Earnings Call: Q1 2012

Apr 18, 2012

Good afternoon, and welcome to the SAE Interim Report. To start with a few words on the major processes we have within SCA. Now we are in the process of changing the company substantially. We have the acquisition of Georgia Pacific. We have the divestment of packaging. We have established a joint venture in Australia. We have acquired a company, EverBeauty, in China. We have increased our shareholding in Vinda. We just announced today that we have acquired the remaining 50% in Chilean company PISA. We have introduced a completely new organization within hygiene, which will bring us closer to customer but also give us opportunity to substantial efficiency improvement. We have also expanded our forest operation by an acquisition in France. All of this is going according to plan. One thing that we don't have control over is, of course, the development, the global development. And you all know that the forecast is coming down when it comes to growth globally. We see some positive sign in U. S. A. And we can also see that on our sales. We also see the forecast in China is coming down slightly. But the interesting thing is that the products we are in China are growing as fast as they ever done. So it's different areas within China where we actually see growth going down. It's mainly probably an infrastructure that's coming down, but consumption, the internal consumption in China is growing very, very fast. Once again, our hygiene portfolio is doing very well. We are growing volumes. We are taking market share. We are improving profitability, Except for what we normally have in the Q1 is the seasonality. We have that every Q1 compared to the Q4. We have though been able this quarter to offset a good part of the seasonality by promotion. But then, of course, promotion is adding cost to the system, but keeping volume in the system. The part of our business that has been influenced negative of the economic development is Forest Industries. And we have 2 aspects of that. 1 is, of course, the economy itself, but also that we do have a change in behavior in the market from customer. We have a structural development. If we look at newsprint Q1 this year, Q1 last year, consumption is down 10%. If we look at Magazine Paper, it's down 5%. Magazine Paper, in my view, is more the economic situation and not the structural change. But newsprint is structural changing. And as a business, we have to address that in some way. As you know, in U. S, for example, consumption on newsprint is down 50% the past 5, 7 years. So we still have a huge overcapacity in the European market. On top of that, we are getting, of course, export from U. S. And even Asia into Europe. And that is putting pressure on price. So the mainly impact on Forrester, I'm getting back to that, is price but also increased costs. So to summarize this part, everything we have control of is absolutely in plan. Hygiene is doing well. We'll continue to do well. We see some problem within forest that we will address, of course, the way we can when it comes to productivity and costs. Looking at Q1 result. We do have a sales increase total in the business like for like with 4%. We have higher volumes. We have higher prices and also a very continually very good growth in emerging market, both within tissue and personal care. Then in forest, we are producing at 100% in forest. We have higher volumes, but lower prices and also some higher raw material costs. We have an increase in EBIT of 7%. And once again, it's volume. It's also cost saving, but we also see some lower raw material prices in Q1 compared to Q1 last year. We also are focusing, as you know, very much on cash flow, and we have a substantial improvement in cash flow compared to Q1 last year. We are still on a healthy level when it comes to gearing, and the net payment capacity is also on a level where we want to be. Going into Q4 to Q1. And as I said, we have the normal seasonality. Actually, from a profitability point of view, it was much larger last year than it is this year. If I remember rightly, think we had some DKK 500,000,000 in difference between Q4 and Q1. And this is also very much coming, in this case, from forest and its price, but also higher promotion during the Q1. When it comes to EBIT, we also have some impact of higher energy cost compared to Q4. Personal Care, Tissue, seasonality, marketing activities, but we have seen some lower raw material cost, in part in Personal Care. But during the quarter, we see some of the important raw material costs coming up a little bit. Pulp, wastepaper, oil based products, only excluding oil based product, only driven by China because there is no development in the Western world that is supporting any increase in raw material costs whatsoever. And we know that China goes into the market, goes out to the market. So it will have an impact up and down even through this year. Coming back to Personal Care. As you can see, we have good sales growth in all our categories and as high as 23% growth in