Earnings Call: Q2 2019

Jul 18, 2019

Thank you very much, operator. Good morning, and welcome, everyone, to Cinch AB's Q2 twenty nineteen conference call. My name is Thomas He. I'm Chief Strategy Officer and Head of Investor Relations. With me on the call today, I have our CEO, Oskar Werner and our CFO, Roshan Saldaner. And with those welcoming remarks, I'll pass the word over to Oskar. Thank you, Thomas. So welcome to this call for the Q2 report. So I will start at the Slide 2 or first slide, Sims of the Glance. So that said, we've seen this slide a couple of times, but just to repeat for any newcomers. So our main business is delivering customer engagement through mobile technology. We have a scalable cloud communications platform for messaging voice and video. So basically by reaching people on the mobile phone, you can engage or our customers can engage their customers or partners or employees via messaging, voice and video services. Interesting thing about this market that always strikes me is it's got 100% consumer penetration. I've yet to meet one single person that is not a user. That is everyone that I've met so far have either used mobile technology to make a call to the doctor, to call their favorite taxi service app or to receive messages to for web checking or something like that. It's very, very broad penetration at the scale of mobile phones. It's a growing global multibillion dollar market. It strikes me as well that whatever country you go to, these type of services are used by a very large number of enterprises. We serve 8 out of 10 of the largest U. S. Tech companies. So we are serving the some of the big absolute biggest companies in the world, and we've done that organically from Sweden due to very high quality of service. So when somebody wants to deliver these type of services at a global scale with very low latency at very high quality, then we are one of the absolute top choices. We also do software for mobile operators based on the same underlying platform. So then let's move to next slide, the growth markets. So the market continues to grow and that is apparent in pretty much all categories. We got the messaging market, which is our even though we're presenting messaging voice and video, our biggest portion of our revenue is in messaging. So the messaging market is a $17,000,000,000 market as of today, and it's growing. It's growing actually both on the text messaging side, but also on the newer forms of messaging, the rich messaging formats, so RCS, OTT channels. And there are various reports showing different growth rates in that, but it's definitely a growth market. And then we got what's called CPaaS, that is more the software as a service on top of the communication channels, which is projected by pretty much all parties to grow at very rapid rates. So we're at the intersection of the CPaaS software as a service. We're adding more software. And the messaging side, which is growing both on the base, on text messaging, but also on the new formats. So market wise, we're in a good spot. All right. Go to the next slide. So April to June 2019. So we saw gross profit rise with 29 percent up to $321,000,000 from $248,600,000 So that's a healthy growth that we're happy with. We saw adjusted EBITDA rise with 17%, up $114,000,000 from $97,400,000,000 So we're also happy about that. Adjusted EBIT, excluding acquisition related amortization to EUR 104,000,000. So you can see that the our EBITDA to EBIT acquisition related amortizations. And the profit after tax being 53%, and there you obviously have the acquisition related amortizations. In local currency, our gross profit growth 26%, So a little lower effect on currency in this quarter. And this is also a clean quarter from an M and A perspective. And as we said, many quarters now, we continue investments to capture new market growth opportunities, and that affects our earnings before these new initiatives translate into higher revenues and gross profits. The logic here is very simple. We see a very good growth market. We see a lot of growth opportunities in the newer formats and in the more SaaS related software. So therefore, given that we have a strong trajectory, we think it's good to invest in those areas in order to set us up for a very solid growth in the coming years. That's the very simple calculation. If we move on to the next slide, so the key growth drivers. So we have 4 main growth drivers today. 1 is the rising messaging challenge with the U. S. Large with the large U. S. Tech companies, big growth driver for us. We see our growth in personalized video. This is one of the areas of the newer formats where we are definitely the leader. And we see strong traction with a large number of brands in this area, and we're investing in order to continue growing at a rapid rate. We see, as we've seen in previous quarters, strong growth in voice and video. So that's also an area where we invest and serve very large customers. And we see the operator business doing well and has been doing for some time, but it's I'm happy to see that it continues to do well. So that's our current main growth drivers. And then we're working on a couple of others for the future in order to set us up for future growth. If we then move on to the investment areas to explain a little bit with what we are doing and where we are investing. So we got obviously, when you're growing gross profit with 25%, you have to grow the organization just to keep up with the new number of client wins and the new traffic and volumes. So that's a basic area, which we don't cover on this slide, but that's obviously true. But if we look a little bit more to the forward looking investments, they fall