Earnings Call: Q4 2020

Feb 9, 2021

Hello, everybody, and welcome to this call. My name is Ola Ringdahl, and I'm the President and CEO of the Lindau Group. I'm sitting here together with our acting CFO, Madeline Jernberg. We go to Slide 2. And we look at the key highlights for the Q4. We finished the year strongly. EBIT increased by 17% And operating margin increased from 8.4% to 10.7%, which is a record high for a 4th quarter within Lindab. The revenue continued to be impacted by the effects of the pandemic, but to a lesser extent than previous quarter. Business Area Ventilation Systems returned to organic growth in the 4th quarter, mainly due to positive development in Western Europe. And operating cash flow was strong, and we have a strong balance sheet. We move to Slide 3 and the full year results. So in summary, 2020 was the 1st year that Lindab reached the long term target of 10% operating margin. And achieving this margin target during a year marked by COVID-nineteen and the resulting sales decline It's a sign of strength that we are proud of. In 2020, we generated a strong operating cash flow, And this has enabled us to continue our strategic investment program, where we are upgrading many of our production facilities to increase both capacity and efficiency. During the year, we have made 4 acquisitions of high quality ventilation companies and one investment in a technology company. We have also divested the I and P Kleiman Group as they did not live up to our profitability requirements. We move to Slide 4 and look at the geographical development. In Q4, sales was in line with previous year in the Nordics and in Western Europe, if we adjust for currency effects. We are pleased with this performance given the market conditions. In Eastern Europe, the Sales has continued to show lower numbers, primarily due to less activity in project sales, and that region is still a bit more affected then the rest of Europe. We move to the full year numbers on the next slide. And we can see here that our largest region, the Nordics, has shown a good sales development throughout the whole period and the whole year despite COVID-nineteen. Our 2 largest markets, Sweden and Denmark, continue to report good organic growth driven by the profile business. Western Europe had severe challenges in the spring due to COVID-nineteen lockdowns, but has recovered since August. And Eastern Europe has been affected strongly by COVID-nineteen from the Q2 and has not yet recovered its full momentum. Now I hand over to Madeline, who will take you through the financials, starting on Slide So Thank you, Ola. So first, the financial highlights of the group. Net sales in the 4th quarter amounted SEK 2,340,000,000. Organic growth decreased by 4%. Currency had a negative impact on growth by 5%, While structured changes contributed positively by 1%. Overall, sales have been continuously impacted By the uncertainty related to COVID-nineteen, but it should also be noted that both profile systems and building systems Had a strong Q4 previous year, a quarter which included deliveries to a couple of large projects. Despite the general loan sales, all three segments managed to improve their EBIT margin during the quarter, a sign of strength in these times. For the group, this resulted in an increased EBIT amounting to SEK 248,000,000 And that the EBIT margin increased to 10.7%, which is the highest EBIT margin for 4th quarter since 2008. The improvement is driven by continuously strengthened gross margin and good cost control, but also contribution from our acquisitions and divestments. Currency effects had a negative impact on both sales and EBIT, and the Swedish kroner has generally strengthened in the period. Only a smaller part of the cost reduction is related to received governmental grants. Lindabas Group received Grant of SEK 5,000,000 during the quarter. And to add, Sweden have had no employees on short time leave during the Q4 or the full year of 2020. Net profit for the quarter amounted to SEK 186,000,000 compared to SEK 143,000,000 during the same period Previous year. Now we will take a look at our different segments, and we start by Ventilation Systems at the next slide. Net sales for ventilation systems amounted to SEK 1,442,000,000, a decrease of 2% compared to the 4th quarter of previous year. However, organically, sales increased by 1%, which is strong given the circumstances and the fact that several markets were continuously impacted By the uncertainty related to COVID-nineteen. In relation to the second and third quarter of the year, there has been a continued sales recovery, Especially for the Western Europe, with reported organic growth at the whole during the Q4 of the year, with good growth in markets like France, Ireland, It's in Norway. In terms of the ECIS, some markets reported indicative recovery, The region of the total had a negative sales trends versus the corresponding period last year. The Swedish market continued to report solid sales development. In terms of sales, it should be mentioned