Earnings Call: Q2 2021

Jul 28, 2021

Hello, and welcome to the VEF Second Quarter Earnings Call for 2021. Today, I am pleased to present David Nangle, CEO and Henrik Stierlund, CFO. For the first part of this call, all participants will be in a listen only mode and afterwards, there will be a question and answer session. I will now hand over to David. Please begin your meeting. Super. Thank you very much. Good morning, good afternoon, everybody, and welcome to our Q2 first half results presentation. I'll be working on slides on the webcast, which are also available on our website. And I'll go directly into Slide number 2 on this and give you a a summary of what's been happening and the key events of the quarter. And then within the presentation, which will be 10 to 15 minutes, I'll double click on each of these key points, Give a bit more color and then open up for Q and A in the end as per usual. But I think the key summary for us in Q2 or into the first half of this year is, it's been busy, But this is good. And albeit from a NAV point of view, Q1 uplift, Q2 give or take sideways, We set a very strong foundation for the remainder of the year and looking ahead, especially when we look at some of the key names of the portfolio. So the value creation that we see for the performance of the portfolio companies. We're in good base to start to realize that. So confidence is there within the team and within the portfolio. Specifically, The key event for the quarter was Confio, our 2nd biggest holding, nearly 20% of the NAV. They had $125,000,000 Series B fundraise. For all our companies, one thing is obviously performance, things like Compu and CreditAss just by having very strong performance. The second thing is access to capital and obviously, it's good valuations. Compu is following in the path of credit tasks and accessing size Capital from Quality Institutions and we took part in that round putting $20,000,000 to work. Credit paths are lighthouse investments, it's our biggest Added points of 42% of NAV and has added an exciting M and A leg to what is a clear growth underlying secured lending story. Secured lending book is still growing 2x year on year as per the number this week, but I've also added size acquisition in the insurance space, adding that to the ecosystem and other bolt on acquisitions in marketplaces and secured lending. So exciting that story where we try to get a longer lifetime value per customer with new products coming through. But it's not about the big 2, but not only about the big 2, albeit that's A lot of investors focus on it and it's natural given it's 60% for NAV. The next three names are in very good form. And as we would say, JustPay, mobile payments in India, Jumo, Mobile Money Marketplace in Africa and Transvergo in the digital remittance space in Eastern Europe. I'll focus on all those 3 just to give you a bit of color on trends and kind of key highlights there. We were active in Q2 and also after the end of Q2, a new investment in Abi as the financial wellness Salary Advanced Base, we're already in that in Mexico and Brazil with a seed investment there with a quality founder called Omer. I'm sorry, we led that round very early stage. And we just closed our 1st embedded FinTech investment, which I'll get into with a $10,000,000 check into Black Book in the trucking marketplace space to the payments core business in there. And ESG always at the 4. And I think the key highlights in this quarter were fully closing our move finalizing our move to Sweden from Bermuda. It had been in the works, it had been signed off at the AGM, but obviously all the technical parts were closed in July. So we are now Swedish at a HoldCo level and also a new board member officially came on board, Hannah Leukenen, ex former East Capital and many other Board of FinFund, great TV and a great person and experience to have on our Board. We're very happy to have her. And then also final point on Angie Balsso, a long standing holding of ours when we've marked down and over time, I think quite achieved what we had hoped, and we exited that position. After the end of the quarter, we sold to Pickpay in Brazil, a digital payments company. And it will be we drove down position in Q2 to 0. We actually ended up receiving approximately $3,000,000 as our part of the exit proceeds. So a kind of a nice positive kicker and to a story which didn't work out as planned that we can get into that. Moving on to the next slide, a bit more detail on numbers, What you need to know from the results, NAV at the end of the quarter $404,000,000 it's up a couple of percent versus year end, flattish quarter on quarter. On a SEK per share basis, not for sure, on a SEK basis, 4.12 Off similar year to date for the first half, down slightly quarter on quarter. A little bit of that is currency move and a little bit of that is Extra share count given our LTIP movements. But I think what you'll see with our NAV, which is the next slide, Slide number 4, It's not this isn't mad up escrow grows 1%, 2% every quarter into perpetuity. You get gap ups and step ups Then in periods of 2 or 3 quarters where things go to the