our emerging markets. So overall, like for like and 11% growth compared to Q1 last year. We have EBIT improvement of 24%. There's a lot of stars in this now because we have so many changes in the company. So we try to at least find somewhere where we can compare like to like. We have higher volumes. We are still gaining market share. We are growing in our incontinent business. We are investing in innovation, and that should have a positive impact on the mix. And it has and it will continue to have and we do have a cost program, as you know, as we communicated Q3 last year, and that is also gradually coming in as a benefit in the profitability. Going over to Tissue. We also have a situation where we have a seasonality between Q4 and Q1, but an increase in Consumer Tissue away from home and also emerging market with some 14%. Here, we have a substantial improvement in EBIT of as much as 48%. Higher prices, as you know, we implemented price increases both in Away From Home and Consumer Tissue last year, and we see some of the impact now in the result. We also have continuous improvement in product mix. U. S, which is the market where we are striving to improve the mix most today because we still have a lower portion of added value sales than we have in Europe, and that is growing substantially well. So we get new contracts. There's a completely different margin as the volumes we are replacing. We also had a positive impact of lower raw materials in our tissue operations. Then once again coming back to forest. We do have higher volume in publication paper. We also have slight increase of prices in magazine paper. But we are suffering in solid wood. We are suffering in test liner and also in pulp when it comes to price. When it comes to volume, we are still increasing volume. The storm we had in the north of Sweden, which took down 10% of a yearly production, is adding cost to the system because, of course, it's much more expensive to try to harvest when trees are lying like this over a huge area. So that's also cost increase in this quarter. Impacting profitability and EBIT. We continue with efficiency improvement in Forest. And as you know, we have a history of productivity improvement of maybe 2% to 6% every year, and that's something we will continue to drive through this year and going forward. So short presentation summary, lots of projects ongoing in the company today, big changes, everything is in control, everything is according to plan. Hygiene is going, I think, exactly as we forecasted it to do in the last quarter report. A weaker result in forest operation than we expected due to price decreases, cost increases. A few words on the packaging, the part that are going to be divested is that we do see an increase in corrugated volume with some 0.8% Q1 to Q1. Testliner price increases that we announced have gone through by €60 and there will be another €20 coming in, in April. Kraftliner, we will increase or have increased prices with €30 There will be another €30 coming later this spring. And that's absolutely necessary for Kraftliner to get it up to a decent level. The balance in kraftliner, the market balance in kraftliner is quite good now. It's actually better than testliner. But so far, we have been able to increase the testliner in a higher speed than the kraftliner prices. So with that, ladies and gentlemen, we open up for questions. And then maybe you will help me with that. Thank you. Karri in the Hannes Banken. Two questions costs. If I look at the deviation analysis that you provide, there was some $250,000,000 in other costs in hygiene operations, so I. E, personal care and tissue. Can you go into a bit more detail on what these costs were and whether they were off Q1 nature or whether they are sustainable going forward as well? Do you want to take that? Yes, I can take it. In that division analysis, you have also the impact of that we have deconsolidated with joint venture in Australia, New Zealand. So we don't we had that profit last year. We don't have that in our own P and L this year. And then you have, I will say, the normal some more A and P spending this year as well. Okay. But then if I look at the profits on your associated companies, that actually went down quite significantly year on year. So You can say so because as an associated company, you are taking in your share of the net earnings, not the operating profit. And of course, we have also divested half of the company. Okay. All right. And of course, you have also a positive impact on the financial net with the proceeds you received from the divestment. Mikael Jovs from Chevron. Now you're going through a lot of big changes. Could you please update us if there are any important dates that we should be aware of? Will these deals go into the easy watchdog scrutiny or not? Well, I mean, we are in the process already with packaging and Georgia Pacific. And that is so far in a way going according to plan. Packaging is more simple from a competition point of view. Georgia is a little bit more complicated, which