at fall as well. We are working very hard with this. We are in the middle of energy savings programs and sustainability on every in every matter. And I think we can have a large advantage in this because we have started early with it. And also, I think we have come a long way. So we are ready to take that position as a company that will be in the middle of this circle. Okay. No further questions from the web. Okay. Thank you very much for joining in and thank you very much. And we will stop there and say hi to you all. Thank you very much.