side, once everything is performing as planned in terms of investing in good companies and then delivering growth And in value, which feeds through to our valuations and obviously the funding rounds that they do. From an Investor Relations perspective, share price, It continues to track NAV, albeit in the last 6 to 12 months. We're now in that plusminus NAV category where I think the market is starting to pay respect our size, north of $400,000,000 market cap, no longer a micro cap or a small cap And growing. Also, we're in a very in focus space, FinTech, emerging markets and private space. And our track record, obviously, of value creation It's no longer short term 1 or 2 years. It's now 5 or 6 years of 25% to 30% IRRs. So the track record is shown and proven At least to date. And then our biggest holding credit pass is on a path towards IPO, has recently raised capital at a $1,750,000,000 post money valuation People are starting to look through some of these aspects of our portfolio and now we're touching into the premium to NAV category, which tends to happen At this point in the cycle for a company like ours, and I understand why the market does that. Portfolio summary, Just a quick hit is where CreditPath is still the core concentration in that the name and very comfortable with that top two names north of 60% and top 5 are 78%. So there's a concentration, but we seek concentration. We've always said that. Cash position at the end of Q2 was $18,900,000 Now we're on 15 holdings now in the total portfolio and that includes Givol, so there'll be 14 after that exits, But doesn't include back books, so it's back to 15. So moving parts to 15 is the holding number at this point in the cycle. Moving on to some of the micro level stories as per the summary, CreditAssets, it's always worth focusing on CreditAssets, just given its importance to us as a firm, our NAV, our share price, not to belittle the other names, but CreditPath put out their Q2 numbers on Monday, continues to roll ahead in terms of origination growth, very strong growth, maybe 5x, 5x to 6x year on year for Q2 versus Q2 last year, albeit out of normal COVID year. But year on year for the full year, we're talking 2x slightly north of that of growth originations. So this doubling of the portfolio feeds into a doubling of the revenue, give or take, upfront and recurring. At the quarter 2 headline, our top line revenue numbers of $170,000,000 high East, which is well north of $30,000,000 You start to annualize that and you're looking at 2x growth in that and you can see how the valuation of credit assets feeds off that growth Once the market multiples hold and credit has keeps on delivery. And I think what's where we've got more excited with credit has of late and It's still harder to forecast because you're putting the pieces together, but credit pass as a strategy is at its core around security and cured collateral of home, car and payroll, the lending against that as core monetization products, but through organic and inorganic means, we started to add new parts of the puzzle, the recent acquisition and insurance base of Amannuko Seguros as an insurance angle to this. And you added out Volt Moving to motorbikes away from cars and B Credit is an extra secured lending for homes. So we're starting to get an inorganic Growth story plugged into credit is not yet reflected in the numbers. And we're seeing that in a lot of big fintechs where the bigger boys are getting bigger and trying to consolidate some of the core product offerings with some of the smaller names in the market. That's very exciting. Confio is one that we're I guess The confidence continues to grow on this one. This is a it's becoming the leading digital financial services platform for small businesses in Mexico, brutally underserved in Mexico. We've had a good run at Compio in terms of The lending product in the last 6 to 12 months, they started to organically and inorganically add ERP, so it's a SaaS revenue product, But also payments, so we're getting a volume revenue product and there's more to come on that. And hence, the acquisition or the financial raise as part of that was key in the Cyrodiene funding round. We're also looking to move to full banking status either through a license or acquisition And that's all work in progress, but very similar to the credit task rounds and uplifts. Compu is one that we took down during COVID, Naturally, a small business credit book in Mexico during COVID, but as they recovered and started to grow, and we obviously started to market to model that up and then that Reflected or kind of signified in the Series D funding round of which we which is super pro rata effectively because we really like A, the business and B, the valuation. And the interesting thing with Compu is that the shareholder base of Compu is actually very similar to that at Creditas. So the KAZEX, the SoftBank, Quona Capital, a very similar shareholder base across both. Moving into the new investments that we've done during the quarter. Abi Finance, I think this is for you, the investors think Minu or Sherpa copy paste replicate, but in Pakistan, We're