Good afternoon, and welcome to eMemory's third quarter 2022 webcast investor conference. Present today we have our president, Mr. Michael Ho, Head of IR, Miss Li-Jeng Chen , and the Director of the Finance Department, Miss Teresa Kuo, and PUFs ecurity Executive Vice President, Dr. Evans Yang. The format of today's event will be as follows. First, eMemory's president, Mr. Michael Ho, will provide a summary of our operations in the third quarter of 2022, followed by the outlook of our business. We will go into the Q&A session where our management team will be ready to answer your questions. Please feel free to submit your questions in the input box on the webcast window throughout the conference. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded and a webcast replay will be available within three hours after the conference is finished.
Please visit the website at www.ememory.com.tw under the Investor Relations section. As usual, before we begin, we would like to remind everyone that today's presentation may contain forward-looking statements that are subject to risk factors associated with the semiconductor and IP business. Please refer to the cautionary statement as shown on page three of today's presentation. Now, I would like to give the floor over to eMemory's President, Mr. Michael Ho.
Afternoon, everyone. Now, let's begin with our 2022 third quarter financial result. The third quarter revenue was TWD 791 million, down 0.7% sequentially, but up 33% year-over-year. Operating expenses were TWD 345 million, up 2.7% sequentially and up 24.3% year-over-year, mainly attributable to the increase in salary and other related human resources expenses, such as the increase in bonuses and the rewards. Operating income was TWD 445 million, with a decrease of 3.2% sequentially, but an increase of 40.7% year-over-year. The operating margin decreased by 1.5 percentage points sequentially, but increased by 3.0 percentage points year-over-year to 56.3%.
EPS for the quarter was TWD 5.45 and ROE was 63.7%. Next, let's move on to revenue contribution by licensing and royalty. Licensing in the third quarter accounted for 18.3% of the total revenue, down 27.9% sequentially and down 23.3% year-over-year. In US dollars, the licensing decreased 29.8% sequentially and decreased 28.8% year-over-year. Royalties in the third quarter contribute to 81.7% of the total revenue, increasing 8.5% sequentially and increasing 59.3% year-over-year. Or up 5.8% sequentially and up 48.2% year-over-year in U.S. dollars. Total revenue in the third quarter of 2022 grew 33% as compared to previous year.
In terms of U.S. dollars, the total revenue increased 23.8% compared to previous year. With that, I will comment on our revenue contributions by specific IPs. NeoBit accounted for 26.2% of total licensing revenue in the third quarter, decreasing 14.5% sequentially and decreasing 2.9% year-over-year. Its royalty accounted for 36.2% of total royalty, down 2% sequentially, but up 21.9% year-over-year. NeoFuse accounted for 46.5% of total licensing revenue in the third quarter, down 28.6% sequentially and down 28.1% year-over-year. The main reason is that because many of our NeoFuse customers have adopt PUF-based Security Solutions, such as Root of Trust, to upgrade their security functions.
Since royalties for PUF-based Solutions consist of both PUF-based and existing NeoFuse royalties, it will drive the growth of future royalties. In terms of total royalty revenue, NeoFuse royalty increased 15.8% sequentially and 92.6% year-over-year. Accounting for 60.2% of total royalties. PUF-based Security IPs contribute to 13.7% of licensing revenue, decreasing 57.8% sequentially, but increasing 611.7% year-over-year. Its royalty accounted for 0.3% of total royalties, which is up 209.5% compared to the previous quarter and up 23,456% compared to the previous year. As PUF-based Solutions are adopted in IoT, industrial IoT, Wi-Fi, DPU, video ISP, set-top box, SSD controller, and automotive fields.
For MTP technology accounted for 13.6% of total licensing revenue, increasing 28.1% sequentially, but decreasing 63.1% year-over-year. Royalty from MTP increased 3.3% sequentially and 78% year-over-year. From the first three quarters of 2022, the licensing and the revenue are as follows. NeoBit licensing revenue increased 0.7% year-over-year, and the royalty increased 17.7%, accounting for 34.5% of total revenue. NeoFuse licensing revenue decreased 0.3%, but royalty increased 77.8% year-over-year, contributing to 56.9% of the total revenue.
PUF-based Security IP licensing revenue increased 610.4% year-over-year, while royalty revenue increased 36,222% year-over-year, accounting for 3.3% of the total revenue. MTP technology licensing revenue decreased 52.3% year-over-year, but royalty revenue increased 80.7%, accounting for 5.3% of total revenue. Now, let's look at the royalties for 8-in wafers and 12-in wafers. For 8-in wafers, which account for 46.7% of royalties, decreased 0.8% sequentially, but increased 42.3% year-over-year. 12-in wafers contributed to 53.3% of royalties, increasing 18.1% sequentially and 77.9% year-over-year. In total, 149 product tape-outs were completed in the third quarter.
