Investor Update

Aug 26, 2020

Slides

Morning, and welcome to this press conference. My name is Bjorn Dinfeld. I'm Vice President of Communications for SCA. And we have today announced that SCA intends to invest in pulp production and initiates consultation to discontinue publication paper. And our President and CEO, Ulf Larsson CFO, Toby Dorton and President, Pulp, Cristina Enander, will present the reasoning behind this. And Ulf, please? Thank you for that, Bjorn, and good morning also from my side. And most welcome to our press conference that is webcasted. So as Bjorn mentioned earlier here, we are holding this press conference as we earlier today announced that we, 1, intend to invest SEK 1,450,000,000 in our industrial site at Ludwigen in order to be able to produce 300,000 tons of CTMP pulp with an expected start up during the 1st part of 2023. Secondly, we have also announced that we intend to enter into negotiations with the union representatives on closing all three remaining publication paper machines at Utviken. Our clear strategy for profitable growth contains 2 components. On one hand, we want to invest and work actively to increase the growth in our existing forest land. This we do by applying intensive forest management, use of fast growing tree species, such as contorta pine and stone. On the other hand, our ambition is also to increase our forest holdings and this we do by, among other things, our acquisition program in the Baltics with a target to own at least 100,000 hectares of forest land within this area in 5 years. The second component in our growth strategy is our vision to increase the value of each tree, and this we see through strategic investments in pulp, kraftliner, renewable energy and at the same time as we gradually reduce and now finally take away our exposure to publication paper. This staircase I have shown you many times, which describes our decided and planned strategic investments and projects, respectively. And we have now, by coming to the decision to invest in increased pulp capacity and also, at the same time, phase out from the printing paper business, taken an important step toward a long term improved product and industrial structure and the improved profitability that brings. The reason for making this decision to leave printing paper as a product area are as follows. 1st, we have, for a long period of time, recognized that printing paper constitutes a structurally declining market. During a number of years, we have seen consumption decrease by approximately 5% annually. And now in connection to the outbreak of the coronavirus pandemic, we've seen a sharper decline in demand, and the momentary demand drop is rather 30% to 40% for printing paper. And I personally believe that post corona, we will see new normal established in this area on a substantially lower level. Secondly, SES profitability within the Print and Paper segment has been weak for a long period. And with the lower production levels that we have been forced upon us in combination with reduced prices during the second half of twenty twenty, we can state that we now have a negative cash flow within this business area. Thirdly, it's very attractive for us to invest in increased pulp capacity as the market has a good long term growth, and that is what we are aiming for. It's also a strategic growth area for SCA. And to close the CMP production at Ostrand means that we later on can expand the capacity of chemical pulp at Ostrand further. To convert 1 of the printing machines at 2.3 into production of CTP pulp gives us an additional capacity of 200 tons of at an exceptionally low investment cost per ton. And at the same time, we will achieve the absolute leading position in terms of cost. So this is a really profitable project to do for us. During the last 10 years, SICE has decreased its annual publication paper capacity with just over 1,000,000 tonnes. And Utrechten is our today last remaining site for production of printed paper. Now we will enter into negotiations with the union representatives on the closure of all three paper machines at Utveken to be affected within 6 months. Just for your information, today's production capacity at Torviken is 775,000 tonnes, of which 500,000 tonnes of LWC 275,000 tonnes of uncoated printing paper. And by this, I now hand over to Kristina Einander, who is President of Business Area Pulpit S. A. Kristina will give you all a more detailed description of the coming CTMP investment. Thank you. CTMP market pulp is primarily used for improving the quality in different products to a lower production cost for the customer. In general, CTMP provides a high level of absorption capacity, bulk and stiffness to paper products, making it well suited for product segments such as tissue and packaging, but also in specialty and printing paper. As you can see here in the slide, the quality demands differ a lot between product segments. That means that different types of C2P qualities are produced to fit each customer segment. In SCA, we have a long history of working very closely with our customers to bring quality improvement. And today, we also have a broad product portfolio, which is a prerequisite for a profitable CTMP business. In addition, we have developed Birch CTMP, which is unique for SCA. This product has particularly interesting properties for board customers, which is a growing CTMP market. By using birch in the pulp production, we not only create a unique product for the customers, we also make use of the increased perch growth in our forest in a valuable way. CTP is produced today at the Ostand