Earnings Call: Q1 2021

Apr 28, 2021

Thank you, Harrias. Good morning, good afternoon, everybody, and welcome to our Q1 results conference call. I've got a slide deck in front of me. It's on our website, and it's also been distributed to you, the investor, ahead of this call. What I'll do over the next 10 to 15 minutes is I'll go through a summary of our results, our journey year to date, a bit of history and a bit of looking forward. And as per usual, I'll put you on some of our new assets on ESG and the performance in general and also then open up at the end to any questions that you, the investors or analysts, have for me on anything to do with our company. But to kick off on Slide number 2, just a summary of how we see life at best as a function of these results and looking ahead. I think front and center is our NAV mark. It continues its upward journey. Fresh highs, we're now north of $400,000,000 in NAV at the company. And this is a company that started over 5 years ago, less than $100,000,000 of NAV and market cap. So if you had a gradual incremental positive rise in value creation and that continues into 2021. And the start of the year has been strong for us as a company, and that's really reflected through our key holdings in Creditas and Compio. Creditas is north of 40% of our NAV and the two assets together are nearly 60% of our NAV. So their performance is key to our performance quite naturally. And CreditAss off the back of its Q4 fundraising, where we raised $250,000,000 of fresh capital at a multi $2,000,000,000 valuation, Has really been busy delivering on the core, which I'll talk about on the lending front, also broadening out The offering that I have across is 3 pillars of home, auto and payroll, which is key to its collateralized lending product. And Compu as well, it's their 2nd biggest asset, but it's Growing faster than credit cards from a smaller base and from a Mexican rebound is also on the fast track to becoming the leading SME player across the broader financial space, thinking credits, thinking payments and also ERP in one pull offering for the underserved SME. So it's very exciting what's going on there. We added new companies to the portfolio in Q2 sorry, in Q1. Obviously, the work had been coming through from last year. We're now up to 14 holdings in the portfolio, 16 investments in total with 2 exits. The 2 new names are Rupik and Minu, one's in India, one's in Mexico. And I'll get into them as we go through the presentation. FinTech in general is just gathering a momentum across the board and we've been seeing this over the years that we've been investing, But it does seem a lot of excitement, a lot of focus, a lot of people raising, a lot of money looking at the space into 2021. We're sitting in that, Watching it, I'll be as busy as we've ever been on the pipeline front, very comfortable with the fact that we're long a portfolio of fintech assets across emerging markets, which We put us in a great position to benefit from this environment and as picky as ever in what we add to the portfolio. On the ESG front And just continuing on that theme, we talked a little bit in the last quarter about the sustainable work that our companies do within the portfolio and it's a key part of what we are, the work that our companies do in markets like Brazil, Africa, Mexico on sustainable finance, affordable finance, financial inclusion. But also on the G front more this quarter, we've been doing a lot of work on our domicile and looking to move our domestic our holdco from Bermuda to Sweden, which is obviously a positive aspect for us as a company and us in our sustainable trends. Moving on to Slide number 3. Just some numbers. Specifically, we grew our NAV quarter on quarter, NAV per share Over 10% in SEK and our NAV in dollars approximately 4.3% and in, as I say, in U. S. Dollars and obviously, there's a currency move with the SEK slightly weakening versus dollar quarter on quarter, so we always get that mismatch. So continued growth. On a cash front, we're sitting on slightly north of $44,000,000 at the end of the quarter, given the investments we did in Q1 and late last year, but obviously off the back of the money that we raised, just north of $60,000,000 in our placements in Q4 of last year. Slide number 54 sorry, excuse me, just an evolution of our NAV over time and more recently during the COVID year that was last year and into the recovery of the second half last year and the Q1 of this year. So strong performance across the board continues. As I say, our NAV has touched north of $400,000,000 we do have the red bar in there, which is the raise. We did the first raise we've done since inception in Q4 last year. But it's a continued growth across the board from a portfolio point of view, which obviously feeds into our NAV. On Slide 5, just to reiterate, If you look at this from a portfolio and a NAV split point of view, there is concentration in our portfolio. It tends to happen in investment companies like ours historically. It would have been Thinkov, then it would have been EasyCo in Turkey and today it's Creditas into Compio. Our bigger names do tend to break out. We tend to get as much capital into them as They perform and then eventually they move towards the exit and the cycle hopefully repeats. And that's what we have at CreditAss at the moment being north of 40% of our NAV And obviously, it's a big part of our pie and delivering. Beyond that, now we have 2 assets in India, 6 in Brazil, 2 in Mexico. So There really is the top tier markets that we're looking at and focusing on, and