Within that, tape-out from 6-nm and 7-nm continue to contribute to revenue. We will provide more information in the management report later. In the next section, I will address our future outlook. We expect the growth of revenue to continue in the first quarter. For licensing revenues, decline in the licensing this year was due to waiving technology license fees, but increasing production royalties for several foundries to accelerate the development of licensed technology platforms, especially for MTP-related technologies. We expect license fees to grow significantly next year, driven by PUF-based related Solutions. For royalty revenues, the growth momentum of royalty will be driven by penetration rate increase from 28-nm, 12-nm, 16-nm, and 6-nm and 7-nm. Move on to new IP technology and business development. One, NeoFlash technology platforms are developed in several foundries, targeting the embedded flash market.
Two, our PUF-based Security crypto coprocessor IP, PUFcc, is PSA-certified Level 2 ready, which will accelerate the adoption on Arm's platform. Three, PUF-based IPs have completed N5 tape-out and is moving to N4 and N3. This concludes my comments. Next, we will enter the Q&A section. Thank you.
Thank you, Michael. This concludes our prepared statement. We will now begin the Q&A session. Please submit your questions in the input box on the webcast window and you will enter a queue. Should you wish to raise your question in Chinese, we will translate it to English before our management team answers your questions. We will now collect the questions and begin our Q&A session.
这个问题最近常被问到。美国最新的规范主要是针对最高算力的HPC相关的产品，而我们目前并没有相关的客户导入。我们目前六奈米跟七奈米的客户全都是美日的客户为主。另外，由于公司的技术为原生的发明，目前对于授权对象并没有特别的限制，谢谢。
Question, it was asked a lot by our investors, so we consolidated everything into one. The most commonly asked question we hear about these days is what is the impact of the latest U.S. sanctions on the company? Michael will answer this question.
The section mainly targets the HPC related products for AI applications. We currently have no Chinese customers in this area as mostly our leading edge customers are U.S. and Japan based. Also, since we developed our intellectual property rather than licensing U.S. technology, we are not directly affected by the sanctions. Thank you.
第二题是，由于公司的权利金计价是以 percentage of 这个代工价，就是 royalty rate，有一个比例。那当最近这个跟上季一样，我们其实也回答过，就是这方面的杂音其实越来越多了。那请问我们对那个代工厂的趋势的看法，那当然这是我们自己的看法。我们现在看到的状况。那这题请 Michael 回答。
我们目前已知的晶圆代工厂的客户，只有一些成熟的制程为主的部分代工厂对它的代工价格有所折让，这是我们所知道的。但是最大代工厂目前还是维持既有的定价策略，然后我们对未来的平均的每片晶圆权利金上涨的趋势，依旧没有改变，这主要是因为我们在先进制程的比例持续增加，然后 PUF 跟 MTP 的权利金的 ratio 也会比 OTP 还来得高，所以这个我想会带动我们的 ASP 持续的成长。谢谢。
Question is since eMemory's royalty is based on a percentage of foundry price. There's a lot of noise regarding this, and we actually answered this last quarter. We'll give our thoughts on the current trends of foundry pricing again. We'd like to note that this is purely our thoughts, but Michael will answer what we think about the current trends of foundry pricing?
Currently, only some small foundry customers offer discount price. The major foundries, however, will still maintain their existing pricing strategy into next year. We remain confident in our ASP growth trend due to the licensing contribution from more leading edge technologies and higher royalty rates from the PUF-based and MTP-related technologies. Thank you.
这一题有关景气，其实也不是只有台积电，OK，现在这个晶圆厂，或是客户，特别是晶圆厂方面，他认为库存修正会持续到明年的上半年，那这部分对公司的影响，请 Michael 回答。
谢谢。我想大概大家也了解，我们的权利金都是认列前一季晶圆厂的出货，那就权利金的收入而言，对景气的反应落差会落后晶圆厂一个季度。那以现在十月收到的权利金为例，我们确实有看到部分二线代工厂的权利金有下滑，但是因为我们在十二寸的渗透率现在才开始提升，所以整体的成长来自于最大的代工厂的十二寸的权利金还在成长。而明年上半年我们看到主要代工厂产能的利用率下滑，主要是在像七奈米跟六奈米这个部分，那这个部分对于我们公司的权利金的贡献才刚开始，比例非常的低，而且客户也才陆续进入了这个量产的阶段，那明年会持续地成长，加上来自于PUF的授权金，我们预期会大幅地成长。整体而言，我们受景气的影响相对较小，我们很有信心仍旧会维持长期的成长趋势。谢谢。
This next question has to do with the economic situation of the semiconductor industry. The question is TSMC believes that the impact of the inventory correction will continue into the first half of next year. What will be the impact on eMemory? This is not just for TSMC. I think foundry in general has this kind of point of view, so Michael will answer this question.
Royalties are recognized in the quarter after foundry shipment, so our October royalty already reflect the lower utilization rate in some small foundries. However, since our 12- in penetration rate has just started to take off, the overall royalty growth and the penetration rate will be contributed from major foundries. The decline in utilization from major foundries was mainly in six and seven nanometer. However, this is a very small percentage for us as customers are just starting production. We expect this will still grow next year. In addition, licensing from PUF-based will grow significantly next year, so we remain confident in our long-term growth trend. Thank you.