pulp mill with a production capacity of almost 100,000 tonnes a year. To compare with the NBSK production capacity of 900 tonnes a year. With this investment, the production will be moved to Utviken Mill and the production capacity will be increased to 300 tons a year. The C10P market is 4,500,000 tons and growing. The strength in our market plan is that it's both focused on the structurally growing end use segments of packaging and hygiene. And at the same time, we expect a significant part of the growth to come from existing customers of SCA, customers that buy CTP and MBSK today. Expanding our CTP business will thus create an increased customer value by offering our customers valuable product for properties at lower costs. We will continue to sell the majority of the CT and P to European customers, but we also have the intention to sell pulp to the growing Board segments in Asia and the U. S. The investment amounts to SEK 1,450,000,000. That corresponds to an investment of less than SEK 5,000 per tonne, which is very competitive. The reason to the low figure is the fact that the existing equipment for TMP production in Utvechin is very well suited for CTMP production. This equipment was installed in 2,009 and is thus one of the most modern and energy efficient GMP equipments in the world. The bleaching line is state of the art, which means that the bleaching cost for the pulp will be very low. And all in all, the cost per tonne will be decreased by approximately 15% versus today's level. That will position us in the top quartile regarding cost position. Christina, now I would give a summary of the expected financial effects from these two different steps. And firstly, here, you can see the financial effects from the exit of publication paper. You can see on the top left, we expect this to have an impact on net sales of the group of some SEK 4,000,000,000, which is the net sales we have in publication paper annually today. Also on the left, this decision affects some 800 people with regards to the exit from publication paper. And on the right hand side here, you can see the one off closure costs, which have a cash flow effect of up to SEK 0.9 billion, and we expect this decision also to require a write down of around SEK 1,100,000,000. And the write down is broken down into fixed assets of around SEK 750,000,000 and working capital around SEK 350,000,000. And we expect to take reserve for these items in the 3rd quarter results. And in addition, there's no figure on this slide for EBIT or EBITDA, but that's because we do not expect this decision to have a material impact on operating profit or EBITDA when you compare it to the recent history on a group level. Going forward, however, if we did not take this decision, we would expect that we would have had a negative impact on profit and cash flow going forward. Okay. And then the next slide here shows the financial impacts from the CTMP investment. And as Cristina said, here we have an investment cost of SEK 1.45 billion for this investment, which will be reported as strategic CapEx. The CTMP capacity we have today, 100,000 tonnes, as Cristina said, and we will increase to 300,000 tonnes of CTMP capacity. And that will be the move then from the 100,000 tonnes today in Ostrand, which will be stopped and then the 300,000 tonnes capacity will be in the Orpican mill. And the EBITDA effect, you can see here, we expect a €300,000,000 positive EBITDA effect from this investment. And that's as a result both of the volume growth in the pulp but also of the absolute leading cost position, which we will achieve from this investment in this product. Then you can see on the right hand side here, we expect the start up to be at the start of 2023 when the CTMP production will also stop in the Ostrand line. And we also do expect some costs for maintaining the Oortviken site during 2021 2022 up until the start up of around SEK 20,000,000 per quarter, the Odfreakon site maintaining the Odfreakon site. And then finally, this creates an opportunity then for further expansion on NBSK in Ostrand once the CTMP line is stopped in Ostrand. So yes, with that, I can hand back to Ulf. Thank you, Torbjorn. And then if we summarize what's happening now, you can state that the investment in increased pulp in parallel with the winding up of the remaining printing paper capacity is a natural step in SEA's strategy and also a natural step in the evolution of SEA's product portfolio. The ambition from our side is to create long term and profitable growth, and we do so by position ourselves within clear growth area, and this is a clear step in that direction. If we start to the left hand side, within our business segment, forest, we will step by step increase the harvesting in our own forest then by 25% during the coming 5 years. We have already communicated that. And this is a result of a long term and determined work to improve the status when it comes to growth potential and also fiber quality. And the cash flow from our own forest stand will be this increased step by step by SEK 300,000,000 to SEK 400,000,000 per year when we are finally utilizing the full harvesting potential 2025. Within business segment wood, we have during the last 10 years, halved the number of sawmills, and at the same time, we have increased the production volume. And during this period, the productivity has also more than doubled. With today's decision, we will leave product area printing paper entirely while we increase the production of CTMP pulp. And in addition, as Toby mentioned, we are preparing some for continued expansion within the chemical pulp area. Last but not least, the ongoing investment at Obbola will result in a substantially increased capacity of kraftliner. And we look forward to the start up of the new mill in the beginning of 20 23. So taken together, these steps all reposition SAE with clear profitable growth in attractive market segments. So in addition, the board have also said that they do not intend to give a dividend proposal this year given all the current circumstances. Instead, the board intends to give their dividend proposal in the normal way together with the publication and the report for Q4 2020. So by that, I think that we can open up for questions. