Hello, and welcome to Investor’s Q3 Presentation. As usual, our CEO, Johan Forssell, and our CFO, Helena Saxon, will present our results. The presentation will be followed by a Q&A session. Also, as usual, you can follow our presentation either through the web or over the phone. Once again, welcome.
All right. Also warmly welcome from me. We all know that we are living in a turbulent world out there. But I think that in this environment, we delivered a strong third quarter. We actually had net asset value growth in all our three business areas. Most gratifying, I think, is that we had a very strong operational performance within Patricia Industries and our subsidiaries, and I will come back to that later on. If we look forward, of course, there are a number of positive aspects. Many of our companies have strong order books. We are seeing some easing on the supply chains, even though many challenges actually remain.
For us at Investor, of course, we also have a resilient portfolio with about one-third of our total assets being within medtech and pharma side, which of course is more resilient normally in a downturn. Having said all that, there are a number of consumer headwinds that we all can read about in the media. And it is likely so far we only see it or have mainly see it, I should say, among the uh companies with direct uh exposure to the consumer. Gradually, when we go into next year, of course, it is likely that we will start to see a more broader impact of that. But I think that we are well-positioned for that. We have a portfolio of strong companies. They have market leading positions.
They have very high profitability and cash flow. We at Investor have a strong financial position. I think we are ready. We are also working very actively, of course, with our companies to prepare should we enter tougher times uh when it comes to continuous planning. Also, of course, a lot of focus on making sure uh that we will continue to invest in priority areas that will be absolutely crucial to actually beat competition long term. If we then look at the results or the figures for the third quarter, you can see that the stock market was down 4% in the third quarter. Our total shareholder return was down 3%, so more or less in line with the market. Our net asset value actually grew by 3%.
That is a combination of the strong operational performance within Patricia, but also a significant outperformance in our listed portfolio compared to the market. If you look on the year-to-date figure, you can see that while our TSR is down, almost in line with the market a little bit better, but the net asset value is only down 16% or about half of the stock market. A few words about the listed company in the third quarter. The total return was 2% compared to the stock market being down 4%. Also for the listed companies, it's about half of the downturn in the market being down 16% year to date compared to the stock market being down 31%. In the quarter, we invested half a billion SEK in Atlas Copco, a company that we have strong belief in.
We believe it has a very good exposure to growth trends out there, both when it comes to the climate improvements and also when it comes to the digitalization and so forth. ABB also completed the spin-off of Accelleron, and working with the business portfolio management is important for all our companies to create long-term value. We could also see for these two companies that the 3Q results that they presented, Atlas Copco yesterday and ABB this morning, that they continue to deliver very strong results in the third quarter. These companies are, of course, very important for us being the largest and second largest portfolio in our listed companies. As I said before, it's all about making sure we are prepared should we enter tougher times, while at the same time investing to be in long-term.
You need to do both, and that is the critical part. And for some companies, that is not super easy right now because you might have strong order books you want to deliver. At the same time, you know that it might become tougher going into next year. It's you need to balance all these different aspects, but I think our companies are well on it. Patricia Industries has grown into a nice company. Today, we have on a rolling twelve-month basis, revenues of more than SEK 50 billion, and the EBITDA amounts to about SEK 11.5 billion. This is rolling twelve-month figures. If we look on the Q3 results isolated, the corresponding figure was SEK 14.4 billion on revenue and SEK 3.4 billion on profit.
We are right at the current level, running at a higher level than this. You can also see that this portfolio consists of very strong companies, 80% within medtech, and then also exposure to industrial technologies and infrastructure. Here you can see the development over a longer period of time since Patricia was created. Here you see the profit per quarter, and also the rolling twelve months figures. I should stress that these are the reported profit levels, including all transaction costs. But the important part is not the details, it's the long-term development. Secondly, you can also see that in the third quarter, it was a record profit, and for that matter, it was a record sales also.
Moving down over to Patricia Industries, uh the total return was 5% in the quarter, and that leads to a total return of about 2% year- to- date. The sales growth amounted to 32% in the quarter, of which 10% was organic growth in constant currency. We had a good profit development, as you can see, being up 34% in the quarter. The focus for Patricia is to make sure we integrate the recent add-on acquisitions made. The development is very encouraging. It's good development on the acquired companies. Also, to continue to work with efficiency improvements, including price management. It's gratifying to see that we are now seeing price increases filtering through in a number of our companies in a good way.