这一题是因为我们相关的公司，很多人的获利大概有一半以上，甚至超过全部是来自于汇兑收益台币贬值。所以这个投资人就是问说，为什么他们那么多台币贬值，为什么我们没有，就是我们为什么公司没有这个，你去看我们的那个业外，没有这个汇兑收益，那这一题请 Michael 回答。
我们公司一直来收到客户的美金之后，一般来讲都是立即把它换成台币，最主要是因为我们的支出都是用台币。由于账上没有美金，所以也就没有这个汇兑的收益。但是我们近期因为已经开始在美国跟日本设立分公司，以及看到美元的利差变大，所以我们会在之后保留美金在账上。谢谢。
The question that was asked is: Why didn't eMemory benefit from the devaluation of the Taiwan dollar? Michael will answer this question.
When we receive the revenue in U.S. dollars, we immediately convert it into Taiwan dollars to convert the expenses here in Taiwan. Recently, due to establishing our U.S. and the Japanese subsidiaries and the spread of high interest rates between the N.T. dollar and U.S . Dollar, we will be more flexible in keeping some U.S. dollars in our accounts in the future. Thank you.
然后这一题我想是大家都很关心的，尤其是最近，今年的 license fee 看起来是很疲弱。所以这个问题是有关，我们可不可以直接用这个 tape out 数，或者是这个 license 这个钱，那我就直接去推算这个公司未来的权利金呢？Michael，请你回答。
这个问题我想这边回答一下，就是因为我们看到每个tape out，因为客户的大小，那产品的应用跟量产的规模差异会很大，所以很难直接用这样的量化来推估。但是我们看到说，随着制程平台、技术种类的越来越多，我们的tape out数也越来越成长，那这个整个长期的成长趋势是很明确的。谢谢。
对，那等一下我们会解释为什么这个，有一题，就是为什么这个 license fee 今年没成长，那跟我们的策略有关。OK，那等一下会就 license fee 再回答一次。
The question is: Can we predict future royalties based on tape out numbers or license fees? Michael will answer this question.
Varies significantly in terms of customer size, production application, product application and the mass production scale. It is not easy to use them directly to predict the future revenue. However, with the increasing number of process platforms and the technologies, there is a clear long-term growth trend for tape outs and the licensing revenue. Thank you.
We figured out there is another licensing question later, which we'll ask, especially regarding why licensing decreased in the third quarter. We'll move on to our next question first.
这一题就是刚刚讲的，就是因为大家都会很 concern，这个授权金没成长，那可不可以请 Michael 解释一下。
我们今年的授权金看起来没有什么成长，但这主要是来自于我们针对MTP的这个部分，我们去年有一个比较大的授权金的收入，那我们今年针对MTP的技术，开始对一些晶圆代工厂采取了这个所谓的免授权金的一个策略，因为原本的占我们的授权金的比例就相对来讲少一点，但是我们借由这个方法可以扩大我们的授权范围，而且提高我们的这个权利金的比例，用来加速我们MTP在各个大工厂、各个代工厂的一个建制。那相较于去年的话，就刚刚提到，就是去年我们有一个比较大笔的MRAM收入，那我们预期在明年的授权金可以有，像PUF-based的一个solution的带动而有大幅的一个成长。谢谢。
This next question is asked by a lot of people as well. It has to do with licensing. Does this year's licensing decrease mean future licensing will also decline? Michael, please answer this question.
We waived the technology license fee to foundries, especially for MTP-related technology, but increased the production royalty rate. This will accelerate foundries' progress of building platforms for our technologies, which we expect to bring higher royalty contribution in the future. We also expect increased growth in licensing revenue next year, driven by PUF-based Solutions. Thank you.
PUF 在第二季有個蠻大的成長，那第三季就稍掉下來。請問這是不是受到景氣影響？那明年還會成長嗎？
好，谢谢。我这边解释一下，因为PUF的solution目前还是在一个初期的阶段，授权金的入账跟客户的take out时间会有一个很大的关联性。目前在pipeline的客户还有很多，大部分都是第一次使用这种security IP的客户，需要花比较多的时间教客户如何使用。那预期在我们跟Arm以及其他平台的合作，合作建构完成之后，整个导入的速度就会加速，进而带动授权案跟授权金的明显成长。谢谢。
This question is: compared to the second quarter, our PUF-based revenue declined in the third quarter. With the impact on the economy, will it continue to grow next year? Michael, please answer this question.
This is still early stage. There is a big correlation between the PUF license fee and the tape-out time of the customer. At present, there are many customers in the pipeline, and most of them are the first-time users of security IP, so it takes more time for customers to learn how to use it. We expect with incorporating our solution into Arm and other platforms, we will accelerate the adoption rate and lead to more significant contribution in revenue. Thank you.