in the salary advanced financial wellness place and we really do like that space, that product as a part of the business in itself and the economics, but also its lead generation potential for You can do with that business. We went very early stage in this one, Seed, specifically because of the founder, Omer Ansari. So we know a long We said we will back him when he was building his FinTech impact. And after much work and partly with us through portfolio names and people that we know in the BC community, He launched this business successfully so far in that market early days, but we've got big hopes. And for that 1, our second investment into and our 3rd in the financial wellness space. So we're getting to know both very strong, very well. And Black Book, this happened only last week. We Thought it would be as close at some point in August, but this is a move for Veth into embedded FinTech. Now we stay true to our roots and our focus of FinTech And that's the core of what we do and that's our edge, our expertise across emerging markets. But you've seen we started to spread our wings a bit in terms of taking smaller stakes in some businesses as opposed to only going for size and board seats. And now we're moving into the more broader embedded Fintech space. And I guess I said this before, but what you get in a lot of segments like health, education, mobility, as you get An embedded fintech offering or aspect of its payments credit insurance. We've been on the hunt for this, looking for this because some of the best The future of finance is coming from everywhere and we need to be open for that and open to opportunity to put our capital to work. And so embedded Fintech is a big part of the company's Business Growth Revenue Stream, we take a deep dive and look. And this led to the investment in Black Book where we've co invested with some of our partners in the Indian market at ExCel and Goldman Sachs and IFC Sequoia, people who've invested elsewhere with who are very comfortable Wellington, who's an investor of ours also in this name Put us onto this name. We got deep on it. And effectively, it's a payments company in disguise, not payments around fuel, payments around tolls and in the marketplace for all So, big part of the revenue, big part of their growth and obviously the trucking marketplace platform on top of that is the upside to where we see a fast growth FinTech company coming through. Touching on some of our other portfolio, but I wanted to do this because I do spend a lot of time on credit assets and comp view for very obvious reasons. But there's been some good touch points on some of the other top 5 names in the portfolio. I think with TransferGo, not so much with itself and there's a lot of positives to say on TransferGo, but It's mainly wise or was formerly transfer wise that the leading digital remittance play list recently close to a £10,000,000,000 market Cap at this point. I think interesting enough, the forward multiple on this forward multiple of revenues is up 15 to 16 times given the move in this. I'm not saying the market is right or should be biased at that, but you pull back to how word value and transfer go, which is growing as or more fast, albeit in a specific region, which is emerging Europe. We're valuing that in the 4x to 6x forward revenue space. So a lot more conservative in our valuations versus market for something like this. We get a lot of questions on this with frothy valuations in the market. How are we buying our portfolio versus some of those names? And we try and be logical, conservative and work with our orders on that front. And also JustPay mobile payments in India. And I think some of the numbers on JustPay, it's mouthwatering in terms of their annualized payment flow is $50,000,000,000 now. They do real quantum of mobile payments in India. They're sitting inside 250,000,000 smartphones in the SDKs for Amazon, Uber, Flip and the growth is comfortably 2x plus year on year in terms of volumes revenue. So this is one of the more exciting fast growth in one of the more interesting stories in our portfolio. And then Jumo, Jumo is one we've been getting more confident on over the last 2 or 3 quarters after being conservative in terms of Performance and valuation, it's really started to hit its stride. It's now doing $3,000,000,000 plus in terms of annual lending flow through the business. The majority of that 90% plus is with partners. So it's a real marketplace for loans with quality partners, both in the telco side in Africa And on the banking side. And we're cash flow positive as well at Jumo. So, we like the nice mix in the portfolio where Mevo is positive and the bottom line, Jumo is give or take breakeven. Names like Mevo, Justpay are very controllable on that front and everything else is on a nice path to breakeven or positive bottom line. So It all kind of feeds in nicely to some mean faster growth and deeper burn and some closer to that magic earnings and bottom positive bottom line moment. Last slide before I wrap up is on the ESG front. Two things to mention here. 1 was rehitting the Swedish Moved from Bermuda. It was closed in the