Finally, continue to make sure that we capture all the growth opportunities. Our companies have a number of tailwinds, and we need to make sure to capture it, whether it's new products, innovation, or expanding in new customer groups and geographical markets. I will not go through all the companies on this list, but I will, of course, come back to Mölnlycke later on. Let me say a few words about some of the companies that might need a little bit of explanation. If I start with Laborie, in terms of value, our second-largest company in Patricia, they had an organic growth of 20% in the quarter. We see a strong underlying demand for Laborie. It's actually a really good performance because Laborie continued to see supply chain challenges in the quarter.
Despite that, actually delivered a 20% growth. The profit margin expanded quite a lot, as you can see. That was despite, for this company, negative currency effect, significant investments in R&D, and also large investments behind the product launch of Optilume within urethral strictures. I should also say that it's great to see the development of Permobil in the quarter, growing organically at 12%. Actually a very broad-based development, both when it comes to the different product categories and also when it comes to the different geographies. And also here, we saw a good margin expansion, and that was driven by both operational leverage, price management, and currency, even though there is still elevated costs for Permobil. I think I should also say a few words about Advanced Instruments.
You see the organic growth was lower than we have reported previously at 3%. The main reason is weaker sales of instruments to the biopharma in the quarter. When it comes to the margin, it looks like we had a very good margin expansion. Actually, if we adjust for the transaction cost to Solentim in the previous period, the margin was down. There are two main reasons for it. One is just more mathematically. Solentim and Advanced Instruments and Artel that we have acquired, these companies have lower margins than the legacy business within osmolality testing, so it's just a pure mix effect. That is one part of this.
The other part is a combination of the fact that the instrument sales were lower and at the same time, as we are investing heavily into this company, both on the commercial side and within R&D. Finally, I should say a few words about Sarnova, the only company that actually didn't report organic growth in the quarter. The main reason here is that within the acute segment, the previous year was extraordinarily strong due to high sales related to the Delta variant of COVID-19. This year, the flu season has started later compared to last year. These are the two main explanation when it comes to Sarnova. The cardiac business, I should say, had a very good development in the quarter. Moving over to Mölnlycke.
You can see very strong development with reported sales amounting to 16%, of which 9% organic. All three large business areas actually grew nicely. Antiseptics was down, but that's a small part of Mölnlycke, as you know. Wound Care was driven by strong underlying demand, but also very good commercial execution by the company. Here we can see over the last 1.5 years-2 years, that Mölnlycke has been gaining market position within Wound Care. On the ORS side, we saw a healthy growth of 10% in the quarter. Here we see that elective surgeries are now coming back after the pandemic. But I should say that that continued for this business, one of the challenges is that there is actually a shortage of nurses out there.
We see elective surgeries coming back, but there is also a limitation because of the shortages of nurses in some areas. But overall, a good development. For Gloves, we have seen a number of quarters going back that have been quite challenging as you know, uh due to uh low uh production capacity, but also due to challenges in the global supply chains. We are now seeing that the production capacity is up and running fully, after the challenges related to the pandemic previously, and we can also see easing in the global supply chains. Here we saw a very good growth of 15% in the quarter. I will come back also to further investment in this area to capture the very strong demand that the company is seeing in this area.
The profit was up 24% with the margin improvement of almost two percentage points. This was driven by the fact that even though raw material and logistics remain elevated, the impact is now less pronounced. Partly this is due to price increases coming through. The organic growth, the operating leverage is of course one additional explanation, and then in addition to that, also positive currency effects. We have seen a number of quarter, and that goes for Mölnlycke, but also for other companies in our portfolio, where we have seen that the cash flow has been, call it, below normal levels. In this quarter, we started to see more normal level of cash flow generation. The key reason is that the working capital stabilized, and mainly that inventory now is reaching a more stable level.
Finally, Karl-Henrik Sundström has succeeded Gunnar Brock as chair for this company. He knows the company well because he has been a board member since 2018. This investment was done or inaugurated actually just a few weeks ago. It's a big investment, EUR 50 million investment in surgical gloves in a factory in Malaysia. There are two main reasons for it. One is capacity and one is sustainability. On the capacity side, this investment will increase the capacity by about 20%. There are a number of improvements when it comes to sustainability. One is that it will give a much better carbon footprint. Secondly, the wastewater handling will significantly improve. Very important of course also, the employee conditions is significantly better in this compared to the old plants.