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin the question and answer session. Your first question comes from the line of Alexander Berglund from Bank of America. You may ask your question. Thank you very much. Two questions from my side. First of all, on the expected EUR 300,000,000 EBITDA positive impact. My question is if that assumes the current spot pulp prices or if you have any specific long term pricing level in mind? And the second question is more strategic here on the reason to make a decision to go for CTMP pulp rather than your other growth area, kraftliner. Is it just more of a technical reason? Or is it also of your view on the current supply and demand outlook in containerboard? Thank you. Yes. Maybe you, Toby, can start with $300,000,000 The first one. Basically, the $300,000,000 positive EBITDA impact is what we expect from what we regard as normal trend prices for CTMP pulp, which is how we always look at investment. So that's how we view the EBITDA impact. Yes. And the second question, why do we invest in CTP instead of Kraftliner? It's not a choice really in Utviken. I mean Utviken is today a publication paper mill and by that you also use mechanical pulp, which is not possible to use for kraftliner productions. I mean, we do both, honestly. We have not recently, but we have started up a big project in Obbola where we invest SEK 8,000,000,000 in order to increase capacity to kraft liner. We really believe in kraft liner and the packaging business, definitely so. SMB is a different animal. We can utilize the equipment and the infrastructure that we have in Utrechtgen in a good way. And as Cristina mentioned, I mean, we will have an investment cost around SEK 5,000 per tonne, which is really low cost, and we will reduce the indirect cost by 15%. So that will give us a world class position when it comes to production of CTMP. CTMP will be used for some packaging applications, but also for hygiene applications and to some extent also to the printing paper area. But that is obviously not our focus. So we go for packaging, hygiene, and we also will try to increase the cooperation we have with our current customer base in CTMP. Thank you very much. Just Toby, a follow-up. When you say kind of a long term trend price, what does that mean in dollars per tonne? We don't give that information today. I mean as of today, I think we're informing on this decision. We may be able to come back in Q3 with some a bit more clarity. But I think we always look at trend prices over a long period of time when we take investment. So I would have that information for you today. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Your next question comes from the line of Christian Kopner from Nordea. Your line is open. Yes. Thanks, operator. Just one follow-up then. You mentioned that you will be able to potentially increase the BSK production in Strand when you move the CTMP to moving that to Krikken. When do you expect to take that decision? And what kind of CapEx would you look at to increase BSK in Ostrand? It's too early to say. I mean, we have done some feasibility studies at Ostrand. And I mean, obviously, we have invested also SEK 8,000,000,000 in Ostrand, and we have the biggest mill in the world producing MBSK pulp. So it is a positive project to go further there. But I mean now we are focused on negotiations with the union about taking away capacity in publication paper. And we've also taken the decision now to go for CPMP production in Utviken. And by that, we can start up a new project in Utviken anytime. But I mean, we one thing is preparation, another thing is money. So we need to find the right timing for that decision. So we will come back on that. Okay. Thank you. Your next question comes from the line of Johannes Guentherulhos from Kepler Cheuvreux. It's Johannes here. Just want to follow-up also on the investment calculation. But can you if I start with what sort of dollar zinc assumptions are you using and also energy cost assumption? Am I right that you're using the spot rate on the FX? First question. I'm not going to get into detail on all the investment assumptions. We believe taking everything into account in the EUR 300,000,000 normal EBITDA effect from this investment, taking into account trend prices on the product, taking into account trend prices on key input, materials and energy and so on as well. So I think that's what we believe will be the impact of this investment in our bottom line. Okay. Yes. All right. All right. But if I look at prices for the last, let's say, 5, 10 years, I get a feeling for what's sort of behind your long term assumptions, I suppose. Yes. I think we normally look over a 15 year period to develop our trend pricing. And of course, there is some volatility in pricing of pulp. As you know, there's volatility in exchange rates. So all of that, we have to manage and come with our view of where we think that the trend level is going forward, and