month of July. And with that, we have a new ticker for trading, VFAB as opposed to VF Elle, the time was right to move our jurisdiction and our structure, which ticked a lot of boxes given our listing or some of our investor base, part of our team, etcetera, history there. And we're very happy to have made that move and it's a positive ESG has moved for the longer term. And then finally on the Board front, I'm very happy to welcome Hannah. She's now very live. We're on the order committee this week, on a Board call this week, Someone I know and respect for a long time, but also has held board seats and hold board seats and funds at East Capital and Rand Funds at East Capital across emerging markets in Georgia with the Georgia story, a FinFund. So a great Board member, brings lots of experience and value in terms of investing, valuation, ethics, ESG, portfolio management, Emerging Markets, I could go on. But then I guess as a sign of it, just adding we've been adding a lot to the team gradually over time and in the last 6 to 12 months with Alison coming on and now Hannah. It's a great mix skill set and booster to the Board, which obviously helps us as a team. I'll wrap up then last slide before I open up for questions. What would I say to investors at this point of the year? I think the NAV is in a strong place after many quarters years of growth, but I think the basis is there for more. So our confidence, I think at this point of the year versus start of the year is higher in terms of where we see NAV going and that's a function of how we see our companies and portfolio doing going forward. And CreditAss team continues to be If you want to know one thing about BEST, you need to know Creditas is becoming more open, more disclosure. The company themselves are on more investor roadshows and conference The move towards IPO and that allows investors to look through to 42% of our NAV and portfolio and growing. And that's a company which is planning towards IPO Next year, that's the plan. We'll see where that goes in terms of timing. And is the company that could need more capital before then, as a lot of the bigger fintechs are growing faster and consolidating in that market. I've talked about Compu, which effectively is our next credit asset in the making, not like for like in terms of business, but like for like in terms Value Creation, and we're very excited about that one now. And then I touched on Justpay, Jumon transfer ago, and that gets you up to 78% of our which we feel very strong and confident about, no disrespect address, which is the size of importance. And ESG continues to be key for us. We're learning. We know our direction of travel. We continue to improve on this front. And I think our move to Sweden and on the board front are indicative of where we're going with this. And this generally the fintech theme has momentum, but we're not getting caught up in some of this frothiness and headlines I'm in the market. We don't have to. We're 6 years doing this. We're comfortable with our own skin. We're long a portfolio of very good FinTech assets And we've got a pipeline, but even doing nothing versus having to invest, we can create a lot of value from here, which makes puts us in a very strong position F and A Future. And I'll stop there, operator, and I'll happily pass over to our audience if there's any questions at this time. Thank We have a question from the line of Hermann Wartoft from Pareto Securities. Please go ahead. Hi. Good afternoon, David, and thanks a lot for that presentation. I have a couple of questions. So as you said, we can always talk more about trade tasks. I think We'll start with that one. It seems like they have been really speeding up their investments and M and A activity recently here with 3 Initiative or investments announced in the recent months. I was wondering if you could just elaborate a little bit more on how these Three tied together, if I understand it correctly. They are both or they are all connected to the auto segment maybe specifically. If you can talk a little bit about that and also with the Volanti acquisition as well. If you could just give a brief introduction to that one. It would be helpful. Yes, sure. Hi, David. How are you? Look, I think generally speaking, what we're seeing is the whether it's Brazil, India, U. S, The bigger FinTech companies are starting to get bigger. They're the ones with the most access to capital with the best teams and skill sets And most of them have delivered in one key segment in one key country and are now thinking of more. And I'd like to point to many with Stone or PAGS or new bank in Brazil and credit has very much is of that ilk. And we need to be logical around this because you've been an organic growth story so far, but Credit has always had a mind for this to add more to its ecosystem. It did initially going from home back lending then to auto then to payroll. So you got 3 aspects or 3 security collaterals to work with. Then it was all about lending against these collaterals. But the idea was always What more can we do? We give a loan, then we can give a repeat loan to a second loan. Look at