Earnings Call: Q3 2019

Oct 24, 2019

Gentlemen, thank you all for standing by. Welcome to the TOBI Earnings Call Q3 2019. At this time, all participants are in a listen only mode. After the presentation, there will be a question and answer session. Also, I must advise that the call is being recorded today, Thursday, 24th October, 2019. Without any further delay, I would now like to hand over the call to your first speaker today, Mr. Henrik Askelson. Thank you. Please go ahead. Thank you, Ramon, and thanks for joining this call, everyone. As usual, me and Johan will run through Tobey's progress and they plan in the Q3 this year. So let's move directly to the next slide, please. And let's start with a high level summary for the Q3. Revenue for the entire Tobi Group grew by 15% or 8% adjusted for currency. Tobii Dynavox reported a substantially improved EBIT margin of 14%, which is a significant improvement from both previous quarters and the same quarter last year. Equally, in Tobipro, we reported a very much improved EBIT margin, in this case of 13%, And TOBI Tech roughly doubled its external revenue. Also, we have recently launched 2 very important products, the new I Series in TOBI Dynamox and the TOBI Pro Fusion product in TOBI Pro. Let's go into some detail on each of the business units and starting with TOBI DYNAVOX. As you know, Tobii Dynavox is the global leader in assistive technology for communication. This is Tobii's largest business unit and makes up close to 60% of the group's overall sales. Next slide. We continue to invest for long term growth of TOBI DYNAVOX and to be able to provide a voice to more and more users in need. A very important recent event was the launch of the new I series early this week, and I will come back and talk more about this in a minute. Perhaps a little bit counterintuitive is that we know from experience that we typically see a bit of slowdown on sales when we shift over to a new product. This is both because resellers are hesitant to carry stock of an older product when they know a new product is underway and also that we need to reprocess a lot of orders through the reimbursement process, which can take up to a few months to accomplish. We generally saw good sales growth in Q3 of most of the products in the portfolio. Specifically, we saw a slight drop in sales of old I Series due to M and N shift over to the new I Series. We've also seen some improvements in the Motelmex and internal funding process that we mentioned in the last earnings call. Next slide, please. So let's talk a little bit more about the new I Series. The I Series is Tobii Dynavox's eye controlled and medical grade flagship product. It makes up roughly 50% of all of TOBI DYNAVOX's revenue, and it does extremely important, both for the business unit and for Tobii Group as a whole. The old Icerius was originally launched 6 years ago and has been a major success and driver for growth in Tobizanovox ever since. The new I Series has been redesigned from the ground up. It is a major improvement of an already proven and successful concept. The new I Series is much lighter, much faster, much more durable. It comes equipped with Tobey's latest state of the art IS5 eye tracking technology. It features an innovative partner window that enables true face to face communication, and it comes with brand new innovative and user friendly software called Computer Control. And I'm obviously very jazzed about this product and confident that this will reinforce our position as market leader and drive profitable growth for Tobii Dynavox in several years to come. Next slide. As you may recall, we have talked about our world class comprehensive product portfolio that spans all price bands and covers a broad spectrum of use and needs. On the bottom, from a price perspective, we have pure assistive technology communication software that can either run as a low cost communication solution on consumer electronics like an iPad or run together with our more sophisticated devices. Then we have mid range solutions that consist of devices that are consumer grade and offered at attractive price points, but still designed for assistive technology for communication. These are typically sold to schools and other funding bodies with low reimbursement rates. And on the top end, we have our medical grade solutions that are typically sold together with extensive support and service packages. This is where the new I Series sits as our top of the line model. In each price band, we have both touch based solutions and eye tracking based solutions with some of the product examples illustrated on the right hand side in this picture. So over to you, Johan, and the financials. All right. Hi, everyone. As communicated during the quarter, CMA decided that we have to divest SmartBox, and hence, we have implemented IFRS 5 in our accounting, which means that the acquisition is no longer part of Tobii Dynavox segment or the group. This change impacts both the profit and loss statement as well as the balance sheet. In this stand alone view, Tobriannevaux showed good sales growth for many of our products and some improvement in our internal funding process, but we also experienced material negative effects in the quarter from the product transition to the recently launched I Series. Revenues grew by 6% in the quarter or flat adjusted