that structural changes contributed positively by 1% during the quarter, And this reflects the acquisition of Zordak, Krenas, Ecovent, Alfarb and the divestment of IMP Klima Group. Despite all uncertainties related to COVID-nineteen, ventilation system managed to deliver an improved EBIT amounting SEK 152,000,000 and strengthened the adjusted EBIT margin corresponding to 10.5% versus 8.7% previous year. The improvement in both adjusted EBIT and EBIT margin was mainly due to reduced cost, strengthened gross margin, But also thanks to the completed acquisitions and divestments. Only a small part of the reduced costs were related to received Governmental grants amounted to SEK 2,000,000 during the quarter. Moving on to the next slide and Profile Systems. Profile Systems net sales decreased by 9% and equaled SEK 640,000,000. Organically, sales decreased by 7% and currency had a negative impact from growth by 2%. The lower sales in Mainly explained by the business in Sweden, where significant deliveries were made to large logistics terminal in the corresponding period last year. Also, Romania had significant project deliveries during the Q4 of 2019. In general, the sales development of Profile system can fluctuate between quarters as deliveries of major industrial projects can have a significant impact on the segment's turnover, And the weather condition also influenced the sales volume of the segment. Despite lower sales, EBIT was, from a monetary point of view, in line with the Corresponding period last year. And the EBIT margin improved to 13.1%, mainly due to strength in gross margin. Recognized governmental grants for Praful Systems amounted to SEK 1,000,000 during the quarter. We move on to the financial highlights of Building Systems on the next slide. For Building Systems, net sales amounted to SEK 232,000,000, a decrease by 23% organically. The decreased sales during the quarter was mainly explained by the general slowdown in the market related to COVID-nineteen, And many scheduled construction progress has been postponed. In terms of sale, she's also been mentioning But the comparison period included particularly larger project deliveries, primarily to Luxembourg, Poland and Russia. During previous quarters of the year, different cost saving measures have been implemented with aim to adapt the business to lower Expected sales volume in the light of the ongoing pandemic. These measures have, together with activities to strengthen the segment's Gross margin, a positive effect on the adjusted EBIT during the Q4. And despite the lower taste, billing system managed to increase the adjusted EBIT Margin to 9.9%, which definitely is a result of improved gross margin but also good cost control achieved within the business. Selling systems have been impacted by a significant negative currency effect on both sales and EBIT due to the weaker Russian ruble. It could also be mentioned that they received governmental grants of SEK 3,000,000 during the quarter. The net order intake for Building Systems decreased in the period, and the total order backlog at the end of the Q4 was lower than a year ago. Now we move on to the next slide and the cash flow for the group. Lindab reported a continued Strong cash flow from the operating activities, our cash flow in line with the corresponding quarter previous year. The free cash flow adjusted for M and A activities amounted to SEK 241,000,000. This was a lower outcome than last year, but an outcome reflected the good momentum Lindab has in the ongoing strategic investment program To increase capacity and efficiency for the future, but also with aim to create an even safer workplace for our employees. In terms of M and A and activities, the cash flow was impacted by 2 acquisitions in the period, EcoVent in Sweden and Asavo in Norway. Lindab also invested in an associated technology linked company in Denmark. From a cash flow point of view, It should also be noted that the final part of the consideration related to the previous divestment of I. M. For Climate Group of SEDUSA. The strong cash flow from operating activities throughout the whole year has supported the continued high investment pace in Lindab, Made acquisitions, but also enabled Lindav to decrease net debt by SEK 131,000,000. At year end, the net debt of Lindav amounted to SEK 1,640,000,000 and the net debt to EBITDA ratio for the group Equal to SEK 1,400,000,000 compared to SEK 1,600,000,000 by end of December last year. I think that concludes the financial highlights for the 4th quarter. And with that, I'm giving the word back to you, Wels. Thank you very much, Marlen. We go to Slide number 13 And have a quick look at some of the investment program details. So Lindab is currently implementing a strategic investment program. It started in late 2018. And of increased profitability has given us the financial muscles to implement this rather large program, which is very well needed in our company. We are aiming to invest in increased automation, Production capacity and optimized logistics, while