Alto, just the ecosystem is probably the deepest or broadest in terms of Work in progress so far. Credit One is lending against cars as a collateral, now they're lending for cars. With the insurance acquisition, they're looking to Sure. The cars that lend against with the Volt acquisition, they're looking at moving into the motorbike space, Lending Fur, Lending Fur, and Electronic Vehicles. So it's really adding more product suites around the core collateral and being with Customer over the life of that collateral. So some of these things are done inorganic, so some of these things are organically And CreditAss, the speed to delivery around staying out an idea is phenomenal, but also there is opportunity of doing these in an inorganic basis and making acquisitions. Some of the acquisitions we touched on them like Bcreddy is in the home equity space, but that was effectively an acquihard. They liked the team a lot. With a much smaller version of what CreditAss is doing on the home equity space, that it bought the business to book, but effectively to hire the team. And the leader of that business and now the Head of Home Equity at Creditas. Credit2 was a company they bought in the payroll lending space, not letting the fast track to move into payroll Lending and brought the team on board initially for that as well. So there were kind of acquisitions that brought a product suite and fast tracked or actually higher aspects of them. I think insurance for Manito Segura is much bigger than that. And I just say Herman, it's really on the auto space initially. It's auto. They want to be for every card they lend against, they have a relationship with the customer, every card they lend for, they automatically want to be doing the insurance without whether it's broken initially Moving into full stack insurance now with Minutos Seguros. I'm involved with the way of getting into the motorbike space and getting into lending That vehicle, which is a very captive market with Honda and Yamaha in the Brazilian market. And now they're also moving into the marketplace that you alluded to as well. The marketplace for buying and selling these products. Once again, car seems to be the playground that's had the most progress so far. Whether you're borrowing against your car, whether you're borrowing to buy a car, whether you're looking to buy a car, when you're insuring your car, CreditAssist once, instead of being once and done in terms of a product, they want to be with you in your life cycle through that product. And what that will do is Two things they're religious on. 1 is reducing CAC, so you're talking to customers across the different spectrums. You can get all these customers in at lower CAC over time. And The second thing is increasing lifetime value. So it's not a once and done product in terms of a loan. You want a loan, you want a repeat loan, you want an insurance product, With that person as they're looking to sell their car, it's a lifestyle, lifecycle increase of value Proposition. But also as we're seeing a lot of the headlines, there's a lot of work being done at home, there's a lot of work being done on payroll. And then we're just talking Brazil, whereas Mexico is kind of like press territory as well. Yes, I understand. Perfect. And just to what extent do you think that these acquisitions were planned in CreditAss' kind of original plan when they raised capital before Yes, at the end of 2020. And I mean, do you think that they will need to be canceled soon again if they continue this M and A activity? Yes. Look, I think they were broadly in the plan when CreditAssist raised money in Q4, but the plan at that time was very clear. It was capital raise that will get them through to IPO in Q4 sorry, in the second half of next year. But the opportunities to make probably More acquisitions quicker than originally planned has come about. More capital has been put to work. And at the same time, the company is growing at a healthy clip, albeit Broadly in line with expectations, which is always good to see. But it just does make the management, like the Board around the management, ask Questions around waiting for the IPO moments, building the war chest ahead of that, so you got flexibility of when you do it and also gives you more capital to work with In what are still good markets. So I think the possibility is there that credit has could raise more capital before IPO, but nothing is nothing set, nothing is planned, nothing is on the table. It's just one of the things where we're seeing a lot of the later stage FinTech Companies moving towards an IPO, but they tend to They can be opportunistic in the market and grab that incremental capital to give them flexibility around what they do and when. Yes. Yes, sounds good. And then just moving on to Blackbaud, I was wondering if you can present this asset in a little bit more detail. It seems It seems like payments was a large part of what you drew to this asset. What kind of others financial services do you see Could be added and what kind of growth expectations you have for this asset going forward? Yes. No, it's fair. Look, To say Beth is investing