Moving from Patricia then over to EQT. The value change was up 2% in the quarter, driven by the listed company EQT that was up 5% during the quarter. The funds were down slightly in the quarter. Cash flow has continued to be strong, almost SEK 1 billion, leaving the year to date to some SEK 4.5 billion to Investor. Just a few days ago, they announced that they have now completed and closed the acquisition of Baring Private Equity Asia. EQT, as you might know, have some SEK 90+ billion in assets under management. If you combine that with the SEK 22 billion under assets under management in BPA, it will give a very large size on the assets under management being SEK 114 billion together.
Importantly, this will position them well in the Asian region, which is a good growth region in this business. To summarize, I think we are well-positioned if we now would enter in tougher times. I don't have a crystal ball, but what I hear, of course, is that there is a clear risk that the headwinds facing the consumer will gradually filter through also to a broader decline in the economy. Perhaps the biggest risk relates to Europe. Time will tell if it will be, call it a little bit minor downturn or a more severe. If it happens, I think we are really ready. The companies are prepared. They have contingency plans in place. We have companies with very strong market positions, high profitability, and good cash flow.
We have really prepared refinancing our balance sheet during a number of years. We have SEK 24 billion in cash, and we are ready to act should opportunities arise. With that, I hand over to Helena.
Thank you, Johan. Let's have a look at the adjusted net asset value development in the quarter. At the end of September, we landed at SEK 626 billion, and this means that the average annual growth with dividend added back amounts to 13%, which compares favorably to SIXRX 7%. The total return or the total adjusted NAV growth was 3%, and this slide shows that all business areas are contributing to this growth, 5%, 2%, and 2% for Patricia, Listed Companies, and EQT respectively.
Going into the Listed Companies part, two-thirds of the portfolio or SEK 424 billion at the end of the quarter, we can see that it's a mixed performance between the companies that Atlas Copco, Nasdaq, ABB, and SEB contributed significantly to NAV growth with strong returns while Husqvarna, Saab, Electrolux Professional, and Ericsson had a tougher quarter. And the overall performance of this business area, of course, strong at 2% compared to SIXRX -4%. Going over to Patricia Industries, almost SEK 150 billion and a quarter of our portfolio, we usually show this graph with the estimated market values development since the second quarter. As a general theme, one can say that increased earnings and currency compensated for a general multiple contraction.
We can also see in this picture that all subsidiaries, except for Piab and also three Scandinavia, contributed to the growth in the quarter. Looking at the major drivers, we can see that SEK 2.3 billion of estimated market value change was generated by Laborie because of higher earnings, currency impacting positively and unfortunately then lower multiples impacting negatively. Mölnlycke also had lower multiples in the quarter, but earnings, currency, and cash flow contributed to the value increase of SEK 1.5 billion. Advanced Instruments value increased by SEK 1 billion, and this was due to currency that impacted positively. Permobil had higher earnings, but again, lower multiples had a negative impact.
Three, a little bit unique this quarter, had higher multiples and earnings impacting positively and generating SEK 0.8 billion of estimated market value in the quarter. Investor still has a strong balance sheet and no maturities until 2029. The average maturity of the total debt portfolio is over 12 years. The leverage remained around 2% in the third quarter, at the lower end of our target range of 0%-10%. Finally, a slide on the average annual total shareholder return. Of course, the last year has been weaker even though we have outperformed. Looking at the longer term, five, 10 and 20 years, we can see that we have not only outperformed SIXRX, but also achieved well over our internal return requirement of 8%-9%.
With that, I would like to hand over to Viveka, who will take care of the Q&A session.
Yes. Thank you, Johan, and thank you, Helena. We will now start our Q&A session. As usual, you can raise your questions over the phone, and we will have our facilitator, Arianna, handling that. You can also raise questions over the web. We will start with the questions over the phone.
Excuse me, this is the conference call operator. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. To remove yourself from the question queue, please press star and two. Please pick up the receiver when asking questions. Anyone who has a question may press star and one at this time. The first question is from Joakim Gamel with DNB Markets. Please go ahead.
Thank you, good afternoon. Starting off with, we can once again stick with Patricia Industries, but are you seeing any signs of that, say, order books are to a certain degree not filled with only real demand where they have so to say been more inventory adjustment building them up, so to say. Are you seeing any signs of cancellations into Q3?