into 3 main categories. One area is just operational efficiency, where we invest in our own systems. It's internal automation for improved scalability. It is improving our COGS and it's improving automation for our clients like client self-service tools. And that's a relatively large area for us. We see at the growth rates we have, we need to continue to invest in our own scalability in order to have the to have a good scalable business going forward. Then we are investing in sales and marketing. We've done the new brand, but it's also we're now focusing efforts a lot more to strengthen litigation and to generate more leads into our sales force. We are investing in international expansion of the personalized video products. We see the first launches now in Europe. This is a U. S. Acquisition in Seattle, and we have brought it over to Europe. So we see the first launches with operators and customers in Europe of the personalized video product, which is very strong. And we also see how we can bring a technology from one area where we made the technology investments and bring it out to other markets. We see the proof points of that and how effective that is right now, which we're very happy with. We have a greater focus on new sales in Europe. So adding a new sales team and being more aggressive on outreach onto new customers into Europe. And we're investing in geographic expansion into Asia, where we have local sales teams in China and a couple of new countries where we see good opportunities in the market. And the third area is new technology. So software for advanced interactive messaging such as RCS, OPT, WhatsApp, etcetera. New channels like WhatsApp and RCS, sorry. The first point is this is both investing in channels and in the way to handle an interactive conversation over messaging. So our previous or our current base is very much notifications and one way messages. And we're seeing the markets now turning into conversations. So consumers are starting to answer on the outbound messages, and that requires a more advanced software to handle those responses in a good way for our customers. And we're also investing in RCS as a service for mobile operators. So that's the 3 main areas where we're making investments in forward looking apart from just supporting, obviously, the gross profit growth. So operational efficiency, sales and marketing and new technology. And we think all of those will drive to our bottom line in the medium to longer term. If we move on to next slide, so continued growth in messaging. So we see rising message volumes this quarter as well. We higher growth on the gross profit side than in transactions, which we'll see on the next slide, but we see rising message volumes. We see the U. S. Tech companies fueling growth, and we see personalized video fueling growth. We see that we are investing in the next generation messaging as the plan we have communicated and had for quite some quarters now. And again, the reason is very simple. We just see very rapid growth in new areas, and I think it is responsible of us to invest in those areas in order to capture that type of growth. On the next slide, the rising message volumes. We're growing both with existing customers, new customers and new use cases. This quarter, we see a 7% organic growth in transactions. But on the other hand, we see a 22% organic growth in gross profits. So this is the move to more we're on a track to move to more advanced messaging and more value add. And as we can see, the customers we win and where the highest amount of growth is in our base right now is in the higher value transactions and where the lower amount of growth is in the lower value transactions. And therefore, you see skewedness here to higher growth in gross profit and lower growth in transactions, which is to be expected to be expected. So focusing more on the higher value than on the wholesale part of our business. If we then go on to the next slide, so the gross profit per transaction. So this is painting the same picture. So the gross profit per transaction is growing and has been growing for quite some quarters. And then we see the OpEx per transaction is also growing. And as we're investing in the new services, we get more software to sell and we do more advanced things. And then both of those cars are growing. Both of them are also affected by FX effect, of course. Specifically, the GP per transaction is rising due to us investing and growing faster than average on the personalized video. We also have a carousel tailwind and increased traffic to profitable markets. So going into the harder to serve markets, we can generally make more money per transaction than we can in the easy to serve market. And now we're serving global companies in a lot of hard to serve markets. We're proving good to do that, and therefore, we see gross profit grow as well as the new services. Next one, the OpEx investments to capture growth. So this is a graph where we think is very powerful. This is the messaging EBITDA per gross profit. So we are around between 40% 50% of the gross profit we generate turn into EBITDA. I think this shows very well the scalability in our business. It's a very strong metric, which we're happy with. And you see here that the revenue gross margin depend on the mix on the terminating markets. So when you have a good the good mix of terminating market, this graph goes up. And this is this EBITDA per gross profit shows margin excluding the mobile operators charges, so this is the clean margin. And as you can see a little bit on the slide, the growth initiatives weigh on the profitability before they translate into high revenue and earnings. But I think this slide