all the time taking the work environment and creating a safe work environment into account. In 2020, we invested SEK 425,000,000 in dozens of important projects. We are expanding our production facilities for ventilation in strategic locations throughout Europe. We install highly automated production lines in our manufacturing sites, both regionally and in Lindab's central Tring Seitz, both regionally and in Lindab's central ventilation factories in Sweden and in the Czech Republic. The payback period for these projects is short, and the first investments have already had a positive impact on our business and our profitability. The current investment plan extends 3 years into the future. And then we move over to Slide 14 and talk a bit about The acquisitions and structural changes. Acquisitions are an important part of Lindav's strategy, and we want to acquire well managed and profitable companies in our main markets in Europe. The acquisitions can contribute with products that fit well into our range We'll cover a geographic market where we want to become stronger. In the Q4, we closed 2 acquisitions, as Madeline mentioned, And we also made 1 technology investment. And on Slide 15, we quickly list The acquisitions made, namely EcoWind and Eir Faber and the 37% stake in LEAP Crafts. We have a very good M and A team that is devoting their time 2 acquisitions. And we have and we are developing a very interesting pipeline for the future. Enough about that, we now move to Slide 17. As you are aware, we have some long term financial targets. And in 2020, We reached 2 out of the 3 long term financial targets. The growth target was not possible to achieve this year due to the pandemic, But the operating margin there, we actually reached the 10% level, and we have proven that we can reach this level also in very challenging market conditions. The net debt to EBITDA ratio is well below 3 times. So we are now at 1.4%, as Madeline mentioned. And we are quite pleased that we have been able to reduce the debt slightly despite running the large investment program, making acquisitions, and we also paid dividend last year. Talking about dividend, we have a dividend policy and a dividend target. So let's move to the next slide, number 18, and look at the proposal from the Board of Directors. The dividend during 2020 was maintained at previous year's level, SEK 1.75 per share, despite the challenges posed by COVID-nineteen. For 2021, the Board has proposed a total dividend of SEK 3.4 per share. And this is in accordance with Lindau's goal of distributing at least 40% of the net profits to shareholders. For us, it is important to safeguard the interest of our shareholders also in challenging times. The dividend is proposed to be split into 2 equal payments, 1 in May and 1 in November. Now let me say a few words about the expected market development on Slide 19. As we as you are all aware, it is, of course, very difficult to make predictions about the market development when we are still in the COVID-nineteen pandemic. If we look at official statistics from Euro construct, We can see that it is estimated that the European construction market declined by approximately 9% in 2020. For 2021, EuroConstraints they predict that the market will recover and grow by 4%. However, that doesn't make up for the significant drop in 2020. So it would take some time before we are back at previous construction activity levels. On top of these challenging market conditions, we also see that the price of raw materials is going up. And particularly important for Lindab is the steel prices. We have seen in the past few months that the Prices are increasing quite significantly, and we expect further price increases on steel in the coming months. So we continue to watch this very closely during the 1st and second quarter, and we are very determined to compensate for these higher raw material costs when putting the right price on our products. Now let's go to the next slide and make a quick summary. If we summarize 2020, we can see that Lindab has taken important steps forward and is well equipped for the future. In the short term, the market outlook is impacted by the pandemic and its consequences, and the increase in cost of raw materials is adding to this challenge. In the long term, Lindab benefits from strong underlying macro trends such as energy efficiency, green buildings and the desire to create a good indoor climate for people. We are satisfied with the Q4, and we are happy that we have achieved the results we did in 2020. With that, this is the end of the presentation, and we open up for questions. Thank Ladies and gentlemen, if you do wish to ask a question, please press 1 on your telephone keypad now. So that is We have a question from the line of Douglas Lindal from Kepler Cheuvreux. Please go ahead. Hello. Can you hear me? Yes. Yes. Hi, Ola. Hi, Madeline. Congratulations to a strong report. A few questions from my side with some focus on Margins, obviously, well, we would appreciate some more help. But first on