Today, and really glad to have all of you here in this room, and we're also sending with a webcast here today. So, I will not be here alone. My name is Stefan Sjöstrand. I am the CEO of SkiStar, and I have a host with me here today, Emelie Lundgren.
That is my name. Thank you, Stefan. And these are, if I understand it correctly, the team that's present here today.
Correct. Yeah.
From SkiStar. Okay. So yes, my name is Emelie Lundgren. I have a background as a financial journalist, but today I'm a director at Fogel & Partners. I guess you could call me the chief order officer of today because I hope to make sure that all of you, and also you watching from afar, have the opportunity to join in in the discussion. But Stefan, that's very many. We're not going to hear from everyone, are we?
No, we are not, actually. So, this is the agenda for today, and you will be listening to Niclas, Lars-Göran, Martin, Mathias, and myself presenting here today and we have a, yeah, good afternoon together, and apologies for the small screens, but I hope you will manage to see the numbers we are showing you.
And that it's crystal clear for you watching on the broadcast as well. So, as you see, there's three presentations before we have a break, then followed by two. After each presentation, I will reappear to make sure that we can ask some questions before the next speaker comes up. And then at the end, we will have an extended Q&A where you all can ask questions. You in the room, you can raise your hand, we'll bring a microphone to you, and you can join in. You on the webcast, just below the video frame where you hopefully see me right now, you have a function where you can submit your questions, and I will ask them for you. So, Stefan.
Thank you so much, Emelie. And before we start off with all the slides, we were planning to say, okay, how should we start this day off and so on? And then we decided actually to do a movie. So, bear with me, guys. We will not give you any popcorns, but take a seat, six minutes, and relax, and you will have a short movie. So, let's go.
SkiStar's journey began almost 50 years ago. Much has changed since then. Many developments have taken place, but a lot of things have also stayed the same. Back in August 1975, two brothers from Skåne, Mats and Erik Paulsson, made the journey from Skåne to Sälen in search of leisure and accommodation for their staff at Peab. They found exactly what they were looking for and returned home with a ski slope and an entire cabin village. And that was the start of what we know now as SkiStar. The brothers weren't the only ones to fall in love with Sälen and the Alpine leisure facilities, and so the facility grew rapidly. Today, Sälen is the 16th largest ski resort in the world. More destinations were acquired, and in 1999, Vemdalen joined the SkiStar family with its facilities in Storhogna, Klövsjö, Vemdalsskalet, and Björnrike.
In the same year, SkiStar proudly introduced Åre as a member of the SkiStar family, a resort with historic landmarks and world-class mountain tourism. The resort has since hosted three Alpine World Cups, over 100 World Cups competitions, and become a recreational mecca for millions of visitors. The Scandinavian Alps, or Hemsedal, as Norway's second largest ski resort is also known, was acquired a year later, and in 2005, Norway's largest and perhaps most popular ski resort of Trysil joined. SkiStar now owns Scandinavia's top five ski destinations, and together they have forged and redefined Scandinavian mountain tourism into something unique in Europe and the world under the name of SkiStar.com. The site serves as a one-stop booking platform for 35,000 + beds and gets over 33 million visits a year.
Out of this, Stockholm's gem, Hammarbybacken, a unique landmark that has hosted World Cup competitions and delivered unique Alpine experiences for Stockholm residents and their guests for many years. Stockholm's Hammarbybacken is also our innovation hub, hosting futuristic experiences all year round. This environment and type of exercise has become a tradition for many. Rosy cheeks are synonymous with leisure activity, both now and 50 years ago. But the holiday experience has evolved over the years. Activity and socializing remain key, but the desire to live better and eat well has changed. Long johns have been largely replaced by smart, functional clothing. Indoor chefs are increasingly competing with restaurant visits, and board games have topped off with bowling and a visit to the spa. When we're away, we want to live and eat better than we do at home.
That's what SkiStar Lodge is all about, an accommodation concept for our guests designed with convenience in mind, as is reflected in the lodge's proximity to the slope, their comfy beds, the countless activities, and wide range of cuisines they have to offer. This is an accommodation option born from 50 years of experience in mountain tourism. Today, you'll find a SkiStar Lodge in Lindvallen, Hundfjället, Trysil, Hemsedal, and Vemdalen. We're also planning a SkiStar Lodge in Åre. Something that Mats and Erik could not have imagined on their maiden journey to Sälen was the future's digital opportunities within experience marketing and retail. SkiStar.com would become one of the largest booking platforms in Scandinavia with a turnover of SEK 2.7 billion. The site would go on to become one of Sweden's largest e-players in the outdoor tourism category.
Both the online site and the physical stores in the destinations now provide guests with all the services and conditions needed for top-notch experience on and around the mountain. With our own brand, EQPE, we've enabled more people to buy good-quality, versatile clothing at reasonable prices and using smart solutions. In just a few years, EQPE has grown to a turnover of SEK 50 million across Europe. Active relaxation are, and have always been, a core part of SkiStar's offerings and sustainability efforts from the early days to present day. In 2021, we launched our year-round venture, and SkiStar's operations went from being a winter-only operation to a year-round experience. We turned both the skiing and the mountain experience as a whole into something new, exciting, and attractive for both existing and new audiences.
We're also on track to offer even more sustainable mountain experiences with the goal of halving our overall climate footprint by 2030. The track we pursue alongside our guests so that we can all do our bit to keep our winters white in the future. When it comes to our destinations, we are community builders, creating jobs for thousands every year. We're one of Scandinavia's biggest employers of young people, something we're both proud of and grateful for. We're also proud of how far we've come, and we're looking forward to continuing our journey towards all the opportunities and experiences the future has to offer. Active relaxation has probably never been more current than it is today.
Yes, as you can see, it was a long movie, but we really wanted to show the heritage which we also are extremely proud of, and also what Erik and Mats accomplished when they drove up to Sälen 48 years ago, actually. I will start to talk a little bit about our market and the market we are into. In 2020, when we started to make a strategy update, we also decided to make a lot of surveys about what's going on, what trends are going on in the market. We have continued, of course, to look into those trends. If you summarize those trends, we have put it into four blocks. If you start with the sustainable travel, we can see that more and more of our guests really want to have sustainable travel.
That's actually from the booking situation into their arrival at the destination and also how they act within the destination as such. They also would like to be this digital physical experience, meaning that they both want to have this digital experience when they book the holidays, etc., but also when they arrive to the destination, they want to have the personal meetings. They want to have both and. Both and is also in the polarization. You can say you both want to be connected and disconnected. You can clearly see a trend about how people want to live their life, during the holidays.
And that could almost summarize in the box down to the right, actually, where you look into the active vacation because this almost summarizes everything and what's going on in this business at the moment because people really want to be connected and disconnected. And when they are disconnected, they want to be in the area, around, or surroundings where we have a great point of view with our destinations situated where they are. You can clearly see that people want to live a more healthy lifestyle. They want to have an active holiday, and they also want to travel together with friends and families. If you look into this industry as such, also, it's quite interesting to see how the industry had a very, very clear path of growth.
Then we came into the pandemic, and it almost became a V curve, and then it took off again. Here we're talking about flights, we're talking about hotels, we're talking about restaurants, etc. So the business as such is growing tremendously, actually. If you look into the cargo, it's 45% growth after the pandemic, which is, of course, significant numbers. This industry also employs a lot of people. Actually, you heard on this movie we just launched that we employ a lot of people every year. We employ 3,000 young people. Some of them had the first job. The first job is it for many in this industry. It's actually one of the four large industries, if you say, in Sweden as such, where you can really make sure that it provides jobs.
When it provides jobs, it also provides taxes for the municipalities, etc. We have a big impact on the small resorts where we are a large actor today. When we read newspapers and look at media, we can hear about the climate changes and we see them also impacting us almost every day. For us, of course, we are on one hand worried because the climate change is going on. On the other hand, we are quite comfortable if I say that word because our five winter destinations are based on a geographical point which will not have a huge impact on our business.
Niclas will go through that later on and show what's happening when we are discussing and meeting experts within this climate change industry and also see that actually it will be a positive benefit for SkiStar what's going on in this world right now. I must highlight also, if you look into Science Based Targets, we have actually got approved Science Based Targets. We are the only one in this industry which has got approval of Science Based Targets. We are also having this, with Scope 3 with the guests' travel to and from our resorts. Very impacted, very important to have that to bear in mind. You know, SkiStar, without, being, too, like Tarzan and saying, "Wow, we are the best," but we are actually one of the largest players in the world. We are number four if you count in, turnover.
If I clean out the amusement park from Compagnie des Alpes, I actually think we have the third place globally from a turnover point of view, but if I then start to zoom in from a Scandinavian point of view and see where we are in Scandinavia, we are actually a quite large player. We have 44% market, and Scandinavia is our market, and then if I look into how large are we in Scandinavia then. Yeah, our five destinations, winter destinations, they are the top five, and I think this is very important to bear in mind that we have an unmatchable position within Scandinavia, and if you look into number six, you can look into length of groomed slopes, and you can see number six has 23, our number five has 54.
Just to give a perspective, actually, that we have a great position within Scandinavia. Our customer is mainly Scandinavian families who travel with children, and also this is, like I say, the largest customer group. Sweden is the largest market. We have a lot of Danes, and especially this year we can see a huge growth of Danes. Of course, Norwegians, many of them have cabins, but also more of them are coming as tourists as such. We can see an increase of international guests, and they are coming now more and more. We had a lot of international guests coming up to 2019-2020. During the pandemic, it dropped, but now they are coming back, starting to come back again.
70% of our guests again travels with family, and eight out of 10 say they have got a memorable mountain experience when visiting us. And also what we haven't spoken about so much early, we did it in this Q4 report this year, like a teaser for what we are going to present today, is the average spend from our customers. And the average spend is SEK 17,000, and Mathias will also go through different countries, different target groups, etc., and what it means to us, and also a possibility to even get higher and more growth going forward. So now I will leave that side and go in a little bit into our strategic framework. And this picture I've shown for some of you the last three years because this is really telling where we are coming from and where we are heading.
We are going from a company who wanted to expand in Europe to decide to focus on Scandinavia. Scandinavia is our market. We are going from alpine skiing to actually work with a year-round business. We are going from this lift and technical focus into really focus on the customer and the guest. We're going from being, when I was small and a young kid, we stayed in a small cabin on quite far from the slope. Today, our guests, they want to stay better away than in home. The first thing they book when they go out to SkiStar.com is they want to really look into if they're close to the slopes, is it a ski-in, ski-out accommodation, is there a fireplace, is there a sauna. Those beds we have today in our system.
We have had more beds before, but we decided to be quite strict with the beds we have had. And Mathias will talk about that later as well. Last but not least, we have been very good in producing snow in a sustainable way. However, today we continue, of course, with that, but we even put in a sustainability strategy where we want to secure that we will have a sustainable and memorable mountain experience all year round and forever. Our strategic framework, I want to show this picture because it tries to explain the two main areas. It's the mountain operations where Niclas will go through it in detail later on. It is the property development. Lars-Göran will go through that in detail, but just to give you the framework. And then around this, we say, okay, what is our foundations?
And then we say, yeah, business development is important for us. Digitalization is important for us. The people and culture is important for us. The safety and security as well as then the sustainability. So those are the rooms. And if you look into the mountain operations, yeah, mountain operations actually consist of many things. So this is everything around accommodation, restaurants, services. Services could be bed linen, it could be insurance, it could be cleaning as an example. Then we have the retail side. You saw it on the movie. Myself is wearing the EQPE clothing here today. You can see it outside as well. We are a large player in retail today. We had a quite impressive growth in turnover in our retail business, both online and offline. We have, of course, a big rental.