is strong, and it shows a little bit of the trend that we've been talking about in the previous slides as well. If we move on to the next, so voice and video. We see high growth in voice and video. As you can see, continued growth in Q2, while we're turning on the clients that we have won. Also seeing, as you can see, on the EBITDA side, we are given the rapid rise in revenue and transactions, we need to invest quite a bit in this area in order to keep up with the customers that we have signed. So this is a core focus here. So like you know, we have worked harder to turn this into profit. We have signed a set of very large customers. And when those customers are ramping their traffic, we need to work hard in order to expand into new markets in order to keep the high quality of service. So that's what we see on the EBITDA front there where we just need to make sure we have good quota service and follow our customers into new markets in this type of a rapid ramp. And if we look on the next slide here, the operators. So we also have a healthy profit in operators. We've had an improved conversions of order to sales in this type of business. As you know, it's a fluctuation, quarterly fluctuations as projects are realized. And we are investing in RCS as a service for mobile operators. But generally, the trajectory here has been good, and we see and has been good in the previous quarter and we see a good pipe going forward as well. With that said, I'm going to leave over to Roshan to do a little bit of a deeper dive into the Q2 financials. Thank you, Oskar, and good morning to all of you taking time on this summer day to join us on this call. Turn to Page 14 for the condensed income statement. This was a stable quarter with no extraordinary items in the income statement. Consolidated net sales grew by 18% in the quarter to SEK1.177 billion. The growth rate in the quarter was positively affected by the movement to the Swedish kroner, primarily against the euro. The organic growth of net sales in local currency was 15%. EBIT came in at SEK 73,000,000 versus SEK 40,000,000 in the same period previous year. Acquisition related amortization, which does not affect cash flow, was SEK 31,000,000. This amortization relates mainly to planned amortization of acquired brand, customer and operator relationships as well as software. Adjusted EBIT, which excludes both items affecting comparability and amortization of acquisition related intangible assets, amounted to SEK 104,000,000, which gives, I think, a better reflection of our strong cash flow generation capability in the business. Moving on to Slide 15. Slide 15 shows a bridge explaining our underlying gross profit development. A significant part of our revenues are passed on as cost of goods sold to mobile operators. We pay them to send place calls, but the rates they charge vary greatly between markets. Since pass through revenues do not contribute to our profits, we focus almost exclusively on gross profit when we assess and steer our business. Changes in our gross margin often reflects changes in geographical mix rather than underlying performance or competitiveness. This bridge explains the different components in our gross profit growth and the organic growth in local currency and comparable units. We have had no acquisitions since the Q2 of 2018. Consolidated gross profit rose by 29% during the quarter to SEK321 1,000,000. Positive exchange rate movements explained SEK9 1,000,000 or 3% of this increase. So organic growth in gross profit in local currency and comparable units was 26%, which we believe is a very strong development in line with the previous trends. Organic gross profit growth was 22% in the Messaging segment, contributing SEK 45,000,000, 100% from a small base in the voice and video segment, contributing SEK11 1,000,000 and 26% in the operator segment, contributing SEK8 1,000,000. In messaging, the growth is coming both from a shift in mix of our customer base to more enterprise customers, which has been a focus of the company to drive as well as from newly added products such as personalized messaging through the acquisition of Vehicle in 2018. Moving on to Slide 16. Slide 16 shows the scalability in our growth within the Messaging segment. We grew volumes by 7% year over year, which also reflects a shift in our customer base as we gradually increase our enterprise customer base as well as grow more with our existing enterprise customers, whereas our wholesale customer base continues to be stable to slightly weak. This is reflected in our revenues, which grow faster organically than the volumes, as we sell more software and value through, for example, personalized messaging. We can also add differentiation in quality to our service delivery through offering different routing options. Finally, this shift is most visible in our gross profit, which reflects the higher value add that we deliver to our customers, Starving more demanding customers and being able to deliver traffic globally at a high quality through our super network has made this gross profit growth possible. Oskar earlier talked about investing for continued growth and highlighting the main areas of growth being driving internal operational efficiency and quality, increasing our sales and marketing efforts, as well as investment in new technology. Please turn to Slide 17 to see a summary of the number of resources at Cinch. I would like to talk about the size of our investment as a company and what we believe will deliver growth during the coming periods here. Our headcount is distributed in many different locations other locations with significant concentration of resources. We have grown headcount in the company