Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the conference call on the acquisition of Firestone Building Products. I am Ellis, the Chorus Call operator. The conference must now be recorded for publication or broadcast. At this time, it's my pleasure to hand over to Mr. Jan Jenisch, CEO.
Please go ahead, sir.
Yes. Good morning, everyone, and a very warm welcome to this maybe rather early and rather Expected first call we are having this year. I'm very much excited to start off the year like this with such a Transformational acquisition and very happy that you are all able to join this morning. First of all, I wish you all A very successful and rewarding 2021. And my big wish is that we will Soon meet each other again in person, which is something I think we all missed very much in the past year, and I hope we can achieve that Maybe after the next couple of months.
All right. For now, let's talk about the acquisition of Firestone Building Products. That's a real milestone for us in transforming La Farge Holcim into a company with The most innovative and most sustainable building materials products for the future. I think I'm starting off today by Let me tell you a little bit about Firestone Building Products and why flat roofing systems are so exciting. I think you all received our presentation already and I'd like to start a bit.
So we are I feel very fortunate to Have the opportunity to partner with such an iconic company like Firestone Building Products. They are a leader in the U. S. Market. They are the leader in the most attractive flat roofing systems, and They are the leader in systems selling, selling all those insulated roofs, solar roofs, cool roofs, green roofs.
So they are really building the roofs for our future. The company size is significant. The sales of $1,800,000,000 almost 90% in the U. S, which I think is great and leader in roofing systems In the number one building materials market of the world, which is the USA. A healthy company, you will see the margins, Especially the EBIT margins already at 12% to 13%, most certainly a lot of potential to further increase, but We are buying a very solid business here for future growth and future margins.
So So again, very, very happy to do that. If you look then a little bit more in the details, they are the leader in system selling. This is something which just developed, I would say, over the course of the past 10 years, where the customer is demanding Not only a waterproofing membrane or waterproofing system, but they want to have the whole buildup of the roof from 1 company. So that means you start with the waterproofing membrane, but then you also specify the whole insulation system And the whole buildup of the roof out of one hand. Here Firestone is the leader.
And you also see from the manufacturing footprint That we are also producing all these key components here for those roofing systems. So very exciting footprint. We have 15 state of the art manufacturing facilities. What's a personal highlight for me? Looking at the plants, they are state of the art, I mean, company run by Bridgestone.
There are no shortcuts. They have the highest standard in manufacturing, in health and safety and all the technology. So this was A very good finding we had from looking closer at the business during the last couple of weeks. If you look at the trends in roofing or what innovation is ahead of us, Firestone is here leading the field. You have one exciting slide in your presentation.
It's Slide 11, Where you see how Firestone is making urban areas and make our cities more sustainable. They are really at the forefront of sustainability. So you see here from the green roofs, which are really making big progress basically in all the cities of the world, People want not to have boring roofs. They want to have green roofs. And we continue we have cooler roofs We are the roof can reflect the sun to keep the influence of the sun away from inside temperature And the Energy Control, the same for solar roofs, which in some cities is already becoming A requirement for new roofs to have solar energy production on top.
And then one of the biggest topic I think driving also the success of Firestone is the whole energy efficient roofing, Especially with these integrated insulation systems, which is a requirement by law in most of the markets already, And this will be a huge driver also going forward. Then building roofs is, of course, a process which can be Improved further. Here Firestone is the leader in self adhered systems, where you don't even have to Put any mechanical fastening anymore or any liquid applied adhesives, but the roof comes already or the membrane Comes ready to be installed. So very exciting. And maybe the last trend I want to mention It's all these changing weather conditions, which we experience in the U.
S. Very much with all these Hurricane and storm seasons, which obviously get more and more intense, but also in Europe, we feel it with this changing Weather patterns, which basically need also better roofs going forward. With all this, please Keep in mind that the roofing is the area of the house or of the building where you lose up to 60% of the energy. And this is a key area to be taken care of going into the future. And here, very proud To have Firestone already on top of all those trends.
So I think in summary, again, I feel very fortunate to have the opportunity to have Such an iconic company joining us. This is something normally not for sale and we are very lucky here You have the opportunity here to welcome Firestone Building Products in our group. I've talked about we have a company has leading innovation. We have 3 technology centers. We have the most patents in the industry.
And all this you can expect to continue here or to accelerate with full speed. Very good to see that they already have 60% of their sales in repair and refurbishment, a market very resilient, and We see it during all those crisis that this is a very stable market, so we're very happy here To come up with a more exciting profile also for us here to focus more on repair And refurbishment, the last thing maybe to say about Firestone, they are a technology leader, which is acknowledged by the customers. So you see in the presentation a few pictures from Apple to Nike, and we are The most preferred brand by all those big companies who are like to roof their retail outlets All the warehouses, all these booming data centers or booming logistics centers of Amazon and the likes, They want to be roofed by the best roofing system supplier Firestone. So very exciting. And you have seen that the flat roofing market will grow above market, because basically the urbanization It's built with flat roofs.
And then on top of that, the technology of choice are those single ply materials, Especially the EPDM membrane and the TPO membrane of Firestone, so we have an above market growth here organically. This is then also the way we go forward. We will, I think, Now do everything to support the management team of Firestone with our own footprint now to accelerate The growth story, we have still a lot to do in the U. S. Market.
We are far away From having the right size, you saw the total flat roofing market is $50,000,000,000 globally And has much more significant potential also in the U. S. So very excited here To continue to grow in the U. S, then of course, we have a great opportunity here To accelerate the expansion in Europe, with the LafargeHolciered footprint in all the key markets, I think we can support here A lot of smart organic investments, but also some bolt on acquisitions here To multiply our sales and our market position in Europe. I think the same we will do in Latin America, where we Our future opportunities, we have 2,300 Descenza retail stores with More than 3,000 SKUs already.
This is the stores, the preferred stores for smaller house builders and crafts And this is, by the way, growing very much. We are opening a new Descensus store about every second day of the year. So this is a very dynamic growth story. And here, we are very happy now to introduce Firestone products. Here, especially the liquid applied membranes will be a hot seller for the Latin American market.
So the acquisition is really is a growth story. Also in the U. S, you imagine We are now suddenly having a $6,000,000,000 business in the most attractive U. S. Market and you see the profile, What a fantastic move we make now towards solutions and products closer to the customer As now, this business segment will account already for more than 1 third of our sales in the U.
S. Market, and this is really Very exciting for us here going forward. We have a lot of complementary Opportunities in the distribution channels, as you know, we are the market leader in cement and Strong in concrete in the U. S. And now we are meeting the number one player in the roofing systems.
So Very attractive and we have quite some synergies here in sharing our distribution channels Going forward here, we have more opportunities for specification selling. Firestone, of course, is Historically stronger than us in specifying big infrastructure projects, bigger buildings, But we are also catching up. And I think together, we will have quite an exciting future here to talk to owners, Talk to architects, talk to civil engineers and main contractors and make sure the building is Perfectly specified from concrete up to the roof. We have so you can see I'm very excited about The growth synergies we are having and this new growth platform of roofing systems. And it also goes well, I think on the footprint side, so we have quite significant cost synergies with this.
Also Firestone is a very As a big footprint, many locations, a lot of distribution, logistics. And here, we will also have quite some good synergies Joining forces from the back office to optimization of logistics and procurement, which looks Very, very exciting to me. I think before all of this, again, it's Fantastic to start the New Year like this. We have a milestone in the transformation of LafargeHolcim On our way to be the global leader in innovative and sustainable building materials and solutions. Very we have this new growth innovation platform.
We want to become the global leader in flat roofing systems, Which I think is very realistic. You will see in the near future very smart organic investments we want to Put into the business and there is obviously it's a fragmented market segment still. So we will have opportunities here For further consolidation, and we are ready to do that. On the environmental and It's very exciting to see, while Firestone is at the forefront of sustainability, La Farge Holzom is also at the forefront of sustainability with our commitment to net zero. And I think together, this is really a perfect fit.