that's what we've done in this case as well. Yes. And then a question on your wood balance and your own sourcing of wood from your own forest. Am I right that this is not impacting the balances within Essie since you are or should one expect actually you're becoming that you will use more wood internally since you're increasing the pulp capacity? Or how should one view basically the wool balances? With the decision today, we will reduce the consumption of wood for a while. And I mean, the total consumption in Ootrekin today is 1.2 milligrams annually. And if we can find an agreement now with the union, then we have the opportunity to close down 1.2000000cubic meters of import for a while. Then we will start up the production in CT and P in 2023, but we will use substantially share of the wood that we need will come from birch, which is also good for the balance because we have an oversupply from our own forest in birch. So that is a positive thing. And then, of course, when Obbola is up and running, that will require some extra volumes in Obbola. And if and when we take the next step in Ostrand, depending on the volume, that will also, of course, require some extra volumes. But for a while now, we will improve our balance definitely, and that will also have Okay. Okay. Thank you very much for taking my questions. Thanks. Next question comes from the line of Oscar Lindstrom from Zanske Bank. Your line is open. Thank you, operator. First of all, I just want to say that your strategic staircase there has been very helpful since you're following it step by step, it feels like. My first question is around the DCTMP investment in Uxviken. You're now converting 1 of the paper machines that you had in Uxviken. Why would you not convert all of them? Or is that because the other ones are older and not as efficient? And add on to that question is, would it be feasible to add a board machine sometime in the future to the CMP line and sort of move into that segment. Is that possible? I think first, we have I mean, now we have taken the decision to convert 1 of the machines. And that will give us today, we produce 100,000 tonnes of CTMP at Ostrand. This will, when it's up and running, add another 200,000 tonnes in the market. The total market for CTMP today is 4.5 1,000,000 cubic meters. And we will with this investment, we will find a really good cost position here. But I think still, we should not challenge the market too much. And we know that there will be a the market in total will not find the fiber that's needed in the future. So I think C2P will be a really good product for the coming years. But still, I think £300,000 will be that's a rather big additional capacity. So we think this is the right balance. We can, of course, increase capacity further, and we can, of course, add the board machine. But still, this is not in the scope for the moment being. As I said, next step I think next step for us probably will be to find a way to further expand the assumption. Yes. I mean, you certainly have a lot of options there. Just a follow-up on this. Are you dismantling the other two lines at Utrechten? Or will they remain in place so that you have sort of an optionality in the future to actually increase the CP and P further if you should wish to do so? We haven't taken that decision. I mean, we can I mean, we did dismantle paper machine, too, when we closed that one back in 2015? We haven't really taken the decision yet. We now have to fulfill the negotiations, and then we can decide later on. All right. And then my second question is coming back to the wood balance. So year to date, a little bit over 50% self sufficient. And at least for a couple of years now, you'll be consuming about 1 1,000,000 tons or 1,000,000 cubes left. So you'd be sort of 60% self sufficient in the coming 2 years with the closure of the Oak Creek Inn. Is that correct? We are a bit below just slightly below 50% self sufficient today following the ramp up of Ostrand. But this will as Al said, it's 1,200,000 cubic meters we talk about. So that will increase it by, yes, around 10%, so as you mentioned. So and then the CDMP line will come on, and that will then then it will have an effect from that day forward. So we'll improve it. But again, what's really positive is that in the new City and P line, we will use birc to a certain extent. So that is very positive for us. Because today, we have well, maybe not the surplus, but still, a lot of birds available in our forest. Yes. Because I just did some very sort of rough calculations here this morning on this. And given that you're also increasing harvesting, at the same time, you'll also be ramping up expanded capacity in Obbola, and you will be starting up the news in Peline at Utveken. I sort of again, rough calculation, but you would be at about 60% sub-sixty in the future. So more than what you've been in the past. I mean, is that a position that you like? Is there sort of strategic value in that? I mean as you can see, I mean, it's a good thing to have a higher degree of self sufficiency. But on the other hand, you have seen the staircase. And I mean, we have some projects there. And we like to continue to grow our production in pulp and so on. And that will have an impact on the wood supply, of course. But we will do that in a balanced way. I mean, in many cases, the margin cost for wood is a big impact for the profitability in the project, definitely so. And also now, short term, it will have a big positive impact that we can close down a big part of the import for the moment being. But I mean, we will continue to buy wood and