Good morning. A very warm welcome to the 2024 Installment of our Best of Switzerland Conference. This is actually already the second day of the conference, but the start of the physical conference. We have two very packed days of agenda ahead of us. We have around 170 investors attending. We have 49 corporates being present, and there's gonna be north of 250 meetings, which will happen over these days. In terms of logistics, you will see outside there's screens, which show you the agenda, also where the meetings are actually taking place. If you need any support, there's our nice staff at the welcome desk who's happy to help. Also, if you need to have logistical changes or changes in times of meetings.
Enjoy the days very much. As I say, this is a flagship event, and glad that you can all be here. Without much further ado, I would like to hand over to Sergio, our Group CEO, for a quick welcome message.
Welcome to our Annual Best of Switzerland Conference. Let me start by saying thank you for the trust and confidence you place in UBS and for joining us today. It is our privilege to bring this group of clients on the corporate and investor side together in our home market. This is the 27th time that we are hosting this flagship conference. This continuity underscores the relevance of Switzerland and our Swiss clients to UBS, and the importance of the Swiss equity market, both domestically and internationally. You are about to hear from market-leading companies, companies that have shaped Switzerland's reputation as one of the world's most innovative and competitive economies globally. We are envied as a small nation that punches well above its weight. This is largely due to our diverse corporate landscape, consisting of both large multinationals and SMEs.
And while some try to suggest a conflict between larger and smaller firms, a key concern for me, I am convinced that it is the combination of large and small, of domestic and international, and of broad-based and specialized firm, that has made Switzerland the prosperous country we know. At UBS, we take our responsibility to Switzerland, our economy, and our communities seriously. Thanks to our financial strengths, strong Swiss roots, and international connectivity, we can offer expertise and solutions to support companies, both big and small. As a partner to over 200,000 large, medium, and small companies and 1,000 pension funds, we help businesses succeed and thrive by providing financing, advice, and access to our global network and international presence. The integration with Credit Suisse has further broadened and deepened the offering of products and services to our Swiss and international clients.
As such, we are an even stronger pillar of Switzerland's position as the leading international wealth management hub. It is this position that allows our country to attract excess savings from around the world, lowering the financing cost for our households and corporations. I'm pleased with the progress we have made in our integration over the past 15 months. We are also mindful of the challenges we will be facing in the next phase, in particular, when it comes to client migration and IT adjustments. Looking ahead, the macroeconomic outlook is increasingly uncertain, with ongoing geopolitical tensions, monetary easing, and the U.S. elections contributing to heightened volatility. At the same time, companies are weighing up the opportunities and challenges created by emerging technologies such as generative AI, increasing regulation, and geopolitical and reputational risks.
You can continue to count on us for strategic advice, thought leadership, and to stay on top of market trends as you navigate this increasingly complex environment. I wish you a productive and enjoyable conference.
Thank you very much, Sergio, and at this point I would like to warmly welcome on stage Sabine Keller-Busse, our President of UBS Switzerland, and of our Personal and Corporate Banking business. Welcome, Sabine.
Thank you, Jens. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. It's been a year since we started the integration of Credit Suisse, Swiss Bank into UBS. I'm now pleased to give you an update on the importance of our home market and our way forward here in Switzerland. After we were asked by Swiss authorities to step in to rescue Credit Suisse, we stabilized its client, its client's franchise in a matter of weeks. The merger of the Swiss entities in July of this year was an important milestone, and we are now in the middle of a big task of integrating the two banks. The Credit Suisse crisis showed the importance of having a sound and sustainable business model, with a pricing that reflects the underlying risks and allows for adequate levels of profitability.
It is therefore our duty to fix the structural issues that we inherited, and get back to the return levels UBS had before the acquisition. Only with this, we can remain a strong and reliable long-term partner for our clients and the Swiss economy. The rescue of Credit Suisse by UBS combines two leading franchises in Switzerland, and both UBS clients and former Credit Suisse clients are benefiting from our combined strength. We are excited that our clients will enjoy a greater offering, closer proximity, and even better client experience, and we are totally committed to our Swiss clients and our home market. UBS has grown into a global leader, but our identity has always been rooted in our Swissness. Our heritage goes back over 160 years, and our story includes the integration of more than 500 financial businesses, including banks, asset managers and brokers.