the demand situation, I appreciate the comments during your presentation here. But Is it possible to give any sort of further insight into the current demand levels you are seeing now in the beginning of 2021 or rather maybe the last month of Q4. Any sort of comments on that would be highly appreciated. I'll start with that one. Well, I think for the markets, like we mentioned, in Western Europe and in The Nordics, the 4th quarter saw a decent demand, including December. We actually had quite a good December, both sales wise and in terms of results. It is, of course, more difficult to say what's going to happen now. We have Some positive aspects, the vaccine rollout, it's building confidence out there in the market, and we see An increasing amount of inquiries, we make more and more offers on projects. So the Activity level out there is increasing, but it will take a bit of time before we see the real results from that. But it's an encouraging sign that there is more activity among our customers, and we get more inquiries. In fact, just let me add that adding to that are, of course, several Factors that make it complicated to make this kind of forecast. We have some in some countries, we have a weather effect, A winter with a lot of snow is not the best thing for some of our activities, especially in the profile business. And we have the more volatile situation when it comes to the project business, which mainly affects our Building Systems business area. So difficult to answer your question, Douglas, but We remain conservative on the cost side to be prepared for several scenarios. Okay. I understand it's a difficult question too. Appreciate your answer, Ola. So coming back on steel prices, you already Commented there that you've seen an increase. But going forward, how do you expect this to impact margins? I would assume that you can't really Fully compensate for these price hikes? Or how do you view the current steel prices in a margin context for, let's say, first half of twenty twenty one? Thank you. It's always a fine balance. We need to be there for our customers, and we need to protect our margins. So we are, of course, trying to forward the increased costs to The next one in the value chain, but they also have their obligation. So we have to have a constructive dialogue with Our partners out there, so we are not destroying anything. But of course, steel is an important Material for Lindab, we use quite a lot of it. So it is at the top of our agenda to try to have good forecasting and good intelligence when it comes to the projected price trajectory for steel prices and the availability of steel. The availability of steel is a bit Challenging at the moment for some players in the market because of this price hike. There I think that Lindab is in a good position. We have a very professional team working to secure our deliveries of steel. So in terms of being a very reliable supplier, I think there are very few companies out there who can be as reliable as Lindab in these challenging times. So you don't dare to say if margins will be negatively net net negatively affected really over the next 6 months. Our aim is to protect the margins. We want to improve profitability, not make it deteriorate. Then the rest of it is probably a timing issue. Of course, when prices go up very suddenly, Is there enough time to give notice and increase the prices in time? But seen over A few months, it should be okay. And I don't dare to see if we will have that kind of time lag or not, but we are doing our best to adjust pricing in time so that we will protect the margins. Yeah. No, I understand. Thank you. On the gross margin in the quarter specifically, which was up, Has there been an underlying mix in terms of products and is that sort of temporary? Or do you expect that to Continue. The mix effects are not well, I mean, you can read in the report and analyze the mix effect between the different business areas. Within the business area, there are not any really substantial mix effects that I would say playing a major portion of the margin improvements. It is a broad improvement of performance rather than Any kind of specific mix between products or geographies? Okay. Well, that's very clear. And Just on CapEx, you already touched upon that. But do you want to be more transparent in terms of what CapEx levels you're looking for in 2021? I mean, as you So in the graph and if you look at the history of Lindab, I mean, we are today at I think in 2020, we were about 3x the normal level of CapEx. Now if we exclude acquisitions, if I just talk about investments in equipment. And we I mean, we are not planning to stay on that level forever. We are not. And we are Probably around the peak right now. I think the investment level will still be high in 2021 2022, But I don't expect it to be higher than it was in 2020. As long as we have extremely attractive investment opportunities, I dare to pursue them at great speed. But over time, The payback calculations will look less fantastic, and then it is, of