in a trucking platform, there's a little bit of what the hell is going on here. And this is something we've been deliberating at a board level and a team level and we've looked at a bunch of different areas and education has been a big one. We've looked at mobility. We've been talking with our partners at BNB. And just seeing how important financial services is to a lot of companies, which are not necessarily financial services In their initiation, and I will assume that in China with Ant, the Alibaba Group, which wasn't financial services at outset, but Ended up being the number one consumer in SME Financial Services play via the Ant Group. And we see it as our mobility in Southeast Asia with Gojek and Grab Financial Services is a big and growing part of what they are, but they started out as mobility platform. So it's really just opened our eyes and ears and our and for looking for these names, but we don't look for something that's got 1% fintech or might have fintech in the future, but it has to be important to what they are today and the growth story. And just to round off a general point, CreditAss is a great example of a fintech company first and foremost, and now it's becoming embedded fintech as it's a marketplace Cars that's effectively building motorbikes. There's a lot more to that story, so it's kind of backing out in the net of fintech space. So it's all kind of Evolving interestingly for us as investors. And BlackBook was actually introduced to us by the team at Wellington who are investors of ours, they're partners of ours invested in JustPay And names like Sequoia and Excel were also in this name. But at its core, it's a trucking platform. Demand and supply for trucking needs is quite a It has 1,200,000 plus truckers and their individual trucks and small truck owners across India. So The marketplace aspects the online need to digitize this process and connect that demand for trucks and logistics into supply Was very much needed in India and BlackRock was ahead of the curve on building out that trucking platform, mobile based and digital. But at the same time, the folks on one side of the platform, which is the truckers, it's something that's got a lot of traction. And that's being the in truck App of choice for truckers. So we have everything in one place. So you can the owners of trucks can track their trucks logistics wise. They can pay for fuel and get discounts across the board, tolls, tolls everywhere in India, moving from cash to digital in that I'm having it in app and just naturally passing through calls or something and you can get group discounts in that. So it's a big part And of what the revenue stream is today. And we've had a lot of traction on tolls and that gets a lot of good for customer acquisition on the trucking side. And fuel is a big thing. We're still early days and that can be a big thing. Once we add that to tolls, I think the marketplace around just Buying and selling of parts for trucks and remodel of trucks and it very much can be embedded in. But I think the tolls and the fuels are very key. And this is all aside from them building the plan is to be a very successful size marketplace in trucking. And we've seen names, Freeport in the U. S, which are very That's on this multibillion dollar company, same in China and India Black Book is at the front or the front foot And of building something similar in India, albeit we've hung our hat and our valuation around the FinTech aspect as they keep on delivering on that side of the Placing the trucks in FinTech, this will be a very good investment. If they also deliver and being the number one marketplace, it will be a super investment. Yes, perfect. Thanks a lot for that. And then just a final question from my side. Is it possible to give some kind of rough update or estimate on how you view the total funding need in the portfolio at the moment. I think you mentioned Justpay, Jumo and TransferGo as being well placed to secure more funding here during the rest of the year. So yes, if you can just give a number or rough estimate, that would be very helpful. Thank you. Yes, that's fair. Look, we kind of ended Q2 at $19,000,000 in the And we've got a commitment for $10,000,000 to black book, which hasn't gone out the door yet, albeit we've got $3,000,000 coming in from GEA BOLT. So we're getting low on capital, similar to previous points in our life. At this stage, we look beside Pipeline is always busy and we look inside the portfolio, credit task could be something, could be this year, could be next year, could be IPO, but We've got to be mentally ready for something like that potentially happening, named Likely to raise Justpay, Jumo, Magnetis In the portfolio and either one that we can take part in or not, but if you put all the numbers together of what they're raising, if we took our rights, if we wanted to, You're in the $30,000,000 to $40,000,000 in the next 6 to 12 months. That's all ahead of us in portfolio besides outside portfolio. So similar to last quarter, as we told investors, we're open to capital as we have been in the past. And we're exploring all our options of how we go about