And I'm very excited here with the new colleagues to start also innovating the next Building materials for the future here to become here even stronger and define Our leadership. I think with this, I really wanted to start to give you a little bit more details here On Firestone and how exciting and attractive the business is. And I think you have probably plenty of Questions and comments. So I'm very happy now to start the Q and A session. And we have enough time, friends.
So we have enough time to talk today, but I appreciate if you maybe limit to Two questions at a time and you can always come back. And also, of course, Investor Relations team, myself, the CFO, we are Fully available for you also in later today and in the days to come because I think we need to talk about this and explain it And discuss whatever comment or question you have. So let's start Q and A. Happy to have your questions.
The first question comes from the line of Paul Roger with Exane. Please go ahead, sir.
Hi, good morning Jan, Geraldine and team. Happy New Year. Exciting start to 2021. Yes, okay. So just two questions then.
I think the first one, Looking at Firestone's profitability, the €270,000,000 figure, I mean, you obviously mentioned that's a 12% to 13% EBIT margin. And I'm just trying to understand really how depressed or not that is. And in particular, whether it benefited from any cost tailwinds last year or maybe even some costs that were allocated to the Bridgestone Group. So any commentary on the sustainability of that EBIT margin pre synergies would be helpful. And I think the second one would be on return on capital.
If I'm doing the maths correctly, I think this implies a 7% return Including synergies, do you agree with that calculation? And how much further do you think you can get that up, Paul? Is this really a growth rather than return
All right. Hey, Paul, thank you. Good to have you also happy New Year to you. Yes. To your questions, I think, first of all, I'm very happy to find this business in such a solid condition, right?
So You're saying we have EUR 270,000,000 EBITDA, which is maybe not fully exciting at this point. On the other hand, we have a very strong EBIT as this business is not very capital intense, right? So we rather look at the EBIT, which is already at €230,000,000 Now going forward, we can add €110,000,000 of synergies to that and This is going to happen within the next 2 years already. So you are right, we are seeing quite some potential To increase the margins here, while of course the focus is also to grow the business to be market leader In this Flat Roofing segment, which is quite a step to do, we are while we are in the U. S, The leader, we are globally number 4.
So we have quite some tasks to do here to Multiply the business to be the true leader globally. So that's from the I think synergy margin side, You can imagine we are quite optimistic that we can achieve the next level. I think, Geraldine, you want to take the question on the return on capital?
Yes. I think, Paul, you need to add a bit of synergies on the tax as well. You can imagine we have Structure the acquisition in such a way that we can benefit from full deduction of the financial interest and also of the goodwill in the U. S, Which will be amortized for tax purposes. So all in all, we are having all the math for you to prove that we are Going to be above 8%.
Okay. That's great. So I've got lots of other questions, but I'm sure other people have. So I'll come back on a bit later Thank you. Super.
Thank you, Paul.
The next question comes from the line of Elodie Rall with JPMorgan. Please go ahead.
Hi, good morning, Jan and Geraldine, and happy New Year, first of all, and congrats on the transaction. So my two questions will be, therefore, first of all, could you give us a little bit of background On your involvement in the transaction, the backdrop the background given that we are aware the transaction was Previously expected to close earlier, and you didn't seem to be on the 1st round in the transaction. So Could you explain to us a little bit how you got involved in Firestone? And my second question would be on Slide 21 on the I mean, you gave a lot of reasons there on revenues and costs and The synergies you're targeting are quite material given the EBITDA of Firestone. If you were to Give us like the main two sources of synergies, like which one would there be?
Like it would be helpful to understand a little bit the breakdown Between all the synergies listed here and revenues and costs, to have a better understanding, because at first sight, roofing and cement, I didn't think there was a lot of synergies, to be honest. That would be helpful. And within that question, do we expect restructuring costs for 2021? Many
thanks. Cool. Hey, Elodie, great to hear you so early in the year and also happy New Year to you. On the process a bit this involvement, yes, that was quite an intense process. I actually didn't think We can sign so soon considering the COVID-nineteen situation and all that, but it went very smooth.
Also to say Bridgestone has done a fantastic job to work together with us. So we didn't expect it to close so fast. We were Then basically talking with them on a daily basis over Christmas and New Year, which It's not ideal, but maybe in the COVID-nineteen year, it gives you a bit of excitement and a bit of Other things to do as we are more or less we're all sitting at home, but was a very intense process, very properly Due diligence from us, we have you have to imagine we were visiting all the sites, which was Challenging, we were fortunate here. We have a strong U. S.
Team, so we could rely on them also To make sure we can make this in these challenging times, so this all went very well. And I have to say also in very good Cooperation with Bridgestone, you can see a bit here The background also with the joint media release we did that this is really a very good handover, which is Plan to take to happen here. On the synergy side, I think I'm more excited about so when you look at the Chart 21 you mentioned, we have revenue and cost synergies. I'm more and they are about fifty-fifty at this point. I think I'm much more excited about the growth opportunities.
This I think the cost side will come very automatically here on the synergy side. Maybe also worth to mention that The business is while it is a standalone, there's certain carve out for back office functions. And here we will get rather very lean resources. So we actually we have no plans to restructure or no need. There will be no layoffs.
We will fully take over The Firestone employees and we get a very lean backbone. So we actually have to most likely use some of the Lafarge holds in existing resources To run the business, which is a great position to start. So to answer your question, the cost will come very naturally. Also Here we have also fortunate that the Firestone management team will fully stay on board and they are Also excited about the opportunity. You can read the leader of the business, Taylor is also being quoted in the press release, and we are working now hand in hand to set up the business for the future.
No restructuring. We will stay in Nashville for the headquarter. And again, it's a lean carve out, so very good starting point.
Sounds great. Thanks.
The next question comes from the line of Lars Kjellberg with Credit Suisse. Please go ahead.
Thank you and good morning and happy New Year to all of you. So two questions. Jan, you just called out the excitement comes really on the growth prospects. And you seem to have identified multiple opportunities there, both in Europe and in LatAm. Can you help us understand what sort of revenue And also how much money you need to spend to get there?
And the other question, Rene, is about the market outlook itself. Appreciating 60% of this business is refurbishment and Etcetera, but 40% is new build and the outlook for commercial roofing or commercial construction generally seems to be somewhat subdued. So how should we put that into context of the near to medium term growth opportunity for this business?
Super. Hey, Lars, good morning and also Happy New Year. Great to have you with us this morning. So your first question on the revenue opportunities, Well, as I mentioned, very exciting. We will we have an existing network in Latin America, which we will now smartly feed with Firestone Products, of course, there's certain cost involved to make the right marketing and the right selection of products and all of this.
But I think this is a normal cost of doing business that looks very no big investments needed for Latin America. Europe might be a bit different. We have here big opportunities. Firestone has already established business, I think $120,000,000 $130,000,000 of sales, also with quite some iconic buildings. Here we have Also the advantage that we are the preferred supplier for certain key owners and they take us global with their business.
Very good starting point. What you can expect in Europe from us, we will have some smart Organic investments and then We will have some smart bolt on acquisitions and to say the least, the bolt on acquisitions will have different And multiples for the acquisition price, right? We paid, I think, a fair price for Firestone Building Products, but the bolt ons will be on a different level. So for Europe, you have to consider some CapEx and you have to consider some money for volumes. But Obviously, we believe that has a very fast and very, very, very good payback terms.
Market outlook, that's a very good question. We have good order books here. I mean, we generally see the U. S. Market is in a great condition, right?
And Going forward now also with the new stimuli decision, which has just taken place earlier this week, I'm quite I'm very bullish on the U. S. Market. I think there'll be great projects coming for infrastructure, but also for All these cities who need so much work, who need so much better living conditions and all these Green solutions we are offering. So we see a very good project flow for Firestone in the U.