course, time to slow down a bit. But I would say high CapEx for the next 2 to 3 years, but we have probably seen the highest level now in 2020. Okay. Thank you so much. And I guess maybe a final one for me, then I'll let someone else else in. On M and A, I guess, now you've done a few, But I would assume that 2020 was a difficult year to go through with any real deals given And then lack of traveling. Do you expect M and A to pick up as we enter 2021, assuming COVID So that gives you the opportunity to travel or not sure? Well, I, of course, hope that we will be able to travel. We have very capable local managing directors in the countries where we are active. So we can do a lot even during these times. But for the slightly more complicated or larger potential deals, It is necessary to travel from Sweden to those destinations, and that is difficult today. There are many opportunities in the acquisitions area because the ventilation industry is still rather fragmented. There are also some interesting possibilities within profile systems I would like to add because they They've really shown now in the past 2 years that they can deliver significantly higher margins than they did a few years ago. So it can be an area also worth investing in. But we aim to have a Continuous flow of acquisitions, they don't need to be large, but they should be within our scope of finding High quality companies with a good management and in a good niche that fits very well with Lindab's existing business. And I'm hoping that we will see more coming out of that even if we are slightly slowed down by the pandemics and those restrictions. Okay. Thank you very much, Ola. That's it for me. I'll get back into the queue. Thank you, Dorcas. Our next question comes from the line of Karl Rangnestam from Nordea. Please go ahead. Hi, it's Karl from Nordea. I called in a bit late, so you might already have answered this. But could you please give more color On the margin drivers for Ventilation Systems, I mean, how much is would you say is temporary cost savings? And how much is Driven by the divestiture of IMP Kleem and how much is sort of driven by the overall efficiency program that you're running? To start with, there is a positive effect from divesting EIM Pima and replacing it with some newly acquired companies. So we're talking about A few decimal points explained by that. More things, more onetime nature. Sure. Now we are not an organization with a lot of Expensive travel habits in normal times. So I wouldn't say that, that is behind And any savings on traveling is not behind the margin improvement or the cost improvement. On the contrary, we have continued to keep our spending level on R and D and on important development projects. And the acquisitions have also added some transaction costs associated with those. So I would say that the savings and the efficiency improvements achieved, they are sustainable, And they will not end once the pandemic ends. It is more we have taken more of a structured grip. As an example, we have gone from and it's probably covered somewhere in the footnote somewhere in our press release, But we used to say that we are active in 32 countries. In this report, in this press release, we said that we are active in 24 countries. So we have focused our efforts on the countries and markets where we think that we can have a strong position where we can make money. And we have actually exited quite a number of markets where we have not really performed in the past. So I think that's well behind the improvement than anything else. Okay. Perfect. And also in terms of your financial target of 10% EBIT margin, I mean, given what you say with Running the efficiency program until, I think, 2023, which should offer as you hope, I guess, yield some result, Continuing margin accretive M and A, I mean, is it fair to assume that your EBIT margin target of 10% is somewhat prudent? Or how should we look at that? When I joined Lindav in 2018, and we have for a number of years delivered around 6% EBIT. I didn't think that the EBIT target of 10% was very prudent. I still don't. We have just now reached it one time. And we say that this target should be valid over a as an average over a business cycle. So we are not done there yet. But we have shown that we can perform on a level of higher profitability, which I find very pleasing, not least because it gives us an underlying cash flow that can really help to upgrade and modernize the company and fulfill its potential. So the EBIT Target and those are the long term targets, they are set by the door. It's not for me to set those. And perhaps once we have established ourselves as a consistent consistently delivering on that kind of level, Then it is time to aim even higher. But as I said, that's for the board to decide. Yes. And also a long term question here. I mean, if you compare ventilation Then with the profile system, we can obviously see that. If you look at least year to date, we can see that profile system is significantly more profitable at Just about 