Each of these acquisitions and mergers have enriched our culture and contributed to our wealth of experience. The acquisition of Credit Suisse is a continuation of that story. Credit Suisse itself has a long and rich history, going back to pioneer Alfred Escher in the middle of the 19th century. For the vast majority of its history, it was a good and solid bank, both in Switzerland and internationally. It had built strong client relationships and a highly quality workforce, which we are excited to have welcomed at UBS here in Switzerland. Switzerland is not only UBS heritage and home market. Today, it remains one of the key pillars of the group's strategy. It is also the region where we deploy around 30% of our capital, which is more than any other region, and earn a similar proportion of revenues. It is also where we employ most people.
We are proud to be the country's third largest private employer. We invest a lot into developing the next generation of talent, with 2,300 junior staff currently in our apprenticeship and trainee programs. This is equal to the sum of the two banks' pre-acquisition. And the survey by Universum recently showed that business students in Switzerland choose UBS as their preferred employer. With CHF 2.6 billion in taxes paid by the corporation and our employees in 2023, UBS is one of the country's largest taxpayers, and deeply embedded in the local economy, as purchases of goods and services for almost CHF 4 billion per year demonstrate. Furthermore, we are providing our home market with around CHF 350 billion in credit.
Our global reach, combined with our country-wide footprint and cutting-edge products, services, and capabilities, makes us unique in Switzerland. This has earned us the label Best Bank in Switzerland in each of the last 10 years. It is our commitment and responsibility towards our clients to be a reliable and stable partner, not just when the sun is shining, but also, and even more importantly, in times of need. We demonstrated this commitment during the COVID crisis. We were able to play a leading role in establishing the SME lending program and providing our clients with much-needed liquidity in record speed. And last year, the UBS balance sheet for all seasons, with a strong capital position, proven risk standards, and a sustainable business model, allowed us to do even more. We stepped up when we were asked to stabilize the Swiss and international capital markets by rescuing Credit Suisse.
By the beginning of 2023, Credit Suisse structural lack of profitability and growing funding gap had practically made it unviable. In the Swiss bank division, structural issues were starting to hurt the bottom line even earlier, from the beginning of 2022. This is remarkable, given the sharp rise in interest rates during 2022 and 2023, which provided a strong tailwind to bank profits across the board. Instead, Credit Suisse Swiss bank profits declined by nearly half. Clients got uncomfortable with this and the growing list of scandals. Credit Suisse was slowly but steadily losing the foundation of its existence, the trust of its clients... and this eventually led to two bank runs over a time span of six months. The second of those two proved the final drop that caused the end of Credit Suisse as we knew it.
Fortunately, and to the benefit of the Swiss economy and global financial markets, UBS was stronger than ever. During that last bank run, a significant portion of the deposits that Credit Suisse had been losing were being transferred to us, and that sign of trust gave us the confidence that we could stabilize Credit Suisse as we stepped in to be part of the solution. That is exactly what we did. Outflows turned to inflows almost immediately following the merger of the holding companies in June 2023. We stabilized Credit Suisse's client franchise, protecting its value, and most importantly, providing certainty and safety to clients. We have also been successful in keeping our best staff. We gained many great people from Credit Suisse who are further thriving at UBS.
And where advisors did decide to leave, we have been able to keep the vast majority of the assets of the clients they served. Contrary to some of the noise in the public space, our indicators show growing support for the combined bank. For example, the surveys we conduct show improvements in people's opinion of UBS across Credit Suisse clients and the broader public. Our strong business momentum is another indicator, and we frequently get unprompted feedback from clients that they are grateful that we rescued Credit Suisse. The rescue of Credit Suisse and the subsequent business stabilization was followed by an intense period, stretching over more than twenty weeks, during which we thoroughly assessed various possible options for the Swiss bank. The conclusion of our thorough analysis was that a full integration into UBS was the only realistic scenario, given structural issues at Credit Suisse.
We took this decision in the best interest of stakeholders, most important of which are clients, as well as the Swiss financial center. Since then, we have been executing on the integration with focus and determination, combining speed and the necessary precaution. We have already achieved several key milestones so far, most notably the successful merger of our two Swiss legal entities on the first of July of this year. This laid the foundation for the most critical part of the process, migrating clients over to the UBS platform, which will eventually unlock the full synergy potential. For some more complex clients, we have already started a manual onboarding process, but for most clients in Switzerland, the migration will happen in waves throughout twenty twenty-five.