S. And Very excited to go through. We gave a small hint in the presentation. I think it's somewhere on the last page or something Where we talked about the like next year outlook that we expect actually A mid single digit organic growth for Firestone globally. Just to give Some, I think, comfort that the business is running well.
Thank you very much and good luck.
The next question comes from the line of Martin Hisler with ZKB. Please go ahead.
Yes. Good morning, everyone, and a good noise to all of you. My two questions. First of all, I see it's only building roofing membranes. I was just wondering whether there might be in the future For the applications such as, for example, for tunneling or if this is something completely different?
And the second question is rather accounting one. Have you already identified how much goodwill You will have through these acquisitions and what intangibles you need to amortize in the future.
Good. Hey, Martin. Good morning. And good morning, yes. So first of all, we are excited That we have this leading technologies for the flat roofing systems.
And so I think we have to focus on that Application because it's a $50,000,000,000 market globally. So you're right, we can expand in other fields. But This market is significant size. So our number one priority is now to become the leader for flat roofing systems globally. And that's a big task for us to do.
And new ideas beyond, of course, we could go tunneling. Of course, we could have the insulation and the waterproofing also for facades, for the building envelopes. So that are Very attractive opportunities. But I think for this year and next year, we will focus on Roofing Systems because it's such a significant Potential we have. On the goodwill, I think it all looks good, but maybe Geraldine will give us some more background.
Sure. But then we will do the valuation exercise post closing, so we have some time To do that, I think for the purpose of the computation, if this is what you need, you can take an average An approximate 3% on the revenues to identify the purchase price allocation.
Okay. Just to understand this well, so 3% is Amortizable substance or yearly.
Yes, exactly. Again, the exercise will be done in due course during 2021. If it's just for the purpose of doing estimates, I would recommend you take 3% on the revenue As an estimate.
Okay. Well understood. Thank you.
You're welcome.
The next question comes from the line of Glynis Johnson with Jefferies. Please go ahead.
Good morning, everybody. Happy New York and you too. My two questions really just trying to explore the business that you've bought just gives us a little bit more background. I wonder if you can help us out with the 1 to 3 in the sort of 5 to 6 in the industry, just who are the competitors in there? And then just give us a little bit more about the breakdown of the business.
How much is actually flat moving systems and how much is just the membrane? I guess I'm trying to get to some sort of idea as well about how much of your business is currently used by the smaller contractors And therefore, it's easy to expand into Latin America and how much is sort of the double stratification, the much larger contractors And therefore, involves a slightly different way of trying to enter the market.
Yes. Good morning. Thank you for the question. I had a bit of hard time to I fully understand. I start with the last part of your question, because I could hear that well and then maybe someone can help me out with the first part.
So you're asking about the route to market. So how the business are sold, that's a great question. And it's really a very dense network they are having. They are having, of course, direct sales. And then they have a significant part Of the business is distribution sales to service all the smaller contractors.
It's a very nice push and pull situation. As I mentioned before, we are very happy to have all these approvals from the large owners. And you see in the presentation all these fantastic buildings, which are roofed and protected by Firestone Products. But at the same time, not to underestimate, there's a very dense network of smaller contractors, which appreciate Maybe even more that they can have the tool system from Firestone, so not only the membrane, but also the installation And the whole installation systematic. So this is really good.
So we have a very, I would say, sound A route to market here for this business. Can someone help me with the first part of the question that was Competitors. Yes, competitors, you have one slide, which we shared with you on the competition where we showed The market size and we are focusing on the flat roofing market with $50,000,000,000 of sales already. Also important to know, we expect 4% to 5% of growth for our line of business, which brings us already the next 5, 6 years to $65,000,000,000 market. So it's a good market to be in.
On the competitor side, you'll see on Slide 16, Market is still fragmented. Even you have big opportunities to set the same technology standards, Products and Systems globally, it's a fragmented market. We are currently number 4 position with only 4% market share and you see 3 companies globally ahead of us. I will not I can in a one to one, we can talk about names, but I don't like to talk about competition by name. So but it's a good situation and we are trying now to move up Yes, step by step over the next few years.
Did that answer your questions?
I'll follow-up online and try and push a little bit harder in terms of getting those names. Thank you.
Thank you.
The next question comes from the line of Arnaud Lehmann with Bank of America. Please go ahead.
Thank you very much. Happy New Year, Jan, Geraldine and the team. My first question is just really stepping back And try to understand why you want to become the world leader in flat roofs.
Is it a
question of opportunities because this business became available and you believe you can make something out of it? I guess my question is also around initially it felt like Construction Chemicals was possibly a more natural fit Well, as far as you'll see, because there would have been more kind of product synergies. So I guess, what's flat roof part of your Potential product diversification plans or is it an opportunistic move because this large business became available? That's my first question. And my second question that maybe I just split into 2 very briefly.
Could you give us a split for Firestone between new residential and renovation? And also what are the key raw materials? Thank you.
Yes. Hey, good morning. Happy New Year and thanks for the question. We had of course when we came out with the strategy 2022 about almost 3 years ago, we had the 4th segment officially started solutions and products If the clear target to be closer to the customer, have products more specified with more innovation And that was always our target. And roofing was part of it.
So we have our strategy paper has a couple of application fields, Which fit our business well and Ruping was among them. And then of course you need the right opportunity and You have to stick to your principles. So you are mentioning last year, we were in the process for a different business, And which also in the BASF business also had waterproofing as one key technology and application field. So but again, we couldn't come to a conclusion back then because we didn't see our financial dimensions Being achieved. So now we are very excited to have this opportunity.
Again, it's an iconic company. It's on the I think on the wish list for many of us and that's great to do. You see from the fit side, you really when you go into the specification of Future infrastructure and buildings. You see how well concrete will go with Roofing Solutions. On the sustainability side, both companies are At the forefront and we will combine that to be stronger together.
And the last comment I think is here that The attractivity of this flat roofing business is really tremendous from the market growth, but also from The technologies Firestone has to offer the full system with state of the art membranes down to the full Fixation and insulation of the roof. So we are very, very excited here on that part.
The next question comes from the line of Ahmed Nabil.
Sorry, Sorry, we have it was a question on residential or on refurbishment?
That's just a split between new res And renovation for Firestone and the key raw materials of the business, please?
Yes. Thank you. So the key raw materials first, maybe we are using polymers from the chemical industry. We have The TPO, which is basically an advanced reinforced plastic material, which is one of the longest lasting roofing materials. And then we have the EPDM, where Firestone is a traditional innovator and leader in the field, which is a rubber based technology.
So we are having, I would say the 2 leading roofing materials because they are the best for UV resistance, For long lasting and gives you the most opportunities for the future of roofs compared to other roofing materials, which I don't want to name now by technology, but which are having less potential for the future. So very excited for this one. On your question, repair and refurbishment, already 60% of Firestone sales are from reroofing. And this is something which will just grow because basically every roof needs to be reroofed at some point. And now all the reroofing Will be done usually at higher specifications, because traditionally the roof is not insulated, the roof is not having a solar roof, It's not a cool roof.
So usually re roofing offers you a lot of upselling opportunities. Also here a lot of regulations will require insulation or even some cities have started to require green roofs or solar roofs. So very, very exciting and this will grow. You can imagine if you have a Firestone roof, the likelihood that you will re roof with Firestone, I think is 70% to 80%. So we have very strong brand loyalty in that segment and very exciting here To continue to grow this business.
Thank you very much.
The next question comes from the line of Ahmed Davil with Barclays. Please go ahead.
Yes, good morning and happy New Year. Thanks for taking my question. Actually, the first one He's actually following up on what Arnaud started to discuss. I mean, it looks like a rather fragmented industry, which is, of course, Exciting in terms of consolidation potential, but could you please talk a little bit about how disciplined this industry has been Historically, pricing wise, I'm trying to get a sense, given the lost share Of Materials and Raw Materials, with some volatility presumably on pricing, on weather, You've seen severe ups and downs margin wise over the past few years or if the industry has a tendency to pass on Cost deflation, inflation to customers in a relatively disciplined manner. So that would be my first question.