12% versus 8.5% at Ventilation Systems. In the coming 2, 3, 4, 5 years, I don't know, How would you say that Ventilation Systems has the potential to be more profitable more in terms of margins than Profile Systems? And And you have much more to do in terms of margins in Profile Systems? I guess it's a lower yes, it's a more simple business or less? Yes. How do you view that? I understand what you mean, Karl, but and you could assume that. I have found that all businesses are rather complex once you get into the details. And Profile Systems is dependent on very, very advanced and qualified technologies as well. So They might those products might look low tech, but if you combine everything and how they are produced and how they are distributed And what kind of quality we're talking about, it is actually rather complex and high-tech. That said, One reason why the EBIT margin for profile system has increased so much and so rapidly is that we have prioritized profitability instead of maximizing volume growth. Now that's always a balance. We are getting into shape in our operations So within purpose systems more and more. And I think that the next step there is to also aim for a little a bit more aggressive volume growth. Not jeopardizing the margins, but to fine tune that balance as we grow our as we improve our operational efficiency even further. So I think they are performing on a good profitability level now, and We should not aim to grow that area a bit more. For ventilation systems, I think the Profitability potential is no less than that of profile systems. The technology is advanced. Our production methodology is super high-tech. So there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to make the same kind of profitability levels as we see in Profile Systems. Okay, perfect. Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Kemet Thal from Carnegie. Please go ahead. Yeah. Thank you. A lot of questions have been asked. But turning to the smallest business area, the Building Systems. First, you said that orders were down year over year, and you also said that The order book was lower now, but previously, you have commented on how many Large orders you have received in a quarter or so on, but now there is very little information. So can you give us A feeling of how much orders are down and what to expect for the next 6 months or so. I mean, could you or what the order book down like 20% or 40% or 5% or Thank you, Kenneth, for those questions. I'll try to remember The different ones, if we start with this question about how many large orders above 1 €1,000,000 We received 2 of those orders in the 4th quarter. They were both in Russia. And in some quarters in the past, I remember some quarterly reports when we've had up to 10 of those large orders in the quarter. And the situation looks a bit different now. In the Pandemic situation, we have seen that trend that the really large projects, they are fewer and farther between. And it's more the, say, bread and butter business that is continuing to develop in a decent way. So we have actually quite good stability in the smaller and medium sized building that building systems are selling. But the large ones, So that segment is really down, which is reflected in the number of such big projects that they've taken. I'm glad to say that in the past 4 months, we have seen A steadily increasing order trend, so the order value has gone up every month now for the last 4 months. But the order level has been low, starting in March when the pandemic hit and up until the autumn. The orders on hand, it's still a lower number than it was 1 year ago, But the gap since 4 months is starting to shrink. So I think we still have A few more difficult months volume wise for billing systems, but there's definitely light in the tunnel with the increasing Order book or order trend and the increasing number of inquiries we see. Okay. Sounds great. Also the I was surprised by the profitability in that division, And especially since the sales were down quite a lot, were there and you talk about cost savings I'm trimming the organization to lower volumes and so on. But were there any extraordinary things you did in the 4th quarter? Or Could we expect this kind of profitability level to be sustainable also going forward? I understand the question. It's a natural one, because I do agree they delivered a really strong operating margin. The short answer is no. There are no extraordinary Explanations for that. The government grants for short term labor was SEK 3,000,000. It's not explaining the large improvement in profitability. On the contrary, we had Quite a significant negative currency effect on the results. So if anything, the result was actually probably better than it looks in the report. But one explanation is perhaps that now we after some years of really Good management and much better control, we see very few negative surprises. In some years, in some companies, you see negative surprises in November December every year. And we I'm glad to say that, that is