We not only rent out skis, we rent out bikes, we rent out clothing. This is an important growing business. And then, of course, we have our passes. We have in the summer, we have Activity Passes, in the winter SkiPasses as well. We are working with guides or instructors previously. If you look into the property development, I'm not, or we have not spoken so much about our property development in the past. Today we will actually go in depth around property development because this is a very important part of SkiStar in the new strategy because all property development must contribute to SkiStar's core, the operations. And here we have first a lot of land, and we will talk about the land today.
We have, when we have this land and we want to make acquisition of land and properties, of course, you need to have a department working with project development as well, also securing the + 120 different types of properties we have within SkiStar to handle them and taking care of them. And that could be everything from hotel to restaurants to other buildings. Then, of course, we also have a huge department, not huge, but a large department working with rental and services for the mountain accommodations. When we worked with business development in the past, when Erik and Mathias drove up to Sälen and they bought this lift and the ski lift, then they started, yeah, then we need to have ski rental, then we needed to get ski school, yeah, maybe we should open a restaurant. Things just happened.
But today we have a holistic business development point of view. We work strategically with business development. And I just picked out three examples. So take EQPE, for example. 2019, when this was founded during the World Championships in Åre, we decided to launch a winter collection. The turnover became SEK 8 million, and we were happy. Today, EQPE is a fantastic range, and it's had a turnover of SEK 50 million last year. And this year we are planning to grow it even more. And we have good people working with it, both inside, but also as brand ambassadors, like Charlotte Kalla, Nils van der Poel, etc. Stockholm Hammarbybacken was a place where we were going for skiing maybe five, six weeks a year.
Now we have all year-round facilities in Stockholm, Hammarbybacken, a fantastic place in the middle of Stockholm where you can do a lot of different types of activities. In 2019-2020, we had 5.1 ski days. Today we are going from ski days, which is an international way of counting number of ski days, to Activity Days. So we talk about both ski and activity, but in combination, these have had a quite big growth, up to 5.9 million. Digitalization. SkiStar had a CEO in 2000. His name Thorvald Sverdrup, and Thorvald, he was the one who registered SkiStar.com. I don't know if he understood how smart he was actually, but when he launched SkiStar or made SkiStar.com happen, I think this was the foundation of our digitalization and the digital start of our world.
Today we have approached to really engage with customers and also where they prefer to interact. We also have a guiding principle that this should be simple, it should be satisfied, and also both accessible and also security when we're talking about the data world today. Of course, the goal for us to be the leader here. Like you heard in the movie, today we have 33 million sessions, which is, it's a large number. This is our platform, and we own this distribution channel. People sometimes asking us, why are you not going for booking, etc.? Yeah, because then we need to leave 30% of the revenues away, and we actually keep those 30% in our books. We are 1.8 million SkiStar members, which is a really high number, and we interact with those customers quite often.
We are really glad that this digitalization has helped us to have 76% of all SkiPasses purchased digitally and 92% of our customers doing a digital check-in today. Our foundation and really proud of our people. Like I show you, the guests are saying eight out of 10 are satisfied, and that is because of our fantastic people. Actually, eight out of 10 of our coworkers are saying that they love to come to work every day. That's also a very good example of the foundation of SkiStar. Sustainability is a very important part, and I will soon come back to the goals around sustainability and also the safe and secure. Today, the picture here is showing some actual people working in the slopes, securing that our guests can have a safe day in the slopes.
That means that if there is not like this beautiful weather, maybe it has been snowing the night, so there's some avalanche risk, and then they go out and secure that there is no avalanche risk for the guests. They're securing that the slopes are safe, and if an accident happens, we have a lot of people working in the slopes taking care of our guests. So, also I said to some of you, when we had coffee break before we started off today, I'm really glad that we are opening up for new financial targets, and, and Martin will go through them in detail later on. So, so, like a teaser then is that we are now going for organic growth, and the organic growth for us is actually 6%. And that means that we clean out for any acquisitions or currency effect, so 6% growth.
We will also show you today how this has been historically, but we believe that this is a forward-leaning goal actually to keep 6%. We also in this release this morning tried to clarify the gap between previous 22% margin down to 18%. Actually, this is a calculation which we have tried to be clear about, but this also when we add this hotel business, 18% also become a quite offensive goal actually. Martin will go through that as well. You have seen that we have been on a quite investment-heavy journey the last two years, and we believe also by having a good control now of also our net debt dividend, it also provides a long-term strategy for us to have a good control of our debt, going forward.
And last but not least, we have also become a little bit more flexible in our dividend. Instead of just saying 50% and more, we say 40%-60% depending on the result for the year. Here I would like to just go through shortly within our sustainability targets because I believe that this is very important for us. So first of all, we are talking about Activity Days, and we are talking about 7 million Activity Days. That means that we need to go actually from today's level up to 7 million. And where should we grow? Yeah. Today these guys will show you how we will grow in the winter side and how we will grow in the off-winter season, meaning year-round.
We believe that year-round will help us to grow this up to the seven million Activity Days in total, which is of course super inspiring. The next one is that we would like to reduce the climate impact by 50%, and we will continue to work with different types of activities to do that. We have done a fantastic job within operations. Especially last year we had a huge drop in impact since we put in HVO in all our grooming machines. Then you can say, okay, is it worth it? Because if you look into the prices of HVO versus normal diesel, it's actually cost us SEK 25 million a year on our P&L, but we say yes, this is important for the environment and we don't go back to diesel. This is, I think it's an important message from us also to the market.
We believe in this and also, like you saw in the movie, we are continuing to develop different types of electrification within grooming machines, in scooters, etc. But also a lot of other things. And both Niclas and Lars-Göran will talk about that later on. Last but not least, I believe this dialogue we need to have an interaction with authorities. I met the minister for transportation and infrastructure a couple of weeks ago because we spoke about the challenges with the railway and the difficulties and challenges our customers have to book the tickets with the SJ in Sweden as an example. We spoke about the road, and next week we will be part of a big meeting with a lot of different stakeholders talking about what's going on and needs to be taken care of infrastructure as such.
We as a player have a large impact on actually what's going on in this, say, infrastructure discussions in Sweden. We also believe that, and also Norway for sure, but the industry has been not taken into consideration when you do the big plans for how infrastructure will look like. Here we have a lot of come and support with for building up those plans. By that, Emelie, I would like to go through. It has been a lot of information and a lot of.
Take a breath. It's okay.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Not too many because I'm going to ask you some questions.
Yeah.
I would like to start with the revised financial targets as you just previously mentioned. 6% organic growth, 18% margin, and below 2.5 in debt.
Your growth and margin, you said it's quite offensive, the 18% for example, and the six years percent, organic growth.
Yeah.
But I don't think it's too far-fetched to say it's quite equal to where you're coming from.
Yeah. If we start with the 6% growth then, the previous goal was 4% + inflation. And if you look into how the inflation was, up to a year and a half ago, I think this goal was quite okay, but we haven't spoken so much about that goal as such. If you look into how we have delivered up to that goal previously, Martin will go through in detail, but what has happened is that it has been cleaned out for this change in accounting principles, cleaned out for St. Johann, cleaned out for some years back. We are showing a growth of 5.6%.
That means that six is a quite aggressive goal because during some of those years in the beginning we had a quite heavy increase on prices, for example, on ski pass, etc. Now we come up with a new baseline and we will grow six from the baseline. We believe that this is quite. I will not use the word aggressive, but it's quite a tough goal actually. If we talk about the margin, we cleaned out again also, clean, clean, clean, clean. We come up to 18. On top of that, we added the hotel division, which is actually getting SEK 500 million in turnover, but with much less margin than we have had on the other businesses. Again, 18 is a quite forward-leaning goal.
I think everybody's kind of keen on hearing Martin's presentation.
Yes.
This is, at the end of the day, Cliffhanger. Okay. Just one more question before I let you go. You're into year three of turning fro m winter to year-round.
Yeah.
But still summer or the other seasons than winter are just a fraction of your sales by now. Isn't it going quite slow?
This is the question I didn't want to have because that's why I'm here. The guys, you know me in this room, and I think Jens who is sitting here as well, he after the first summer season, he was a little bit disappointed and I was also disappointed. I think it's going to be faster. But what I believe is that, not believe, what has happened is that it takes time to build. I'm an impatient person. I wanted this to go faster.
However, I believe that you need to learn how to operate the summer business before you can really say it works. And now we have just finished the third summer. And I must say I'm really happy to see that our things we did this summer with lowering the prices with 40% on these Activity Passes and so on has actually showed it works. So we have found a model how to charge and also how to get volume because we need volume. And now we will utilize our customer database we have to get people up and also have a very not only memorable mountain experience, also have a quite affordable summer holidays because for us this will become extremely affordable if you compare prices, what it costs for a week, go biking, hiking, etc., versus go for an amusement park or travel outbound, etc.
So again, to answer your question, yes, it has maybe taken some time, but we also invested. We didn't have any activities. We had a lift, yes. We didn't have any trails. We didn't have any coasters. We didn't have any bikes to rent out the first year, etc. So yeah, it has taken a little bit, maybe too long time, but I believe that we are on the right path going forward. So long answer, but it's, it's important for all of you guys hearing this. We really believe, and also the seven million Activity Days is also coming. A lot of them are coming from the summer holidays.
We have to stop there for now, Stefan, to let the others also speak as well.
So Niclas then.
Niclas is up.
As you showed, Stefan, the mountain operations, the first of two of the business areas, and we will hear from Niclas Sjögren Berg , Chief Operating Officer.
Thank you very much. Niclas Sjögren , as Emelie said, is my name. Started in this company quite long ago, 1989. Was 14 years in Sälen before I moved up to Åre, took care of Åre and Vemdalen. And since three years, from now, I've been the Chief Operating Officer. This is mountain operations. One of the most unique things about SkiStar. The fantastic thing about this is the Activity Pass, SkiPass that we have. We're going from SkiPass to Activity Pass. That's the engine of the company.
It doesn't matter if we have 10,000 people inside our slopes or we have 50,000 people inside our slopes because the whole thing is to just get more, yes, because we don't have more costs than we use this. The other thing is accommodations, hotel and lodges, restaurants, and services, which actually are in the same package. We don't have to own all the beds, but we have to rent them out. We have around 36,500 beds, which we rent out. And the main goal for us is to fill all those beds because if we have a cabin with six beds and it's only four people, then it's two empty beds, two cold beds, and we don't sell any SkiPasses, we don't rent out anything. So that's not a good thing for us.
The best thing for us is actually to have two people in every bed because then they are perhaps three people when they're coming back next year. Then we have the rental and retail, retail, which is very connected to each other. This is our shops in the best location, close to the slopes, close to the places where we have the cabin, the lodges, and the really good thing. We know that people who rent their skis, who rent their bikes, they have a little better experience than people who bring their own because they got new sharpened edges, they got waxed skis, they got fixed bikes, and everything works together. The other thing is our guides, and quite small business for us today. We can grow in that market.