also forest land in the Baltics, and we will continue to develop the industry. Now we have just adapted the portfolio to growth areas, which I think is the absolute right thing to do in just now. All right. I think I'll stop there, but I think very interesting development. So thank you. Next question comes from the line of Martin Melba from ABG. Your line is open. Yes, good morning. Could you explain a bit more about the CTMP market versus the normal NGSK market, the prices you achieve, the economics and which customers can buy CTMP versus NDSK, please? Yes. I'm not really an expert into CTMP, but I think Kristina, she gave you some ideas on the special properties in CTMP with not least with the bulk and that kind of things, which is good for liquid packaging board and so on. In many cases, we will sell these products to existing pulp customers, both who already purchased CTMP from us and customers who purchased kraft pulp but could use more of CTMP. And in this investment, we expect pricing volumes go to Asia, and we will also expect CTMP to become interested in new applications due to the falling supply of recovered fiber and, in particular, white recovered fiber. Focus areas now will be packaging, packaging grades, but also high G and as mentioned. And then we have a small part already today in printing papers, but that we like to reduce as much as we can. We don't like the exposure to publication paper, neither in this area. And so the margins in CTMP versus NBSK? I'd say broadly, CTMP has a lower price level than NBSK. You have as a mechanical pulp, then you have less wood per tonne of CPMP than you do in NBSK, but it has different properties, of course. But generally, you have a lower price level, and the customer benefits also from the bulk of the product, which is a key property. So they get some cost benefits and different properties to MBSK. But the margin level is broadly similar. Okay, excellent. Thank you. Next question comes from the line of Markku Harbinen from Handelsbank. I have a few more questions. Just to start with Ostrand. I think you've said in the past that you'd like to take the capacity of the mill to 1,000,000 tonnes with the CTMP, so 900,000 tons for the NBSK line. Are you now talking about increasing capacity above that 900,000 on that line? VSK, we don't really know the potential exactly. We have said between 100,000, 200,000 tonnes in additional capacity. And I believe that we can we should reach I mean, again, it's a combination between cost and capacity as always. But I think that we can maybe do 200,000 tonnes more now than when we close down the CTP production when we take that decision. We have to do some more studies and prepare for that expansion. And in due time, I'm sure that we will do it. But again, it's a question of timing. We are now focused on negotiations with the union and also to start the project in CTMP at Orpike. Okay. Good. And in terms of the bottlenecks that discontinuing of the BCMP production at Ostrand opens? Is it sort of in bleaching? Or is it wood yard? Or what are the sort of opportunities that this creates? Yes. I mean we need space in Ostrand. It's a narrow area. It's a big mill in a narrow area, so we need space. And it was all I mean, it's also according to the long term strategy. We have we said when we started up the project in Ostrand back in 2015, that 2017, the plan was to close down the CTP production. But then we did they did a really good job at mill site and developed a new product portfolio, not the least including a lot of birch in CP and P. And we found another and more profitable market. And so my thinking, 2017, was that it was a pity to close down the market, and it has given us a good contribution over the years. But we have not invested in the old CTMP line because we knew already at that stage that if we, one day in the future, like to expand the MBBSK production, then we cannot do that and also run the CTMP production at the same site. So for us, it's much more clever now to move over the CTMP production to Beacon because there we can utilize the infrastructure, as I said, and not the least the TMP production. I mean that was close to $1,000,000,000 investment back in 'twenty. I think the integration was back in 2,009. So I mean, this a much more cost efficient way to do it now. Okay. Good. And then I appreciate that you don't want to discuss the sort of trend price level that you're seeing here. But historically, BCG and P has it traded you said it has traded at a discount to softwood pulp. But has it also traded at a discount to hardwood pulp? And what's the sort of what has been the typical pricing mechanism there on the pricing dynamic in the past? Generally, the pricing follows the same pattern as NBSK. So you follow the same cycle. And then you have a price difference of, yes, around $100 per tonne is the typical price difference between CTMP and MBSK over history. So you can see that trend. They follow the same kind of cycle. Okay. Very good. That clarifies that. Then on the wood consumption, you said you have a surplus of birch. Is it sort of is that going to fuel all of the birch that you need at the Oatvik and plant in the future? Is it going to be 100% birch? Does that birch come from the Swedish forest or Baltic forest? And if it's not on forest, does it then come from Baltics or what it's, what it's come from? I think the main part of the birds will come from our own forest in Sweden, to be honest. Very good. And then still on the two lines that you are not converting at Ortrvik. And of course, the one line that you're converting is going to