We are determined to make this transition as easy and seamless as possible for our clients, and we are excited at the prospect of unlocking the full benefits of the merger for them. We will operate from one platform, allowing our clients to benefit from enhanced capabilities and an expanded offering. Firstly, as we reported in April of this year, we aligned the Credit Suisse business setup to that of UBS to support a more cohesive client experience. At UBS, we are convinced our client needs are best served by business divisions, which specialize on specific client needs, but closely collaborate on a regional level. This model allows clients to benefit from global products and expertise tailored to regional needs, while allowing us to unlock efficiencies of scale. Credit Suisse financial and segment reporting was substantially different from UBS's.
The Credit Suisse Swiss bank perimeter, as you can see on this slide, contained much more than just the personal and corporate bank. In the rest of this presentation, we will focus on the combined personal and corporate banking division within Switzerland. Where we talk about Credit Suisse P&C, both today and in terms of historical figures, we are referring to the aligned P&C scope with Credit Suisse, which offers better transparency for comparisons. P&C will continue to be UBS's second largest division, contributing close to 30% of the group's pre-tax profit. In personal banking, we now serve over three million personal clients or around a third of Swiss households. Clients know us for our leading digital offering and premium products and service. Swiss corporate and institutional clients have always been at the heart of both UBS and Credit Suisse.
What differentiates us from competitors is our holistic offering and global connectivity. We now serve more than two hundred thousand corporate and institutional clients, including a third of all corporates in Switzerland. For large caps, UBS and Credit Suisse footprints were very similar. However, for other corporates and real estate clients, and particularly in the SME space, UBS had a significantly larger footprint, banking around 70% more firms than Credit Suisse, and we remain fully focused on these clients. In P&C, as this is the case for the group as a whole, our strategy did not change with the acquisition of Credit Suisse. It was enhanced, as was the offering in our personal, corporate, and institutional clients.
Having said that, there are very few areas of the former Credit Suisse business that do not fit our proven risk appetite or do not have a clear connection to the Swiss economy. From these, we are reallocating capital and investment into our strategic franchises. But let me be clear, Credit Suisse clients will be able to find at UBS almost everything they had before, and more. It is only in a few small areas where this is not the case, and these areas add up to far less than 1% of our business and client base. To give an example, we are discontinuing factoring, a risky type of lending UBS stopped years ago. Fewer than 200 clients were using this service at Credit Suisse, and we are working jointly with them to find alternatives where possible.
But now let's move on to what's in it for our clients. Personal banking is strategic to our Swiss business, and clients will benefit from our consistent investments into products, services, and capabilities. Thanks to our country-wide reach, Credit Suisse clients will have access to double the amount of branches Credit Suisse had on its own. We are closing duplicate branch location and will keep the best ones. And more Credit Suisse clients will now get the service of a dedicated advisor. For clients who can and want to conduct their banking business online, we are Switzerland's most digital bank. Over the past three years, we have invested more than CHF 300 million into digitizing our products and services, and we've seen mobile banking app usage increase by more than 40% in the last 18 months alone.
Investing in our digital capabilities continues to be a top strategic priority for the future. Our combined scale gives us even more firepower in terms of investment spend. By combining the best digital and AI experts across UBS and Credit Suisse, we will lift our already leading digital offering to an even higher level. We have compared our digital offering to CSX, and we'll create a best of both worlds experience by incorporating some of its most attractive features before the migration, and this will benefit all of our clients. We will also continue to operate Bank-n ow, one of Switzerland's leading consumer finance banks, as a 100% subsidiary of UBS Switzerland AG. Combining the strong corporate and institutional franchises, our clients will get access to an even broader set of products and services.
For example, we now offer a full range of expert financing products for SMEs and for large corporates in Switzerland by embedding Credit Suisse's complementary capabilities as lead arranger. All our clients can now benefit from the leading strengths of Credit Suisse mid-market capabilities. On the other side, former Credit Suisse small and mid-sized clients can now use M&A and succession planning services, for which a higher client and DSI threshold existed at Credit Suisse. In this way, we can provide an even more comprehensive service to family-owned businesses and SMEs. To support their corporate activities abroad, former Credit Suisse clients can now access our local coverage teams, providing corporate banking services in Hong Kong, Singapore, New York, and Frankfurt. In IB research, clients from both the UBS and Credit Suisse sides have access to a broader coverage universe.