with 23% during the previous 12 months. Please note that these numbers are quarterly averages. A lot of the work that is being done is to support our gross profit growth in the current periods, but there are also investments in the areas that Oskar described earlier. These investments are taken through our income statement as OpEx, and we have very limited capitalization of resource costs, which I believe to be a prudent handling. We also continue to maintain our financial targets of growth in adjusted EBITDA per share by 20% per year and are using part of the current growth in gross profit to secure growth in the coming periods, as has been stated previously. Please turn to Page 18 for the cash flow statement. Cash flow from operating activities was SEK130 1,000,000 in the quarter. Change in working capital fluctuates from quarter to quarter. I think it was negative previous quarter and it's positive this quarter because many of our customers maximize their liquidity by postponing payments to suppliers at quarter end. Actual customer losses remain very low at 0.05%, and cash flow in relation to operating profit is slightly improving over time. Net debt at the end of the quarter amounted to SEK 441,000,000, down from SEK 484,000,000 at the end of the Q1 this year. The implementation of IFRS 16 on 1 January 2019 has increased the company's net debt by SEK 84 1,000,000 as we also informed at the end of the Q1. In addition, the company has made a payment of SEK8 1,000,000 or SEK74 1,000,000, which is reflected on the line acquisition of subsidiary in the statement, which relates to the earn out clauses from the acquisition of Vehicle a year ago. Net debt to EBITDA is at 1.0. With the previous accounting principles before IFRS 16, the net debt to EBITDA would be 0.9 down from 1.4 a year ago. We have also previously received questions regarding the differences between our operating results or adjusted EBITDA and cash flow before changes in working capital. Hence, we are now adding a bridge on Slide 19 to explain the effects between these items. We have no non recurring items this quarter, and hence, our adjusted EBITDA and reported EBITDA are both at SEK114,000,000 giving a margin EBITDA margin of 9.7%. From this, the most important items to deduct are, of course, our finance net, which is the net of finance income and finance expenses, as well as paid taxes. Paid taxes can vary between quarters depending on the local practices in individual jurisdictions. In Q2, we have the effect of tax payments in the U. S. Each year. In addition to this, we have the effect of unrealized exchange rate differences both on operating activities as well as on our intercompany and external borrowing. These are minor in the quarter, but as you can see for Q2 2018, they can vary between quarters. Hopefully, this bridge and this page gives you some additional insight into our cash flow from operations. Finally, Slide 20 summarizes our financial targets. The financial targets for the company are unchanged from what we have previously stated, where we aim to grow adjusted EBITDA per share by 20% per year and maintain net debt below 2.5x adjusted EBITDA over time. Measured on a rolling 12 month basis, we grew adjusted EBITDA per share by 41% in this quarter. Net debt to EBITDA was down at 1x down to 1.4x a year ago. So with that comment, I would like to hand back to Oskar to summarize the presentation. Oscar, I think we can't hear you there. Sorry, I had to unmute. So as you've seen, we're in a good market. And we're focusing now on delivering ourselves now at the same time as setting ourselves up for the future. So if we look forward on the future, and we continue to have a strong pipeline with U. S.-based global tech companies, both growing with existing customers and targeting new. We have a larger FIG organizations as a result of these investments. And now we see that we have teams in place, larger amount of people focusing on new sales, which we are seeing starting to generate leads, which we're have not seen in the numbers yet. We see them in the cost numbers, of course, but we don't see them in the revenue numbers in a measurable way, but we see them in our own place, and we're very happy with them. So we believe that's going to drive future growth for the future. As you can see, this point is new on this. We did believe a couple of quarters ago that we had too few new salespeople, and therefore, we did made investments to do so and which should turn into growth in the future. We further growth in personalized video, further growth in voice and video, both of those markets are strong. And then as you see as we've said many times, we're investing in the rich media, conversational messaging, RCS and OT chat apps to capture the new growth market potential. We're increasingly convinced about the how strong those markets are, looking at our own performance in personalized video, looking at other companies' performance in those areas, we see strong growth, well above our average in the new messaging areas. And therefore, we feel confident in investing in those areas, both on the go to market sales marketing side and on the technology side. With that said, I want to thank you all for participating on this call and open up for questions. Thank Your first question comes from the line of Frederic Liddell from Danske Bank. Please go ahead. Your line is open. Thank you and good morning. Two questions, if I may, then on messaging. You talked about you're pushing the focus away a little bit from wholesale and on enterprise customers. Can you describe a little bit more over the sort of 2 year period or 3 year period how that will progress and how we should see