that debt equity timing. We feel very comfortable in our shareholder base with debt markets, where our share price is, where everything That we could do something in the next in the not too distant future. So it's all kind of there for us given capital needs The pipeline of teams that we have to do. And we're just we're sitting back planning, talking to the markets, investors, and it will be logical ex Any exits and there's always exits potentially out there. Some of our companies are always under offer from different names because of what they are And we could sell secondary shares as well. So we have a nice secondary shares in some of the companies that we have, which are doing raises. We could go the other way and take money off the table. So we've got a few different avenues of releasing capital or getting fresh capital to keep on doing things we want, should we want to. Perfect. Sounds very good. Okay, that's it for me. Thanks a lot and have a continued nice summer. We have a question from the line of Joachim Gennel from DNB Markets. Please go ahead. Thank you very much for that and good afternoon, Dave. So I think Hermann's questions covered the most helpful topics. But perhaps can you talk a bit more about, I I mean, what we have seen recently with these more seed type like investments because I mean, of course, it Secures your seat at the table, and then it makes sense to partner with a strong local business to get access to those types of investments. But I mean, in terms of NAV accretion And also, I mean, we'll be able to exercise your, call it, the ownership model via Board representation, etcetera. What's the strategy from a 3 year time frame with regards to those Is it to double down on the winners or and basically risk mitigation? Or can you talk a bit more about that? Yes. No, that's very welcome. Thanks for your question. Look, I think we've as a team and as a Board, we sat back and we've debated We had a one dimensional, albeit very successful approach of taking 10% to 20% stakes in Board seats and being active investors in everything we do. But we did find we were missing deals as a result of that because somebody else was leading around and we didn't take part whatever reason, because we're getting a small stake and it didn't fit our mandate, our own set mandate. And also there was companies at earlier stages Or even later stages where we could get a small piece, and it made a lot of sense to us either to get in early. It didn't quite tick all our boxes, but it was very close to it and we're very close to the founder and believed. So the idea of making a smaller stake made a lot of sense. So I think what you've seen with Rupik in India, Minu In Mexico and now Black Book, it does kind of stretch those limits a bit of what we used what we did historically versus what we're doing right now. I think whether it's something where core position in 10% plus or whether it's a 1% position, if It's working. I think the general rule is we will try and get as much capital into it as possible. Rupik was a deal that we really wanted to lead and we couldn't. So we were happy to take a smaller stake with a view of doing more in the future. I think Minu in Mexico is in that category whereby we like the salary advance financial wellness space. We love NEMA As a founder, we're actually doing our capital raise at the time in Q4. We were very busy on that price. And We agreed with Nemat to go ahead with a different fund to lead that round and we took a small piece with a view of doing the next round should everything deliver. And so that kind of fits that category. And I think Black Book is It's late days now, so we're talking it's a $1,000,000,000 plus minus company and we own 1% of it with our $10,000,000,000 check. And also it's an embedded fintech. So you've got 2 kind of Categories of is this what left us. I think it was nice to come into a name like that as a later stage name, which gives you a lot more comfort in terms What is it? The product market fit, the traction, the travel, the team has proven out as opposed to we did Abi, which is day 1 kind of material. And also going in there with a lot of investors that we know. So moving our 1st embedded FinTech investment with a lot of core investors locally and internationally That we know and like and stress tested the case with them as well as with the management. So it was very nicer and easier for us to do a smaller check there. And then you also have to cross reference that you'll keep the capital that we have and our ability to write that bigger check-in this round for maybe Black Book That we couldn't. So we're very happy to be involved, very happy to get into an embedded Fintech play. And as with everything else, we're happy Build that position from here should the opportunity arise and should it deliver. Understood. And Can you talk a bit about the process here when it comes to exiting Guevosu? And I mean, Yes. Basically, over what time frame has that option been evaluated? And also, I think when we spoke earlier This year, you said that, I mean, there are, I mean, a number of your portfolio holdings that are in talks with