PUF 的竞争对手是谁？我们 OTP 的竞争对手是 Synopsys。Synopsys 是不是也有 PUF 的技术？Security 一定要用到 PUF 吗？
我这边解释一下。那个Synopsys目前是没有PUF的技术，那目前在市场上有Intrinsic ID的SRAM PUF，但是这个SRAM PUF并不是很稳定。它有几个原因，一个是在电源开启后，那个数值会变调。那第二个的话，就是它的工作电压或者是温度改变以后，也会造成这个SRAM储存的数值改变。那第三个是一些杂讯也会造成SRAM的数值改变。那第四点就是你在长时间的使用情况下有不可靠性，也就是说这个数值也可能会改变。那以上种种就会造成SRAM PUF在使用上会有很大的问题。所以在我们的PUF推出之后，因为它有很好的稳定性跟可靠性，所以很快就受到大家的欢迎。那未来对于系统安全的要求会越来越严格，要达到Zero Trust的规格。那基本上Zero Trust就是never trust, always verify。要达到这样的要求，unique的ID就是必须要的。那PUF是晶片的指纹，而unique ID是unique ID最好的也是必须的一个方案。那因为它是利用每个晶片制程的微小差异的变化来产生的，所以在全世界上不会有两个IC会有同样的ID。
This next question is who are the competitors of PUF? And since Synopsys is our OTP competitor, do they also have PUF technology? And does security have to use PUF?
Don't have a PUF technology. Intrinsic ID has SRAM PUF on the market, but SRAM PUF is unstable due to the following reasons. One, the values will change after power on. Two, variations in operation voltage or temperature will also change the value of SRAM storage. Three, noise will also cause the value of SRAM to change. Four, long term use of SRAM is unreliable. All the issues mentioned above cause problems for chips when using SRAM PUF. Therefore, after introduction of our PUF, we have become very popular because our PUF have excellent stability and reliability. In the future, the requirement for system security will become more stringent to meet the Zero Trust spec, which means never trust, always verify. PUF is the chip fingerprint, which is the best and the necessary solution for unique ID.
Because it is generated by taking advantage of small differences in each chip process, no two chips will have the same ID. Thank you.
另外是竞争对手的问题。美国有一家叫Rambus，OK，也是我们客户，OK，因为它有做晶片。那Rambus它也有secure的solution，那请问跟公司的solution比起来有什么差异？
Rambus 他们只有算法相关的一个解决方案，那客户的晶片如果要使用的话，事实上它还是会缺少一个 Secure OTP 或者是 PUF IP 来作为一个晶片安全的信任根。
对，所以事实上 Rambus 除了客户之外，也是 partner。因为它有一些案子，是跟我们合作，那当然我们也有做它的部分，那基本上是这样的状况。
This question is also regarding a competitor, but also our partner and client. The company in question is called Rambus, and it also has a security solution. The investor is asking: What is the difference between Rambus' and eMemory solution?
We have algorithm-related solutions. If customers adopt Rambus solution, they will still lack of a secure OTP or PUFrt to serve as the chip Root of Trust. Thank you.
下一题是，公司成立以来，有一年是小幅衰退，就是2019年。那这一次的不景气看起来是比2019年更严重，那公司为什么仍有信心，还是会维持一个长期成长的趋势？对，Michael。
谢谢。那很谢谢这么关心我们，这么久的时间。那确实，我们在2019年公司的时候有一个小幅的衰退，主要的原因是那个时候的权利金仍然是以NeoBit为主。当年的NeoFuse的晶片量才刚累积达到一百万片。那现在来讲，NeoFuse的权利金已经成为主要的权利金，贡献，在十二寸的渗透率还蛮低的，加上hardware security的趋势才刚要开始，加速了PUF相关的solution的贡献。那这两个来讲，相对于NeoBit来讲，不管是授权金或权利金都要高很多，那这是结构上的一个很大的不一样，所以我们会有信心说，我们在之后，比较不会受到景气的影响。谢谢。
This question is submitted by a concerned person. eMemory experienced a small downturn in 2019. What are the reasons? Why is the company still confident that it will not be affected by the economic downturn, which is even worse than the one in 2019?
It was the main royalty revenue in 2019, and the NeoFuse only reached 1 million wafer production that year. Now, our main royalty contribution is from NeoFuse. The penetration rate in 12-in is still low, plus the trend for hardware security has just started, accelerating the contribution of PUF-based related solution. The latter two receive much higher license and royalty fees compared to NeoBit. Therefore, this is structurally different compared to our situation in 2019. Thank you.
还是这个在讲这个TSMC的六跟七奈米。看起来这个未来两季的修正幅度会有一定的幅度的修正，那对公司的实质的影响，其实刚刚有回答过，不过Michael你可以再解释清楚一点。谢谢。
刚刚有提到，就是我们目前在台积电六奈米跟七奈米的 tape out 才刚开始进入小量的量产，所以这部分占公司的营收的比例很低。因为产能松动，代工厂会更加努力，让更多的像十二奈米、十六奈米的客户继续往前 migrate。从这个几季的六奈米、七奈米的 tape out，你可以看到这个数字快速增加，我们也预期说随着客户的陆续量产，明年的成长会很大。谢谢。
This question is also about TSMC. TSMC says that 6-nm and 7- nm demand will be corrected significantly in the next two quarters. What is the impact on eMemory? We already kind of answered this question before, but I will invite Michael to elaborate further.