means that we'll take a little bit longer time. But we still are aiming within this quarter to finalize both. Operator, we're now ready to take calls from the telephone conference. Thank you. The first question comes from the line of Markus Almerud. Please go ahead with your question. Announcing your company name, sir. Markus Almerud here from Morgan Stanley. Just wanted to come back to forest product, if I may. And first of all, when you talk about the 10% drop off of newsprint, it's more than what we see in the market. We haven't seen March numbers yet. But if I look at just January February, it doesn't fall that much. So is it your asset base and the wood base, which is and do you lose market share? And can you just clarify that a little bit? And would you say that most of the miss you don't break it up between publication paper and Forest Products anymore. So is the shortfall more in the Forest Products area? You were mentioning the pulp having problem and also solid wood and higher cost in because of the storm, etcetera. So if you could just clarify that a little bit too, please? The first figure is the market data. I mean, we are selling everything we are producing. And I've actually got the market data from March also. But of course, it's difficult if you look at produced in Western Europe, sold in Western Europe, delivered in Western Europe from U. S, from China, etcetera. I have taken in that figure the whole European market and all the supply wherever it comes from, whether it's produced in Western Europe or not. And then you get a 10% for Q1. So it's not the SA figure, it's actually the market figure. Coming back to the second question, you're absolutely right. It is within the other areas than publication paper that we have had the hardest hit when it comes to the profitability. Okay. And then also you're right in the report that on the publication paper side, prices are still unsatisfactory low, you say. And I mean, we are going into price negotiation season quite soon. Is it too early to have any comment on that what you would be looking for? And if you think that you will be able to get prices up? I think with the current situation, demand going down and the oversupply to be able to see some price increases in newsprint would probably be very, very difficult. And normally, you have a yellow contract in that also even though it's more common now maybe with 6 months. And we also have a difficult situation within Magazine Paper. So as I see it now, I'm not sort of calculating of any price increases in Publication Paper. We do have some in Q1 already from last year, but except that, I can't see any sort of market situation that will allow price increases. On the other hand, we will increase prices in hardwood in our sawmills. So that you will see coming in the Q2. And then it depends on the market balance second half if we can continue to increase prices because that's more an oversupply situation than a demand situation. Okay. All right. Thank you very much. Next question comes from the line of Jussi Oskola. Please go ahead with your question, announcing your company name. Okay. It's Deutsche Bank. Two questions, if I may. First relates to your promotional activity that you mentioned for both Personal Care and Tissue. I was just wondering, can you quantify the impact of this both in prices and costs a bit so that we get a bit better understanding? Because I was a bit surprised that we were seeing such a drop in price and mix during the quarter. 2nd of all, does this continue when we move into Q2? Or should we assume some kind of a normalization in your pricings? 2nd relates to kraftliner. I was just wondering, you were saying that the European market as such is a bit more balanced right now for kraftliner, but how do you see the level of imports right now and perhaps the overall channel inventories? Thanks. Well, maybe just a reminder, we have actually increased EBIT with 24% in Personal Care and 48% in Tissue compared to the same period last year. And we do have and we always have a seasonality, quite a big seasonality difference between Q4 and Q1. But we have less this year because of the promotion activities. We haven't communicated how much we put in promotion, and that's not something I will reveal either for many reasons. But there is actually substantial improvement quarter to Q1 to Q1. Second question, I forgot what was that. It was about the kraftliner market and how do you see the level of imports to Europe right now and the channel inventories? I think with the lower prices we have seen on the kraftliner side the last quarter, the import has been very, very small. And it has been actually for the past year. It's a reasonable balance in the market, including imports also. But we do have a price drop rather than a volume drop. Actually, volume is up during Q1. So from that perspective, there should be a market situation that really would allow the price increases I indicated. And those together will mean more than SEK300 1,000,000 in the improvement of results in test sorry, in kraftliners. Okay. Thanks. Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Oskar Lindstrom. Please go ahead with your question and answer your company name. It's Danske Bank. I have questions especially on the Personal Care side. What significance in the Q1 results did the divestment and the consolidation of the Australasian business have? Could you quantify that please? And also if there was any unusual size in the seasonal effect in Q4 that we saw? That was my first question. If you look at the presentation, the 24% improvement in EBITDA, then we have excluded the Australian business. The 15% it's included. All right. And then you also on the Personal Care side, you mentioned strong growth in emerging markets. What about the situation in Europe and North America? In Europe, the underlying growth in terms of people getting higher income and buying more product is, of course, quite weak. The growth is driven here by invention and new products. So overall, we are in a growth situation where we have been over the past years. But we do gain market shares also in part of our portfolio, which, of course, is helping the growth. Okay. But on the tissue side, can you say anything about price pressure on the outlook for the rest of the year? And then secondly, also on the tissue side, a little bit if you could quantify the effects of the rising pulp price, should we see that already in this quarter, Q2? Or will the bulk of that be in the second half of this year, please? Well, in average, we have 4 to 4 to 5 days delay when we see the impact of price increases on pulp. So that means, of course, what you have seen in Q1 will have an impact in Q2. And normally, we haven't seen any substantial price increases, but let me just conclude that. But normally, there is a delay. If you see price increases, especially if you see fast and sudden price increases, we cannot offset that in price increases to our customers and consumers immediately. It's always a delay due to a contractual situation. But we do manage to do it either in terms of cost reduction or price increases over a certain time period. Last year we managed to do it within the year, which actually was the first time we managed to do that. But of course any price increases in raw material will have an impact on the performance. And what about your the pricing situation on the tissue side for the end product? Well, it's always a war, of course. And there is always competition in all our categories. And when pulp prices are coming down, as you saw last year, there's always a discussion with our customers on pricing. And sometimes, of course, we have to give in some prices. Sometimes we don't. Sometimes we even increase our prices. We still have a profitability that needs to be improved in Tissues. The aim we have and the belief we have is that we will gradually improve that going forward independent on pulp prices. I'm sorry, you said independent of price increases. So then you add the result of sort of further restructuring or cost cuts on the tissue side or? No, I said independent of pulp prices. Independent of pulp prices. All right. Thank you. Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Lanoos Larsen. Please go ahead with your question and answer your company name, sir. Yes. Thank you. It's Linus Larsson with SVB and SKilder. I'd like to follow-up on the price discussion. Do I understand this right that the Q1 price pressure that you see in your Personal Care and Tissue divisions are primarily mix related? And second to that, in Q2, what should we expect in terms of pricemix effects versus Q1? So in in the Hygiene business. It's more a mix question and also, as I said, increased promotion. But it's not a price pressure. Okay. It's primarily a mix question. Yes. Great. And any movements that you expect in the Q2? In terms of In terms of price mix. Depends very much on the category. But normally, of course, everything else is like Q2 is a stronger quarter for SCA. And but then, of course, everything you like depending on the raw material prices and currency movements, etcetera, etcetera. But Personal Care is not really price driven in the same way as you could see maybe in Forest and in Tissue. It's more a promotion and innovation driven business. Right. But there is nothing suggesting that part of the price pressure that you saw in Q1 should be reversed in the second quarter. There is nothing automatically suggesting that? Well, what I said is Q1 is not impacted of any price pressure. Right. Okay. And then specifically on the Personal Care side, we have on the costs into that division, we have somewhat higher oil prices, for instance. What are you seeing in terms of cost developments in the Q2 and margin developments as a result of that? As we see just now, of course, oil based is following the oil price. And we have seen an increase in oil price, which also means that oil based material will increase. And normally, we have a delay of 3 to 6 months after oil price increases before it gets into