for currencies. In addition to the product transition mentioned, we had negative nonrecurring adjustments linked to how provisions for sales through insurance companies in the U. S. A. Are reported. Gross margin came in at 68%, in line with previous year, but trending upward from previous quarter despite the non recurring revenue items that impacted gross profit negatively as well. Our operating expenses were in good control and grew only due to currency impact in Q3. The Q3 EBIT margin was up materially versus last year, up 5 points to 14%, and we also see an upward trend from previous quarters. In the 1st 9 months, the business unit delivered FX adjusted revenue growth of 5% and an EBIT margin of 11%, which is up 2 points from last year. Over to you, Henrik. All right. So next is Tobii Pro, which, as you know, is a global leader in eye tracking solutions for understanding human behavior. Tobii Pro makes up close to 30% of the sales of the group and holds a very strong market position with a global market share above 60%. In Pro V Pro, we service thousands of different customers that use our eye tracking solutions to understand human behavior in a myriad of situations, industries and applications. As one of many, many examples is the space agency, NASA, that uses Tobi light tracking for a number of different things, including to train control operators, as shown in the picture on this slide. Next slide, please. Another example is wayfinding studies. How do people navigate around in specific environments? And in this area, we've done several large studies with major airports on this topic, including Munich Airport, London Heathrow and Kastrup Airport with a purpose of optimizing the passenger journey. Next slide. Last week, we launched the brand new TOBI ProFusion product, ProFusion as our latest high performance research grade yet very small and portable eye tracker. This is designed for advanced eye tracking studies, both inside and outside the lab. Typical research deals where this is the ideal tool include behavior research, psychology, neuroscience and medicine. It features very impressive and absolutely world leading eye tracking performance. Next slide. This slide helps us put the ProFusion product into some context. Also TOBI Pro has a very strong world leading product portfolio. It includes both eye trackers that are connected to a computer screen, such as the entry level product ProNana, the left on this picture, the new high performance Pro Fusion and the top end ProSpectrum eye trackers. The portfolio also includes our best selling ProGlasses, which is our mobile or wearable eye tracking system. And we also have our leading Tobii Pro Lab software that enables our customers to design, conduct and analyze the results from advanced studies using these different eye tracking devices. Tobii Pro Fusion is a tremendous improvement over older products in the same product category and reinforces Tobipro's position as market leader and also this important segment of the market. Next slide. Okay. Over to the financials. Tobipro revenue growth in Q3 rebounded from a weaker Q2, and we saw continued large share of solutions sales. In the 3rd quarter, revenues by 18% and 10% adjusted for currencies. Gross margin came in at 76%, which was flat year over year but up sequentially. As we have indicated before, operating expense growth was down considerably, especially in R and D and showed a 4% growth adjusted for currency. EBIT margin improved materially compared to last year and was up 8 points. Remember that we tend to have strong seasonal patterns in Tobiklo. And in Q3, which is one of weak quarters, an EBIT margin of 13% is really good, even though it was partly positively impacted from a change in an earnout consideration. In the 1st 3 quarters of 2019, Tobii Pro has delivered FX adjusted revenue growth of 5% and an EBIT margin of 11%, which is up from 8% last year. And remember that revenues in 2018 was positively impacted by the effect of taking over a large portion of our former competitor, SMI's customer base, hence a lower revenue growth number this year. Back to you, Henrik. Thanks, Johan. So let's move over to Sobeetech. The picture you see on this slide here is from the e sport event called PUBG Grand Slam that took place in July. And this is yet another large e sport event where eye tracking was used to showcase what the competitive teams were looking at during the gameplay. And the broadcast from this event alone was seen by well over 1,000,000 unique viewers globally. Let's go to the next slide. We continue to see very strong growth in sales to external customers in TobiTech in Q3. The sales to external customers grew by 101% or 86% adjusted for currency. And this was mainly driven by strong sales growth in the PC segment as Dell started volume shipping of 2 new gaming laptops with built in Tobii tracking. The total revenue for Tobii Tech grew by 44% to 33% adjusted for currency. Again, this was driven by the external sales. The internal sales was actually somewhat lower than last year, mainly due to the transition effects around the launch of the new I series in Tobii Dynavox. Next slide, please. We also continue to make progress in Doctor. In July, we announced our Tobii Spotlight technology. Tobii Spotlight technology optimizes the possibility to process high resolution