I don't know if I got your question correctly, Joakim. When it comes to the order intake and the order book, what exactly is the question?
Whether you've seen any signs sequentially if there are, not necessarily there, but if order books have been boosted throughout the years driven by more inventory.
Mm-hmm. Okay
... related stuff-
Yeah
Are you seeing any signs of cancellations?
Yeah. I think overall when it comes to Patricia, that the effect on orders versus sales and order books are much less than many other companies. On the listed companies, we have a number of companies that sell more broader large capital equipment, where there has been clear challenges in the supply chain. Here, we have seen extraordinary strong order intake in a couple of areas.
On that part, I think that some of this has been that you have pre-ordered because you want to have a certain place in the order book. On that side, I must say that I'm not hearing anything about cancellations yet. I think that overall, pre-ordering in some cases, yes, but cancellations, no, that's what I hear. In Patricia, we have a lot of the business is actually related to consumables, and that's more of a daily flow. I think the most important question for that is to what extent there could be excess inventory in the customer segments. There can always be customer adjustments on the inventory, and that is sometimes tricky to know, but I haven't had any clear signals in either direction on that.
Thank you. And uh since parts of your listed portfolio seems to be trading below share levels, which seems to basically go below your assessment of the fair value given where you have built positions historically, can you comment anything about where you see the most potent opportunities, whether it's built in the Patricia platform or in the listed environment as we speak right now?
No, I will actually repeat what I said before, that we will try to find opportunities in both these areas. In the previous quarters, we have actually made most of the investment, as you have seen within Patricia, with a lot of add-on acquisitions that actually perform really well. In the latest quarter, we invested SEK 500,000 in Atlas Copco. We will always act like that, use the opportunities we see. A comment on the listed side that I think I mentioned at some previous occasion is that there can be a number of reasons why we can or cannot invest in different companies. It can be related to the size of our ownership, it can be related to restrictions, et cetera, et cetera.
When we find great opportunities and we believe that it's in line with where we want to focus, we will of course try to use them.
Thank you. Just finally, a more kind of general question with regards to that earnings are somewhat boosted by effects across the portfolio. Can you say anything about where kind of productivity levels are in the underlying portfolio in relation to your ambitions?
Yeah. I think that it differs between the companies. As I said, one should remember that if you look on our subsidiaries, we have four subsidiaries that are actually U.S. companies, and they face a quite different situation than some of the Swedish companies. So that's one thing. It differs between the companies. Generally, we have benefited from the currency, but if we strip out the currency effect, add-on acquisitions and others, we can see that we have a healthy margin contribution on the additional organic sales in the quarter.
Thank you. That's all for me.
Thank you.
The next question is from Oskar Lindström with Danske Bank. Please go ahead.
Good afternoon. Two questions from my side. The first one is on Mölnlycke. I mean, could you perhaps tell us a little bit more about the contract structures and pricing outlook for Mölnlycke? You know, are there more price increases ahead? You know, if you can provide more detail on that. Also there you talk about, I think you said easing raw material cost pressure or something to that effect. Could you also describe a little more in detail what is happening with the raw material costs here and what raw materials are you referring to? That was my first question. I can take the second question maybe as well, if that's all right. I mean, it's coming back to this issue of capital allocation.
Public prices have come down more than the private ones, and your listed portfolio has generally done better than the overall index. I mean, does that mean that you would be looking at making investments in new listed companies? You know, do you think this is an attractive price point to make that? That was my second question.
Okay. Thank you for those questions. It's actually quite tricky to answer because it differs between different geographical regions, different business lines, and so forth. The case is that some of the costs on raw material of course filter through quicker than price increases because you have contracts on the price side. That has affected Mölnlycke. We are now seeing in some cases that the price increases are starting to get through. The other comment I can give you is that of course, you know that Wound Care has very good profitability and also Gloves have good profitability. The ORS business, we need to improve profitability and the company needs to improve profitability.
Here they've also been more tactical, increasing prices to improve profitability, and that has been a cautious decision on that side to gradually filter through price increases and also prioritize what to sell. When it comes to the cost increases, what we can see is that freight costs are gradually coming down. So that is the one area where we see some improvement. But then, of course, if raw material prices, even if they stabilize and you gradually get through some price increases, of course, that will start to benefit you. Moving over to the listed companies. I think our priority remains. We have a number of really good company. We bought more in one in the third quarter.