The second one would be probably looking a little bit ahead and at the future. Should we assume that This is a large 1st large acquisition to digest and therefore we could see a pause in terms of M and A, Time for you to digest that acquisition, generate the synergies? Or could we see LaFourge or the team doing another Mid size or large size acquisition in the field? And if that's the case, how much you think You got in terms of financial firepower left post this year. Thank you.
Super, yes. Good morning to you and thank you for the questions. When you look at pricing power, that's a very exciting business. I think, first of all, It has a very solid volume demand even in maybe more difficult times due to the large part being Repair and refurbishment and then maybe more important, it is big on system selling and on innovation and on branding. So you have a very solid set of differentiators in the business.
And I think this has just started. I think the importance of the roof has just started to kick in the last 10 years with all these new requirements on saving energy, On having better buildings and to stop having 60% of the energy leaving the building through the roof. So this has just started. So I think going forward, we will see very strong margins from the business. When you look at the P and L, the EBIT is strong.
It's very small capital intense. So You can expect very strong returns. You think we gave some indication on the cash conversion, which was at 66% For the last reporting, but we expect this to continue above 50% on the cash conversion side. So we have a very strong return. And you can imagine, whatever happens on the cost side, we will have a very good pricing going forward.
Then I think on the M and A side, I'm very happy we can do the deal now And keeping our newly achieved financial performance, right? So we've already confirmed now that our Net debt ratio will stay below 2 times, yes. And we can confirm this already. And that's important to us. You will not see from us any deals in the future basically violating our Financial discipline, so we will keep below 2 times.
I'm very optimistic on the cash flow For 2020, which we already also guided, and I think we're going to have a great 2021 on the cash flow side. So I think we will get Quite some headroom to maneuver here on the M and A side. But I think as you mentioned, this one now It's our proper attention and we have a lot of jobs to do organically, but also for bolt on acquisitions. So This is what we focus on now for this year, next year. And we will keep but most important message, We will keep our financial discipline.
So we will not go above 2 times of net debt or we will not go into a situation where we Don't achieve our cash conversion above 40%. So this you can always expect from us.
Thank you, Ian. On the first question, sorry, did I understand it well that actually you were implying that there's been some margin volatility historically, but do you expect that to change given the The importance of roofing and all the factors you mentioned that are structural drivers for the business. Is that a fair Understanding of what you said?
I think it's fair when you see also the new products being launched, the self adhered roofs, Firestone also just launched a new high fire resistant insulation board materials. So we have really plenty in the pipeline To make us the choice of the owner, the choice of architects, civil engineers and the choice of the contractor. This is a business You want to be their preferred supplier, and I think Firestone has a strong history. And With the megatrends for the flat roofing market, I think this will be even stronger going forward.
Fair enough. Thank
you. The next question comes from the line of Angelica Gruber with Tamedia. Please go ahead.
Yes, good morning and happy New Year for me as well. I would have two questions. The first one would be on the M and A process. Could you do a Proper due diligence with travel restrictions around because it was a company from Europe buying a business in the U. S.
From a seller From Japan. So how much of an issue was COVID at all? And the second one is a pretty basic one. And why is Lafarge Holzheim as a cement company buying a buildings material company? Because roofing systems seems more the core business of your former employer So I'm wondering whether you want to transform Lafarge Holzium a little bit into a second?
Thanks very much.
Yes. Thank you. Good morning. Good morning. Yes.
Well, the M and A process was that was a challenge, because When we started the process maybe 3, 4 months ago, there was an ambitious timeline. And I didn't think it will happen so soon, but again, both sides did a very good job. We had Bridgestone was Super coordinating with us and you could feel they were interested to find the right future and owner For the employees and the customers, they are not a business like maximizing something in the short term. So that was, I think, one important criteria. And then we were planning for all scenarios.
So first of all, we have already a $4,500,000,000 business in the U. S. So you can imagine we have it's actually our biggest single market at LafargeHolcim. So we had a full team from the U. S.
Working here on the due diligence, I thought the site visits might be the biggest challenge for us. But honestly, we visited all the sites that went very well. To be honest with you, maybe it would be more difficult now. So I think we just did it in the right window. Basically, it happened in late November, early December, and we were lucky that was A window where we have free travel was possible and we did all that because you cannot afford a shortcut in the due diligence.
So we saw All the plants, we met all the people, the management team of Firestone is amazing. They were with us The whole time. So we had a very good due diligence. And I think I mentioned before, we had a very intense Christmas and New Year time where The team basically was talking to each other on a daily basis, which I personally found exciting because sitting at home In COVID-nineteen times, at least I had a video conference to look forward to once a day. So maybe that It was not so bad.
I don't know about the other team members, if they felt the same. But we did this in a very positive and good manner. And again, we made a very thorough check and that was all I think all well done. I think on your second question, we are not trying to become a second Sika. That's not the goal of the company.
We are The leading building materials company in the world. We said in our strategy that we want to go closer to the customer. So we want to have applications, products and systems, which go closer to the customer and then roofing systems One of them. So we are very excited here to start this new global platform for us. When you look at our synergy slides, I think we have a lot of synergies together.
We will specify future infrastructure, Future buildings together from concrete to the roofing systems to, I would say, most important areas for any building. So we have very positive synergies and very excited to execute here together with the new team members.
Thank you very much.
The next question comes from the line of Leonhard Kansherper with Bloomberg. Please go ahead. Mr. Ken Sherpa, your line is You may ask your question.
Hi there. Can you hear me?
We hear you well. Yes, please.
Great. So I apologize if you've already answered this question earlier. It's about the debt financing plans. And did you already say when you might offer the bonds and if it's going to be might sell the bonds and if it's going to be in dollars or euros?
Very good question. So first of all, I'm as you said before, very happy to be now in such a Solid situation. We're going to have a super cash flow in 2020. And of course, we have a very smart CFO, who has Already financed the deal in a very smart way. I don't know how much she wants to talk about it, but I'm happy if you give some details How well you can finance it out of cash and a little bit financing activity, Geraldine?
Sure. So it's a Traditional way, we have cash and dollars available to finance the deal. And you're right, We will probably issue bonds and whether it's euro we swap in dollars or directly dollars, we'll decide in due course.
Thank you. That's good to know.
Sure. But to be to say, I mean, we don't need to finance The full consideration of EUR 3,400,000,000 maybe we're going to have a financing of half of it and half way of it Comes from cash, which already is available in U. S. Dollar, thanks to our very nice cash generation business in the U. S.
So from the finance side, very solid. And of course, you can imagine with also our solid credit rating, the financing is On very competitive rates. So very happy to be in this situation.
What's the cash part again? How big is it?
I would say we can say fifty-fifty. We will probably pay about half on cash and half will be financed.
Thank you. Thank you.
Your next question comes from the line of Jon Ravall with Thomson Reuters. Please go ahead.
Yes, good morning. Thank you for taking my question. It's just a follow-up On the Sika question, I was wondering, was this an area of the business that you're particularly interested in because of your experience at Sika, Jan. And how much of a competitor do you think Sika will be in the future for you guys? Will you be bigger than them With this acquisition in roofing or smaller?
And how do you see the future going on this front?
Well, again, the target is not here to copy or make another Sika. These are 2 different companies. I think we are very happy to enter the roofing systems market. And to be fair, we are maybe competing a bit with Sika in that field that's clear. We are number 4 in the world in Roofing Systems.
I think Sika is not there. So we have some competition, but Firestone is Obviously, it's, I think, a bigger player in this roofing segment.
So it's not actually an attack on CECO or anything like that, you'd say?
John, say again, sorry.