graphics only where the eye focuses, which is usually referred to as foveated rendering. Foveated rendering dramatically reduces the need for graphics processing power and is one of the key reasons why eye tracking is becoming a necessity in VR. We announced Tobii Spotlight technology in a panel on foveated rendering together with NVIDIA and HTC. Next slide. Okay. Thanks, Henrik. Copitec's external revenues doubled in the quarter, where sales in the PC segment contributed strongly. However, this quarter, we saw somewhat weaker internal sales due to the product transition in Tobii Dynavox we mentioned earlier. Overall, sales were up 44% or 33% adjusted for currency. Gross margin was down 5 points to 45%, primarily due to product mix driven by increased Pizza sales. Operating expenses were in line with previous quarter and our earlier communication around the Jobitec Organization having raised the capacity needed to execute the business plan. EBIT for the quarter was a negative $73,000,000 which was an improvement year over year. On a year to date basis, Tobitek has delivered FX adjusted external revenue growth of closer to 70% and an EBIT of negative 2 $24,000,000 Next slide, please. Moving over to the group. The group revenues showed continued growth in the 3rd quarter and increased by 8% adjusted for currency effect over last year, where Tobii Pro and TobiiTek contributed mostly to this growth. Gross margin for the quarter was 69%, down 2 points compared to last year, but in line with first half of twenty nineteen. Tobii's EBIT for Q3 was a negative $32,000,000 which was a large improvement versus last year, partly due to that we had materially lower growth in operating expenses. In fact, OpEx has been relatively flat over the past 3 quarters. On EBIT specifically, I want to call out the FX impact we had since a large part of sales and the Tobii Dynavox and TOBI Pro teams are based out of Sweden. So we have Swedish krona effect in many of our line items in the P and L. This is also the case in our financial net where it also includes positive FX effects. In the 1st 9 months of 2019, the group delivered FX adjusted revenue growth of 8% and an improved EBIT of almost SEK 40,000,000 compared to 2018. Next slide, please. As usual, let me wrap up the financial section with a look at our cash flow, which was a negative 61 in Q3. The change versus last year was driven by an improved EBIT, counteracted by an increase in our net working capital. Our cash position was $257,000,000 at the end of the quarter and excluding the SmartBox part 234. As communicated earlier, the implementation of IFRS 16 leasing at the start of 2019 impacted the balance sheet as well as our EBITDA. And you can read more about this change in our report. So this concludes the walk through of the numbers. And back to you, Henrik. All right. So repeating a quick overall summary. Revenue for the group grew by 15%, 8% adjusted for currency. Sobeidynamox reported the much improved EBIT margin of 14%. Sobeid Pro also significantly improved EBIT margin to 13%. Tobii Tec roughly doubled its external revenue. And we've recently launched 2 very important products recently, the new I Series Tobii Dynavox and Tobii Pro Fusion in Tobii Pro. With that, we're handing over to you, Ramon, and questions from the teleconference. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin the question and answer session. Our first question is from the line of Daniel Thorson. Thank you. Please ask your question. Hello, Daniel. Your line is open. You can now go ahead and ask your question. So do you hear me now? Yes, we do. Daniel from ABG. So I start with Or will that be a lag of 1 to 2 quarters? Daniel, Henrik here. From experience, we know that we see these transition effects when we launch new products, and it's always a little bit difficult to know exactly how they're going to play out. I think it's reasonable to assume that we will see some transition effects also in the Q4, which means that the truly positive effects of this new fantastic product line is something I expect to see more clearly in the beginning of the next year. Okay. That's very clear. And then one question on Pro. How large were the reversal of earn outs in the quarter? You mentioned them I tried to look in the report, I find CHF 12,000,000, but it seems to be related to Q1 2018, if I'm not wrong. Can you clarify that? Yes, I will. So the $12,000,000 related to 2018, you're correct. It was a bit more than SEK 2,000,000 that was reversed in the quarter. And it relates to the Acuity acquisition. Okay. That's very clear. So a positive effect of €2,000,000 on EBIT in Pro? I see. Correct. Okay. Excellent. And then on Tech, can you say something about the sales split and external revenue between PCVR and Nish in this quarter? It has been around the same levels in Q1 and Q2, if I'm not wrong. And now you say that piece is a bit stronger and what magnitude? Yes. No, I think that's correctly reasoned. We saw a very strong sales growth in TC. And we actually specifically in the Q3, we had a relatively weak quarter when it comes also to VR and niche applications. And VR, we're still mostly at pre revenue for volume. So it's a lot of project revenue, and they have a tendency to vary quite a bit from quarter to quarter, and it was a little bit lower, specifically in the Q3. And niche