they're starting to dominate in terms of size and shape of the portfolio geographic mix. And as I said, on the cash front, we're sitting in a comfortable position for our capital needs as of today and what we see in the portfolio, albeit that's an evolving story in terms of what comes in from exits and obviously what goes out as we look to convert pipeline as we go. And getting into 1 or 2 of the stories, it's obviously important to talk about Creditas given its size and shape for us as a company. And I think one of the positive things was many positive things about Creditas, but what's key is that we can share information. And this started in Q4 of 2020, but it's continued into Q1 2021. In terms of CreditAss Now, it's the company that's grown up. It's a late stage company. It's on a path towards IPO. It's becoming more transparent. And that's the natural evolution of Stories in our portfolio versus some of the earlier stage ones, have left the show and are in more competitive private dynamic markets and hence aren't sharing as much as we can within my credit. So great that we can share this. It's great that there is transparency on north of 40% of our NAV. And it gives you to shareholder And investors, something to grab, put your teeth into and have a look, extrapolate and see exactly what we're doing beyond and behind what we say about the companies in general. But you can see from the origination, that's loan originations, and this is on Slide number 6, since it's up and to the right. And CreditAss should, on an annual basis, comfortably grow more than 100% of the originations year on year, and that's the trend we're seeing year to date In Q1, and obviously, there'll be a base effect from the low levels in Q2 and Q3 of 2020 as CreditAss grows into Q2 and Q3 of this year. And that obviously feeds through to the revenues, north of BRL 120,000,000 of Q1 top line revenues. And you analyze that and we're looking at about $100,000,000 run rate revenue, and that's for Q1. Obviously, the trends are, as I say, up and to the right here. So we'd like to see that continue as we go through the year. Just touching on this would have been a slide from our last presentation, but it's just worth having there again that this is a story that has We have invested in back in Series C. We took part in Series D and then also did our rights in Series E. So it's been a very And there's been a gradual uplift in valuation mark to model and mark to investment rounds. So it's been something that's had been core to our value creation and kind of classic playbook. You would have seen the same with EZCO in the past and where we've always been behind the curve of where the company has gone in terms of fundraising, raising more money and eventually exiting sort of the conservative nature to what we do while an upward trajectory to it, not those important. And on Confio, What I'd just say about comp here this quarter is that it held the big driver of our NAV quarter on quarter. And it drove And I think about 70%, 75% of the NAV uplift, albeit with some moving parts below it in the portfolio. And a lot of that is just a recovery from last year from what was a very subdued year in Mexico in unsecured lending for the small business. And we have got back to a more Strong confident footing in terms of forecasting and belief in the numbers. So we should see approximately 3x growth in the originations from Compu this year. It could be north therein, That's feeding through to the income statement. And also just from the broader ecosystem build outs, they're doing exceptionally well, acquired a company in the ER space your Peace Face in Q4 last year, moving aggressively into payments. And I just feel the better mix for the overall business away from credit into other aspects of financial services guess in the broader diversified financial services ecosystem that they always wanted for small businesses in Mexico. I'll say a word or 2 on our new holdings. We put $7,000,000 into rupeeq in India. It's our 2nd Indian investment. Actually, from a standing start in India, we were back and forth in India for maybe 5 years before we made our first investment in Justpay 12 months ago. We've got 2 real quality assets in that market over the last 12 months, and we've really put our benchmark down there. We're well integrated, And we're seeing some very interesting pipeline. So Rupee is it reminds us very much of Creditas in Brazil and hence with a big driver of the investments. They are asset backed lenders. Their focus today is gold. And gold is just the biggest store of value in India. And it's a space that had been massively under penetrated or where it is penetrated, it's in the gray market and not in the formal market. It's the most obvious way to leverage untapped wealth and to allow Indians to borrow at a more sustainable realistic rate at better durations and the unsecured space. So the risk reward for both the lender, for the borrower, for everybody involved and then the scale and potential of that market around this asset class It's just obvious. It was obvious to us. And we just really like the team, the backers of the team and got very comfortable in that space and with that story. We're very happy to get a piece of their last investment round and wrote them a $7,000,000 check, and we hope that's a start of a lot more to come. And then In the other asset that we did, sorry, in year to date was Minu in Mexico, a much smaller check, dollars 500,000,000 So it's kind of like, I guess a taster check, it's a story and a team that we know very well in the space earned