our P and L. And we also see some movements on the fluff side, which also is a big part in Personal Care, even though oil is the biggest cost item from raw material perspective. But I feel quite confident that we will be able to offset that. Okay. So margins should stick as we go into the Q2? That's my assumption today, yes. Okay. Thank you very much. Or even improve when it comes to part of the areas. Excellent. Thanks. Next question comes from the line of Ross Gilardi. Ross Gilardi from Bank of America Merrill Lynch. Just a couple of questions. First just on pulp. Prices have been going up, but did the market feel tight to you right now? Is pulp hard to get? No, it's not. It's actually the last attempt to increase prices even though when I talk to my colleagues on the pulp side, I have a different view, it's difficult to get through. So there is a resistance on the market now when it comes to further increases of pulp. Having said that, it will also I mean, it's boring to mention China all the time, but it will depend on if China continues to buy on stock or not as they have been during the Q1. But there is no problem to get pulp, no. Is that statement relevant for hardwood and softwood or one in particular? No, it's relevant for both. Okay. Great. I missed your opening comments, I think, on promotional activity in Personal Care. Could you I'm sorry to ask you to repeat that, but just give a very quick synopsis and you addressed it in some of the other questions, but whether you expect that to continue? Yes. Normally from a volume point of view, we see quite a difference between Q4 and Q1. And that's particularly in the area of maybe incontinence where there's a lot of prebuying because the budget needs to be consumed. But even in other categories, and we have been partly offsetting that during this Q1 by promotion. And is the mix impact that you're referring to in Personal Care just selling more baby diapers instead of incontinence? Is it just mix migrating towards Baby because of the new contracts in Europe? The new contracts, which in one way is extremely positive since we now cover all the costs we have in the private label business and will help to improve the overall baby business. But it is a lower margin in that than you see in the Branded business. Okay. And just generally speaking, I mean, you've had some margin slip, but some of it was seasonal into the Q1. There's sort of a 10% to 11% margin in hygiene overall feel sustainable aside from GP going forward if you have a little bit of a pickup in cost inflation continuing? I think with the processes we are driving now in the company, which, of course, are quite substantial, when we have finalized them, I'm absolutely convinced that we'll be above that level. Okay. Great. Will you come out with any new financial targets or update the market on metrics when you've closed GP and the packaging divestitures? Clearly, you're doing a lot to the portfolio now and I was just wondering about that. Yes, we are planning to have communication with the market in the autumn to look at the new S. A. And what that means and also from a financial perspective. Okay. Fine. And just one last one. Vinda, can you explain what the end game is there? So you've gone from 20% to 25% ownership. Do you see being a majority owner at some point? Or is this just a situation where you're going to increase by small increments whenever you can? Well, first of all, we believe in Vinda. It's one of the strong tissue companies in China. It's growing by 30% a year. And looking at the total investment for SA, it's been a great investment so far. We also see possibilities to combine part of the business we have in China with wind in terms of logistic and distribution. And if we could achieve that, then it will be beneficial both for Vinda and our Personal Care business in China. And of course, if we are a bigger shareholder, it may be a little bit more easy to have that kind of idea in the board for the company. And of course, a very important change now is that Mr. Li as majority shareholder is now actually below 30% as an owner. I see. And then sorry, just one more. On publication papers, I didn't quite understand what you were saying about the market development and your own volumes. You're saying your own volumes were up, but the and that's a year on year, that's what you have in the press release. But the newsprint market is down 10% on a year on year basis? Yes. If you look at the statistic that seems to be the case, yes. In the magazine, I saw a headline magazine down 5%. That's the industry for the Q1? That's the industry. If you combined WC and SC, it's slightly different development in those 2. But we have if you combine them, it's around 5%. And you said with respect to testliner and your operation in discontinued operations, your volumes were up 7% to 8% in the Q1 year on year? On Testliner? You made a comment about corrugated volumes. Sorry, 0.8%. Your volumes were up 7.8%. How is that? Sorry, 0.8%. 0.8%. 0.8%. 0.8%. 0.8%. 0.8%. Okay. Great. Thanks very much. Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Nitin Dias. Please go ahead with your question. Announcing your company name, sir. From JPMorgan in Langdon. I have two questions, if I may, and then if necessary, your third follow-up. On your Forest Products division, your year on year delta and operating profit was about SEK 300,000,000. Would you be able to give us a sense of how much of that was due to pulp versus kraft kind of a solid wood? And how much of the negative delta did you offset by better earnings on the publication paper side? That was my first question. I don't want to get into exactly the details on each of the businesses, but a majority of it is within liner and forest operation. And when you use the term forest operation, are you including pulp and wood products or only wood products in there? Then I talk about the forest operation per se, not the pulp and the hardwood. Okay. Understood. And the second one was just a housekeeping question. As far as your pulp is concerned, all the pulp that you produce internally, you account for it as revenues under the Forest Products division? And for tissue and for hygiene, the pulp required is kind of sold on an arm's length basis? Yes, absolutely. Okay. And the third one was just trying to understand your comments in terms of the industry statistics for magazine and newsprint versus what you had. So you're saying your volumes are higher. Is it because you've gained market share? Or is it because the geographies you're in did better than the average of the rest of Europe? Just trying to understand what's happening there. I mean in the market situation you have now, of course, you have some very important customers that you keep year after year. And then you have customers that you can gain a different year. But we have also been able to export outside Europe, which has been very important. So that's why we haven't sort of had the 10% drop because we have offset it in the different markets outside Europe. So we haven't been trying to get market share, but getting it out of Europe. Okay. That's helpful. Just a follow-up on this negative delta that I see on a year on year basis. If I look at it on a sequential basis for the Forest Products division, your earnings were still down probably about 100 and $50,000,000 or $200,000,000 roughly in that ballpark. From my understanding, most of the prices of pulpkraftliner kind of bottomed out somewhere between Q4 and Q1. Is there a kind of a lag effect that you guys faced, which meant that your Q1 was worse off than your Q4? I mean, you're thinking about inventories or? No, no, I'm just talking about the pricing because I see your earnings on a sequential basis in the Fordist Products division down probably between SEK150 1,000,000 and SEK200 1,000,000. And from my understanding, the pricing that you referred to, at least on pulp and kraftliner, kind of bottomed out between these two quarters. I'm trying to understand whether the weighted average impact of pricing was higher in the I mean, the weighted average pricing was lower in the Q1 versus the Q4 of last year as well for you guys for Pulp and Kraftliner? Yes. For liner, definitely. And also we have seen that in solid wood, for example. Okay. Thank you very much. The next question comes from the line of Oskar Lundstrom. Please go ahead with your question. Announcing your company name, sir. Yes. It's Danske Banksto. Just two follow-up questions, a clarification regarding the mix change in Personal Care, which you mentioned. Could you confirm I understood that it was you selling more private label baby diapers in Europe and less I presume of everything else including incontinence products than in the previous quarter. Is that correct? That's part of the explanation. Were there any other and I presume though that mix change is going to remain with us in this quarter for the rest of the year? But at the same time, we have a higher portion of incontinence sale in the Q4, which is of course impacting the mix. Okay. So I mean that's for the mix and the seasonal effect. Yes. I mean all alike, you will see a higher Baby margin this year compared to last year. Right. And the promotion that you had in the Personal Care segment, you mentioned that this because you had heavier promotion in the Q1 than you usually do in the Q1, you were able to partly offset the usual volume decline that you have Q1 over Q4. Was the promotion mainly in incontinence or was it related to the increasing sales or the start up of more production on the private label baby diapers side? It was mainly nothing in incontinence, but in the other categories. All right. Thank you. And yes, right. No, I mean, that was my follow-up question. Thank you. Thank you. Next question comes from the line of Johan Sjoberg. Please go ahead with the question announcing your company name, sir. Yes. Hi, it's Carnegie here. Could you say something about your promotion? I hate to bore you to death with all these A and P questions here. But promotion in tissue, has that