applications, we also had, for a couple of reasons, slightly lower sales in the 3rd quarter, and we expect that to pick up going forward as well. So actually, the share of sales that was PC was significantly larger than VR and niche applications in the quarter specifically. Okay. That's very clear. It sounds like it was probably more than 50% of revenues. Yes. Yes. I see. And then we another one on tech. What will happen to internal sales growth near term here? And you explained the negative effect from the I Series launch in Dynavox. Will we see a similar effect in Q4 as well? Or will that revert and grow in line with the organic growth we see in Dynavox and Pro instead? Over time, we expect the internal sales to grow roughly in line with the organic sales growth in Tobii DynaHawks and Tobii Pro. And usually, it should follow relatively closely Tobii DynaHawks and Tobii Pro development quarter by quarter as well. Okay. But it may have a negative effect in Q4 as well, it sounds like? Well, at least I think that the I think it's reasonable to assume that the positive effect from the new I series will really kick into gear in the beginning of next year, both for Tobii Dynavox as well as for internal sales for Tobii SEX. 6. Okay. Excellent. And then the final one. We saw HTC launching a separate eye tracker from 7 events and for some of its VR headsets in the quarter. Is that something you also offered but lost? Or is that outside your product portfolio? So HTC has not launched another eye tracking product. They have launched a VR headset called the Kosmos. And one of our competitors, 7 InventSun, has launched an accessory product that goes along with the Kosmos. We have chosen to not provide eye tracking accessory products to VR headsets because we do not believe in the quality of the user experience and the business model that you can deliver in that kind of solution. Okay. So that's a separate launch. And do you think that is a potential way forward for VR? Or do you think that it needs to be integrated long term? We believe that eye tracking needs to be and will be integrated. And that's why we think doing it the peripheral way would just 1st of all, it's difficult to do it with proper quality. But second, it's more of a distraction than anything else. Okay. Thank you very much. I'll jump back to the queue. Thanks, Daniel. Our next question is from the line of Sebastian Olson. Thank you. Please ask your question. Yes. Hi, Henrik and Joao. Actually, I think some of my questions have already been answered. But I have one question on Tobii Pro. You mentioned the backlog remains high. Will you please give us any indication of what the backlog is like compared to the last quarter? Is it increasing or decreasing or being flat? I think that's it. Thank you. Hi, Sebastian. So backlog is actually increasing slightly in Q3 in Tobey Pro, not materially, but some. Okay. Our next question is from the line of Thomas Graf. Thank you. Please ask your question. Hi, everyone. Thanks for taking my call. Just a quick question about furthermore on the bottlenecks you had last quarter in Dynavox and Pro. What happened this quarter that almost solved it? And have you solved the staff issue you had and so on? Could you just explain what has happened compared to last quarter? Sure. Thomas, so in TobiDynavox, we discussed the internal administrative processes for funding last quarter where we have experienced bottlenecks. And as I said, and just I think related to some of my slides, we see a slight improvement in that process. We still have work to do on that and the shorter lead time, so there's more work ahead. And then I think when you talk around bottlenecks for Tobey Pro, I think you referred to the backlog. And that was the question that the same answer as Sebastian. Yes, okay. That's slightly going up, but not by much. I don't know if you want to add anything, Henrik. No. And I think the reason why we see a larger backlog in Tobey Pro is that we continue to see a larger proportion of service orders, service business, service sales and also a larger proportion of sales that are fairly large and complex orders to big customers. And that has a tendency to have slightly longer delivery times and that increases the backlog. Okay. Okay. For Tobipro then, can we expect the same transition phase on the new ProFusions as we have for the ICS in Dynavox will be lag there as well for them? It's a good question. I don't think we really know a definitive answer to that, to be honest. It's not as apparent as it is in Tobii Dynavox where, for instance, in Tobii Dynavox when we launch a new product, in particular for North America, we have to run the funding cases through the funding a large portion of the funding cases through the funding process, the reimbursement process again, and that just takes numerous months. In Covid Pro, it's more of a normal B2B business than what happens when you launch a new product. And on the one hand, you have a positive effect because it's new, it's fresh, it's great product, people want to buy it. On the other hand, you also had a situation where you need to be out and spend a lot of time with customers who want to see and test drive the new product before they are ready to make a purchase decision or when it comes to academic researchers to submit a research grant, which can also