But we know when people use a guide or a ski instructor or a bike instructor, they have a better experience and they intend to come back more often to us. And why is that? I started as a ski instructor and I know when I met them, they had no expectations more than learn to ski. I showed them the best slopes despite of the weather. I showed them the best restaurants or not showed them maybe. I talked about the best restaurants and the best nightclubs so you can sell the resort without that they think that you're a salesman. So that's a really, really important thing. As Stefan said, we are a big player in Scandinavia. We have the three largest ski resorts in Sweden and we have the two largest ski destinations in Norway.
And we also have a fantastic product, as Stefan showed you and we saw on the film, is Hammarbybacken. There was a saying a couple of years ago when we were competitors all here before SkiStar started, and that was actually "train in Sälen and ski in Åre." And that was something when I worked in Sälen, I didn't like to hear, of course. But for us now in SkiStar, it's perfect. So this is a life cycle when you talk about skiing. This is a life cycle that you actually can start in Hammarbybacken, really easy slope, very close to the market. And then you go on your first vacation, you go to Sälen and you train skiing. When you're feeling now it's time to move forward, then you go to Vemdalen or to Trysil, and then you maybe end up in Åre, Hemsedal with your friends.
It's a little bit longer slopes. It's a little bit steeper. It's more like the Scandinavian Alps. And then you probably get family, you get kids, and then you start all over again. You go back to Sälen, you go to Vemdalen, and the circle is all around there. So this is a perfect match for us, all those destinations. The other thing that's important is that they are located in different parts of Sweden and Norway. And we have climates and we have weathers. Climate is a very long, long circle and weather is short circles. We know for one year to the other, the winds come from the west or the winds come from the east actually. And the weather system follows the winds. And if the winds come from the west, Åre got a lot of snow and Hemsedal got a lot of snow.
Hemsedal always got a lot of snow, but then Vemdalen, Sälen and Trysil, when the weather systems come from the east, then they got a lot of snow. It means that we spread our risks. If we have a season with bad snow condition in one destination, it's almost 100% sure that it's better on another destination. We can move the guests around. This is actually figures, and why we are showing skier days is it's an international measurement when we compare skier days and it's compared destination to each other. The one skier day is a day pass. A week pass is, yeah, we have a little longer week in our resorts. Most of them have now is 68 days, and then also, a season pass counted as 21 days.
And you do that in the States, you do that in Europe, and you do that in Sweden and Norway. We have been in this business for 48 years. Activity Days in summer, we have been in three years. Then we have had some summer business in both Sälen and Åre a couple of years ago, but not in the strategic ways that we do now. The number of beds, as I told you, was 36,500 controlled by us. And that's, you should see now it's very, very small here, but that's about 57,300 other, or total warm beds. So we have also the 60% of the beds in our destinations. And that's really, really important, as I told you, because we want to fill the beds so we can sell our other products.
Those figures here, number of slopes, number of lifts, it's maybe the first thing people look at when they're choosing a ski resort. They want to see the variety of lifts, the variety of pists. They want to see, you can put another list here with the kilometers of slopes and everything. So this is actually really big when you look into Scandinavia. How should we improve this? We have been in this business for 48 years and we always say we can do better. These are three of the strategies that we are working with in the future. We want to be a full service provider for all year-round mountain experience. Mathias will also talk about that more later. We want to increase capacity and weatherproof destination, and we want to secure sustainable future mountain experience.
I will go into this more in detail, those three, and I start with a full service provider. We are in a big transformation right now. We're talking about going from winter to all year-round. And just to state that all year-round, that isn't the same today as 365 days. That's important to know because now when we're talking about the summer season or the non-snow season, if I say so, spring, summer, autumn, it's around 80-90 days. The busiest part, of course, is from the school holidays when the school stops in the middle of June till it starts in the middle of August. But it's possible for the future to have activities those 365 days, but now we are not talking about that. How can we do this? We can use current infrastructure.
Stefan, named here and talked about earlier, and you saw what's happened in Hammarbybacken and now in our destination. Yes, we have made some investments, but we are now on the level for the non-snow-free season that we don't have to do more investments for the future. If we had to do new investments for the future, it means that then we have a lack of capacity. We are not there yet. So what we have done now, we are going to live on for many years forward, but we have to take those investments in the beginning. When we're talking about current infrastructure, we have all the lifts ready. We have the mountains there. We have the cabins there. We have the restaurants there. We have the shops there. We have the rentals there.
If we hadn't had that, it would have been impossible to do what we are doing now. And that means also it's almost impossible for anyone else to start with that because the starting costs are so high. And to use our resources that we have in place, it's much better if we can use them not all year-round, but those 90 days compared to + 90 days compared to those 150 days today. Two main things who are important for us is actually to increase capacity of weatherproof our destinations. Because you saw the film, you didn't see it rain, you didn't see it blow, you didn't see it snow. Everything is perfect, but that's not the reality. It's more like when that happened, yes, and then you put out all the pictures on your Instagram and Facebook or to let the whole world know actually.
But we have to secure that if you are a guest in our destination, you have the same experience even if the weather is working against us instead of with us. It means that you have to have lifts who can run when the winds are high. Maybe you don't come up to the same places, but you can still ski through the whole area. So that's important. When there are a lot of people, like there are, for example, on Christmas, New Year, the holidays and Easter, it could sometimes be long queues, especially when the wind is high. And then you can also move those people through the areas without building new lifts, just to tell them how they should move, where should you ski, what should you do. So we can do that in another way. Yeah. Climate change, as Stefan said, is happening.
It's really important and a no-brainer for us to work with those things. The operations today, after what we made with the HVO100 on our groomers, is only 1% of the total in our company. So we have done something very good there. We want to be energy self-sufficient by 2030 with building a lot of things in this area. We want to be fossil-free by electrification in our fleet. Today, 91% already are fossil-free, but we will move from HVO to electrification. It's happening a lot in those areas right now, and we are there together with our suppliers to test things because they really want to test things with SkiStar. They know we are a reliable partner in this. This is actually our sustainability roadmap. This is what we are doing now and where we will be in the future.
We know that we have to make more snow production in the future. That's the scientists, what they tell us. It's going to be more periods with zero degrees or warmer during the winter. It will be more less cold periods and they will be shorter. So it's very important for us that we can produce the snow for the snow production in a shorter time. But we have all the water permits already in place. So that's a good thing to know because that's very hard to get today during all the environmental thing and everything. We want to see that we have the right amount of snow in our slopes. That's important because if we have three meters in one slope, it doesn't matter because no one knows that. If we have 50 cm, that's enough.
And that means if we can measure that in real time with our snow groomers, with this positioning system, then we can move the snow instead of producing new snow. And that technique is quite new and it's growing all the time. And we're preparing to get the slopes better prepared for us so we don't need that much snow actually. But in the future, what we will do then? Solar power, one fantastic thing. Energy storage, charging point, distributing, hydro power, it's there. And it doesn't mean that it should be a lot of investment for us, but it could mean a lot of business opportunities also. As I say, no snow, no show. Very, very important for us to do this with snow production for alpine skiing. We have been working the last five years actually with SMHI and NMHI. It's the Meteorological Institute in Sweden and Norway.
They are actually the scientists there, our guarantee for what we are saying are the right thing actually. As I told you, shorter cold periods, we need more snow. Maybe we need up to 100% more snow in some of our destinations. Maybe not in Hemsedal and in Åre because they're located on a higher level and you know the temperature drops one degree every 100 meters coming up. But I think we will be there also on those destinations. And that's in 2050. We have the water permits, water rights and the permits in place. We're working with the expansion of new snow systems all the way. So we will have that in all our slopes. And as I said, we want the right amount in the right place with good groundwork, the GPS and snow measurement.
And then this is a saying from the scientists and this is a saying especially from the media that seasons will increase by 2070 actually with 20 days in the beginning and 20 days in the end. And if you have 150 days of skiing and 40 days will go away, then of course that would be affecting our business. But is that true? And I will show you a graph how we see on this because this is what science has told us and what we are looking into 2070. If it's happened 2050 or 2080, no one knows, but it's happening, no doubt about that. When we look into skier days in our destination, we can start in this place because if we lose 20 days, the three least weeks of the season, that's 2% of the total skier days.
But actually, now we don't close here because of the skier days because of the lack of snow. We can ski about here in May in our destination, but it's the lack of interest because it's green back home here in green back home, green here in Stockholm or in Oslo or anything. It's like you're playing golf and you're playing football, and here in the beginning, it's 1%. So those 20 + 20 days, nothing here and 1% of the total skier days here, and we have some cost here also, I can promise you, so this could actually be an opportunity for us, and I think we in the northern hemisphere are quite happy. I told you as I started as a ski instructor in 1989 in Sälen. My main goal was all the time to give that little extra.
We call it TLX, the little extra to our guests. To see the guest before the guest sees us. Because if we do a good job, even if I work as a lift attendant, if I work as a ski instructor, if I work in the ski rental or in the reception or whatever it is, if I can put or place guests so they are satisfied or very satisfied, they are in the loyalty box and they will come back to us and they will talk to all their friends about this when they're coming home. So it's really important and we recruit our members. 65% of all our season staff come back and we recruit them not through competence. The most important thing is the right values, the right attitudes, the right behavior.
Because if they have that with them, then we teach them how to do and they give you a fantastic experience. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Niclas. I only have one question for you actually before we let Mathias up. Because you said that one of your strategic initiatives for the mountain operations is to increase capacity and weatherproof. And as a company, you have previously communicated about reducing costs and looking over what you're spending on. Don't you need to spend in order to do that initiative?
We need to spend, but you can say that in two ways. If we exploit a new ski area with new lifts, with new slopes, with new snowmaking, that costs money, of course. And we are going to do that. But that's not the whole thing.
Because with the techniques today, and we can see that some of our areas are not that occupied like some of the most popular, how can we move guests there? It's not only by building new lifts. It's not only by building new snowmaking systems. It could be a lot of other things. Mathias has a fantastic tool, our SkiStar app, which can provide guests with information. The guests, okay, they like to ski where a lot of people are, but some of them also want to go where they are alone. Then we can point out those. We're just in the beginning of that area. So yes, something costs, but out of things that we can do to better improve our product is almost cost-f ree.
Thank you, Niclas, for now. We'll continue this discussion later on. You made a perfect segue to the next speaker.
We can call it part two of the mountain operations. It is Mathias Lindström, Commercial Director. Mathias, please tell us about this fantastic tool you have.
Thank you very much, Emelie. And good afternoon, everybody. My name is Mathias Lindström. I'm the Commercial Director for SkiStar, and I've been with the company since 2007. I will present to you how we work to win the customer, how can we maximize volume into our destinations, and how can we increase our revenue streams. To achieve that, there are three main focus areas for us where we need to be successful. First of all, we need to work in an effective way with our communication to create awareness and interest to our brand and products. Secondly, we need to take control over own distribution and drive traffic into our sales platforms.
Finally, we need to secure commercial beds and also secure early occupancy. If we look a little bit further into those three key areas and start with communication, we work today with what we call the One Brand strategy. That means that all our communication should drive traffic into the brand of SkiStar and build the brand of SkiStar to create awareness and also drive traffic into our most important sales platform, SkiStar.com. We work with different kinds of communications, everything from PR, earned media, to marketing campaigns through Europe. We are active today on 16 different markets, and we create 33 million sessions into SkiStar.com. But the most fundamental communication is our customer database. We have today 1.8 million customers or members within our database. That is the most cost-effective way of communicating and bringing traffic. Why is it so important to control own distribution?