We have now expanded our coverage of Swiss-listed stocks beyond the combined coverage of both banks before the merger, which benefits both our corporate and institutional clients. And as we integrate our offering, we continue to innovate. For example, we recently launched Instant Business Credit and e-banking for corporate clients. So as you can see, we are determined to make the UBS Credit Su- Credit Suisse combination a win-win for clients and shareholders. Only then we can create sustainable value for the long run. As we continue to focus on our clients, we are also fixing Credit Suisse's structural issues in P&C. A deeper dive into these reveals a clear necessity to restructure certain parts of the business. Credit Suisse had realized this too and had started addressing these issues in twenty twenty-two. By then, it was too late.
Firstly, at UBS, building holistic client relationships is a strategic priority that fits with our disciplined approach to capital. This was less the case historically at Credit Suisse, which is why some client relationships are now over-reliant on lending. Sometimes these loans were priced at levels that did not reflect the underlying risks or did not even cover the cost of capital. This issue was made worse by declining trust that clients had in CS. They transferred their money out and did less and less business, while their loan balances remained unchanged. Secondly, risk standards were not adequately set and consistently enforced, resulting in a credit book that caused P&L volatility. Over the last year, Credit Suisse positions created six times as much Stage III Net Credit Impairments as UBS's per billion of loans. Personal banking had a suboptimal footprint, and it was chronically underinvested in.
This led to structurally low profitability in that segment. The CSX app could only go so far in masking the underlying issues in the retail segment as a whole. And lastly, continuous deposit outflows left the bank with a significant and expensive loan overhang and deposit shortfall of around CHF 65 billion, or nearly 30% of Credit Suisse Switzerland's balance sheet at the time. And these issues undermined the profitability and stability of Credit Suisse, which eventually became fatal. That's why we are convinced, as we have always been, that our business has to be sustainably profitable. Only a profitable business is a healthy business. It is a prerequisite to remain a safe, strong, and reliable partner to our clients and to the Swiss economy in the long term. One immediate priority, therefore, is to restore the profitability to the level that UBS achieved before the merger.
A pre-tax return on attributed equity of around 19% is appropriate for a high-quality franchise like ours. We aim to get back to this level by capitalizing on opportunities for growth, right-sizing our cost base, and optimizing our balance sheet. Starting with our opportunities for growth. Switzerland is an economy known for its stability. Growth is modest, but steady and resilient. Interest rates are structurally low and on a downward trajectory since the Swiss National Bank was the first across developed countries to start cutting rates in March. Considering these macro factors, we do see opportunities to expand and grow faster than GDP in areas of strategic importance, and it starts with making sure all of our clients are aware of the benefits of the extended offering that is now available for them. Together with our Wealth Management division, we are also focused on growing our business with entrepreneurs.
No other bank is able to cover the corporate and private financial needs of these clients as well as we can, and that means no one else is able to capture the value creation during the life cycle of an entrepreneur. It starts with supporting business founders as they set up and grow their company by delivering the whole firm to our clients. When the owner, at some point, fully or partially sells the enterprise, usually in an M&A transaction or an IPO, we support the entrepreneur's transition to investor and become their wealth manager. As the entrepreneur's wealth manager, we advise them on how to invest their liquidity, and often we can show them private market opportunities to invest in other entrepreneurs' businesses, which is where we go full circle.
Other areas where we see growth opportunities are our leading affluent franchise, where we can leverage technology even better, asset servicing, retirement planning, and sustainable finance. Credit Suisse riskier and more capital-intensive business mix should have translated into a meaningfully lower cost-income ratio compared to UBS, but it didn't. Our cost-income ratios have been broadly similar over the years. That means Credit Suisse cost efficiency did not compensate for lower capital efficiency, which led to subpar return on equity. Therefore, an important lever to return to sustainable levels of profitability is to reduce cost, painful as they may be. Credit Suisse had already started this process when we merged. A comprehensive restructuring plan was in place, which we are continuing and accelerating where possible. In addition to that, we're removing duplication across all areas: technology, real estate, branch footprint, and staff. But integrating our operations will require significant investment.