7-nm tape out at TSMC has only just started small volume production, and accounts for a very small percentage of the company. Because of the low utilization rate, foundry customers are encouraging the 12-nm and 16-nm chip customers to migrate forward, as evidenced by the rapid increase in the number of 6-nm and 7-nm tape outs in the past few quarters, which are all migrated from the 12-nm and 16-nm in their previous generation. We will expect the trend will be more obvious next year and drive our royalty growth further once 6-nm and 7-nm customers move into production. Thank you.
那跟 Arm 合作的 business model 是如何？要不要分他钱？要不要付他什么权利金或是授权金？因为这个我也常被问。那 Michael 你可以在这里更解释一下，嘿。
好，那我这边解释一下，我想最近我们跟Arm有一些joint promotion activity吼，那我们跟Arm的business model还是一样，是不是收取授权金跟权利金，那我们最主要是一起在推广这个security solution，那不需要付给对方任何的费用，或有任何的利润分享。谢谢。
This question is regarding Arm. The person asked. What is the business model for working with Arm? Do we need to share royalties or licensing fees with other parties? Michael, please answer.
As license fee and royalties, the joint activity is mainly for promotion. We don't need to pay the other party any fees or profit shares. Thank you.
这是不是有客户，因为我们有听说客户要求分散制造，那是不是有客户要求我们去分散我们的R&D，那这个对我们有没有什么影响？Michael。
蛮好的哦。我们一直以来都是授权给全世界各地的晶圆代工厂，那客户用我们的IP的好处就是他可以到任何一个地方去生产。那至于客户要去哪里生产，就由客户自己来决定。那目前我们并没有客户要求我们要分散R&D，但是我们今年在日本有成立了一个R&D team，那这个最主要是我们希望在那边recruit一些很有经验、做flash啊这些相关的人才。好，谢谢。
The question is asking, "Are there any customer requests to decentralize our R&D resources, and does this have any impact on eMemory?
Been licensing our IPs to foundries all over the world. The advantage of using our IP is that our customers can go to different locations for production. There is no such request from customers to decentralize our R&D outside of Taiwan. We did set up Japanese R&D team for the reason to recruit the talents from Japan region. Thank you.
中国公司，因为我们在中国也是有一些 design house 跟 fab，那他们跟我们授权的时候，是不是要经过美国政府许可？
这边我也说明一下，那因为我们的IP是自主的技术，那不需要美国或其他政府的许可，我们是可以直接授权给任何的一个对象。谢谢。
Also has to do with the American sanctions. The person asked, "Do Chinese companies have to obtain permission from the U.S. government to license with a company or eMemory?
These IP technologies are of our own invention. We don't need any U.S. or government approval, so we can license it directly to anyone. Thank you.
这个有关战争，这个我被很多人问过，OK。我们不touch我们认为会不会发生战争，OK。但是投资人会很担心，这个万一，也不住在台湾的人都认为这机率很大，OK。如果万一发生战争的时候，那我们公司有没有什么backup plan？那是不是有客户担心这种风险而不用我们公司的技术？Michael。
这是一个很严肃的问题。虽然我们主要的R&D都是在台湾，但是我们的IP的资料都是储存在云端的server，公司的专利权是我们在全世界各地的主要地区都有做注册，这些都是有受到国际法规的保护，所有权是在公司。只要用到公司的技术，不管是在哪个地区的晶片公司，或者是晶圆代工厂，都必须要支付授权金跟权利金。我想这是对公司股东的一个最大的保护。目前没有客户因为战争风险而没有用我们的IP。谢谢。
我很喜欢加一句话，就是说万一，万一它真的发生，那股东可能就，记得要去找律师，这个，因为那个这是国际法，所以只要是用到都要收。那或许台湾的 fab 因为战争怎么样，但是 outside of fab 那个 wafer 价已经涨到天上去，那股东记得要去请律师去 collect 这个 royalty。
Okay, that question is more serious, and Li-Jeng Chen says she gets asked this question a lot, but basically it concerns the potential war between Taiwan and China. Does the company have a backup plan if there is a war between the two sides of the Taiwan Strait? And are customers worried about the risk, and has this led to customers avoiding the company's technology? Michael, please answer.
Our main R&D is in Taiwan. Our IP data is stored in the cloud server. Our patents are registered in all major regions of the world and protected by international regulations. As long as the company's technology is used, regardless of the chip company or foundry, they must pay the license fee and royalty, which is the greatest protection for the company's shareholders. Currently, no customers have avoided our IPs due to the concerns about the war. Thank you.