I should say that's a key topic for all kinds of businesses today. The answer is customer data. When a customer books through our channels, we get the possibility to collect data, try to know as much as possible around our customers. When we drive them into SkiStar.com, we can create sales. If we compare that to external distribution channels, take for example an OTA. They will collect all the data. They will of course give us a booking number, but we have to pay 15%-20% commission for that booking number. It's extremely important for us to collect the data. Today, we are selling around 95% of our total revenue through own distribution channels. 70% of that is digital sales. Why don't we have 100%?
At some source markets, international source markets, we need some external help from agents and different kinds of ferry lines, bus transports, etc. We need to complement our own distribution. As I said, we have 1.8 million members, and we have been very successful in building up this database during years. We can communicate with those 1.8 million customers. We can send out a mail to them when we are sitting here actually. If we can bring them into SkiStar.com, we can start to convert that traffic into sales. What we also know is that members have a 38% higher average spend than a non-member customer. We always try to convert a non-member customer to a member customer. In the long run, we want to create a long relationship with those members.
We want them to come back from year to year, as Niclas said, start in Sälen, then continue through Vemdalen, Åre, Hemsedal and so on. And that gives us a customer lifetime value, which is really high. Bookable beds. SkiStar has today around 36,000-37,000 beds within our booking system every week. Out of those 36,000, SkiStar owns 10,000 of them. And of those 10,000, 4,000 are hotels and lodge beds. The other 26,000 beds are external beds, which are bookable through our booking system. As you can see in this graphic, we have parts or periods during the season. This is the occupancy last winter. And we have parts where we are not fully booked. We can increase volume in January and March and April, but we also have periods where we actually are fully booked.
During winter holidays, Christmas and New Year, we don't have enough beds during those periods. So we need to increase commercial beds. And how do we do that? We control today around 60% of commercial beds at our destinations. We can increase there. We can take market shares from other actors. But we also have something what we call cold beds, 160,000 cold beds, second home beds, which are not being rented out. If we can offer those bed owners great offers, discounts, etc., if they rent out their beds through our system, we can increase the number of commercial beds. And that is very important. This is SkiStar's customer journey or our value chain. Most of our bookings start actually with accommodation.
Our customers want to secure a bed out of their preferences, how they want to stay, what kind of facilities they want to have in their accommodation and so on, and that customer journey can actually start up to 18 months before arrival. They want to secure their bed. After that, we are trying to sell all our relevant products in advance before they arrive at our destination, and this is done through data knowledge and marketing automation. Out of what we know, we start sending mails, etc., trying to sell different kinds of services, insurance, cleaning, etc. We continue selling ski schools, bike schools, guiding, and then of course our passes, SkiPass and Activity Passes, and finally rental and retail, so in the end, before they arrive, we are trying to sell all relevant products. Today, we're selling actually 81% of total revenue in advance.
That is great for our cash flow, but also they have a new wallet when they arrive at our destinations, so they can start spending again, hopefully. We still have some sales at our destination, and that is a lot linked to our retail business and our sports shops at our destinations. So what will we focus on for the coming years? What are our key topics? Well, I should say we have four topics to focus on to create increased revenues. First of all, dynamic price model. I will come back to that. We need, as I said, an increased number of commercial beds. We need to increase the number of guests on a yearly basis. We are a volume-driven business, and we need to increase average spend per customer.
If we look into those topics and start with dynamic price model, we want to step by step go towards a fully integrated dynamic price model. What does that mean? It means that prices can change on a daily basis, actually, due to supply and demand, but also how the customer acts when they buy and what they buy, what kind of segments we are selling to. Today, we are working dynamically with our accommodation and almost with our SkiPasses, but we want to have dynamic prices for all our products. To be able to do that, we need to collect data and link more data sources so we can do a lot of predictions and forecasts, because that's the foundation for our dynamic price model. We also look a lot into market segmentation. You can have different price models if it's a B2B business or a B2C business.
And we also have different price models when it comes to our winter season or summer season. Then in the end, of course, it's about maximizing all prices due to what we believe the customers are willing to pay for. Something we also put a lot of effort into is payment methods, because the last years, actually payment methods are a critical part to win the customer. So we are always looking to have the right payment methods for our customers. That was pricing. Now we will look a little bit into how we will bring in more volume to our destinations. And we start a little bit with our winter season. As Niclas said earlier, we are improving our destinations and products all the time. And that gives us the opportunity to create great offers, better offers than our competitors, and try to win potential customers in the market.
We have actually a huge potential when it comes to the international market, because we have a lot of skiers in the U.K., in Germany, in Denmark, but a lot of them still go south to the Alps. We have improved our product a lot for an international market the last years. The accessibility is much, much better today. We have great accommodation, and above all, we have snow. So there we have huge potential to win international markets. And we can see that today a lot of international guests are actually coming to us. And what we also can do is to continue working with data knowledge so we can be more specific in our offers to every single customer we have, instead of working with mass communication, sending out one offer to all customers.
So we still can increase volume, even if it's a mature market during our winter season. If we look a little bit about our summer season or non-winter season, our main goal is there to increase volume. We have been working with the summer for three years, and we need to increase volume. We have increased the Activity Days, and we have invested in new products which we actually can create great packages. What we also need to do is to utilize the strength of our database. We have a lot of guests coming during the winter season. If we can get those winter customers coming twice instead of one time, that will have a huge effect on our summer volume. As it is today, there are only 3% acting like that.
But if we, through communication, offers, etc., can increase that number, that will have an effect on the summer volume. And of course, we also need to change our way of communicating. We have been talking about winter for 48 years and communicating winter. We need to change that, talking year-round, our year-round business. We need to change customer behavior, actually going south during the summer and going north and have an active holiday with us. So we need to change our communication. The last part of our key initiatives for the future is average spend. We have been quite successful in increasing average spend over time. This is a result of pricing, but also a result of our value chain or customer journey within SkiStar.com. And we have an increased number of products into our basket.
Today we have an average spend of around 17,000 SEK when they buy accommodation and 5,000 SEK without accommodation. So how can we increase that? Well, those graphics show average spend per different source markets. The red bar shows a booking with accommodation, the gray bar without accommodation, and the blue line is volume of unique buying customers. I will explain this in detail. There are big differences between different source markets. If we compare a British customer to a Swedish customer, the British customer spends much more on average. Why? That's because if we look here, they put more products into the shopping basket. A British customer puts three products in general in their basket, while the Swedish customer puts 2.2, so almost one more product in the basket.
If you compare it to a Norwegian customer, they put almost one and a half products more in the shopping basket, and that affects the average spend, so if we can improve the volume of international guests, that will affect a lot on average spend, but also, it can affect a Swedish customer or a Norwegian customer to buy more products. That will also have a huge effect, so we need different strategies: increase volume on the international market and increase the number of products for a Scandinavian customer, a Swedish or a Norwegian customer. A little bit the same, but here we look into average spend when it comes to our destinations, but also when it comes to different segments. I will explain. Here we have Trysil and Hemsedal, and here we have our Swedish destinations. Our Norwegian destinations have a much higher average spend than our Swedish destinations.
Why? Because of the amount of international guests. Our Norwegian destinations, they have a higher number of international guests, but they also have longer stays, weekly stays. If we compare it to Åre, which has the lowest average spend, it depends on, first, they have a lot of weekend guests, fewer days at the destination, which affects the average spend but Åre also has a completely different segmentation mix, because on this side, we have different segmentation groups and those three high red bars are segment groups traveling with kids, families. They are extremely important for SkiStar because they have almost double average spend than segments traveling without kids, so it's critical for SkiStar to win the families. Should we stop selling to the other segments? Absolutely no, because the families can just travel at some periods, so we need to fill up volume with other segments.
The families are very, very important for SkiStar. Finally, what can we do more to increase average spend? As we speak, we are working with a project creating a new digital sales platform where SkiStar will start selling external products, products which are not operated by SkiStar. This will be a commission-based business model. We will start selling snowmobiles, dog sledding. Later on, you can book a table and so on, because there are a lot of activities going on at our destinations where we are not involved today. We will take a commission of 15%-20% by selling those products, and then there will be an operator taking care of the customers.
By doing this, we see the potential of increasing our revenue, but also we will simplify for our customers, because they always want to have one-stop shopping booking platforms, simplify the way of selling products, so it's both, hopefully, a win for us, external operators, and the customer. We will step by step launch this with a start now for this winter season, and then we will continue adding products to this mo del. That was the last slide. Thank you for listening.
Thank you so much, Mathias, and because I think everybody wants a cup of coffee, I'm just going to ask you one question, and that is the targets you have of both increasing volume, numbers of guests, and increased average spend. Couldn't you argue you have a conflict here between quantity and quality?
No, I don't think so, because it depends on what season we are talking about.
When it comes to summer season, our main focus is to increase volume. We need to do that. We have huge capacity. We don't have bed problems during summer, so we need to increase volume. Wintertime, we are on a mature market. There we need to work more around the average spend. So it depends on what season we are talking about.
I'll leave you for there, and you'll be back during the extended Q&A. Thank you so much, Mathias. That concludes part one of today. We will take a break now to 3:30 P.M. That is about 10 minutes or 12, something like that. So for you in the room, there's coffee just outside of this room, and you watching online, we're back at 3:30 P.M. I think we're all back in our seats. Hope you've refilled your energy resources for this part two.
And so we will start then with the property development, the other big area within SkiStar, and Lars-Göran Dahl. He is the Director of Property Development.
That's right.
Please.
Lars-Göran Dahl, living in Östersund. I've been working three years in SkiStar. Before that, I had several other jobs in the real estate business, latest from Diös Fastigheter. And I was on SkiStar's board between 2019 and 2020. And then Stefan asked me if I could join him, and I said yes. And I never regret that, because I love skiing and I love real estate, property. Good combination for me. During my session, I will describe how we work with property development. And at the end of my session, I will have some sustainability. Okay. No notes here. I don't know what the problem is. So thank you. Okay. We have four strategic initiatives.
They are developed land areas in-house. We have increased the pace of developed land areas into complete detailed plans, take more active role in strategic development projects, and acquire land and properties. And I'm going to go through each of those steps right now. This is what we call the SkiStar property value chain. This is something special. I'll explain it for you. Each of those steps will increase our earning in each step. And when SkiStar works, we take responsibility for quality and control during the whole process, from raw land to consumer business. This process might take a little longer time, but in the end, the payoff is so much better than the sale of raw land to other developers. And I'm going through the steps right now. Step one is planning for own raw land.
I'm going to come back further on with how much land we have. It takes everything between two to eight years to get raw land into a complete detailed plan. And why is it taking different time? One is the size of the project. The other is how local authorities, how quick they are to process the plan. And there's some difference there I can show. Then we have the sale of planned land. And that we do if we sell the planned land. We often do it to Skiab, which is a JV together with Peab. And Martin is going to tell us a little bit more of that. If we don't sell the raw land, we develop it ourselves. And here is the first cash check to us. The third step is the development of apartments or sale of commercial areas.
Otherwise, this money comes from Skiab into us, or we come to ourselves, depending on what we do in the project ourselves. The fourth step, we have rental income from the beds, as Mathias talked about. We have rental income from the business area. At last, we have a consumption effect of all the products that we are selling on our destination. Let's have a look at a brilliant case, which we can say the property value chain at its best, I would say. Now I will take you on a journey in Sälen, Lindvallen. We have the Gustav area here, which is a very popular area, appreciated by all families and all ages, most ski slopes in the world, I think. We have, 1 km south of Gustav, Söderåsen. An area lacks activity for our guests.