It's not like because your experience with Seeka that In this Building Chemicals business, so was that did that kind of help did that give you some kind of background interest or information about this market that kind of helped you Make this kind of seem attractive to you, would you say?
Well, John, I hope I help the company. Whatever I do, I hope I can add to the company. However, I mean, you have to be ensured we have very strong teams at LafargeHolcim in the U. S. For this specific team also here in Switzerland.
So this is not about myself. This is about
No, thanks.
La Parcels, making the right step, and we have very competent people. But I like your question that also I can add something sometimes. Thank you.
The next
One housekeeping question. Are there any contingencies on the deal completing? There's nothing I've seen mentioned in the release on that. And then secondly, I'm really interested on the cross selling opportunity. Firstly, as it relates to the regional opportunity and then as it relates To your concrete business, so on the regional opportunity, you talk about Europe and LatAm being areas for growth and obviously this business Underrepresented in that market, how easy would it be to sell these products through your existing distribution network?
Do you have the right technical people involved, the right access to customers to actually seemingly bolt in the Firestone offering to your cement and aggregates Business or do you really need to build out a separate sales channel in Europe and in LatAm? And then secondly, on the cross selling opportunity, What percentage of your Concrete and Cement business today is actually going to roofing applications? How well represented are you in Firestone's market? And how easy is it to sell the system solution to a customer where you would bolt in the concrete product as well as obviously the roofing membrane, etcetera. Basically want to unpack the growth upside from this acquisition, if any.
Yes. Hey, good morning and thank you for the I think, again, I'm very excited about the growth opportunities here for the business. Different things, maybe the most easy to understand is Latin America. We have 2,300 retail outlets, they are called Dicensa, Very strong in the markets in Latin America. We have already 3,000 SKUs.
We are selling already Firestone type of products In those outlets, so I think this will be a very exciting exercise here now to I put together the right Firestone package for those 2,300 outlets, which By the way, he is a key growth driver for our very successful Latin American business. So we are I think at the moment, we have a rate of opening a new store every second day of the year. So we have huge plans to further expand. And in that store, we are selling cement and we are selling waterproofing, liquid applied membranes and other products. So This is I think the I would say the most straightforward sales synergy we have, so very, very exciting.
When you go to the U. S. Market, here, 2 market leaders are joining, right? We are the number 1 in cement. They are the number 1 in flat roofing systems.
So this is very exciting now to see joining us. We have a lot in common For starting with sustainability, we are in the U. S. The LEED certification is very important for new buildings, Right. And we will together and we are already together.
We are leaders for ourselves, but now we can put together a much Stronger leads package going forward to be again the selected supplier from concrete to roofing. I think the people who are interested in this, which are the owners of the building and then the creator with architects, civil engineers And the main contractors, they will be very excited here to talk to us here to have full system solutions. So Quite a lot, I think, will go on in the U. S. With these 2 number one positions joining.
In Europe, it's very exciting. We will not now train our sales force to become roofing sales force Here, but here we have a good start. We have Firestone already has 2 manufacturing facilities in Europe. They have a training center, an R and D center and they have 4 sales offices. So it's a footprint which is, of course, not sufficient to be the leader, But it's a great starting point and great people we have there.
And now we're going to build that up. And here it helps, of course, with Our footprint in Europe, we are a leading building material company with close to EUR 8,000,000,000 In sales and 21,000 employees in all our footprint with offices, so it will be much easier now to have an expansion plan For Firestone Products going forward. So very exciting and then plus, of course, the bolt ons. So I think on the synergy side, I'm very confident about the opportunities. For me, the trick will be to stay focused, right, not to go for Too many ideas.
We heard a question regarding if we go now into connected areas from tunneling or facade or something. We have to be very careful and now really roll out this fantastic Firestone system within the Lafarge Wholesome World. Did I answer your question?
You did. I think it makes sense from a regional perspective. I'm just wondering how easy it is to bolt in your cement and concrete business into the roofing offering. But I suppose And then the other question was just on contingencies of the deal. Any competition issues or anything that we should be aware of for the deal to complete.
I think this is the beauty of the deal that, Of course, I think there were many companies interested in Firestone and also many competitors interested. And then It would end up into a longer regulatory process and we don't expect that. We are guiding now that we expect the closing already in the Q2 of the year. I expected rather at the beginning of the quarter than at the end.
Can you give us a number just on the cross selling thing? Can you give us a number on how much of your cement or concrete actually goes to I don't know if that's a figure you could share.
What's your recent exposure? I don't have a Precise number for you right now. The trick will be here about the specification. So for us, the volume is one aspect, but I want to be the specifier of the most sustainable buildings and infrastructure projects in the future, having the highest lead score That's our target and to combine all that. I don't have the number.
We give us a bit of time maybe to give you a bit more granular view on this one, So you feel comfortable, but for now it's a very exciting opportunity and that's what we try to achieve.
Great. Thank you very much.
The next question comes from the line of Manu Reng with Swiss Radio SRS. Please go ahead.
Yes, hello. Good morning. I have a question concerning Who started the negotiations? Was it your initiative? Or was it Bridgestone that Came to you and how long were the negotiations going?
Second question is concerning Zika. Could you Consider a merger with Sitka or buying their flat roof business because it's obvious they are doing exactly the same in flat roof Systems. So there might be a cooperation in the European market. And my third question is about the synergies. You're saying you're going Closer to the customers, isn't it something completely different selling cement and building roofs?
I have seen in other companies, they also wanted to go closer to the customers and they failed In this point, did you really think well about this point?
Okay. Yes. Hi, thank you. Good morning and thank you for the questions. I think on the negotiation side, I commented already a little bit.
We were it was an intense process the last 3 to 4 months. Bridgestone obviously has started the process because they have also big plans for their tire and mobility business. So They I think they were not happy about it, but they see the need to let go their building Products business as it was a standalone business within their tire and mobility service business. So they started and then But again, we had a very positive interaction with Bridgestone and with the Firestone team. This was very positive and Not always the normal case in such a process.
So we that's why we also came to a very Firm conclusion so early in the year, which is also a bit unusual to finish such a deal over Christmas and New Year. Actually, I have I cannot recall in my career that I ever did any deal mid between mid December and mid January, but that was It's a positive sign and you can see it from the press release that we have the right level of harmony and trust and that both parties are interested Your Zika question, well, again, it's 2 separate companies and We are not trying to be the next Sika or something. We're just now developing our business as we define in our strategy to get closer To the customer and this is something we have already started doing. When you look at our products last 12 months with the launch of EcoPact, the most sustainable concrete product, that's something now which We are selling basically to the house owner. We are selling to the architect.
We are selling to the cities who are the Have the biggest interest to build greener, to build more sustainable. So we have already a big shift in our traditional business That we're not just supplying to a craftsman or building contractor, but our building our materials, They're becoming greener every day, and this is something which needs to be closer put at the heart of the customer because they are the ones Who want to have more sustainable and more greener buildings. So when you look at EcoPack, when you look at our latest cement, SUSTENO already having 20% recycling material inside cement. These are all products you can see we move to the customer and that's Going to be our future. And here, again, the roofing system perfectly fits.
When you look at sustainability, we are both companies at the forefront To make from concrete to roofing, to make a greener future for all of us. So Very excited to do that and that's going to be great. And as you mentioned, the proof is in the doing. So we have we are not celebrating At the moment, we are sitting together and having our execution plans and then we go to work. Can you are we still on?
Are you is that answering your question?
My question was answered. Thank you very much.
Thank you.
The next question comes from the line of Yuri Serov with Redburn. Please go ahead.
Yes, good morning. I would like to probe you a bit more on your synergy promises or estimates rather. So you're saying that you have $110,000,000 of synergies split about fifty-fifty to revenue and cost. The question was asked already, but I just want to understand it better. So on the cost side, When somebody asks you the question how you're going to achieve the synergies, you started saying that you will get a very lean organization from the seller And your own people will start having to do some work and some back office processes.