Basically, Li-Jeng Chen followed up with this with a comment, and my rough translation is she's telling everybody to hire a lawyer if there is a war, because all the pricing abroad will go off the charts. You better go hire a lawyer and collect your money if our foundries and chip design companies do get bombed.
还是有关于这个法令的问题。因为好像蛮多公司被影响，就是美国政府能不能限制公司，特别是那个PUF，因为我们跟DARPA有合作，这个IP如果要做美国政府的生意，上次也有人问这个问题，就不能授权给中国的公司。还有一个，公司的专利权保护为何？因为我们刚刚讲到，这是一个制裁权公司嘛，假设没有人，那这个权利的保护是怎么样？那一般来讲，这个专利权保护大概就20年，那我们NeoBit已经20年了，那是不是20年之后你还能收权利金？那别家公司会不会因为这个专利权到期，然后就不需要授权，那就直接使用。那请Michael回答。
我想刚刚也有解释过，因为我们的技术都是原生的技术，所以没有任何一个政府能够限制。那技术专利权的保护期是20年，但是我们每隔一段时间就会做一些改版来延长专利的年限。譬如说NeoBit，我们是2001年拿到的，那我们在2014年有做一些改版，那它的专利权就可以继续延长到2034年，所以我们到现在还持续可以收到NeoBit相关的权利金。那另外来讲，加上电路设计而形成的一个完整IP，这个部分有50年的著作权保护，而我们授权给晶圆代工厂的权利金支付合约，这个是没有终止日的。好，谢谢。
This question is also on the U.S. government, and it's a little bit long. Basically, the question asks: Can the U.S. government restrict our security related IPs from being licensed to Chinese companies? Okay, we answered this before, but there's a follow-up. What is the company's patent protection philosophy? In addition, patent protection typically lasts 20 years. Can NeoBit continue to receive royalties since its technology is 20 years old? And can other companies use NeoBit's technology without the company's authorization because the patent rights have expired?
Technology is the genetic invention, and there are no government restrictions. The technology patent is for 20 years. We improve the version periodically to extend the patent period. For example, NeoBit's patent was extended to 2034 in 2014. In addition, the complete IP including the circuit design have 50 years of copyright protection. The royalty payment contracts we licensed to foundries have no termination date. Thank you.
大家想到 eMemory，都想到 DDI 跟 PMIC。我们不是 DDI 跟 PMIC，DDI 跟 PMIC 要用的技术才能做，但我们有——我们的应用又非常多，那一个一个再上来，OK。那为什么这个 DDI 跟 PMIC 一定要用到我们技术？即使他们亏钱，还是要付权利金。doesn't matter，OK。那其他 application 到现在还没有用，其实越来越多用，OK，那他们现在用什么？请 Michael 回答。
因为 DDI 跟 PMIC 是属于一种 analog 的线路设计，那因为代工厂的生产制程会有些许的变化，那这些 DDI 跟 PMIC 的客户为了要精准地控制这个输出的讯号，以及符合规格的要求，这时候就会需要我们的 OTP 或 MTP 的 IP 来做这些像输出的一个校正、功能设定、测试后的一个参数储存，以及像是一些程式码的更新等等的功能。那在这个部分来讲，DDI 跟 PMIC 设计上，OTP、MTP 基本上已经算是一个标配了。那随着类比线路设计所需要的容量，跟这个读写次数的越来越高，这个传统的 eFuse 已经不够使用了。那像如果储存的是像密码的话，那 eFuse 会被反向工程而被骇客。那越来越多的应用已经慢慢导向我们的技术，那这是一个很明显的一个趋势。谢谢。
This next question is regarding DDI and PMIC, so we want to clarify that we're not a DDI or PMIC company, but we're required for DDI and PMIC. The question asks: Why has eMemory's technology become a standard for DDI and PMIC but not for other applications? And the follow-up is: What is the alternative for other applications?
DDI and the PMIC are analog circuit designs. Because there are variations in their production process of fab. To control the output signal accurately and meet the spec, they need our OTP or MTP IP to perform output tuning, function setting, post-testing, parameter storage, and the code update. These are already a standard in DDI and PMIC designs. We expect more analog and mixed signal application to follow. Thank you.
专利权它是都有人发明嘛，所以说专利权这个到底是发明人持有还是公司持有？那专利发明人他如果离开公司，像在场的这个杨金松，OK，那杨金松如果跑到别人公司，那他是不是可以再去偷用我们的东西？那请 Michael 回答。
也是。我想我们是一个IP公司，所以专利一定是最重要的。那轻松从公司设立起来，就一直在帮我们公司创造发明，所以这是非常重要，我们一直要，一定要，一定要想办法把它留住。那所有的专利权都是公司持有的，那专利的发明人如果离开到其他公司，是不能使用其在公司的一个发明的专利。好，谢谢。
The question was, is the patent right held by the inventor or the company, eMemory? Can the patent inventor use their invention if they leave eMemory?
Held by the company and the inventor cannot use the patent if they leave. Thank you.