salary advance that we know exceptionally well having invested in Brazil, Looking at it in India and Pakistan and other markets. So we know the space, we know a lot of players in that space. We can see how it's a phenomenal product in terms fit for the employee or the employee and then you did some governance and regulation and ethics. And it's also a great customer acquisition product and you get paid as you go in terms of scaling. So we like this a lot. We wrote a small check to be part of their round to get on the inside at this early stage of their journey. And I would have view that we will write them more as they grow and they deliver. So we're kind of it's a different strategy than what we're used to, but it was a very comfortable check for us to write in this window. Couple more slides before I open up for Q and A. I guess on the pipeline front, it's always good to talk about it is heating up. It's heating up in terms of quantum. It's just everybody seems to want to raise right now, whether it's in our portfolio, outside our portfolio, times are good. There is liquidity and capital out there in a very low rate environment and the space is very much in focus. So I can understand the desires and needs of companies out there raising. For us, we haven't really changed our approach other than the extent of the quantum coming out of country by country approach for searching. We're very deep in Brazil, India and Mexico, as I said, at our primary markets. And then Pakistan and Egypt are getting a lot of attention, even though we've started to DipperCo into Indonesia and Nigeria is obviously there on the outskirts. So they're all scale emerging in frontier markets. I would expect us to do one more deal in Q2 within new companies, small deal. And then obviously, the pipeline in the portfolio continues These are companies that we know best, so we can see a lot of conversion potentially happening this year within the portfolio, so a mix. But we keep on looking, we keep on working our way through the leads. The numbers I give At the bottom of the slide here, give you a feel for how busy year to date is for us in our markets versus the whole of last year. So it's really, really picked up. But we're in a very comfortable position where we're long a portfolio of quality assets. We don't have to go out and invest in anything. It really has to tick all our investment boxes to get into our portfolio because we've got such high benchmarks with names like Creditas, Compio, JustPay, really setting the bar for anything new that comes into our portfolio. On the share price, obviously, it's something that we look at, we track, So we're really focused around the discount to NAV. So it's really we drive our NAV per share and then we're looking at keeping that discount as low or As we increasingly grow our performance and our track record of value creation for our share price to be trading at or above and our NAV, and that's our kind of desired goal and what we're trying to reward our shareholders with continued strong performance, growth, delivery, and that gets rewarded through the share price and premium to NAV as people look through to what's happening next in our portfolio. Also our size and shape, this is at the end of Q1, but we're about $400,000,000 of market cap now. It just makes us a much more investable asset and liquidity wide size and shape for investors than we were even 3 or 4 years ago. So this is a process, it's a long term process And that's the way we're building the business and every part of it. On the sustainability and ESG front, as I said last quarter, I would have talked a lot about FinTech for Financial Inclusion and a lot of this kind of feeds around the ideology of not at least The ethical to be scalable, I know scalable is a good investment and our company is still proud on that front. I think this quarter, we always say we're building the business for the long term. And part of that, obviously, the GE of ESG and governance, and we're very comfortable and proud of the governance at best. But there's obviously a journey in that and the journey on our holdco and our screw structure around the Bermuda HoldCo had been had its time. It was time to move to a more sustainable playbook and that obviously has brought us to After a lot of work and a lot of interactions to a Swedish, a read investigation process, and we think that's going to be very important for us as a company for our capital providers for the future of where we go on the G front of ESG. And finally, just a few points to round off. And this is almost repeating what I said at the start of the presentation, but NAV NAV per share gets a lot of our focus. Last year was very strong and we're very encouraged with We've always seen year to date in our portfolio companies, which obviously feeds through to everything that we have from an NAV point of view. Their performance is compounding nicely. And within that, we do have 14 assets in there, but the most transparent and the biggest one today is Creditas and it is compounding for us from a stronger base. That Q4 raise was a good indication of value at Creditas. It's growing from there, and it has a lot of interest from other investors on its way to IPO. So Long may that continue. What to watch below Creditas? I would say, on one hand, it's Compuio. We talk about it a lot on its journey towards the SME Financial Services winner within Mexico, but also India. Irrespective of the horrific headlines we have From a COVID health life point of view in that country, we have 2 exceptional holdings in the fintech