sometimes have lead time. So difficult to say actually. Okay. Thank you. There There are no further questions at the phone. Please continue. Okay. Thank you. This is Ola. We have a lot of questions on the web. I'm not really sure we can cover all of them, but we will do our best to cover most, I can promise. So the first question, Henrik, is on ICE5. There is one participant that had expected more ICE5 wins. How are we doing on that? So first of all, we are growing our sales, both in terms of units and obviously in dollar revenue, quite dramatically now with the larger volumes that we have with Dell. As you know, Dell has gone from having Dolby eye tracking integrated into 1 gaming laptop to have it across their entire range of gaming laptops as of this summer. And this move more than triples our volumes of eye tracker sales and I-five sales with Dell specifically. It's also a great vote of confidence. We've been working for a long time together with Dell. And the fact that they now take their steps to dramatically increase volume means that they fundamentally believe in eye tracking as a key part of their product. We also see examples in other parts of our business where we have, for instance, the Nuvei series in Tobii Dynavox, which is based on the Nuvei's 5 eye tracker. Also actually the ProFusion product is a derivative of the IF5. So the different components of the IS5 with camera modules, custom image sensor, IQ Basic, etcetera, are put together into a slightly different configuration in the ProFusion. And we also have several design wins, for instance, in our niche application segment for the new IS5 as well. But of course, we are working hard to also accomplish further design wins for IL-five, both in the thesis segment as well as in the niche application segment. Okay. And there was a relating question, and that is a status update on Tobii Aware. So perhaps you can start with the PC offering in general. Yes. I think that's good as maybe a little bit of background. So in the PC segment in Solvitek, we have 3 main offerings. 1 is our own gaming peripheral, should call it Tobii Eye Tracker 4C. The other is our Tobii Aware, which is our software only entry level solution for integration in PCs. And then we have our Tobii IS5, which is our high fidelity eye tracking solution for high end gaming PCs, etcetera. We launched the first product with our new generation of Tobia Ware in the middle of this year, came to market in one of Lenovo's yoga desktop PCs. So this has been under development for some time. We see a lot of interest for Tobia Ware from PC manufacturers and are working hard to bring to market together with partners additional products with Tobiiware integrated during next year. Okay. And then we had one question here on gaming. You talked about gaming before. So when will we start make money on gaming? Why is gaming important? And when will we make money on gaming? So gaming is obviously in itself a large market opportunity for us. It's also an early adopter market for the even bigger overall PC market. And as already mentioned, we are seeing significant volume increase, more than tripling our volume now with Dell, which is specifically on gaming. We're also seeing good growth of our gaming peripheral in the market. If we continue on a positive growth trajectory like this, we do expect the gaming segment within Covitec or the gaming part of the PC segment to contribute to the result of Tovitec in the course of the next few years. Okay. Then we have some questions on VR. So why is the VR market developing so slowly? Or is it? Yes, exactly, is it? I think it's a matter of perspective. I think when we look at Doctor overall as an ecosystem, it has actually gone from nothing. Doctor virtually did not exist only 4, 5 years ago. And today, this year, it's expected that roughly 8 1,000,000 Doctor headsets will be shipped worldwide. That is a pretty fast evolution actually in development of an entirely new category of devices in the world. There is a lot of people who thought that this would move even faster and perhaps overhyped the expectations on VR as a market overall. But I think that we are seeing robust and reliable growth in the VR market. IDC estimates that the VR market is growing by 30% this year and will continue to actually accelerate growth and reach tens of millions of devices over the coming few years. In VR, eye tracking within VR, eye tracking is making rapid progress, and we expect eye tracking, as mentioned several times before, to become a de facto standard in VR over the course of the next few years. And we are working together with a large part of the entire VR industry to accomplish integration of eye tracking technology into future VR products. But also that doesn't happen overnight. This is a development that is progressing very nicely, very robustly, but it takes a few years to evolve. Okay. And back to the operator, I think we have some other incoming questions on the line. Yes, sir. We do have it's from the line of Mikael Lassen. Yes. Just a couple of quick ones. Thank you. First of all, maybe you already talked about this in the call, but I came in late. But can you explain the provisions, the changes in provisions for insurance companies that you mentioned in your report, how that is affecting you? Sure. Hi, Mikael. So in the U. S, we take provisions