stand there for 2 years before startup with the investments. And the few lines, is it feasible to sort of maintain beyond this time period? Or is it going to be too expensive to hold on to them for some potential future use? How do you see that? Clarify a bit. We have 3 paper machines in North Wiecan. And then we have the pulp refiners, which are supplying the TMP pulp to all the paper machines today. And it's so we will be using one of the paper machine lines, but the TMP is the part of the mill that we're which is recently invested and which we will convert to CTMP. So it's not as simple as saying we convert one line to and we keep 2 lines. It's really the TMP mill that we utilize in this investment primarily. Sure. And how does it split the €1,450,000,000 investment? You mean time wise? Or No, I mean what are you spending lots of the money on? I mean, it's still a fairly substantial investment while you're using existing equipment like a lot? Yes. I mean, a significant part is drying capacity because rather than the pulp being supplied onto a paper machine wet, it now has to be dried to be packaged for sale to customers. And then there are a number of other parts around connecting the parts up, but those are significant parts. But I understand correctly that you're converting 1 of the existing paper machines to a pulp dryer and the other 2 paper machines we haven't made that in Q1? No, that's not correct. We'll be having new drying units, which then dry the pulp into bales. Okay. So the paper machines will discontinue completely under flow use for them at all? Effectively, yes. They will not be used in the new mills, no. Okay. Okay. And you haven't made decisions on dismantling at this stage? No. I mean we will have to take care of them. Exactly how we both take care and dismantle is no firm decisions are taken. And obviously, we have this decision is subject to a negotiation with employee representatives until we reach that stage we can't we haven't taken a decision definitively on what will happen to them. Okay. Thank you very much. Next question comes from the line of Christian Kopfer from RDEA. Your line is open. Thanks again. Just a follow-up or a follow-up, just forwarding a question that I received from an investor here. It's about the closing cost that you have said that will be maximum SEK 900,000,000. The question is that it looks quite big and if you could break that down, if possible, why it costs so much to close it down? I understand, obviously, 800 people will be a big hold cost. But yes, if you could mention something on this. Firstly, you're right. We think that's total cost up up to €900,000,000 Obviously, this is subject to consultation and negotiation. So until we go through that process, we don't have a firm figure to give them. And we expect to be able to give a further figure when we're further along the process, of course. But included in there is costs related to employees and redundancy. There's costs related to the machines and taking care of the machines and the decommissioning machines. So those are the main items, I would say, and then some costs needed to clean up and take care of the site. If you compare it to what you have previously closed down paper machines by TON or anything? Can you compare it? Yes. I think we see this I mean the one thing I could say is when you compare to other closures of paper mills and paper machines, if you were to do a benchmark per tonne or per mill and size of mill in terms of volume or number of employees. I think we're it's pretty much in line with what other mill closures have cost. It's probably it depends a bit on the country and the geography. Typically, some countries in Europe are more expensive in France or Netherlands, whereas some other countries It depends on the legal environment and the environment you're in. But I think we view this as broadly in line with other mill closures, both in SCA and outside SCA. Okay. Thanks, Tobey. Next question comes from the line of Mitchel Balripal from UBS. Your line is open. Thank you. First of all, in terms of the paper production, sorry if I missed this, if you already commented on it, but when would you expect the publication paper production to cease at Orsig? Within 6 months. Okay. And in terms of the paper machines, would you consider selling the machines for conversion to, for example, testliner or something else if there would be such an interest in the market? We don't have the answer yet. As Toby says, I mean, now we will finalize the negotiations with the union, and then we take the decision what to do. Okay. And then finally, on the CapEx for the CPMP investment, how should we think about that in terms of distribution across the next couple of years? Yes. I think we expect the investment to come in 2021, 2022 and a little bit further in 2023. So you could split it, you could say 80% between 2021 2022 and the remaining part 2023, just to give a rough guidance. It's obviously subject to the negotiation process as well. So but that's our expectation. There are no further questions at this time. Please continue. Okay. Thank you for the interest you have shown in this press conference. I should mention that Kristine Enamder is President of Haupt and nothing else. We had a misspelling on the website, but Haupt is her business and responsibility. We will we couldn't answer all your questions. We are sure to be able to bring shed some more light on some of the questions in our quarterly report, which will be published and presented on April 30. And until then, thank you, and look forward to hearing from you again. Thank you.