Does that mean that they are actually transferring less cost So you then what they're using now and you will automatically get a higher EBITDA straight away or do you need to do anything there? I Your chart talks about procurement, global sourcing, infrastructure and things like that as well. So how much of that is coming in? And so what are the main drivers of the cost synergies? And on the revenue side, You were just talking about expanding the business in Latin America and Europe and in the U.
S. As well. When I look at the numbers, They suggest to me that to achieve your revenue synergy, you need to increase the sales of this business by 20% over the next 2 years. How realistic does that sound to you? Thank you.
Yes. Hey, thank you and good morning. The second part, I have to increase 20% what number?
Well, if you achieve EUR 110,000,000 in cost synergies, 50% of that is revenue. So you get 50% benefit In your cost through increasing the revenue, at 15% margin that you have, that means that your revenue needs to go up by about $360,000,000 which is about 20% of today's sales over the period of 2 years. That's the mathematics that I get from
All right. I start with that question. That's actually not a bad math you're doing, and brings me to the point that We see some rather faster sales synergies, which as we said in Latin America, I think also in the U. S, we have some complementary opportunities in distribution channels. And then also in Europe, I think we're going to have some Exciting, rather fast synergies.
So I think on the growth side, we are a bit conservative. So we put a very doable Fast synergies in the plan. The real story to become the global leader of Flat Roofing Systems He's not in the €110,000,000 synergies. That's on top of that. So to let's say to double the business or Whatever exact number we probably going to talk to you about later this year, this is not here calculated.
So I think your math is about correct for the synergies we're going to have in the next 2 years in sales. And Yes, that is on the sales side. I think on the cost side, you are also, I think, Expecting here the right thing. So we see that the carve out is lean, which well, normally is not the case. So I think it's a bit fortunate for us that we get a maybe say a lean headcount from the Bridgestone side, Which gives us the opportunity for some shared services or shared FTE.
We are not planning here To have any extra cost, but to have less cost. In addition to this, Again, we are 2 market leaders in the U. S. In building materials, so quite extensive footprint. So you can imagine on the logistics side, for example, I think Firestone can benefit a lot from Lafarge Holcim As we're having much more logistic volumes and probably much better rates, so Here we have also an immediate cost synergy, but also in the procurement side, as mentioned, we think the teams will meet and we're going to have Some good opportunities here.
So overall, I expect here to have rather fast synergies on the cost side and And not based on restructuring, but just based on sharing resources and sharing the knowledge.
And I'm sorry, can I actually just test you on this procurement question? The products that this business buys, the materials Seem very different from what you buy for your traditional heavyside businesses. I mean, obviously, there are some subsidiary Purchases that happen, is that going to be the source of the synergies here?
Yes. Well, if you look at the procurement side, you could Argue now that maybe 50% is not directly related, but that means that 50% is related, starting from logistic To location management, starting to all the channel costs and as we are both in building materials, we're talking about the same distribution channels. So we have a lot of synergies. And even on the pure raw material side, you will be surprised that we have certain minerals or other products, Which we both buy. So again, I don't want to make a too rosy story, but we have a quite a Strong procurement overlap, where we can have quite some impact.
Okay. Thank you.
The next question comes from the line of Tobias Berner with Stifel Europe. Please go ahead.
Yes, good morning. Can you hear me?
Yes, we hear you well.
Yes, okay. Happy New Year to you and thanks for taking the questions. Two questions, if I may. Number 1, obviously, this is biased towards The U. S.
And you want to expand over time internationally or globally and make this a leader, which is commendable. But at the same time, we're entering a weaker dollar period. Dollar periods can last anywhere from 6 to 7 years, whether that's strength or weakness. And weakness tends to Favor emerging markets, commodities, etcetera. So my first question is, are you still intent on reducing your emerging market exposure now through such a deal and what your long term perspective of that is in context of that situation?
And the second question is probably more for Geraldine, if I may, and it's around financials. You kindly show The breakdown of the various products globally. In the presentation, I'd like to understand what it is within the business as well according to these lines roughly. And secondly, as a financial sub question, is the operating margin historically? What is the trough and what is the peak we've seen?
How cyclical is it? Thank you very much.
So first of all, I think it's exciting to make this
Excuse me, Jan, we can hardly hear you.
Sorry, sorry. I was on mute. Can you it's better now?
Yes, much better. Thank you.
Okay. Yes, Tobias. So first of all, I think it's very fortunate that we have this platform coming from the U. S, because simply The U. S.
Market has been the best market for building materials in the past and will be the best market for building materials When it comes to growth, innovation, but also when it comes to margins. So this is very, I think, fortunate And very excited also in these times where I think the U. S. Has just Launched the new stimulus program earlier this week. So we have a great timing now basically to add another 30% To our U.
S. Business. So really excited, I think, and you can see it from the new growth profile we have now in the U. S, How this is transforming our company. Regarding emerging markets, you can see we made some steps, right?
We Divested in Southeast Asia, which is emerging market. And I don't want to make a big Outlook or target here, we look at the portfolio actively. You can expect to be doing 1, 2 More changes maybe, but I'm very happy that we are in a situation now where our financial position I think is so sound And we'll stay sound that we don't need to make any urgent divestments or Any drastic actions. So this is, I think on that front. I hand over to Geraldine in one second.
Just On the margin side, you see this business properly run has very solid recurring margins Due to the stable volumes and especially due to the very stable resilient 60% of repair and refurbishment business, so you have very ongoing strong margins and good pricing power. Geraldine, you want to take over from here?
Yes. Sure, Tobias. Good morning. I think your question is a bit more how we were going Position this acquisition in our presentation and that's fully part of the Solutions and Products segment as Jan mentioned.
No, no, no. The question was in the presentation on Slide AF 15, you give the global Market breakdown and there is by the various sub products. But for us to better understand what sub products you actually Having your in the new portfolio as a percentage, it would be good to get a sense there from you, I. E. How much Are there various components of the systems within the €1,800,000,000 of revenues?
Okay. I see. Yes, we'll provide that later.
Thank you.
The next question comes from the line of Jean Christophe Lefebvre Mulague with CIC Market Solutions. Please go ahead.
Yes. Good morning. Good morning, good morning. I have two questions, if you allow me. First, moving again to Slides 1516, Could we have maybe a breakdown between the 2 main business channels?
First, the contracting And secondly, the distribution to Kraftwain and distribution in both in Europe and in the U. S. Is the key? And how are your relationship with American distributors, Mainly in terms of bargaining power. In U.
S, I think the distribution is specialized by brand. The second issue, could we have maybe for Geraldine, an order of magnitude of the yearly investment or yearly CapEx So in this new acquisition, Meditank's fill and bank.
Yes. Good morning And greetings to you. So on the route to market, we have a very balanced model here Out of push and pull, so I would say the fare mix is maybe fifty-fifty, 50% direct sales, 50% distribution Sales, but not to forget that even the distribution sales is usually or half of them It's triggered by pool, so by specifications. So we specify the building, the roof and then The smaller craftsman maybe has to order the product via the distributor. So this is a very strong push and pull.
And I think when I look a little bit about the roofing universe in the U. S, we have maybe a very strong position with the distributors, Which is a good platform here to move ahead. But it's a very exciting push and pull. And I think Firestone did a great job with certifying the contractors, leading the market with innovation And of course, bringing all the innovations from system selling to self adhered membranes to really Be the selected brand, no matter if it's ordered directly or if it's ordered through distributor. But for now, I think the fair assumption is something like fifty-fifty, but it's a bit more granular behind that.
Okay. And for the CapEx, please?
And on the CapEx, Jean Christophe, It's a low capital intensive business, so we estimate between EUR 40,000,000 to EUR 60,000,000 a year.
Your next question comes from the line of Remo Roseno with Hubertischa Bank. Please go ahead.