接下来大家应该都要注意，也是会很关心的，就是应收账款，因为经济下去嘛，库存一堆。那请问一下我们有没有这个应收账款的问题？那这个中国客户会不会收不到钱？
好，那我想这是很重要的问题。那我自己因为在公司成立以来就待在这里，所以我很清楚。那我们公司从成立以来到目前只唯一出现过一次，在初期的时候有一笔小额的收款没有收到，那这个就是一个在中国的公司，那后来那个公司倒掉了。那对于大部分的中国客户，我们都是采取一个预付的、预先付款的一个条件，那所以我们比较不会有这样的一个问题。那另外来讲，我们在中国的主要营收都是来自于晶圆代工厂，所以这个部分的风险的话就会很低。谢谢。
This question is actually really important, and it has to do with accounts receivable. The person asked, "Does the company have any issues with accounts receivable? And are Chinese customers not receiving their money?" Michael.
We have no account receivable problems. Since the company was established, we have only had one small collection problem in the early days. For most of our Chinese customers, we take the prepayment. Thank you.
OTP 的真正对手是晶圆代工厂 offer 的 eFuse，所以基本上已经是半退出状态。刚刚讲说不用，我们就是用 eFuse，我是去取代它，我们讲了很多次。先进制程的 eFuse，这个问题他应该是问晶圆厂的，他说先进制程的 eFuse 虽然它有烧断误判的缺点，但是晶圆厂它会提供几十万次的可靠度测试，但是 eFuse 出事常常都是放到系统上不见的，所以可靠度测试是没有用的。那如果说客户不需要测试到那样的次数，那这一题没关系，那 Michael 你回答，我们怎么样说服客户使用这个 NeoPUF？
代工厂要推出eFuse，他一定要经过一些可靠度的测验。那但是可靠度并不是只是其中的一个考量，并不是全部的考量。那对于UID跟这个Key来讲，它是代表一个晶片的身份，那这个东西是不能被篡改、被复制或者是盗取的，那生产的过程中都需要一个严格的管控。如果使用eFuse来存Key或者是UID的话，你就需要从外部去写入密钥，或者是这个随机数。那每个晶片的eFuse一开始的时候都是空的，资料要从外面去写进去，那这样的做法就会让攻击者有这种伪造或篡改的一个机会。那使用NeoPUF来产生Key或UID的话，这个部分就是从晶片自己本身的PUF来产生的，无法从外面写入。所以这两个做法的这个安全性是完全不一样的。除了自己生产UID跟Key之外，外部也没法干扰。那我们的PUFrt跟Secure OTP都包含了一个像physical跟electrical抗攻击的一些设计，那这些也都通过像Riscure的一个认证，可以进一步防止非法的读取跟干扰破坏。谢谢。
This regarding eFuse. I think the person's asking this because our OTP is a competitor of eFuse. The question is, although advanced process eFuse has the drawback of burning error, foundry can still provide hundreds of thousands of reliability tests. If customers do not need to test to that number, how can we convince our customers to use our NeoPUF?
Is not the only consideration. UID and the key ensure the chip identity cannot be tampered with, copied, or stolen. The process of generating it needs to be strictly controlled. To use eFuse for key storage or UID, you must first write in the key or obtain a random number from outside. The eFuse of each chip is empty at the beginning, and the data is written externally, which give attacker opportunity to manipulate information. Using NeoPUF to generate key or UID is from the chip on PUF and cannot be written externally. The security of these two methods are different. In addition to generating the UID and the key, which cannot be interfered with externally, our PUFrt and Secure OTP both contain a physical and electrical anti-tampering design certified by Riscure, which can further prevent attacks. Thank you.
是的，因为大家好像还是很担心这个美国禁令这件事，因为我们都讲我们是用在AI、SOC、FPGA、DPU，这HPC看起来都蛮敏感的，相关的CPU，尤其是我们未来的这个安全应用，什么机密运算。那怎么样去因应美国的禁令？还有一个，这个我同事问我的时候，我还不知道那是什么意思，叫KYC。那我跟我们，问我们董事长，我们董事长也不知道什么叫KYC。OK，你就知道，我们不知，我个这个真的是跟我们无关。那我去问一下什么叫KYC，就是know your customer。那我们有没有这部分要怎么处理？请Michael回答。
强调一下，就是我们并没有受这个美国法令的影响，所以我们不需要提供这个KYC，也就是know your customer的这个资料。那目前来讲，我们也没有中国这一类的客户导入，我们目前在像FPGA、DPU、HPC都是以欧美日这三个国家为主的一个客户。好，谢谢。
There is another question regarding the U.S. restrictions, and it's asking NeoPUF has many applications in AI SoC, FPGA, DPU, and HPC related CPUs. How do you deal with the U.S. restrictions and how does KYC deal with it? KYC stands for know your customers.
Affected by the U.S. requirements and don't need to provide KYC information. Our customers are mainly from Europe, U.S., and Japan. Thank you.