space, which Justpay has not really been impacted so far by everything that's going on in India. We peak we'd expect it somewhat, but it's secured lending. So the growth will be there to the detriment of unsecured lenders in that market. So very comfortable with our assets in that space and they're ones that we would look at our superstars in the making behind Creditas and Compio. ESG is always at the 4. It should be for us as it is for everybody else. I think the move to Sweden makes a lot of sense on that front. And the FinTech theme, it's something that we were live with and pushing 5, 6 years ago. It's very much front and center, and we're benefiting from that while not getting carried away with some of the euphoria out there. Operator, I will stop there and I'm very happy to open up to Q and A at this point. Call. We have a question from Hermann Waldorf from Barclays. Please go ahead. Your line is open. Hi, good afternoon, David. A couple of questions from my end here. So you spoke about Credit Suisse and the growth rate and that you Expect the company to basically double this year. I was just wondering if you could go into a little bit more about the key parameters here. I mean, About it's about the margin, the ticket size of the individual loans, so just increasing origination just overall. What kind of key parameters are you looking at for this growth to happen? Yes. Herman, thanks. Look, with CreditAss, it comes back at one level that is paying into such a scale opportunity space, and it's such a small entity within that. We are talking about an unsecured lending book in Brazil of approximately $500,000,000,000 and that's the space that's playing into by offering a much better product, loan product to individuals at a much better price point. So when I look at the credit task originations in Q1 of this year, dollars 420,000,000 Raees. That's less than $100,000,000 of origination in that quarter. And the 2x growth this year, It's still what am I saying? It's dropping the ocean stuff in terms of the addressable space they're playing into. And it's not so much they're playing into An underpenetrated market of which there is a case for that in Brazil, but it's just a substitution effect of a not fit for purpose loan book in the system to a more fit for purpose as loans are securitized, collateralized and worked around either your payroll, your auto and or your home, which obviously Creditas focuses on. And it's harder to do that because of the underwriting process and the collateral process, and that builds the moat with our business. So I think when I think about Creditas, 1st and foremost, it's driving that customer acquisition and that top line in terms of loan book, which feeds through obviously to top line revenues. Below that, not that I'm not concerned, I'm just less concerned about how that drops down to contribution margin and then bottom line. Obviously, there's moving parts in the cost of funds and asset quality. And then, obviously, they're building a business for the longer term. So there's a lot of investments going in So 3 ecosystems and an expansion into Mexico. But at the same time, there is a discipline in all this because we are looking at IPO in the not too distant future, at least Pat to IPO. So that brings a disciplined nature to growth while also trying to make sure the rest of the metrics work into contribution margin And then bottom line, positive in time for a key event like that. Yes, fair enough. And just a follow-up on that. Have you seen any changes now with the recent increase in COVID rates infection rates again in Brazil? Have you seen any impact on the growth on the loan losses for Credit Suisse? No. I think What's happened is we've had the 1st dry run. And this is obviously this is all totally aside from anything the human suffering that goes on with COVID in these countries that we're invested in. But from a business point of view, we've had a dry run-in Q2 of last year when we entered COVID Part 1. And we would have been we talked about the term and we'd have been very concerned about our portfolio going into that because we didn't know what we didn't know. And it did the credit test, They just totally stopped growing in Q2 of last year and actually went cash flow positive for the month of April, which is good to see, but just wanted to be in control of its own fate. You fast forward to today and Brazil is coming off the boil in terms of its peak numbers, which is obviously good to see. There is some control over where the trends are going, unlike India, which is still obviously rising. We talked to all our companies on a micro level, and they're not seeing Anything like what they saw last year, obviously, we're working in the digital space, the online space. And a lot of the learnings from last year is that the funding market didn't close-up for people like CreditAss, or not now. And asset quality at the back end of this was a lot better than people had feared. So anybody in the digital financial services space is in Brazil is going at this window in a much more controlled comfortable manner. And the numbers that we're seeing coming out of credit in April are as good as, if not better than March. Yes. All right. Fair enough. Then my second question here is about the exit environment. I think you spoke quite at length here about the building pipeline for you guys. But I was also wondering if you could talk a little bit about the just the general exit environment. I think you have been saying before that you have been approached for 4 out of your companies. I was just wondering if