Yes. Hi, Geraldine. Hi, Jan. Within the due diligence The acquisition you most certainly determined the organic growth CAGR of Firestone over the in the past. Could you share this number with us, I.
E. What kind of average organic growth Firestone achieved, let's say, over the last 10 years or so.
All right. I think it's such a business. Hi, Ken. It's a positive growth, of course. We have a structural growth in the segment.
We had a good growth If the system is selling in Firestone, but we don't want to share the due diligence finding. It's not the public information. We don't want to also here violate our relationship with Bridgestone where we signed the confidentiality to Not open up numbers, which are not in the public domain. So it was a positive situation. As you can see from the slide, it's It has been a growing market for the last 10 years, will be a growing market for the last 10 years and Firestone He's very actively participating in that.
And sorry, I cannot give you your exact request, but we have to respect a bit The confidentiality we have to sign for the due diligence.
But you could at least Confirm that the growth from I mean, the company was only founded in 1980 and now has €1,800,000,000 sales that most of the growth is achieved or a Significant part of it was not only achieved by acquisitions, but by organic growth. Can you confirm that?
Of course. Firestone Company has the tradition of organic growth. I think it's also true for the mother company of Bridgestone always Committed to R and D, innovation, product, solutions and not to M and A. We had however, we had a beautiful Position at Firestone about 3 years ago, they bought the Gecko business, which is liquid applied membranes. That's maybe the Single most growing technology in this market and they bought one of the leaders in the U.
S. Market in 2017, so that was one of the also the technology driven acquisitions, which I'm very happy they did. So you You're right. This is mostly organic growth. And I think besides GECO, there were 1, 2 other smaller acquisitions happening in the past 30 years or so.
Great. My second question, I think a bit earlier you mentioned to expect 4% to 5% growth for Firestone going Forward. Just to be clear, did this refer to organic growth only? Or did this number already include bolt on acquisitions?
Yes. We wanted to give some comfort. So this is just the organic growth what we see on the current Project pipeline of Firestone, we believe it's solid to assume that Firestone organically will grow maybe mid single digit, but this is without bolt ons and this is without the sales synergies, Which we laid out.
Okay, great. That's very clear. And well, also Happy New Year from my side, and thank you. Bye bye.
The next question comes from the line of Yassine Tuari with On Field Investment Research. Please go ahead.
Yes. Good morning. So two questions on mine side. Could you give us a split of Non residential and residential construction for the business. And how confident are you in your outlook For organic revenue growth, given the latest leading indicator on the U.
S. Non residential construction, I think the ABI was at 46%, which suggests that there might be a drop in nonresidential activity In the second part of 2021 or maybe in 2022? And the second question is, Given your experience at Sika on waterproofing, what kind of return did you experience On organic CapEx and bolt on acquisitions?
Yes. Hey, great. That's a great question on the Residential versus non residential, I think for this business, we like to look at it a bit differently Because this business is about urban areas and cities. So when you look at flat roof systems, They are used in the cities, where basically everyone is everything is flat roof to make the most efficient use of the space, While on the countryside, you still have a lot of pitched roofs, right? So we don't select the residential build rate.
That doesn't mean much for us for this business. We have to look at the development of the urban centers. And here, while We have super trends. I mean, the global whole population growth is happening in the cities. So this whole urbanization trend, that's driving our business.
We have then all the new legislation regulations for Greener roofs, greener buildings, more thermal insulation, all this is the megatrends which is driving this business. So looking at the core market for us, the U. S, we are very confident because we focus on the big cities. So the residential build rate doesn't mean much for us in this business. We are interested to help to develop the cities.
And you cannot give us
a broad split between nonresidential and residential? Or is
Honestly, I don't have that split for you today. And again, it doesn't mean much for us because Even residential in city is usually nowadays flat roof. So we are excited about residential in cities. Outside of cities is not really our market. So that's what the focus is on.
So we can get you the split, but Doesn't mean much. We are in the business of developing cities, and that's our key focus. Your second question on waterproofing. You can see I'm very excited about Waterproofing, roofing systems from the margins, from the growth perspective, so from the sustainability. So I think we are hitting all the right buttons here.
That's all good. The margins are good. And Your question was, I think, a little bit geared towards capital intensity, which obviously is in the right area. I think we provided the numbers for EBITDA and EBIT for the running year, which are very close together. So you can see that the depreciation level of Firestone at the moment is even below 2% of sales.
I think this is a bit on the low side. And so we are very excited here to Maybe go to 3% and make sure we make the right investments, not only in bolt ons, but I can also imagine we're going to build 1 new Manufacturing facility every year now to make sure we feed the market demand for the business and still Stay within a 3% depreciation threshold. So very exciting, I think, going forward, And that's what we will do.
I think the question was more on the return on capital employed, on the new CapEx And on the bolt on acquisition, which will be higher than the when you did some acquisitions when you build the new facilities for our water booking or when you met the production acquisition, what kind of return of capital employed did you get in the past and what do you expect in the
This is of course, this is on a very high level. This is always has to be double digit. I mentioned earlier, even bolt ons, they will usually trade for lower multiples, so that you already start With return on capital employed, which is in line with the group and then plus synergies, you will be double digit And organic investments usually are or have to be clearly double digit and that's how we will execute.
Thank you very much.
The next question comes from the line of Gregor Kuglitsch with UBS. Please go ahead.
Hi, good morning. I hope I'm kind of towards the end for Happy New Year. I've got two questions. The first one is just
to explore the Synergy side
and the calculation a little bit more, maybe just a question for Geraldine. I think if you just simply multiply 3,400,000,000 times 8 Ascent, which I think is what you're talking about, but correct me if I'm wrong, over 8, I guess. You're talking 2.70 of So post tax, no pads or whatever. Can you just walk us through how you grow set up? Is it what you're assuming in terms of I think you mentioned something around Tax reduction on goodwill and stuff like that.
So if you could just maybe give us some granularity on the math there. Secondly, on the margin, and it's maybe a bit related. I think there's only one competitor of yours that's listed, which is Carlyle, and I think they Make a margin, EBITDA margin that's a little bit over 20%. So I guess my question is why do you think Why is Firestone lower than that? I mean, I understand there was some management turnover and Some operational issues in the past few years, I believe, at Firestone.
So if you could just maybe walk us through what kind of is the bridge Between that best in class margin and what Firestone produces, where do you think you can also get there?
Thank you. Gregor, good morning. And let me just before Geraldine steps in, that's an interesting benchmark you're giving us For the U. S, and this is exactly what we are discussing, there is no structural reason and for sure no Technology reason why we should not have the highest margin in the industry. Let me just say that and this is something We work on now, and I think we will see here margin improvements going forward.
Nevertheless, I mentioned before, this is a very solid, Very sound business. We are the preferred roofing supplier for all key owners. So this is a rock solid, very well run business On the products, on the systems, on the quality and that's key for me. And then how we improve the margin now from X to Y, We have plans for that, but important is the starting point is rock solid.
Yes. So Gregor, if you do the well, first, you have to do the computation in 2023 and take some growth element into the profit that, of course, Is then accretive to ROICA target of 8%. The tax Benefits effectively have to be also factored in. Actually, if you do the computation already for 2021 And we have the uncertainty on the purchase price allocation. So if you take a EUR 50,000,000, for instance, and You had the tax benefits.
You're arriving to a notepad at €270,000,000 a little bit more. So you have the 8%.
So to be clear, your notepad is after the PPA, so after the €50,000,000 which is essentially also what the tax break is, yes? Is that probably the right way to think about it?
It is little bit lower than €50,000,000 The tax benefit is lower than €50,000,000 But that's where you get but you have to add it, yes.
Okay. Okay. All right. Okay. Maybe I'll follow-up, but that's helpful.
Thank you.
Sure.
The next question comes from the line of Arnaud Pinatele with On Field Investment Research. Please go ahead.