In the interest of time, we will now enter the last question.
因为那个还有一些问题没有回答，但是那些问题其实都在刚刚的问题里面，或是我们法说都讲过了。授权会比较少，这个是这样。调高权利金，因为每个客户不一样，所以这个不大能在这里讲，就是调高，就是本来是钱不收嘛，后面收，大概就是这一类的，OK。那这一题我觉得就是一个很好的问题，其实这个是一个法说要留到最后，就是这一次八寸的产能利用率下降，这不用我说，大家都很清楚，OK，它是不是结构性的？OK。那因为很多中国的晶圆厂是用十二寸来生产八寸的产品，哦，那这到底，因为很多人想到我就是八寸，我们就说我们八寸有20%的渗透率嘛，那对公司到底的影响怎样？当然我可以说用十二寸补嘛，OK。那这一题我想请Michael再来解释一下，嘿。
那所谓用十二寸来生产八寸的产品，这应该是指说，有他们用十二寸的晶圆厂来生产像八寸制程的一些部分，像是点一八 micron 或点一一 micron 这个地方，那这个情况一直都有。那只是说目前主要还是以中国盖的这个新的厂为主。那对公司而言的话，这个并没有什么影响。那因为八寸产能的松动，我们向这个晶圆代工厂在推广我们的 NeoFlash 的技术，那因为 NeoFlash 并不需要额外增购设备，那相对于这些传统的 SST 的 embedded flash 这些部分，那他们需要买额外的机台设备，而且整个授权金额非常高。那加上我们的这个新的授权的一个策略，我们减低前面的 upfront，但是调高后面的权利金，那这个部分可以帮客户带来一个加值跟加价的作用，那这个对晶圆厂来讲会是非常有吸引力的。
我补充一下，就是说我们授权给晶圆代工厂，不是只有我们给他我们的东西，他其实要花 resource，要花人，去做测试晶片，就跟一般生产晶片一样，要做很多的事情。那这一次的景气，工厂的产能松对我们来说是一个极大的好的机会，因为他有人了，大部分都不想 fire 人嘛，厂是空着，你怎么办？那你如果这时候你跟他说，我要收你钱，你现在收他钱到贡献，那可能是 N 年后。但你跟他说，你要做 R&D，我帮你做 R&D，我跟你一起做。等到成功的时候，因为最主要就是说我们的技术，力旺的技术叫 Logic NVM，就是说我不加光罩，不改制程，我不增加机器设备，就是要花 effort，不是我的 effort，晶圆厂也要提供 effort。所以在这里为什么会采这样的策略？这是一个正好，就这几年来难得有厂，尤其是八寸空下来，而且是这么的空，所以我们才会采取这个事情，就是大幅...
那这样子就很popular，所以我们广建这个平台。那等到下次景气一定会回来嘛，那库存自然就会填，那你下来的你的动能就不会只有security，就像我们上次的这个2019年，再大，再扩充PUF，所以这一次就有PUF，下次进来你就会多一个技术，MTP一定take off了。所以是，这个就是说我们不收前面，我们增加后面，然后跟客户来讲，他花资源，他晶圆价可以加价，那八寸在降价嘛，你跟他说，欸，你这个Flash就是说你把一个外挂的东西沉进去，两颗变一颗，你加了很多值，加了非常多的value，我跟你一起合作，那你就可以调高你的这个wafer价，因为我有fab嘛，所以就分我多一点。这个就是最典型的，我们一般跟客户合作里面才学叫win-win solution。这个我稍微解释一下，这个我是极度的赞成，因为这个是一个对的方法。对，就是跟客户一起共提时间，但是不是只有共提时间，而是怎么样去帮这个技术加值。所以这个现在就是非常非常popular。那我们认为下一个cycle呢，这个一定会有一个MTP贡献，就是权利金，大概这样子。
The last question is, the decline in 8-in capacity utilization a result of Chinese foundries using 12-in to produce 8-in products? What is the impact on eMemory?
She mainly refers to the use of 12-in fabs to produce 8-in process like a 0.18 and 0.11 micron process. This has been happening for quite a long time, especially in new fabs built in China. This has no impact to us. We are promoting our NeoFlash technology to the foundries because NeoFlash does not require additional equipment compared to the traditional embedded flash, which will require purchasing additional equipment. Our strategy of waiving technology license and raising the production royalty is very attractive to fab customers as they can add value and increase wafer price by adopting our technology. Thank you.
Looks like our time is up. Now we will begin a closing comment. Michael, please proceed.
Information about PUF-based Security IPs. We encourage you to visit our PUF security website at www.pufsecurity.com and check out our article and other materials. Thank you once again for your patience and the support for eMemory. We will continue to work hard on IP innovation and the security solution for our customers and bring higher returns for our shareholders. Thank you.
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Before we conclude today's conference, please be advised that the recording of the conference will be accessible within the next three hours. Thank you everyone for joining us today. We hope you will join us again next quarter. You may now disconnect. Goodbye and have a good day.