What we are trying to do is transform this, what this looks like at Söderåsen today, to something else, to something from the picture down below here, to increase the number of guests in Sälen, but ski integrated all year-round guest experience. This is the SkiStar property value chain at its best. What are we doing here then? Right now, we are replacing the old lift to a new, modern six-seater lift. In phase one in the property development, we have 69 apartments here, which we are going to build, and they are with a complete detailed plan right now. In the second phase, we have this area down here that we're planning for 10,000 sq m of apartments and 2,000 of commercial areas, with everything, with shops, restaurants, and other stuff. This is the transforming from something quite boring to something much more exciting.
We are going to do some money on that trip, I think. Now we're going into something else, and this is important. We talk about land and square meters. In our annual report, we have information about we have land holding of 52 million sq m . We have that every year. We have also estimated that 50% of this land bank is possible to develop. That's become 2.6 million. Now we do another assumption that out of this 2.6 million, we think that 12% and 2.5 floors lead us to a building area of about 780 sq m . What I'm going to tell you now, that we have right now a process of 432 sq m building in the process. In this, you can see. Here you have the complete detailed plans. You know the planning process with the Lantmäteriet.
Here we have 39,700 completed detailed plans. We have ongoing detailed plans, 233, and possible detailed plans that we have an idea what we should do with this area of 158. Together, they belong to those 432,000 sq m of building area, not land area, remember now. Those building areas are divided to our destination with Sälen in majority. The key in this is to transform the raw land into a complete detailed plan. The value increases as the majority of this land is in ski-out position, ski-out/ski-in position. There are big profit margins by developing raw land into completed detailed plans. As you see, we have estimated the value to the plans in SEK 2,020,000 divided per square meter in building area. This is a process that we will increase the pace in. What do we do to increase the pace?
We have one big thing. We have three things that we do. One is to have ongoing meetings with our local authority. So we push the plans further on in the process. We have more focused organizations that work with this only, nothing else. And we have worked with the same consultants' team in every project, so they know what we want from them. And that's also a way we speed up this transformation. So it's quite a large value we are sitting on here. And it's a real project. A third thing we have a strategic initiative is to take more active role in strategic development projects. In order to finance the ski product some Niclas told us about, we must take part in the income that comes from property development.
In order to develop, other developers have historically been able to benefit from the ski product without skiing being involved in the property development, and that's not okay. SkiStar has further on a long commitment in this destination that not every developer has, so this is super focused from us, and what do we do to make this happen then? Take a greater ownership in the project. I think we have sat in the back seat before. We can't do that. We have to sit in the front seat and drive the car because we are sitting on the ski area. Building relationships with stakeholders. Stefan told about the community and people around this destination. It's super important that we have that, and in this project, we have to do more strategic land acquisition, so we come into those projects. Those trees are important for us to do.
At the right, you see a project which is ongoing. It's Rödkullen, quite controversial. Right now, it's 2,000 beds planning in Rödkullen. And we are working with another partner on this project right now. And we will see what's happened with it. But it's an excellent area. Another strategic initiative is acquiring strategic land areas. And I show you three cases of that. The first one is a land area that we call Cliffhanger in Vemdalsskalet. And we bought this land in 2022. Cliffhanger will increase our ski capacity in Vemdalen with 50%. And we have to do that because it's very crowded in Vemdalsskalet sometimes during the high season. And if we want Vemdalsskalet to grow, this is the only opportunity. Here we're planning for five new lifts.
We are planning for 2,000 new beds in this area and 1,500 sq m of commercial buildings with everything I said earlier, restaurants, ski shops, ski rental, those services. But not only Cliffhanger will also offer a complete new type of skiing, exciting skiing in Scandinavia with those slopes, which is I've been running up this hill, and it's a nice hill. It's going to be good. Other two things. We have bought two strategic properties. It's Platåkåtan in Åre and Hovde Hotel in Vemdalen. And remember, we don't buy things without the meaning. We buy them because we have a contribution to the core business for SkiStar. And that's the main thing for us when we do property development. We always have that in mind, always contributing to the core business. So I won't go into a little bit of the sustainability targets that we have.
We have four targets that we are working with in the property development area. We are saving energy with 4% a year as a goal to 2030. This latest year, we saved 6%. We promote biodiversity throughout all projects. That's a very important thing because if you take Cliffhanger, for example, it's important to work with those things because otherwise we don't get our completed detailed plans. 100% environmentally certified new buildings. Every new project has that certification. We don't build anything without it. Most of our guests are more and more coming with electric car, and they want to charge the car between the cabins. That's why we have a target to have 800 charging points by 2028. Right now, we are approximately 450. This coming winter, I think we go up with 100 more, so 550.
This is the target that we are working on, and it's very important in our development too. As a case, we have talked about solar panels a little bit earlier. But here we have one in Lindvallen that we have. Actually, it's up and running now, and that's fun. For all our targets for SkiStar is to be more self-sufficient with energy. One step was to identify relevant buildings to build solar panels on. Our aim is to build on properties, buildings that use the energy in the building itself because then the payoff and the investment is much better for us. We got much quicker return on investment in that case. And we are right now working on a long-term plan for doing more solar panels in other properties and other destinations. So that is a continued work we have to do. Thank you. That was my last picture.
Thank you. Lars-Göran. And I understand that these projects have to vary some when it comes to time and how much resources you need. Do you have to give a time frame? Do you have some average time it takes for a project to go from a piece of land to a profitable project for you?
As I said earlier, it's a time span between two years to eight. And I think it's, as I said too, it's the design of the project. But one part is very important, how fast is the local authority. And I can assure you that it's different in our destinations. Sälen, good. We can do two, three years or have a little bit left right now.
Do you also have some kind of average value increase for your projects?
We have an average value, and it's very high when we go from raw land because it's very low booked. So it's a good payoff for sure.
So when it comes to, I mean, your part, the property development part isn't as associated maybe with the SkiStar brand as the mountain operations, the skiing or the biking for that part. There was analysis last week that saw risks in your property development area. What risks do you see?
In my area, I don't see so much risk. Almost nothing. But for sure, the real estate business market right now, it's not very sunny days out there. But three things why I can tell you that. That is one, our land bank is very low booked, low values. We have no unsold apartments, and we have no sunk cost in project.
We can't afford to wait till this market will turn. So
Would it be fair then to say that these various local authorities and their way of working, is that your biggest risk, you would say, as far as how fast you can finish a project?
In some cases, yes. They are the biggest risk.
Do you want to say who?
No. Stefan will later.
Okay. Thank you. Lars-Göran. Remember, if you have questions for Lars-Göran, he will be available at the end as well. Now, I think we're eager to hear from the CFO to understand how all this will come together financially as well. There's not going to be a quick question part with Martin before Stefan will come up to do the final remarks. Then we will have the extended Q&A. Martin, and the newest member of the team.
The newest one, yes.
I have met some of you here. Martin Almgren is my name. I have been working for SkiStar now for six months. I've asked a few people around in the business, "How long are you new?" About six months, you are still new. I started as an auditor back in 2002, working for Ernst & Young. Then I have had several positions within finance. One thing that has in my history, which is common, is that I have always been working for entrepreneurial companies: Nefab, Addtech, AddLife, and now SkiStar, which I can assure is an entrepreneurial company. I think that's a really, really beautiful. I've had the luck to work with those kinds of companies. Stefan showed you this picture, and he talked about the strategy transformation that we have done over the last years, going from European alpine skiing.
I will try to explain a little bit what is the economic and the financial effect of this transition that we have done. So I will go through this and tell you a little bit what is the effect on the numbers. But we start here. Today, we released the new financial goals that we have. But before I get into the goals, I think it's also important to describe a little bit about the journey that we had internally around to reach those. Because for us, this points out the direction for the company for different stakeholders. Some of you are sitting here, but some of those stakeholders are also working in SkiStar. So it's important that we have goals that are easy to communicate, also that people can understand. So we move from four to three. That's one thing that we do.
Then we try to get goals that we can talk about, our employees can attract to and understand when they are in the daily business, how the things that they do, the activities that they do, affect these goals. I think that's an important thing to have that we had a discussion about. Simplicity, which is one of our core values, used that when we were talking about this. So Stefan mentioned the organic growth, 6%. And what I think is important here to also understand is that we are going from inflation + 4%, which is in times like today, a very, very short time to be able to fulfill this. When we have an inflation of 10%, it's very, very difficult. We say that we will have 6% on a yearly basis on the midterm.
Some years could be below, some years could be even or above, but we will aim for 6%. And we are talking about organic growth, meaning we take away acquisitions, we take away currency effects here. And this goal also aligned to our sustainability goal, as we have talked about, Activity Days, 7 million, which is one of the drivers behind here as well. Moving on to the operating margin, 18%. And Emelie, you said before, is it a lower ambition than before? And I would say, no, this is not lowering. This is actually, as Stefan said, leaning forward. And that's based on, I mean, going from 22 to 18, more technicality, how we do accounting is behind that change. I will get into that and explain that effect also.
But we have added summer products, we have added hotels that are quite new businesses, early stage, and they are not as profitable as our winter product that we have been working with for 48 years now. The third one, leverage. And if we compare and we take operating margin together with that one, that also gives a direction, how much can we afford to invest. Now we have a limit here, 2.5. We cannot just go on and spend money on things that are not good for us. We need to be careful and take care about the financial part of it, which is an important thing. Last but not least, our dividend policy opens up a little bit for us when we are using a range instead of a 51% or 50%, more than 50% that we have had in the past.
Now we have a range, and depending on how the cash flow looks like and what challenges we have in the business, we have a range to adjust the dividend in the future. So this is really good for us because this gives us possibilities to create and develop SkiStar and create value for our shareholders. So how shall we be able to reach these goals then, and the first answer here is, of course, the strategic initiatives that Mathias, Niclas, Lars-Göran has talked about today, and if we look at the first on top here, develop of all year-round operations, that was mainly what Niclas talked about. Building our destinations, make them attractive. Make sure that we make and develop destinations that are weatherproof. We can still run a lift even if the weather is not sunny and blue sky.
If it's windy and snowy, we can still run our lift. So make the destinations attractive to people to be able to attract even more customers going forward. The next thing, strengthen margins. This was what Mathias talked about. How can we use pricing, dynamic pricing in a better, more efficient way? We know that the customer that starts their journey with us with accommodation is a more profitable customer than the one who is renting the accommodation through Airbnb and things like that. So we have to work with attractiveness here, pricing, etc. Next thing, as we have communicated, we are on a journey and we have from 1st of September implemented the new organization, meaning that we are taking one layer out of our organization. So we will have faster communication.
We will also focus more on cost, meaning that we will put more efforts into, for example, important things like purchase so that we can work more efficiently on group levels. Not that Åre makes their own purchase of oil, Sälen their own, but that we work as a group together when it comes to purchase. And also not only price, but also the risk in the purchase and our suppliers. So more focus on optimization of cost. And the fourth one, normalize our investment pace. So what does that really mean? It means that we will have a look at our investments and make sure that we can pay the investments with our own cash flow going forward. I will come back a little bit to that one.
When we meet different stakeholders, we often get the feedback that it's a little bit unclear to understand your financial reporting and the history. I will take a few slides now and go through and try to clean and sort out a lot of questions. Yes, we have made a lot of changes in the past. We have changed strategy, as we have talked about today. We have done acquisitions. We built up the new business of hotels, for example, restaurants. We have talked about the summer products and things like that. Products that are early stage, some of those with lower margins. We will guide you through that. Also about the property development part that Lars-Göran talked about, if we compare what we are seeing going forward, compare what the amounts we had in the past.