Yes, good morning and thank you for taking my question. I will have just one. In 1997, Lafarge And part of the failure of this acquisition was the fact that concrete products concrete types were Commoditized. When we had the remarks last, I think it was Tuesday, About Lafargeourcing potentially acquiring Firestone, we had several pushback from clients telling us that A lot of this business is commoditized based on what the Japanese analysts were mentioning. I'm not very familiar with Firestone.
So I would like you to, if you can, explain to us what Percentage of the sales of Firestone could be considered as commodity products and what is What I will call value added systems and the ones that can make this acquisition a success? Thank you very much.
Yes, yes. Thank you. You are correct. I think Lafarge was operating a business in roofing, Which is completely different from this business. This was a business based on shingle and tiles, mainly for pitched roofs.
So We are talking about commodity technology back then and that's even more commodity nowadays. That's why I think it's so important To realize here the future of roofing systems with flat roofs and with all this state of the art and new innovations. And Let's say this, I think that Firestone has no commodities. They have specified systems and you can see throughout the presentations From their systems, if it's for solar roofs, for insulated roofs and the whole system selling approaches, That's a totally different area than this old business you were referring to. So there's no overlap to that.
And then The future is flat, the future is green and the future is insulated. This is what we do now with the Firestone Flat Roof Systems?
Let me ask you differently. When I look at Slide 15, When I look at the global market for flat roofing systems that you are providing by technology, would you consider that Firestone As more or less the same breakdown as the one of the global market?
Yes, that's a great question. That's a great question. So basically, we are not we have one manufacturing facility for bituminous membranes only. That's not really our core product. And if you look at the innovation or the movement in the industry, you will see they go from bituminous or asphalt Choose single ply technologies, so to the EPDM and TPO.
So we have it in the range, but this is a small part of our sales. And we are focusing on liquid applied membranes and the single apply membranes and the insulation and then the smart assembly components. So that's so we are yes.
Sorry, sorry, I don't want to interrupt you.
Yes. So this is a bit our mix. So our mix will be different. With Huminess, we'll be a very small part of our sales and we are not Targeting to grow that part. Instead, we want to transform the customer from bituminous to single ply and to liquid applied membranes.
Okay. So there is a reserve of market share for Firestone if you are able to replace Within the global market, the BT Venus membrane buys the solution developed by Firestone. So you can gain market share whatever the Underlying market growth, is it a fair assumption?
Yes. You see that I think a bit on Chart 17, Where we differentiated between the roofing market and the flat roofing systems and then the single ply roofing systems where Firestone is the leader. And here we try to show that this is really the most growing market or technology within these flat roofing systems.
Very clear. Thank you very much. And happy New Year.
Thank you.
The next question comes from the line of Vora Uchte with Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead. Good morning. Just one question from me. I wanted to ask if you guys are considering issuing hybrid bond?
Yes. Thank you. I give this question to Geraldine, who is Expert on hybrid bonds, green bonds and whatever is hot in the bond market.
Good morning. No, we do not intend to issue a hybrid bond. We don't need. It will be a vanilla one.
And again, I want to really stress here, we have achieved already end of 2019 all our New parameters on the strong balance sheet. And this is what we continue to do. That's also why I'm very pleased that Even we probably finance only 50% of the deal through intermediate and then maybe a bond and Half of it comes straightforward from cash. And if I look at the latest cash numbers for 2020, maybe we even Do a bit better. So very solid financial side here for this deal.
Thank you. And just maybe for other questions, We don't intend to do anything with equity. So there will be no hybrid bond as Geraldine said. We also will have At the moment, we plan for a straightforward cash dividend, so you don't have to expect any equity Financing from us in the future.
Okay. Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Sven Eressel with ODDO BHF. Please go ahead. Mr.
Edesfeld, your line is open. You may ask your question. Mr. Edesard, maybe your line is on mute.
Hello? Can you hear me? Hello?
Yes, we hear you well.
Hello, sorry about that. Happy New Year to all of you. Two follow-up questions. I wanted to have more information on the plant cost. You bought Firestone for 1.9x revenue.
Obviously, for Greenfield, it should be lower than that. Can you give us an indication of the money you should invest to get $1 of revenues? That's the first question. And the second one is a follow-up on your exposure to advanced plastic. Obviously, it should Sensible to oil price, does that mean if oil price goes up 10%, your cost related to plastic goes up 10%?
And can you tell us how much this cost represent in terms of revenue of Firestone? Thank you.
Yes. Thank you for the question. So obviously, this is a low capital intense business, meaning that The value of the business is in the technology, the product systems, all the people in the lab we have, all the specifiers we have And the brand we have and the trust by the customer. So that's the value of the business on the manufacturing side, but fortunately, that's not that heavy. Nevertheless, we have one of the maybe the best footprint in the industry with 50 manufacturing facilities, Which is excellent and especially also having 8 insulation board factories that I think is creating and I'm very happy Sorry, sorry, I was a bit off mute.
I hope you could you hear me?
Yes, it was fine for me.
Okay, super. So very happy that Firestone made the wise decisions in the last 10 years To build up that integrated insulating system, which is now industry leading and will be very value creating for us also Going forward. So on the factory side, we have already now we talked about the investments before that At the moment, we are on a depreciation level of less than 2% of sales. I think in our plan going forward, we allow 3%. So basically, in order to be able to build a new plant, maybe every year even, because this is possible in that type of Segment and Technologies.
So I think a very comfortable position. On your oil price question, we have to see that The products, let's say, the alternative solutions for roofing, let's say, asphalt, They are more depending on the crude oil price or on the upstream than we are. So our products are, I would say more independent from the oil price. And as I think explained before, we have a very solid The set of value creators giving us the pricing power to adjust the pricing where it needs to be.
Thank you.
The last question for today comes from the line of Mike Betts with Database Analysis. Please go ahead.
Thank you very much. My question relates to, I think, Slide 15 and the 39% of the market globally That's in Asia Pacific. We've not touched, I don't think, on it at all on the call. And I'm just wondering, presumably, that's mainly China. Firestone is not there and you've not I just wonder is that the basic bitumen felt market there?
Is it a market At all for you or for Firestone to be able to go out in Asia Pacific? Question 1. And question 2, if it is mainly China and low quality bitumen felt, Are there any kind of threat in terms of the Chinese companies growing globally? Thank you.
Hey, Mike. Yes, thank you. That's a great question on the country focus. So yes, I think when you look at Asia Pacific, of course, there's The biggest part is China, but not also forget about Japan and about India. So I think we want to keep our priorities Great.
It's a $50,000,000,000 market overall and it's growing at 4% to 5% for us. So we don't want to make the mistake now to make any step into uncharted territories. So We might come up with a plan for India, but not this year. Maybe that's something for next year, because we're going to stick to Europe, North America And Latin America, I think for the immediate future to keep our priorities straight. When you look at competition, that's a good question.
You will see that we are now really competing At the forefront of innovation and sustainability, which is until now driven by Western Companies, also the way we are embedded in those markets is there is at the moment No competition from China. And due to this embeddedness from the push pull distribution channels, innovation, local regulations, It's not easy to enter from for an outsider. So again, we are always we are always respectful Full and paranoid about any competition, but I think we are in a good territory here from that perspective.
Understood. Thank you.
All right. Hey, France, What's exciting? I think we are that was the last question for this meeting. Again, I'm very grateful you could all join. Thank you for that.
That's a great start of the year. I heard a lot of reports that 2021 Might be a great year for M and A, and I'm a bit proud that we maybe have started that to come true and especially under the circumstances. Again, we are very proud to be now with this new iconic company Firestone Building Products. Thanks very much for joining. Again, we are fully available whenever you need to talk to us the next days.
Please do so. We are excited To share and discuss. By then, again, Happy New Year to all of you and hopefully, we can also meet personally later this year. Have a great Thursday and bye bye.
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