The priority remains to continue to invest in selected a number of the companies we have in the listed companies rather than going for new ones, and then invest within Patricia Industries, and of course continue to invest in some prioritized funds within EQT. That is the basic strategy. Of course, I will never say never. If there would be a fantastic opportunity, we would of course look at it even if it's on the listed side.
Okay. Thank you very much.
Thank you.
The next question is from Derek Laliberté with ABG. Please go ahead.
Okay. Thank you very much, Operator, and good afternoon. I was wondering on Mölnlycke from your perspective there, what the key drivers are behind this strong global demand that you're experiencing within Wound Care specifically. Are there any sort of meaningful temporary effects to be aware about? What do you consider to be a sustainable growth over, say, the next five years?
It's a great question. I think on the positive side, of course, elective surgeries are coming back. That is one. If I look on the development, as I mentioned before over the last years, a second thing is that Mölnlycke has gained market share. Those we kind of see. The trickiest part, of course, is to see if there are inventory changes in some areas among the customers. That is always very difficult to keep track on. That could have an effect from quarter to quarter.
Okay, great. That sounds good. I was also wondering, given your commentary here about your strong position and looking at for opportunities in this environment, could you give an update on the investment pipeline? How that looks in general for the unlisted part?
Yeah. We have a strong pipeline. It's more. We are working on it. I think there are two things that we need to balance the large opportunity that really exist in that pipeline. Number one is we need to make sure we integrate the acquisitions we have done, and there is a continuous work on that, and I'm very pleased to see the development on that side among the, call it the 5- 6 large investments, add-on acquisitions we have made over the last 1 year-2 years.
In some cases of course we need to make sure that even though we are willing, as I said before, to pay a good price for a fantastic business, of course we need to make sure that the price reflects also what we believe we should pay in this environment. These are the two things we need to consider. We have a good pipeline, and we are working for it. Even though it shake out that we are not, we are clearly willing to move forward if we find great assets.
Okay, great. Thanks for that clarification. Finally from my side when it comes to Ericsson, you seem to have a lot of patience here. Obviously why aren't you or haven't you bought more shares in the company or are there any restrictions here that I'm not aware about? Because I think we're quite close to the levels where you bought meaningfully-
Yeah
in the stock before.
I will not comment Ericsson specifically. I can just comment that out of the reasons I normally mention with, we can be restricted or we can have too large ownership. In some we actually are 30% ownership. The latter one is not relevant for Ericsson since we have less than 30%. More than that, I will not comment.
Okay. Very understandable. That's all for me. Thank you.
The next question is from Dominik Pross with VP Bank. Please go ahead.
Hi. First of all, good afternoon also from my side, and thanks for taking my question. I only got one and a brief one actually. As you mentioned Accelleron at the beginning of the call, what are your plans going about or potential spinoffs also in the future, looking especially at ABB, who at least gonna spin off another division or at least plan to in the future? Do you plan to stay in them for the long term? Do you plan to, well, clean your portfolio of such smaller positions? How do you wanna go about it in the long run?
Okay, thank you for the question. When it comes to Accelleron, that was listed quite recently. We have a big stake in that 14% ownership, but of course, from a total amount in absolute amount is a small part of Investor AB. We have said that we believe, number one, we believe it's absolutely correct that ABB is doing this, focusing on automation and electrification. Working with the business portfolio is the right way for them. Secondly, we have said that when it comes to Accelleron specifically, that we will evaluate it over time and do what we believe create most value.
Okay, great. Thanks.
Thank you.
As a reminder, if you wish to register for a question, please press star and one on your telephone. The next question is from Kristin Dahlberg with Pareto Securities. Please go ahead, madam.
Hello, and thank you for taking my question. Considering financing costs having risen so much recently and the operating environment is characterized by turbulence. At the same time, we can see companies strengthening balance sheet and secure liquidity to be able to invest to some extent in addition to gaining more strength in the balance sheet. What is your view on timing here considering the uncertainty? Then I also have a question regarding Mölnlycke and a further strategic development of Mölnlycke. Is organic growth business development of the existing business or acquisitions to be preferred? And what business area do you think Mölnlycke should focus on?