you could speak a little bit about what kind of considerations would go into Making an exit and maybe if you could give a hint towards which of your portfolio companies have been you have been approached for. No, that's fair. Look, we love exits. So entering is great and building positions in great companies, but the disciplined nature Exits is important. And this is a good window for exits. So one should always be looking at that. And we've got a discipline in our companies where they're always looking at the exit. It may not be today, it might be another 5 years, 10 years, but our founders are constantly talking to the right players who could buy them and are looking at IPOs or talking to bankers or advisors. In the current environment, I don't know if it's 4 or 5 of our portfolio names that are in conversations. And that can be anything from a first conversation to somebody just showing interest in something more detailed. So it's and this happens all the time and we welcome it. We've got quite used to it. And we saw with EZCO in the past where that kind of approach just leads to a moment whereby the right partner at the right approach and valuation comes in And everybody agrees, let's do the exit. So that's kind of what's going on. I don't want to give an inkling of what names, because it's a real mix from some of the bigger names to some of the smaller names, but what I would say, I think I said this when we raised money in Q4 last year, is that I'd be disappointed if we didn't have an exit this year, and I can and over that statement. Now I might be disappointment because there's a lot of moving parts, but I would like to think that we would have an exit of some sort this year. All right, perfect. I think that's it for me. Thanks a lot. Super. Thanks, Herman. Our next question comes from the line of Joakim Ghanol from DNB Markets. Please go ahead. Your line is open. Thank you for that operator. So I think Herman actually asked most of the most relevant question perhaps. But coming back to where we ended, I mean, it would be interesting to hear how you reason with regards to your return requirements. I mean, your previous I mean, they have been stellar, the returns there. But would you be willing to make an exit of an holding at, call it, below your return requirement because I mean, because Yes. Would you be comfortable with doing an IRR of, call it below 30% when exiting and holding. Look, simple answer. Yes. Every situation is unique. Not all of our portfolio assets will do what Tinkoff and EasyCo did, albeit I wish they would. It would make life a hell of a lot easier. We have stories obviously that have phenomenally delivered and then ones that have delivered below expectations. And our marks suggest that and we're quite realistic with our marks and they go up and they go down depending on the business. And So I guess, yes is the answer. I think the clearest case in point is one where Cable also where we put $30,000,000 in, and we have a currently marked up $5,000,000 So that's an aggressive markdown in valuation over time. And to be trying to look for a 30% IRR on our initial investment would be something special from this point. We have our benchmarks, but we take each situation as it is. And sometimes it's good to just take money off the table at either a decent return or versus your current valuation mark and then put that money to work better elsewhere. That's clear, Dave. And perhaps you can comment a bit more about I mean, with special regards to Creditas, how you And balanced ambitions here. If the road map has perhaps been even further accelerated than, Call it a couple of quarters ago with regards to the IPO readiness. And I mean, would it make sense to try to capitalize on The current existing IPO window or is this perhaps something that's in the plans for 2022, 2023? Yes. Look, It's an open debate at board level and I don't want to speak for the founder. He's on the record about getting IPO ready into next year, 2022. And that's obviously, we repeat what he says. And I think the path towards getting IPO ready is As important as the IPO itself, it's almost like joining the EU, you just get your shop in order, whether it's legally, accounting wise, reporting, Not that they ever went, but you just get to that point where you're ready to go. So that's a good thing overall for the governance and structure of the company. And that brings a bit of discipline as well. But we also debate it internally, you lose some of the freedoms that you benefit as a private company by going public, the ability to move quick, to grow quick, to pivot, to move into a new space, and you need to be ready to take that on board. I think if you ask me, I would be more on the stay private for longer, especially given the path that they're on at the moment and all the moving parts. And I can see a super bright future in which we'd love to compound our value in it for longer. That said, you have the markets as they are today. So There's a good strain there and a good debate at board level, but I still think talking about IPO ready for 2022 is probably the best way to think about it. Very clear, Dave. And just looking at Slide 36 and your pack here from today, It seems that you are right now committing some $20,000,000 into Yes, both new well, follow on investments and new, I assume. So can you perhaps just comment a bit on I mean, It seems that's okay, should Confio do a recap where you want to take your pro rata? Would that be included in that number? Or any thoughts on that? Yes, what I'd do is that's an ever evolving number