So starting with this session, we said that, okay, we need to have a baseline somewhere in the history to try to guide you. And we said, okay, let's start with 2017, 2018 and see what has really happened. And if we start with St. Johann, which was part of that part of SkiStar at that period, here we had sales or revenue of SEK 85 million. So we take that part out. And we had a loss that we put back. So we had a loss of a few million there in St. Johann. And then one thing that is important to understand is the accommodation, the mediated accommodation. And here we talk about the way that we do just accounting. It's just technical part.
But it has a really important role because, as you can see, the EBIT level is more or less the same, but at the same time, we increase sales with more than SEK 400 million just based on an accounting technicality. And this means that we have a profit margin reported of 24% that goes down to 20.9%, even if we have the same EBIT level. So this is the baseline, 2017 and 2018 that we tried to guide you on. St. Johann was a strategic decision to move in in year 2015. We stayed there for seven years. We had the ownership of 68%. And during these seven financial years that we had the ownership in St. Johann, the total operating income amounted to SEK 436 million and the EBIT to SEK -185 million.
So this is one of the reasons that we took a new strategic decision to move out from St. Johann. The second thing was that our business model didn't really work in St. Johann, the same way as it does in Sweden and Norway. We could only own and be responsible of selling SkiPass and the lift. We couldn't work with the ski school. We couldn't work with accommodation and things like that. So our business model didn't work. So that's the reasons why we went out of St. Johann. And this is the history over the years where we were there. Back to the accounting practices and the change we have done there. And this slide is also important to understand why we moved from 22% before down to 18%.
And if we look at the first table up here, before I go into that table, I want to say that we released some information in our interim report for the second quarter for the financial year 2021. And we made a new guideline for the year 2020. And the guideline there was a sale of SEK 433 million. But as you can see here, the two years before was SEK 500 million and even more than SEK 500 million. So 2020 was, as we now know, impacted by COVID. So the sales of accommodation or mediated accommodation, when you look into the history, is more close to SEK 500 million and more than SEK 500 million. So this means just applying the new way of accounting had an effect on EBIT level, 3.9% and 3.7%. We still generate the same amount of profit.
This is really the reason behind that we had a change in the numbers on the financials related to profit. Moving into Skiab, because this is also a topic where we get a lot of questions around Skiab and the JV that we have together with Peab. The start of this was when we wanted to develop the project Åre-Sälen. When we took the strategic decision to start the hotel business in year 2020, we said that, okay, Skiab is a good partner to use in this kind of transaction. We already had three hotels with 50%/50% ownership. We were already working together with Peab in some JV constellations. We cleaned up our ownership structure and we moved all the hotels to Skiab. We also have long lease agreements, which is good both for Skiab and for SkiStar.
Together with the hotels, we also included some land areas. And now when Lars-Göran has talked about land, everyone knows that that part is gold for us. So moving on to what was the effect here. And the reason is to lighten up the balance sheet. So when we did this transaction, moved the hotel, we lightened up the debt side of our balance sheet because we had quite some loans related to the hotels in our books. We also sent away some of or sold some of the land. And here we are talking about, we say AAA location in SkiStar. And what does AAA location really mean? It means first ski in, ski out. But it also means that we have facilities around those properties, meaning restaurants, shops, and other commercial areas where the customers can go. So that's our definition of AAA location in SkiStar.
Looking into Skiab also, we have the value of the hotels and the land. It's a little bit more than SEK 2 billion, the book value today. Of that SEK 2.2 billion, SEK 300 million is related to the land, the detailed planned lands that we have, and that is almost 94,000 square building areas. After Lars-Göran's presentation, everyone here in the room and on the web understand what the building area is. So that is really good land that we have in this company. I talked about the long leasing contracts that we have. This is also one of the reasons why we account without IFRS 16 when we look at our net debt to EBITDA, because those long leasing contracts between SkiStar and Skiab means that we have a liability in SkiStar of SEK 1.5 billion related to this.
And since we have 50% of the ownership, in reality, we stand for SEK 500 million in debt to the bank. But in SkiStar books, we have SEK 1.5 billion liabilities related to IFRS 16 and those contracts. When we look at Skiab, SkiStar and the hotel business is paying rental fees to SkiStar, which is generating a good profit in this company and this group. And we get back 50% of that into SkiStar income statement as profit from JV. But between the rent that we pay, the operative result, we have some technical things that we need to also understand in Skiab. We have currency effects that we have talked about in the Q4, meaning some exposure between Swedish and Norwegian kroner that can have an effect and did have an effect this year. We also have interest derivatives that we need to reevaluate every quarter.
The third thing is that those properties that we have here, they are investment properties, meaning that we reevaluate them every quarter or every year, not a linear depreciation. We do market valuation on these, meaning that in the first two years, we increased the value on these properties. And this year, based on the market conditions for property companies, we had to lower the book value. And that has an effect on the books and our profit in SkiStar. 50% of those get back to SkiStar.
Last, hotel division, which is, as you can see here, we have grown this business really, really fast. We started from 37 million SEK in 2020, 2021, and we went up to almost 500 million SEK in sales now. This is one segment that we report in our financial reports. And everyone here knows that this is a start. It's still not yet profitable.
But Lina and the hotel team are really working to make this profitable. And if we look at the operative margin and the operative profit, they are getting in the right direction because they create more profit this year than last year. So we are on a journey here. So if we look then to summarize the slides and the history and compare 2017 to 2018 and 2017, 2018 to 2022, 2023, and this is adjusted. And it's adjusted for St. Johann effect for three years or until St. Johann effect, sorry. We also have adjusted 2022, 2023 figures with the hotel business, the restaurants, and the accommodation because here we are talking about organic. And if we look at that then, oh, sorry, we have also the accommodation, but that doesn't have an effect here. Sorry. 5.6% CAGR between those years. Yearly growth of 5.6 over those years.
1.6% of that is through volume, meaning more Activity Days and SkiPass days that we have sold. 4% is something else. That's price. Also looking at the different revenue streams, we see that Activity Pass is an important product for us. That's where we have the majority of our revenue. If we look at the ski school here, you see that we are losing or decreasing by 0.3%. That's a strategic decision behind that. That's also important because the people there, the young kids, the new people coming into the winter sport, that's the project, the product that they use. That's our key to keep on getting people to like the skiing and to get those customers back year after and year after and year after. That's how we build the young people and get back to the journey that Niclas talked about.
They start in Hammarbybacken, Sälen, and go to Åre, and then they come back again. This is the door opener for us. And you can see here also the retail business, the sport shops, that's the part of our revenue that really grows fastest, 14.5%. And we grow both our physical stores and our web shop. So if we go back to our financial goals, grow 6%. In this case, we have shown that, yes, it's doable. We have done it over times. And I think it's also important that you see when you look at our financial reports, it looks like we have grown even faster. But these are the real cleaned numbers. Moving into EBIT, this is a slide to the left here that we have shown the last year where we separate between the EBIT from the operations and the capital gain.
The capital gain is what Lars-Göran is talking about. We have low value on the land, and we sell it with a quite good margin. If we look at the history here before COVID in 2017/18, 2018/19, we said we have quite high numbers there, SEK 150 million, SEK 175 million in capital gains. Now the capital gains are lower, SEK 57 million, SEK 75 million. Going forward, we will be more careful. We will be more strict what kind of projects we will develop. You should not expect numbers like before COVID. To guide a little bit more, the SEK 75 million-SEK 100 million in capital gains, that's a more realistic number going forward when it comes to capital gains. What's also interesting to see here is that, yes, we did 14% profit, but we are still growing the EBIT in actual numbers from our operation.
So when you look at these numbers here on the right side, we have cleaned out St. Johann. We have adjusted the mediated accommodation, and that has an effect only on the profit margin. And then in year 2020 and 2021, for those who remember, we had a loss in St. Johann of SEK 161 million, but we also sold the land to Skiab that year, and that made a profit of SEK 198 million. We cleaned out both of them.
So looking at 18%, when you look at this year, yes, it's a bit tough. It's a way to do. But looking at the history, it's a goal that we should absolutely be able to deliver on. Moving on to net debt to EBITDA. When we talk here, and as I explained about we cleaned it out from IFRS effects. So this is only focusing on debt to our banks.
And as you see in the history, we have been able to stay below 2.5 over the last years. Even if we have had investments that have, as you can see here on this slide, been a little bit higher the last two years than previous. And when we talk about investments here, I want to clarify that this is the investments in fixed assets like properties, like land, like lifts and things like that, and machines. So it's not everything. I didn't include acquisitions in companies, which is a minor amount. But this is the big portion of the investments. And we say here that we will normalize these investments, normalize the pace, and we will finance them with our own cash flow. So going into the cash flow then, this is the last slide from my presentation.
Going into the profit or the cash flow, starting off with the profit here. Yes, as we explained in the Q4 report last week, our profit this year is a little bit lower than last year, mainly due to the higher cost. Of course, that had an effect here. We also had an effect on the non-adjustment for non-cash items that we adjust. The main part here is related to depreciations. Working capital down here. This year, we had the delivery of products to our retail business in August, which is good because we need the products to be able to sell during autumn and winter. So we wanted that delivery actually in August, but the year before, the delivery was late due to logistic reasons. So that delivery came in our Q1. We also had an effect from leaving St. Johann.
So in total, what we are saying is that this cash flow from operation should be able to finance our investments, our dividend, and this one is 40%-60% now, and also the borrowing side of it. That was my last slide. So final remarks, Stefan. Welcome up.
So thank you so much, Martin. And I will actually just point out the two where it's actually only one slide now left. And I'm really glad that the team has presented the updated strategy. I'm really glad that Martin went through the whole calculations backwards so we see where we are coming from. And if we then look into those seven areas, I really would like to highlight them. And all of us could now, from going on when we follow up our quarter reports and so on, relate to those seven points.
So if we start with the first one, we have a unique and stable both financial, sustainable, and also market-leading position in Scandinavia. That's really stated here today. We also have a large land bank. Lars-Göran went through it. We have seen it in detail, how many square meters of land which are possible to develop. Also, Mathias has showed our digital platforms. They will be an enabler for us to continue to drive visits to our destinations, both winter as in the important now summer business growing. And Niclas has told us about the importance of how we recruit new guests. And that is with everything we do with the world-class guest experiences. Then Mathias also told us about the importance of those commercial beds because there are many beds at each destination.
We have decided to move some of the beds out because they are not in the AAA locations. But now, since there have been built a lot of them, also there is this 160,000, we will attract more of those in the peak seasons. And then also, how can we, like Niclas has described, utilize all the capacity we actually have within our destination to drive operational costs down? And also, that will help us to strengthen our margins. And then last but not least, Martin just showed us that we have been into a pace where we had an increased spending investment, but we will now go back and normalize that. And that will be helpful for all of us sitting here. So by that, Emelie, I would like to finalize and say thank you to all of you, both online and in this room.
And Emelie, I assume you will start to navigate with some questions and so on.
Gathered the questions in the room and also is coming in via the internet. So let's invite the speakers up again. And let's rotate. You guys stand up.
Can we go here?
Yes. You go there. And I'll go on the other side. So you can all stand together. Can you see we have good color coordination today as well? Very.