Okay. I can start with Mölnlycke because that's. I'm not 100% I got your first question, but Helena will take it because she's much more clever than me. When it comes to Mölnlycke, I think the key focus for Mölnlycke, of course, is to continue the fantastic organic growth that we are seeing by working with innovation R&D, moving into new geographical regions. That is, of course, the key focus of the company. They will of course look at opportunities also within M&A. Preferably, of course, it will be related to some of the areas where they have a very strong position but also good profitability. I think that is roughly what I have to say on that. Helena?
Okay. Hi. Hi, Kristin. I got the question as related to when to start raising debt in this market. Is that correct?
Yeah. Maybe I can clarify a little bit. I'm just noticing financing costs going up. The operating environment is very difficult. At the same time, companies are strengthening balance sheet, securing liquidity, both to be prepared for what can happen if we see further weakness, but also to be prepared to invest. I mean, order books are strong. Corporations and households, not the least in the Nordic area, are in a fairly good place. I'm just thinking about investments from a timing point of view. What do you see ahead of you for the listed portfolio and for Patricia in terms of investments, and from a timing point of view?
I mean, on the debt question, as you saw from my slides, we have very little debt to be concerned about as we have the next maturity of SEK 1 billion in 2029. We actually raised quite a lot of debt in the Eurobond market the last few years at very attractive rates and really long-term debt as well, long tenured debt. Regarding the timing of investments.
I think we can say it like this, the timing of the investments will not mainly be governed by the timing related to the financing. We have, as Helena said, over a number of years, put us in a very strong position. We have the financial resources to make significant investments. It will more be related to where and when we find the opportunities.
Okay. Thank you.
Thank you.
Excuse me. This is the operator. There are no more questions registered at this time.
We have a few questions here on the web. The first is for you, Helena. It's about our gross cash position. Is it correct that it's SEK 23 billion? How is it invested? Should I see it as being invested on the bank account without any interest?
Sure.
It's not on a bank account because very few banks will hold so much cash for us, and we don't want the counterparty risk either. It's invested very securely. Historically, it was very hard to generate an interest on that. It is improving as the interest rate is going up. It's very liquid and very safe.
Thank you. Then we have the second question here, relating to Patricia. Do you see or expect any lag on the Patricia Industries performance or valuations due to their private nature when compared to public investments that are valued more often?
No, actually, I don't see any big difference when it comes to that. Because what we do when it comes to the adjusted market values, we actually use the market multiples and put them on the current earnings that they make. We try to make an estimate of a current market price. It's basically mark to market.
We have a third and final question relating to Mölnlycke. You have both been touching on Mölnlycke before. The first one relating to Mölnlycke then, could you please provide more color on the revenue and margin going forward? The second bit. Well, we'll take the first one first. More color on the revenue and margin going forward.
We never give a forecast actually, and I think it's good to keep that. One of the reason is that you actually never have a crystal ball. What I can say is that I think that Mölnlycke is in a very good position. It's a strong company run by a strong management team. We are full of confidence in both the management team and the company for the coming years. That's what I want to say. Hopefully we will continue to, or the company will continue to deliver good results.
The second part of this question is about leverage. The current leverage from Mölnlycke 3x, does it give you scope for higher dividends, or would you like to maintain leverage levels towards the lower end of the target range?
I think on that side, the general view that we have is that the more stable and the more stronger the operational performance is, of course, the more leverage can you have. Of course, given the strengths of Mölnlycke, one should not exclude that Mölnlycke will distribute capital if they become too strong in the balance sheet. It will be up to the board and to make that call.
The very last part of this question relating to Mölnlycke. Any opportunities or plans for M&A, and how should we think of ratings in a possible scenario and the target rating you have for Mölnlycke?
As I said, Zlatko has come in. He has done a great job in decentralizing the organization, putting a high focus on innovation, getting closer to the customer, and they are of course also now with the company in good shape, starting to look at potential add-on acquisitions. We always want that, and the management team and the board in Mölnlycke want that the company should have strong enough balance sheet to be able to take the opportunities. Of course, one advantage with Mölnlycke is that the cash flow generation is very strong, so that leaves plenty of opportunities, but we will try to balance this. I don't know if you want to add anything.
For the whole financial system of Investor, it creates another flexibility having an investment-grade rated subsidiary that can actually raise debt in the Eurobond market. For the time being, that's optimal for us.
Thank you. By that, we have, I think answered all the questions that have come in either by phone or over the web. We would like to thank you for joining us today, and we will be back with our annual accounts after year-end. Thank you.
Thank you very much.