We expect to incur over CHF 1.5 billion for this purpose, demonstrating the size of the task at hand. On staff reductions, we expect the vast majority to come from natural attrition, retirements, and internal mobility. In total, and as we said up front, we expect around 3,000 forced redundancies in Switzerland, of which 1,000 directly related to the integration of our Swiss businesses. We are committed to minimizing the impact on employees by treating them fairly, providing them with financial support, outplacement services, and retraining opportunities. Our aim is to enable those affected to take advantage of a quite healthy Swiss job market, where more open positions in finance are available than there are job seekers. Our clients are facing a challenging environment from an economic and monetary perspective.
Interest rates are much higher than what our clients have become used to for more than a decade, and adding to that pain, deposit funding has become scarcer for banks, which means loans increasingly have to be financed with more expensive capital market funding. At the same time, export sectors have to deal with a strong Swiss franc and slow growth in our main export markets. The manufacturing PMI is in contraction territory for the last 18 months, which is longer than during the financial crisis. As their partner and house bank, we are helping our clients navigate the environment. We are doing this despite higher liquidity and capital requirements, which make it more expensive to deploy balance sheet. We are also facing higher funding costs from having inherited Credit Suisse's funding imbalance.
At the same time, we have to address Credit Suisse's over-reliance on lending and inadequate pricing in order to remain a beacon of strength for our clients. When we merged, Credit Suisse had initiated substantial balance sheet reductions. Lending exposure was being reduced fast, especially in the real estate space. With the added strength of UBS, we can address excessive capital intensity in a much smarter and more holistic way. We can afford to take a long-term perspective. This provides clients with more time and flexibility while we work towards sustainable profitability levels. Our offer to clients is to broaden our relationship where needed. UBS strength is in our holistic approach to client relationships, and this is part of our DNA and valued by clients because they know they can come to UBS for all their banking needs.
Where a broader relationship is not a viable option, we have to find a solution that is best for our client and for the firm, always with the aim to keep the client. This can include higher prices to compensate for the risks taken by UBS in the form of lending. It's important to highlight that we've always been very disciplined when it comes to balance sheet deployment at UBS. Regular reviews of economic profitability across our client relationships, new and existing, were always part of the discipline. Having these types of client conversation is never easy, but from my experience, the vast majority of our clients understand the rationale. Going back to our universal bank, comprising all business areas and clients in Switzerland, our commitment to our home market is stronger than ever.
Underpinning this commitment, we aim to maintain our loan book in Switzerland at around CHF 350 billion. We want to be the partner of choice for customers and to support them on all financial matters. And we will remain a key pillar of the Swiss Financial Center and the Swiss economy overall. With that, let's move to Q&A.
Should we move to there?
Mm-hmm.
Good morning from my side as well. My name is Mate Nemes. I'm a Swiss bank analyst at UBS. Sabine, thank you for the presentation. Very comprehensive. There are a few topics I wanted to discuss a bit more in detail with you. I think it's, it's clear that you've accomplished a lot over a short period of time. How are you feeling about the group and specifically about P&C today? What are the key areas that keep you busy?
Well, first of all, I think the integration as we have progressed today is at a point where we can all be very satisfied, having achieved all the milestones we have set ourselves. So since the decision to really integrate the Swiss business, we have moved diligently, focused, determined, and as I mentioned, we have been able to really achieve the significantly important milestone of combining the two legal entities by merging the two Swiss banks. And that was important because it has given, for the employees now, really another step change. We are operating as one bank. You have all the employees of Credit Suisse, we could really welcome under the UBS roof, working together.
Having said that, we are still operating two product lines, so you have UBS clients on UBS products and IT platforms, Credit Suisse clients at the IT platform. So that is definitely something that will keep us busy going forward, ensuring we are preparing for that migration that is going to happen next year. Keeping busy, I would say, obviously, keeping close to clients is keeping us very busy. Competition is very strong in Switzerland, and for us, it's important to really stay close to the clients, make sure that all banking services the clients need, because while we are integrating, all the needs are remaining, so that we are really staying close, being able to fulfill all these services and making sure that all clients get that commitment delivered every day.
And as I said, so far, we have done very, very well. We have been able to stabilize the client franchise, and we've even been able to attract CHF 30 billion net new deposits since the acquisition. We have been able to even keep the vast majority of clients, client assets, of those pockets where advisors have left. So a lot of that keeps us busy, and then, something which keeps us always busy, but I think more, more than in the past as well, is what's happening on the technology front. So we see GenAI, we see innovation moving, and they're not waiting. So, here we are already very busy and focused in really making sure we are staying at the technological forefront, embedding AI solutions in client services, in supporting our client advisors.