Yeah, it's just Martin who stands out.
Yeah. He's the newest member, so.
Yes.
Okay. So reminder again for you in the room, just raise your hand and we'll bring a microphone to you. And Petra has one in her hand. And you online, you have a function just below the video frame where you can join the discussion. Okay. So I'll start us off then.
You say that you're going to grow 6% organically yearly. Is that in line with how your industry is growing, or are you going to gain market share?
I take that or yeah. So I believe, not believe, we have decided to grow our business. We have a stable market share situation in the winter business, so to say. But we say we will grow more than the market as such. We believe that we can gain market shares actually in this industry. That's one thing. And then if you look into other parts of our revenue streams, like the retail side, we see that we are growing more than the market right now.
And we will continue to do that because we have a very good structure both from the customer database Mathias has shown us today, where we can sell retail goods, but also within all our physical shops at our destinations.
Okay. So anyone in the room wants to? Yes. We have one over here.
Thank you. A lot of interesting data today. So thank you very much for that. Just to kick off with the seven million target, I understand it's for 2030. If you could allude a little more maybe to how you see the summer product and the winter product makeup there. And if you need to attract any new customer groups to really go there, how much would be international? How much would be domestic, for example?
Yeah. I look at you, Martin, who has done calculations. So Mathias.
Yeah.
I can start that a little bit and then the other one can fill in. The 7 million days that we talked about, that's the sustainability goal, I guess you refer to. And the split there is 6.4 million on the winter and 600,000 Activity Days on summer. So that's the first thing. And then I think you can fill in, Mathias.
If you look at different target groups, I mean, during winter, we need to find more international guests because there are huge volumes to take shares. Summertimes, I believe there are a lot of potential customers within Scandinavia, both within our own customer database, but we have also seen during those three years that we can attract completely new groups coming up for the first time to our destinations when we have an attractive product. So it depends a little bit on what season we're talking about.
Do you want to follow up?
Maybe add also another part to the equation. Looking at your own hotel operation, how does that fit into the strategy and how do you want to proceed to develop that? I guess it gives you some certainty of beds in your system and these kind of things, but how can you make it also a profitable proposition?
I can start a bit. Martin, maybe you can join me. And I think one thing in the past strategy, we have been very reluctant to increase prices on the hotel beds. We have been quite, can I say, Mathias, nice to really drive in and fill every bed. But since we also know that they are fully booked actually already now, and Lina is a little bit angry on us, me and Mathias, why are we selling the beds too cheap?
So we will actually make sure we have the right pricing on the beds. And it's better to take out a higher price on those. And that will also make the hotels a little bit more profitable as well since we have been reluctant to keep that price down to sell other products much more. So that has been in the equation of the SkiStar wheel, so to say. So Lina will continue to work on the cost side, and she's committed to that, and also to continue to work on the revenue side. So that was my two cents. I don't, Martin.
But there's also, this is a little bit technical, but how we adjust numbers between. So if you look at the hotel division this year compared to last year, we have allocated more internal cost to that segment than we did before.
This guy also gets because the hotel, Lina pays the rent, and this guy here, Lars-Göran, is the lucky receiver of the profit from the ski hub. So that's also one thing that makes the hotel business looks a little bit lower level from a specific hotel division, so to say.
Another way of increasing revenue within the hotels is actually during our summer business. Wintertime, we need all beds. But during summertimes, we have capacity, and there we will focus to put customers into our hotel and lodges. So that will be, yeah, the selected accommodation we want the customers to stay since we have a fixed rent.
Anyone else in the room at this time? Or else I'll go to the online questions. One from Adela is, you stated that roughly 80% of total revenue is sold in advance. What types of products and services is not?
Can you increase this share even further, or should we view it as a roof?
Yeah. First of all, yes, we're selling 88% - 91% in advance. What we sell within our destinations, point of sales, is a lot linked to our sports shops and retail business. If we can increase the sales at our destinations, absolutely. As I presented, we will start selling other activities that will be point of sales, a lot of point of sales revenues. We will also try to increase our restaurants within our hotels and lodges. So there are potential to sell more as point of sales.
Yeah. And I'll continue. Yes, sir. Just wait for the microphone.
I have a question. I see the product that you're selling to Scandinavian tourists is one way, one product.
The product that you're selling for British or Holland should be a rather different product, a more packaged traveling. Are you extending that? You could have your own planes flying in and so on like to Ving has. Is that something you're planning, or am I just freebasing?
I mean, it's correct because we need to sell different kinds of products to an international customer. They want to have a more packaged product, half board. And there we can actually sell our hotel and lodges, including food and beverage and so on. We don't operate transportations today. Maybe we see what's happening within transportation, but no transportations today. But a completely different package for an international guest. Yeah.
And no pack for where?
For? For big packaging travel. For transportation, not as today.
Okay.
I con tinue with Athena, who's wondering what revenue and profit potential do you see for the summer business at full capacity?
What revenue and profit potential?
Yes.
Yeah. We believe that this is a great potential for us going forward. Like we have said, Martin said the 600,000 days. We believe that we have found the key a little bit. We have now tried with this three years. And now, since we have found this SälenPasset, TrysilPasset, it really works actually that it's including all activities at the destination. And then you can charge for that. And that is also appreciated by the customers using it. And we believe that we become profitable in the summer season quite reasonably within a two-year period, something like that, Niclas. We have spoken about since we are driving the volume up now. And then it starts to be very interesting.
Then the cost for driving the whole destination is still there, of course, but this will help also to support revenue streams and profit as well.
And since, yes, another question?
I'll take a chance to ask Lars-Göran a couple of questions as well. Cliffhanger sounds very interesting, but when do you think that kind of project can really be something that is comme rcial?
I think that project will be. We'll be skiing in Cliffhanger for about three years. And the property development will take a little bit longer. I say five years from now. Time as expectation.
Could I just add then support Lars-Göran in the municipality of Vemdalen? It's a fantastic municipality to work with. Within very shortly, we made the acquisition a year ago. And we have already a detailed plan ready for the ski area. And now we are into the property and building area.
So, an example of how fast it can go when we work. And the land value has increased quite dramatically since we made this purchase since we now already have the detailed plans ongoing. So, I think this is a very good example. And you also showed Söderåsen, which is also a great example of how it can go. Then, in Åre, as you said, I will say it then, it takes a little bit longer time than it do in some other of our destinations. However, we are not worried since there is a new, actually, management in Åre, which is actually extremely supportive to what we are doing. And they also see us an enabler to continue to develop Åre as a destination, which is actually quite new, good signals the last three, four months. I think you're right there. So, actually, that is helpful.
I think you already answered two of my follow-up questions, I think. If you look at Åre and you mentioned the ski lodge already in your six-minute movie at the start, when do you really see that being a maybe commercial alternative?
Difficult question. I have the same hope for Åre as Stefan told us right now. But I won't see some evidence that will come to the planning process. And I haven't seen them yet. But I hope we're right there. So if we can start the planning process with that World Cup lodge, it's taken the plan will be maybe finished three or four years. And then it takes some time to build this house too. So Olympic 2030 will be fine.
Yeah. So just to support Lars-Göran here as well. So we are now, Sweden are now in the process for application to the Olympics 2030.
Åre is one of the destinations where Olympics will be held in Sweden if that happens. That means that for us, this will be extremely positive since we will need beds. The Olympics needs more beds in Åre. There will be no investments for just short-term investment. They will be for long-term. That means that that could be very helpful that we will build not only one lodge, actually two lodges since we also have the land next to VM8, which will be ready for building a lodge as well. That's why I think Olympics could be very good like it was, Niclas, for World Championship in 2000, 2007 an d 2019.
Yeah. It's also the Olympics is also an enabler for snowmaking and for everything in the snow.
When you say Olympics, you mean Winter Olympics.
Winter Olympics 2030.
We are not there yet in November.
No. Just checking. I just want to get in here with one of the questions too that's been coming in from online because it regards the property development. So Lars-Göran, is the current macroeconomic environment affecting or delaying the pace in which you can develop land areas into completed detailed plans?
No. It's not. We can develop land areas into detailed plans. But yes, when we realize the projects, then we have to wait and see how the market turns. But full speed on the throttle, I think you said. Sure.
Then I guess I'll just tie on to that as well. Looking at Söderåsen, have you adjusted the plans for that in some ways, how you see the development pace of it?
Söderåsen is soon here. The stage two, as I told you, is the 10,000 sq m of living.
We have that plan ready in the summer of 2024, so then we can start build. We hope that the market will turn because it's an excellent ski area and living all year round. Already now in Söderåsen, we have made a six-seater completely new for this season, just to attract people to go there to see more people from Gustav to this area. We also weather-secured it with a T-bar. If the six-seater stands due to wind, we can operate the T-bar so you can still move around in this area. It's also possibilities for the future to make some more slopes and interesting skiing facilities, as Lars-Göran told. Söderåsen is definitely the next project in. It's ongoi ng. Sälen.
I just want to see if there's someone else. We're always happy with active guests in the audience.
I just want to see if someone else has a question. Yes.
We'll follow up on the property. Your guidance for SEK 75 million-SEK 100 million capital gains annually. Do you think that's achievable also for this fiscal year?
I think so. It's tough, but I hope, I think. It will be tough. But I'm positive.
And another topic, you mentioned acquisitions. What areas are you looking at? I guess it would be very hard giving you market share to add another resort.
We are not looking at another resort right now, but we are still evaluating different projects to come into us. And in those times when the economy is tough, we have quite much suggestion who's coming that maybe if this one have the money, we buy it.
I guess, Stefan, I can just follow up on your question because I think it is very important what you're asking. First of all, we have guidance, like Martin is saying, between this 75 to 100. That is our guidance now. And then the other part we also have is that there is so much on the table at the moment since the situation in the markets is a little bit unstable. And of course, we are not loaded of cash, but we are here for staying at our destinations. And there is a lot of land opportunities coming into Lars-Göran. And we are evaluating the different opportunities actually every day right now. And this morning, we actually put in a bid on one land. So we will continue to see what opportunities can be here for us.
I actually have one more question. Warm beds and cold beds.
In Sandhamn, they have sold some real estate property for the highest prices in Sweden, and they said there was going to be warm beds, but nobody wants to rent them out. Do you have the same what you think about this? Is it possible to sell something and then force people to rent them out? Or especially if you're buying in a AAA area and you have a lot of money, you don't want anybody to sleep in your bed. Please. Pass the question. You understand the question.
I sure understand. We got less paid when we were selling warm beds. That's what this is, but in Sweden, this that you are talking about now is more in Norway. For example, in Hemsedal, we have the discussion and the regulation with cold beds, warm beds.
But I think when this economy is tough for people and high interest, more and more are looking into renting out their apartments. I don't know if that was the answer to the question. No, but I think in Norway, just it's 60-40, 60 warm and 40 cold. And that's a regulation stated in the municipality of Hemsedal as an example. Mathias, you would like to say something as well?
Yeah, add a little bit to what Lars-Göran said. Due to macroeconomic factors, we see actually right now that a lot of people want to rent out their beds. So we have a very positive effect on our commercial beds for the moment. We're getting more and more beds into the system.
Please.
Thank you. Fredrik Lithell from Handelsbanken. Thanks for all the presentations.
Just wanted to come back to one of your comments here on that there is a lot on the table right now as the economic conditions have changed. Would you consider more opportunistically to take in fresh cash in order to be able to exploit this situation that is sort of turning positive for you in that sense and sort of drive that over a 10-year period? It has not been on any discussion, but I think the goal of net debt versus EBITDA, we are saying today, what is the exa ct statement today?