Joakim as you could say. But that $20,000,000 I would say is us looking at current portfolio needs for the year. That would be the likes of Confio, Justpay could raise and then a couple of smaller names. And I think $20,000,000 maybe a bit more could cover that in terms of us taking our pro rata. Many situations we pass on or situations we look to do super proactive, so that may change. But I think $20,000,000 is a comfortable ish number for internal. It doesn't really take into account pipeline and that's where the numbers start to change. So if we converted pipeline, whether one big name or a couple of And names of reasonable size, we could be short on capital. At the same time, we've been talking about M and A and money coming in. So just some moving parts there. Yes, sure. No, that makes sense. And perhaps lastly, just from a more semantic point of view. So Can you just talk a bit about, okay, should we see more of a reopening economies and The vaccination trend really picked up during the latter part of this year. Can you just comment a bit on, I mean, What holdings do you believe are the relative winners in such a scenario? Because obviously, the payments holding were the relative winners on the when COVID hit, but in a more normalized scenario perhaps. Yes. And look, I actually I think generally speaking, okay, I look forward to investing in these companies for a 12 to 18 month period of normal. I don't think we've had normal in our markets since we started and that's a function of whether it was politics, macro COVID, coups, Different situation because we're in emerging markets, it's always funky and interesting. So and to see our companies deliver what they've delivered through all of this volatility and headwinds is phenomenal and something we've always believed in. I think it would be actually be super interesting to have a stable state of affairs and 12, 18 months runway with nothing in their face to see what they can actually do if they were let loose. But on a relative basis, I'd say I think it's something like Nivo In the accounting SaaS space in Brazil, small businesses obviously can be hurt by a lot of these headwinds. So COVID out of the way and that could open up for them for sure. I think CreditAss is doing well in COVID times, but I think Super well in normal times. I think in small business, again, it'd be Confio in Mexico. So probably the most the highest beta ones in a post COVID world could be Nevo and Confio. Thank you. I think that's all. Super. Thanks, Jochen. Our next question comes from the line of Yigal Veen from CHRX. Please go ahead. Your line is open. Hi, David. Thank you very much again on the very consistent hard work of you and your team. And you're delivering very, very strong results. Appreciate it. There's a lot. Now I joined this call a little bit late. So can you please For my benefit, what are the major contributors to the NAV growth in this quarter? This is number 1, Just the few biggest. And in terms of the creditors, for Many questions asked. But this disruption in end of Q1 and then Q2 of last here vis a vis the model growth of the portfolio. And what kind of portfolio growth do you see in next 12 months or 24 months, what would be desirable number for you as a Board member? Yes. That's it. Okay, Cool. Thanks, Igor. I appreciate it. Let's do the second one first. I think on CreditAss, I think a lot of lessons were learned in last year's COVID Q2 and Almost the key takeaway was that we should have drove harder through it because we were well placed and that's what's happening this year. So we have the funding and the market there on the demand side. And we're seeing the numbers in April come through like they were in February March. So I haven't got the COVID concerns for Brazil and for credit tasks that I would have had this time last year where there was a lot of question marks. And how that feeds through to, I guess, forecast and growth from here. We are looking at just north of 2x growth in the loan book year on year for 2021 versus 2020. And that's It could be north of it. And then Credit has its own internal models. They like to drive for harder, so they're more into 2.5x to 3x. We based our investment in the last round on 2x. And given the delivery in Q1, they're very well set to do that. So I think Creditas, the core business, the collateralized lending And the space that they're in, 2x a year this year into next year is something comfortable, I think, to forecast. And It becomes a forecastable entity versus a lot of our entities where it's still early stage and unharder to forecast. Then on to the NAV part of your year, the first question you put, Igor. We increased our NAV quarter on quarter about $15,000,000 from 388 $1,000,000 to $403,000,000 And I was still in the face of some currency headwinds in Brazil. We had a 10% currency headwind versus the dollar and then some multiple headwinds because Q1 markets are a little bit anti tech and pro other segments. So But the key driver was Confio. I think $12,000,000 of that $15,000,000 uplift came from Confio. I know some moving parts beyond that. But And with Compia, we've just got a lot more confident in that model. We always liked the model, but obviously, you had some headwinds last year in Mexico. With COVID, unsecured lending, they wound down the origination and asset quality NPL spiked. But that's really come back together in the second half of last year. And they've really put the foot down in growth in a much better environment in Mexico this year at a time when nobody else is lending. The Mexican banks still all