Quite, quite a lot.
It sounds so. So it is clear, I think, that tremendous effort has been going into the integration. You've achieved a lot, be it asset retention, be it expanded offering, be it organizational alignment. What do you see as the biggest challenges today?
I would say one of the clearly biggest challenges is something you haven't done very often, which is migrating a huge client franchise from one platform to the other. So I think this is something we are very focused on in preparing. I get a lot of support because we have so many experts in the firm, so Mike Dargan on his tech department, Michelle Bereaux, leading the integration, so we're all working collectively and ensuring that we can really master that challenge, and we are well prepared when we go into the next year.
Then, I would say another challenge is. I have mentioned that we are now really, I would say, offering even more to our clients, that they're very committed, and our clients feel it.
So, we have always been clear to the commitment, but nevertheless, there's something uncontrollable out there in the public, which is always questioning what we are doing and if we're doing the right thing. And I think it's important, and that is one of the reasons I've used this conference as well, to really make sure that it's very clear that everybody understands our commitment to Switzerland, to the Swiss economy, but more importantly, to all our clients, and to really make sure everybody understands we are holding that commitment. So we are putting money where our mouth is, so to speak, by committing CHF 350 billion of credit to our clients in Switzerland, which we have.
I would say it's the first time we are getting out with these numbers, but to me, it's important to, I would say, engage in that debate and really make crystal clear that we are standing up and want to play this role, and Switzerland is important to us.
That's very clear. Thank you. I wanted to switch gears a little bit and talk about perhaps to another major topic, which is an exogenous driver rather than a UBS specific, and that is interest rates. The Swiss National Bank has been leading the charge globally in terms of reducing and normalizing policy rates. I wanted to ask you about the impact of lower rates on the Swiss business. How do you see that going forward?
There are different angles if you look at it, so one angle, obviously, if rates are lowered, usually this fuels a bit the economy and helps the economy because lending is better available, and at the same point in time, you can see a lot more activity on the investment product side, and that benefits everybody because being a bank in an economically thriving economy is helping, but obviously, as a bank, we see it on our net interest income line as well.
We've already given guidance that on a quarterly comparison to the second quarter for the third quarter, we will see a low single-digit decline, which is primarily driven by the second rate cut happening in June that the SNB did, the 25 basis points they went down. We've provided some guidance on comparing last year's fourth quarter on annualized. For 2024, we would expect high single-digit impact, and that means that we need to offset that to the extent possible through generating other income lines. Having said that, here it's beneficial to be part of a broader group, because if we are looking at UBS as a group, and we are part of that group, obviously, we have a very diversified business mix.
So if interest rates even moving down, we have other parts of the bank which very much benefit. So in a way, we have a built-in hedge being part of the group.
Thank you. That makes a lot of sense. I wanted to touch on another topic, and that is the risk environment. I think Switzerland, rather uniquely in a global context, avoided a meaningful, really high spike in inflation, and we have seen a certain benefit from the Swiss franc. Now we are approaching a point where perhaps the disadvantages are starting to outweigh the benefits. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what you're seeing in the portfolio, how the current environment is impacting the business.
I think looking at the Swiss franc here, honestly, the strength of the Swiss franc, I'm less worried. As we were talking about interest rate, perhaps that pressure on the Swiss franc, that upward pressure gets a bit tempered. Looking back at how Swiss corporates have done over the past periods when the Swiss franc was already very, very high or very, very strong, I think there's a high resilience, and I would say to the broader large corporate space, they have learned to deal with this. They have a trained muscle on that end. What we're seeing more, and this from saying we are now having the combined portfolio, so we will see obviously some idiosyncratic situations in a larger client population on credit losses.
But overall, looking into the macroeconomics and seeing what's happening for us relevant export market, I was mentioning the manufacturing Purchasing Managers' Index earlier on, which is an all-time low with growth projections. So that is something obviously for certain industries within the Swiss market that needs to be well managed and we need to be very well aware of. So overall, I would say we will remain on an elevated level, as we have seen now, but in a way a normalized form going forward.
Excellent. So both ends on the wheel, and on that note, Sabine, I wanted to thank you very much for your presentation-
Thank you.
and the insightful discussion. It's a pleasure to have you here in Wolfsberg. And those of you in the room, thank you for joining and watching the webcast. Thank you for watching.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you, Mate.