Yeah, what we are saying there is 2.5, that's the guideline. Then if something good comes, like you are talking about now, then we can evaluate it. If it's the right project that comes, then we need to have a discussion internally with the board if we should go for it or not.
But we don't say no here and now if the right project turns out.
Okay. Thank you. And could we also discuss costs a little bit? I mean, we have had 10% inflation. You probably learned a lot about that this last year. How do you work in mitigating the effects from costs? And what have you discovered the last year and how will that sort of make your costs trend going forward? Are there any big discoveries? Thank you.
Shall I start?
You can start and then I can fill in.
Because I think when we presented our first quarter report a year ago, a little bit more than a year ago, we were taken a bit by surprise by the high cost, especially from Niclas. He was just spending.
No, but we could see that the previous projects we have had in the pipeline, they went all of a sudden up very dramatically due to the euro and also that we maybe put in too many projects actually for maintenance. We had a debt also from the previous pandemic years. So that cost us a bit more than expected. Then since we wanted to invest in the year-round business, it cost us a bit more on Mathias' side. And then maybe to be frank and honest with ourselves, when we had the pandemic, we were not so strict on people and the costs. We were more, let's keep us open.
Let's make sure we have this open. And then last year, this was not what we expected. So already actually in December, we decided to make this cost program. And why we also made an external consultancy to help us.
And that's why we didn't just did a slice. We actually did with a structured process of how to organize us. Because Niclas, Mathias, Camilla, myself, we were sitting along the whiteboard, tried to find an organizational structure, but we didn't manage ourselves. So we said, okay, let's get some help from outside. And that led to our new structure. So Mathias, I will then by that hand over to you.
Thank you. Now that I think from a I think it's important to see how we are flying into this situation because we were, at least myself, a little bit taken by surprise to what happened. And maybe you as well. But I believe that we are now in a different situation than we were a year ago. That's why I feel that the program we have put in place, we have announced SEK 50 million, that's in checkbox.
We are, of course, not satisfied with that. That's a very important message to give here today as well.
Yeah, and I think also what I mentioned in the presentation that we are looking into, for example, in the purchase process, how we can be more efficient. That will take some years to get there. We will make small steps. We will also start with some processes internally that we evaluate and be more cost-cautious and see, do we need these costs or not. We will put more focus into that area this year. But then also, of course, we should be honest to say that there are quite a big portion of our maintenance costs that we buy in euro. And so there we get a double hit.
We get first the inflation in the euro country and then we got the currency effect on top of that, so that has also hurt us in some of our costs, mostly I would say in the maintenance and repairs, but also in the property management, we have worked a lot with energy saving, and that we still do, and we see the results, and that's a lot of money we have saved. Same in the snowmaking process also, it's also the same, so it's a continuing process. We can do everything. As I told you, we have a 4% target.
And I think just to build on Lars-Göran a bit also, the big change also, the biggest change maybe in our reorganization beside the structural process has been to move all the property department to Lars-Göran and take a grip on that department, which didn't look the same on five destinations, we must say. And we maybe had too much people working on that and maybe not in a structural way. So that we take quite good grip on now. And like you say, there is quite a lot of money to save on the processes as such in property department. One of the main things with that organization, that's what we see. We have 120 own properties that contribute to a commercial value, as we say. And to work more value with those, there's something in front of us and something who is very interesting.
We have never done that in SkiStar. I would like to build a small real estate company working with the value in another quite different way than we have done. We are exactly in the starting point of that.
Let's get some other questions in here. I just want to clarify something because Boris asked what the midterm targets mean, if they mean three years, five years, 2030. What does it mean?
I got the question today before when I was in Åre, and we said midterm is three to five years. Of course, if you look into the growth, it is yearly growth at 6%. Then last year it was 5%. Of course, I mean, that means that we have to do 7%s just to see what I mean. It's an average. We will go for 6% every year.
And 80 needs to go for. So midterm is three to five years.
May I ask you about currency? Not in terms of auditing and things like that, but if the Swedish crown would strengthen, what is your best estimate of the impact of your business? Because there are really two currency relationships that matter for you. It's the Norwegian crown versus the Swedish, and it's the euro versus the Swedish. You lose some and you win some. If with some help from God or someone else, the Swedish crown finally strengthens with 10%, what is your best guesstimate of the impact of your business?
Tricky question because we will have an effect from the international guests. And for example, if we say the Danish people, that portion, if the scenario will be as you say, today we sell this in Danish kroner, so that effect will be hurting us.
On the other side, the part that Niclas and I buy in products and services and things like that, that we will have the opposite effect. And how they will even out, I think there will be more or less evened out. That's my best guess today. Or someone else has something else?
Yeah, I mean , we have had that situation before, and I think it worked quite well then. So I think we can manage a strength in Swedish kroner as well.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's not the issue. But how they will net, how the sales that we have in foreign currency will even out the cost, that's the way I understand your question. Yeah. And I would say more or less even out.
Okay. Just a short question on pricing.
Since you are maybe the big leverage is still on the fixed assets that you said somehow, looking on the SkiPass prices, looking on the new organic growth revenue goal, so to say, 2% is volume, 4% is price. If you're looking on the European prices in the Alps, and I think they have increased pretty fast compared to your prices, even though I think a lot of Swedes think that your prices are way too high already. If you fly over to the States, I guess the day pass in Vail is now $250-$300 a day. A day. That's basically a week in order. Can you comment on your prices on the lift tickets and what your strategy is because you don't want to have cold beds? You want warm beds, not cold beds.
Mathias?
Yeah, I can start.
The fact is correct what you're saying. If we compare our SkiPasses to the Alps and North America as well, they are much higher. Of course, there are different products and so on. But the tricky part for us will, of course, be to maximize the income of the SkiPasses as long as our customers find value within our prices. So that's the tricky part we try to find all the time. But I believe that with our product development and so on, we can improve and increase our prices.
And what Mathias said also in his presentation is work more with dynamic pricing through demand, through to maybe in the future, weather, crowded slopes and everything. So I think it's a great possibility.
So it's not just about the percentage of how much we increase.
It's also the dynamic part of it, when and how the customer buys the SkiPasses.
This is one of my favorite questions from Viggo and all the journalists, you know, when they ask about the SkiPass prices because I sometimes come in a defense mode there. Because I try to come into a defense mode. But I will try to not do that. Instead of talking about all the benefits we have, and we have tried to show that today with the five largest destinations we have and how unbeatable we actually are. If you just look into a SkiPass in Branäs or in Idre, it's cost SEK 20-SEK 50 or SEK 100 less per week than us. But just look what you get when you buy a SkiPass in our destination. And journalists very seldom look at that, unfortunately.
So that's one of our we have to show that in a much better way than we are doing. And Mathias and his team is working fantastic right now with talking about this and deals and how you can actually fill a SkiPass at our destination compared to any other destination can do actually. With everything from parking tickets to discount on ski shops to discount on food, discount on that. We can load the SkiPass with so mu ch benefits with no one else can do. So I think that's something we need to be better to talk about ac tually.
And it's also extremely important to look at the total package. I mean, SkiPass is one product out of many. So what we look into is what's the price for the full package compared to a trip to the Alps or some other destinations.
And there we are really compatible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, guys, I want to make sure we can take some from our viewers online as well. Should we expect a more normal pace of CapEx spend going forward? What level do you feel is sufficient to satisfy needs and provide a positive guest experience given your new business model and strategic priorities?
Yeah, Martin, you shouldn't say level.
No, I said to Stefan, don't mention a level here. So then, so what's the level then? No, but what we say, what I think is important here, the levels that we have seen the last two years, we will have lower levels than that. We will finance this with our own cash flow as well. To make sure that we balance the cash flow with the debt. That's important.
And then it's up to the people here and Lina and the other people in the business to, what do you say, overtake? Convince me and Stefan that that's really the project and the good return on this project. And then we have to choose because that's not the problem that we don't get too many. We get a lot of good projects internally. So we have to choose which one to focus on.
And I think also, to be completely brutally honest about the investment we did in St. Johann, it was not the best investment we have done. You saw it on the numbers. It was not only need cash, etc. It also needed a lot of investment. So we took investment from what's needed to be invested in our core, the five best destinations in Scandinavia, and gave the money to St. Johann.
And that we had the debt on as well, to be completely frank. And now we have taken that back. We have invested. We are in a good pace. So we can lower the investment levels and to a much more decent level, which I think is good for cash flow as well. So we feel good about that.
Let me follow up with, what are your capital allocation priorities outside of dividend payments?
Yeah, Martin, that you spoke about.
You're always silent when you have the tricky questions to give them to Martin.
Yes, yes, exactly.
Can you take the question again?
Yes.
What are your capital allocation priorities outside of dividend payments?
First of all, we want to make sure that we continue to build attractive destinations. That's important because that will drive volume and attract guests to our destination.
The weatherproof and build snowmaking systems and things like that, that will be a priority. And then, of course, we rely on Lars-Göran and hope that the market can come back so we can start to put money into that as well.
And let me take one too. I think Mathias, how can you ensure that you offer the most attractive platform for external accommodation rentals in terms of fees versus other platforms such as Airbnb?
Yeah, that's a good question. First of all, what we can offer at our platform is a one-stop shop sales platform for the customers. They can buy all relevant products within our platform. No one else can do that. So that's a huge advantage for us. Then what we can offer the bed owners is, of course, attractive offers as well with discounts on SkiPasses and so on.
Other platforms can't do that either. So yeah, that's the answer to that.
Okay. We're getting very close to five o'clock. I want to see if there's anyone else in the room who wants the final question. Yes. Wait for the microphone.
Super, thank you. Just a quick question about your booking levels for the coming season. Can you give any insights into that?
Don 't look at Martin.
No, I will not. Okay. No, we had a quarter report a week ago, and then we presented we had +7%, which is something we are extremely proud of. And we can see a huge demand on traveling to our destinations for this upcoming winter season. And we are in the pace.
We also were extremely transparent in this call we had with most of you guys, also showing that we are close to the peak level we had before the pandemic or during the season just after the pandemic. We are in a very good situation right now, actually, I must say. It feels very good. From a different perspective, Mathias, so I will try to see if we can help each other. First of all, we have the strong currency effect, which helps us from two dimensions. We have a lot of Danes. We have been into them. Also from Swedish people can travel to Norway for a very good exchange rate. That is very good. But Mathias also,
we have a great calendar effect as well. The holidays are good in the calendar.
Yeah. They're in our favor. Yeah, yeah.
That will have to be the final question for today because it's 5:00 P.M. already. So thank you to the entire team for your presentations. Thank you all for your questions as well, you online. And for those who like to revisit any of the presentations or the entire day for that matter, again, it will be available from tomorrow at the SkiStar corporate website. And so for you in the room, you'll have the opportunity to continue these discussions with the team just here outside now when we stop. And you online, I hope you will have some time to interact with the team at another occasion in the future. Now, Stefan, please, the final word.
Oh, thank you so much, Emelie. And thank you everyone for being with us this day.
I'm really glad that we have been able to get the great presentations of my team here. And also, please, if you would like to have one-to-ones, etc., let's make that happen. And we can, of course, arrange that as well. So a warm thank you. And please join us for some mingle. And you know who we are. We are well color coordinated today. So thank you so much for coming here today.