been a major thing during Q1 versus Q4, would you say? We have had higher promotion in tissue Q1, yes, absolutely. So I mean if you look at your total E and P spending, there was an earlier question about SEK 250,000,000 and Lemus, you said part of that was due to the deconsolidation of the Australian business here. But if you look at the E and P spending as a split between Personal and Care and Tissue, could you give a rough estimate? I know you're not going to give the whole figure, but I mean for the whole company? Well, no, between Personal Care and Tissue, just to get a feeling for how big was in Tissue compared with Personal Care. Was it much bigger in Personal Care or For the specific quarter or overall? Yes, please. For this quarter, please. Okay. We have seen higher A and P in both categories. Yes. Hear you try to avoid the question, but in Q2, will we see the same type of A and P spending? You will over the year, you will not see any higher A and P than we have had previous year. And Q2 is normally a strong quarter volume wise anyway. So I don't see that we continue with this high level in Q2. Okay. And also the cost for the storm, how much was that, the storm effect or the fellings in Forest Products? Well, we haven't given that out really yet. And one reason is also because we don't have all the facts yet since we haven't taken care of all the forest that is down on the ground. But in the end, it will probably be a washout because we can buy cheap rolls on the market, but it's different timing. Now publication paper is not something that you're disclosing anymore when it comes to the figures, But were you profitable in publication in Q1? Yes. Good. And also the earlier question about margins in Hygiene, for was that margins for the Hygiene operations in Q2 that you foresaw to be flat or even higher in quarter 2 over Q1? That was yes, it was a long time ago. Sorry. It was I think it was a question on Personal Care that I answered. Okay. And if you want to include tissue into that then? Well, I think everything else like in tissue, Q2 should also be a stronger quarter. But we do see some cost increases in pulp, so we have to be careful with that. But on the other hand, you have better volumes from your North American away from home business, I guess. Yes. Okay. Cool. Thanks a lot. Thank you. We have a follow-up question from the line of Markus Ammerou. Please go ahead with your question, sir. Hi, Markus Armer from Morgan Stanley. Very quickly, what do you see in terms of wood cost going forward, both on the pulpwood and on the log side? Well, I mean, as the situation is today in the part of the world we are operating, we don't see any reason for that to increase. I know it's a careful answer, but that's what we at least see today, no increase in prices. Okay. Thank you. So Peter, there's no further questions registered on the phone lines. Thank you. Do we have any more questions, please? Yes. Karin, Anders Bank. Can you give us an indication of what will happen to your pulp balance once you have consolidated Georgia Pacific, I. E, how much pulp will you be buying on an annual basis? I think we already today are the biggest buyer in Europe, and we are self sufficient to around 40% today. And if I remember rightly, Mats, you know that it will be around 30% after Deutsche Pacific self sufficient in pulp. Okay. Will that make you more inclined to increase your own pulp production given that your margins seem to be relatively volatile? Not really. I think that has to stand on its own merits. It's I mean, from a group level, of course, it's good to have some sort of hedge in some commodity. But from a tissue perspective, they will anyway pay the market price. And as long as we are in the same situation as our competitors, that should not be a driver. And what is your 30% self sufficiency? Is that higher or lower than your main competitors in pulp? It's higher than LME, I think. Okay. Thanks. Okay. No more questions from the room. We have more from the Operator, could you please We do have another question registered from the line of Julian Gould. Please go ahead with your question announcing your company name, sir. Hello. Julian Gould from Intrinsic Valley Investors. Can I just ask the for the split of the sales and operating profit please in the Forest Products division as you've always provided in the past? And could I ask you to provide that going forward, please? Do you have an answer or not? No, I have not. What we're giving, you can see in the report, is that we're giving the delivered volumes. But you've given sales and EBIT for at least the last 10 years that I've covered the company? That's true. But in the changes we're in now, we have 3 distinguished business units, and that's Tissue, Personal Care and the Forest Operations. And we don't really split up tissue and personal care in the way we did with the forest previously. So that's why we have decided to keep it similar between the different business areas. Okay? Okay. Okay. Thank you very much. Until next time.