that? Because I mean, you're doing a lot of transactions on a wholesale basis. So how will that develop? If you could expand on that, that would be great. And the second thing, investments. You talk about the investments. We can see the headcount and the consultants coming in and helping. When do you think you are on a sort of a correct level to facilitate for all the investments you want to do? Should we expect that the headcount will continue to increase with 15%, 20% per year because you will always get into a situation and you see new investments? Or do you feel you're coming to a situation where you have a platform that will be able to cater for the investments you see for a 2, 3, 4 year period would be great. Thank you. Thank you, Fredrik. I think I'll leave the first question to Rokshan and then have Oskar answer the second. Yes. I think, Frederik, on your first question, on the shift to enterprise, I think it's good to remember that this company has actually been growing its enterprise customer base for quite some time, and we see the good results of that in the gross profit growth. I mean, if we talk about the U. S. Big tech companies, for example, or also yes, mainly in the U. S. Edge edge where we've had good success in getting enterprise customers. I mean, I think it's difficult to forecast exactly how this development will take place, but our aim is to keep and be continued to be relevant in our cost leadership in the wholesale customer base. What we are seeing is that we can add more enterprise customers and definitely deliver more software and value and at higher margins to the enterprise customer base, which will drive future growth. I think that's helpful. Yes. Sorry, if I can just follow-up there. Is it fair to assume then sort of that the transaction volumes and maybe your revenue, your top line will sort of grow slower irrespective of how much it will grow. But if we grow slower, then your gross profit will grow. Is that a fair assumption if you take a 2 to 4 year horizon on it? I think we don't I mean, it's difficult to forecast so long forward. I think if we look in the near term, that's definitely that trend that we are seeing. And yes, and I think it's the good part is that the messaging market is continuing to grow, and we will continue to play a strong role in this. And I think our focus will be on winning more enterprise customers, but we want to keep our wholesale customer base and our cost leadership. Then I think looking at over a 3 year period, it is really difficult to forecast how that plays out. But in the near time, yes, that's probably how it will be. Thank you. All right. And on the second question, well, I can't make forward looking statements, but I can comment on our logic when we make those investments, which will probably guide you in how we think. So what we're doing is, obviously, we're now we have we're looking at the what is the payback and what is the traction of the investments we're doing. So when we thought for a couple of quarters ago that we needed to start investing in those areas because we see a lot of traction. And now we have done that, the level of investment is how successful are we driving a growth rate based on those investments basically. If we see very high growth in those investments, we're likely to invest. If we see lower growth, then we're likely to take it down. So I think it's going to be very much down to the market traction on the new investment area. The other constraining or fact that we are obviously living within is what is the general gross profit growth in our company. If we continue to grow gross profit and in general EBITDA in general in a good way, then we have obviously a larger space to decide, do we want the likelihood for profits tomorrow. So that's the two factors that we are scaling with here. And we are, as you can imagine, now we have pushed pretty hard on the investment area, and we're right now in a discussion of what's the right level going forward for shareholder value, and we're doing that in a responsible way. And it's really those 2 factors, how much EBITDA do we want to generate today or tomorrow, if that will, and how much do we want to increase the likelihood of high growth in a couple of quarters out. And that's the balance we're trying to strike in the day that is best for the shareholders. So I think that's the 2 things that you're seeing and the 2 things that we are weighing. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Very clear. And just a housekeeping question, if I may, In the cash flow, the earn outs you had in this quarter, are there any earn outs left in due to the contracts and acquisitions before? Or are we do we have them behind us? So I think there is some information in the report on that. We can come back, but it's clearly stated, but we'll connect offline with details there. It's all in the report. Thank you. Thank you. There are currently no further questions. Please continue. Oh, we've just had another question from Frederik Lichtau from Danske Bank. Please go ahead. Your line is open. Thank you. I can continue if you don't have any other ones asking questions then. A little bit on the other two segments besides messaging. On operator side, you are up at a higher gross margin now for 2 quarters. Is this sort of the level just above 90% we should expect. I mean Q2 wasn't the strongest of quarters, but you had a higher gross margin. Could you sort of put some time on the gross margin for Operator Division going forward, please? Give us one moment there, Frederic. Thank you. Yes. I mean, I think, Frederic, just a very quick response on that one. The operator I mean, the operator segment, of course, depending