no longer the case for Building Systems. We are running a tight ship. We have a very good management team. And they have really adapted to a lower sales level, and they can still make Decent profitability, and we are avoiding the big scary surprises. That said, we are now at this invoicing level, probably at the limit of where we can show these kind of numbers. If we will go down another 30%, 40%, That will be troublesome. But we have shown that we can actually make a healthy profit even with on these sales levels, which I'm very pleased about. So I remember when you To cut the position of CEO, there had been thoughts about divesting this business. And at the time, you said then that The bids you got at that time were too low and didn't reflect the value of the business and the improvement potential that you saw at that time. Now you talk about that improvement potential having materialized, But also that, yes, how should I say, you have as of late also got Margin is up at lower sales volumes and so on. So when you get bids For the business now, do you feel that there is a further improvement potential that you want to show before considering maybe divesting this business. It's a relevant question definitely. I think like this. Yes, we have proven that we have We can be profitable at lower sales levels than before. And I think It would be an attractive investment case if somebody would look at billing systems. And perhaps what is lacking from the seller's point of view to make the timing ideal It's the higher volume because if we return to a higher volume with these operational improvements achieved, We will get a very nice leverage in terms of increasing results. So We are not in a hurry. We want to do what is best for the shareholders. And We are very pleased with the performance of the team that in this most extreme of difficult times that they are delivering what they do in 2020 and particularly strong in the Q4. And when volumes start to return, I think that billing systems will show that they have fundamentally improved that company. That's great. Thanks a lot. Thank We have a question from the line of Marcela Klein from Handelsbanken. Please go ahead. Thank you. Hi, Ola and hi Madeline. And I have a question. These EU directives for innovation and new construction and And the various national support packages that you mentioned in your report. Are you seeing these projects Already in any particular markets? Or is it just generally that we are talking about this market, The early focus on the subsidies. Hello, Marcela. Yes, there have been many Programs announced on EU level and on national levels, I think those kind of government programs and EU programs, they take time to materialize. So I wouldn't say that we have seen the effects So those yet, but they are sending the signals to property owners, Technistic consultants, architects, that this is going to happen and you better get ready for it. So I think it's sending all the right signals for us, but we do have to have some patience before we You see it materializing into increasing sales. We see it as a long term driver of growth, but not a short term impact in the next quarter. But Do you expect some impact during 2021, if I understand you correctly? I think it will start in 2021 to have impact, yes, and it will gradually grow. But there are so many millions of buildings in Europe that need to be upgraded But this is a source of potential growth to that, that will be with us for many, many years to come. And in the Scandinavian countries, it is still very it is already very high on the agenda, but it will now be more and more important in many more European countries. So For Lindab and for companies like Lindab, this is great news and a great initiative, and It will also help to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and save energy costs. So I think it's great. And then you mentioned in the previous answers that in the past 4 months, the order situation has improved Even though we are still below last year. How does that relate to the comment last quarter when you were talking about the delays In Q3 or is it different projects, these delays that you were talking about in Q3, are they gone now? I was making that comment about growing order trend that was particularly for building systems where we have more, let's say, long order pipeline. And If projects are still delayed and taking longer time out there, yes, they are. I still experience that Decision making is slower still, and Projects are being delayed, yes. And I think that will continue for some more months before People really feel that we are that we can put the pandemic behind us. So I expect This will have a dampening effect on the economy for another few months. Yes. Thank you so much. That's all for me. Thank you, Marcela. There are no further questions at this time. Please go ahead, speakers. Thank you very much for listening in today, and we appreciate all your questions. From Marlene and myself, we would like to say thank you. Thank you very much.