potential partners for an And what changes to that comment based on where we stand now? Yes. Now look, I think we always like our companies to be on the exit footing. We don't need want we don't necessarily want them to exit, but it's great. Your better companies are always Talking to bigger partners about exiting, getting a filter price. They're looking at IPOs in the future. So it's not a wake up someday and you decide we want to sell this business. This is an ongoing process and you are in control as opposed to the market being in control as much as you can once you deliver. Look, I think the Gaborto exit specifically, it's not a classic exit. I think that's very clear versus what we've done in the past with Think of Or EZCO, so it's not bragging rights to exit in terms of 60% IRRs. And given where we had the position at Q1, I think about that marked at $4,800,000 and we'll get about $3,000,000 in the door. I guess the direction of travel in NAV is that one. I guess the one good thing it does is Kind of a test to us in our true and fairness of NAV and how we value things on a rolling basis, both on the way up and on the way down. Gheeb also had A few people looking at over the last 12 months, so it had been talking to suitors. And this is one that I guess we got very conservative with our NAV mark in Q2 and at the end of Q2. Just seeing that from a Board from an auditor point of view, it was kind of like Let's just really get conservative here. We marked it down to 0, albeit we had a couple of offers in the fires at that time. And then one of them came through with PigPay. So it's a nice ending to the overall story. It's a good feel for how we're true and fair with NAV, Clearly, it wasn't a good investment for us and for our shareholders, and we're very aware of that and lots of lessons learned. But I think outside of PIP also, we talked about credit task on a path towards IPO, Compu would like I think it's doing something similar, albeit with a lag. Jumo as well is quite a unique business and that's more in the IPO category than the M and A on average, I would think. And in other businesses, TransferGo could be right for consolidation, especially with Wise now listing. I could see Remitly Financially listing in the U. S. Has been storied out there on that front. So, and the bigger names like Western Union and Deepgram. So, there definitely is a consolidation coming In digital remittance as there is in payments and same with Justpay in India on the mobile payments front. There's a lot bigger groups looking at it, its product suite I'm going to deliver it and you can see that being solid at some point in the future versus IPL. That's just me talking and thinking as we sit here. So Under the smaller end of the portfolio, there has been offers for some of our smaller companies, not the right price, not the right time. As you've seen what CreditAss is doing, some of these can get consolidated into bigger groups, We kind of evaluate everything as we go along. But the main thing for me when we're sitting with our founders at board level is we're always thinking about this. We're reactive or proactive and to make opportunities happen and then we decide. Very clear. And just Final for me. I mean, with the capital raised in Confio, would it be fair to assume that they could follow a similar As creditors have done and really accelerate its M and A program or what can you say there? That needs to be, I mean, continent in order to create more of an ecosystem that is complete for Quantior. Yes. No, I think it's a fair question and point. I think it will follow a similar path as credit Lee on the front foot. There is a small acquisition on the ERP front in Q4 of last year, and that got their feet wet with fast tracking of product lines via M and A as opposed to building In house. And they're looking at similar when it comes to payments, different aspects of payments and also in terms of getting their hands on a banking license as opposed to waiting their way through the application process. So all those work streams are on the go. Nothing is guaranteed and no time line, but I can see Compu being similar to what CreditAss is doing. You have to be careful here because it is a skill set. It does take your eyes off the focus of building something organically. But now Pompeo is in a strong Capital position. And I think similar to credit ask, given they've made a small acquisition that's worked out very well as they've got to apply for more. Great. That's Thank you very much and yes, have a very nice continued summer. You too Joakim. Thanks for that. There are no further Questions are understood at this time. So I hand back to the speakers for any closing remarks. Excellent. Thanks, operator. Look, thank you everybody for Obviously, it's mid summer. So it's very appreciative of you taking the time to listen in and to engage with us as always. Any questions after this is always reached out to myself directly or Henrik Stendmund, our CFO and Head of IR. We're always happy to answer any questions or hear any comments that you have. But enjoy the rest of your summer and we'll be talking soon. Thank you.