on to mobile operators to enable them to provide value added services to their end customers as well as for policy and charging reasons. And I think it can the gross margin can vary depending on exactly sort of which customers, which part of the world and which products that we are selling from quarter to quarter. In general, we see a very good strong gross margin within this area at around 90%. And I think we have a strong sales pipeline, both within our traditional products, but also now when we offer RCS as a service, we have a strong interest in that product as well. But is it so sorry, is it so that SaaS is not a very big share of revenues right now, but when it grows, it will also help the gross margin, I guess, because every time you get the monthly revenue from in a SaaS model, you don't really have any costs associated to that. So will that help gross margin when that sounds more relevant? If we're saying are you referring to the operator division? Yes, exactly, sorry. Yes. So I mean, I think you're correct in the sense that there is a gradual shift in business model in parts of that business, but we shouldn't exaggerate the pace there. RTS as a Service has that logic, I mean, in the way that, that commercial offer is phrased, exactly as you described. However, it's at a very early stage. We launched this product offer in spring. So it will take some time before that has a material impact. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. And your next question comes from the line of Daniel Durchberg from Handelsbanken. Please go ahead. Your line is open. Thank you very much. Danie Durchberg, Handelsbanken, for coming late into this call. There's another call I have to take. The question has already been asked. I was thinking a little bit about voice and video. You talked about the growth you have had there in number masking and verification. Is that pure connected to a handful of customers? Or is it like 1 or 2? And should we expect this growth to continue as a more of a positive trend from a number of customer? Or will it start to decelerate because of that we have comparing apples with apples year over year? Oscar will leave that to you. Yes. I didn't really understand the last comment. The persistent effect that we're comparing apples to apples, I didn't understand. The growth prospects you see in voice and video from the number masking verification, we have seen really strong Yes. No, I mean, we are seeing strong growth prospects in number masking and verification. And as we alluded to, we're also seeing when you sign up a handful, it's not one, it's a handful of big customers that you when you do this type of turn, you focus on a handful of big customers in order to get focused. So we also say that we need to focus a lot on these customers in this period in order to serve them in with new product and market requests and in order to serve their growth. So it's a handful or a set of customers. It's a very good customer base. And we see good growth prospects, but we also see that we need to focus on these customers to nail them home in 100% in this type of growth scenarios before we can fully unleash the full sales power in order to hunt a very large number of new customers. We are finding new customers and we are focused on new customers, but it's a little bit less focused right now due to wanting to serve existing customers in a very good way. Okay. And jumping over to operators, just a question on 2 things really. The first thing is you mentioned improved conversion of orders to sales. Can you say something about pipeline in operator segment year over year, etcetera? And also the RCF as a service, your model there really in terms of revenue model, how is it working? Thank you. Otter, if you want to answer those? So pipeline, yes, we see a good and strong pipeline in operators on a historic high level. Then it's, as you know, in those sub businesses, it's then all about the order conversion into orders. So yes, we see a strong pipeline. Now we need to turn it into orders for H2. So that's what we see. We also see that we can we're able to address larger operators when combining the brands. And from terms of the Sedge, it becomes a more credible partner for larger operators. We see that possibility of doing so. And then the larger operators obviously come with a higher cost to serve and obviously higher revenue as well. But we see that shift this game. With regards to RCS as a service, what's your question about the pipeline or at the revenue model? And more about the revenue model. How is it pure? Do you get a different kind of buffer upfront and then revenue share? Or how is it working? Yes. It's all about it. We tried to set the revenue model as an upfront to cover the cost and as a monthly fee to cover the upfront cost and a monthly fee to cover the monthly costs or the recurring costs and then have the upside based on the revenue share or SaaS fee, if you will, which a software as a service offering. So it's a tick based fee, where you have the majority of the upside. But we tried to set it up so that we can cover the cost, but then have a significant upside if things go well. And can you remind us if you have announced any official orders there on any names or references as of yet? On RCF and SOVEST, we have not announced an official. Okay. Good luck with that and good luck in Q3. Thank you. Thank you. There are currently no further questions. Please continue. There are no further questions. I think we'll wrap up here. Thank you, everyone, on behalf of all of us here in the management team for listening in. And looking forward to speak again after our Q3 results. So thank you very much and goodbye for now.