sitting on their hands. And also their core their non core businesses of ERP and payments are coming through quite nicely. So it's a company where effectively it's Part recovery and part growth and parts growing confidence from our side, which is feeding through to our valuation on it. And it's probably the name that's most likely to raise more money next within our portfolio given the various conversations and and indications that we see. So we look forward to that and it's a company that we will definitely back further. Chris, all clear answers, Dave, as always. Thank you so much. Super. Thanks Igor. Take care. Our next question comes from the line of Kevin Martelli from Martech Partners. Please go ahead. Your line is open. Hi, Dave. First of all, great quarter, so congratulations. I had A simple question regarding the relative valuations of assets in Brazil visavis India. I mean, I just had a brief look. I was looking at the devaluation of your recent acquisition in India, rupee, which is, as you said, kind of comparable to CreditUs in a way. And as I was looking also at the size of loan disbursement In one case visavis the other, I was just trying to reconcile the valuations and it seems to be that India is way cheaper than Brazil. Consider also the I read in the press that rupee could be Was aiming to become breakeven in 2021. I don't know if that's the case. But I was trying to get An understanding of the relative valuations of these 2 assets. Okay. So Super, Kevin, thank you. So the relative valuations of rupee versus Creditas, yes? Yes. Okay, interesting. Let me just let me talk a little bit general and a little bit specific, and I'll come back to you if I'm not answering the question properly. But I think generally speaking, what we have is Indian assets and Fintech assets in the economy have generally been High valuation versus a lot of other peer countries. And that's why we've been struggling to make an investment there over many years. A lot of capital looks at India domestic, international and likes to play India for what is the obvious scale game of the 1,500,000,000 people and businesses therein. So with China being a very difficult market to penetrate for global investors, India has been the next port of scale call. And we've seen that from all the tech companies going in there and everybody else. So what we found is In general, people tend to pay for the size and scale and the long term potential of that market above and beyond the near term delivery of that market. So on average, we've got a lot more, at least near term value in other markets, namely Brazil, where if you're looking at near term multiples, Something in Brazil that trades at 10x revenues, for example, like for like would trade at 20x in India. So I'm thinking I'm being very generic here, but It's and it obviously feeds through to the public markets as well where public market banks and listed entities generally trade through the cycle of higher multiples with its price to book PE versus their Brazilian counterparts, even though they've got much lower returns through the cycle than their Brazilian counterparts, but everybody pays for that growth aspect. You take that down to a micro level and a credit asset versus a rupee. And I would say, I'm Talking I need to look at this again, Kevin, and come back to you. But I would say Rupik is higher value, not lower value on our metrics than Creditas. Rupee is on an earlier stage, but growing faster from a lower base. And hence, the multiple on that, at least the short term multiple, a 12 month, It's probably much it's probably higher than that of Creditas, but then if you extrapolate out 2 or 3 years, it's more like for like as you pay for that faster growth coming through. But If you don't mind, I'll talk to Alexis, who does rupee, who have you credit us, and we'll come back to you a bit more specific after this call, if that's okay. Yes, sure. I think probably an explanation is that Rupik as a business model, does it act like As an intermediary between the retail customers and the Indian banks, whereas creditors actually lends its own money, could that be Actually, business model type of difference? It's a bit it's almost a perceived business model difference because credit cards It is asset light at the end of the day, albeit it is underwriting risk and it shifts all the loans off balance sheet into funding products in the Brazilian market, albeit it takes a little bit of risk upfront when it holds the loan. As you mentioned, rupeeq is very much similar in the rupeeq is Underwriting the individual, scoring the collateral, taking the collateral, acquiring the customer and then lending off the back of MBFCs and Banks balance sheet. So it's a bit more direct in the case of rupeeq. It's more secondary in the case of Creditas. So rupee very much is a market place and customer acquisition and scoring machine and asset light. Creditas is too, but on first iteration, a lot of people see Creditas not as even though it is. Got it. Thank you so much. Super. Thanks, Kevin. Thank you. And there are no further questions at this time. I will now hand back to the speaker. Super. Thanks, Harish. Look, thank you everybody for your interest in our story and your participation today, especially an active Q and A session, probably one of the most active ones we've had so far. So that was great and very much welcome for the future. Any questions you have on Oslo and our story, feel free to contact me directly or Henrik Stenlund in our Stockholm office. But in the meantime, take care, and we'll see you next time.