around how customers are paying us, I. E, bad debt and also contractual rebates with insurance companies. We take those provisions versus revenues. And we had to make a slight shift in those provisions in the quarter, and that impacted Q3 revenues with around $1,000,000 negatively. So obviously, without that, revenues would have been higher. So that is a one off that has happened now and now you have provisions in line of what is the correct level, I guess? Correct. But these are provisions that will depending on payment behavior by customers, etcetera, over time, these will move up and down. But in this quarter, we had a retroactive sort of change in terms of how we provision, which is we had a negative impact of $1,000,000 Okay. Yes. And there was another question about ToveTech and the PC side. So I'm also curious about the pipeline of interest and how that is developing. You're not mentioning this in report and would be great to hear more detail about what is happening. Hey, Mikael. Henrik here. As usual, it's difficult for us to share too much detail about the pipeline ahead of time. We have, as mentioned, we have dialogues, both dialogues with numerous players in the PC market around various upcoming products. We see continue to see strong interest for the Tobii Aware solution, and we also see clear opportunities for IS5 going forward. But I think we'll have to come back when we have more concrete information to communicate. Okay. Thanks. No further questions, sir. Please continue. Okay. There are still incoming questions on the web, so I thought we could do a couple more. So there are 2 around update status on the Doctor project that we have. We said we have sort of a handful ongoing. So what's happening there? So generally, we continue to have a handful of projects and important and serious engagements with major players in the VR ecosystem. And these are generally moving forward nicely. Integration of eye tracking into VR headsets is a relatively complex process, both from a device integration perspective and a technical development that has to happen, but also from fully incorporating eye tracking into the ecosystem of the VR manufacturers to get eye tracking experiences or benefits from foveasibran bringing more eye tracking analytics into the software ecosystem as well. So this takes careful planning and quite a lot of work. And part of that is for us, but part of it is also for our customers and partners. But overall, this is progressing nicely. And we continue to feel that we have a very strong market position when it comes to eye tracking for VR. And again, as mentioned before, that eye tracking will become over the next couple of years, more or less standard in Doctor. Okay. So then the specific question on HTC Vive Pro. How is that doing in the market? So the HTC Vive Pro is out and shipping and is getting good reviews from customers and also enticing a lot of excitement from developers that are learning how to create value from this new capability of eye tracking in VR. So I think it's very important. The HTC Vive Pro Eye in itself is not a high volume product. It's a fairly high end enterprise VR headset. So it is contributing to sales, but it doesn't in itself yet make a material bang on revenue. Hopefully, this is a precursor to numerous more products and models coming in of the ear headsets coming into the market with eye tracking as we plan. And the BiProwa is in part, is a very important tool to see the software ecosystem ahead of that. Okay. A couple of questions on the subject of financial targets. How do you feel about them today? And are you more comfortable today than you were a year ago? So overall, we feel that we have appropriate financial targets for Tobey. And in particular, we have a very strong focus on reaching our overarching group target of becoming profitable in 2020. We see consistently also in this quarter growing sales, continued high gross margins and essentially a flat cost base and on a trajectory that takes us to profitability in 2020. Okay. There is a very visionary question here, I think, or perhaps it's not. When will we have eye tracking in mobile phones? Good, an interesting question. Difficult to say. We do not currently focus a lot of proactive efforts on the smartphone segment. One of the reasons for this is that although we believe that there are exciting benefits and use cases for eye tracking in smartphones, we believe that the ecosystem needs some time to really validate and figure out how to implement and make use of those. And therefore, we think this market may take some time to develop. Compare that to other markets like VR where the benefit in use cases is extremely strong and very apparent. And therefore, we prefer to put a higher proactive focus on that type of market and opportunity. Also same thing in niche applications where a lot of our customers have exceptionally strong value from use of eye tracking. But that said, we do believe that eye tracking will become commonplace in smart phones over time as well. But it's quite difficult to know on what timeline. Okay. So there are some other things on our agenda soon. So I think we'll have to stop there for today. So thank you, everyone, for listening in, and back to you, Ramal. So that does conclude our conference for today. Thank you all for participating. You may all