Of Investor Relations. If you'd like to get a copy of today's presentation, simply email me at glen@bristolir.com, and I'll be happy to send you a copy. We'll break for questions at the end of the formal presentation. When we do break, we encourage those questions. Just as a reminder, we're only taking questions through the web portal. If you're listening over the telephone, please access the web link that we would have sent earlier today to ask that question. Remember, you could submit a question using the text box within the webinar portal at any time. I'll ask the questions on the air for everyone to hear, and then Raj or John will answer. I'm not going to reference any names, but simply read the questions asked.
And as we have a very large audience today, if I can't get to your question online and has not yet been addressed on the call and can be, I'll come back to you by email. I'm not going to read the forward-looking statements, but I do state that they apply, and I reference them on page two of this presentation. And with that said, once again, thank you for joining us. Remember, this is fairly informal, and we do encourage questions to help you better understand the business and its growth path. And now I'll turn the call over to Raj to start his part of the discussion and presentation.
Hi, Glen. Thanks so much for the great introduction, and pleasure to be here with all of you this afternoon, so I'm here to talk today about Electrovaya, give everyone an overview of the company, what exciting technologies we have, and how we're applying this to the markets we've targeted. We'll also talk a little bit further about our plans in Jamestown, New York, and our exciting directions that the company is taking in the near and long term, so the starting photo here is of our Jamestown building in Western New York, and we'll, of course, come to that in more detail shortly. As Glen mentioned, we will be discussing forward-looking statements, and we'd, of course, appreciate it if everyone took note. Now, just taking a step back, what is Electrovaya all about?
Electrovaya is a lithium-ion battery technology and manufacturing company, and we are very much focused on leveraging two key technology differentiations we have. One of them is with respect to battery safety. Battery safety, of course, many of you have read terrible articles about lithium-ion batteries catching fire. Safety is a key aspect of lithium-ion batteries, which needs to be dealt with. Electrovaya has proprietary ceramic separator technology, which greatly enhances the battery safety. To date, this technology has been deployed in about 30,000 battery systems. We have a perfect safety record. Furthermore, the technology has demonstrated safety beyond what typical lithium-ion batteries do. For instance, our battery systems pass UL 2580 certification, which is a UL electric vehicle designation that very few battery companies have been able to achieve.
We believe we're going to be the first battery company to achieve this for high-voltage battery systems. And this testing requires everything from fire propagation testing to very, very strenuous mechanical testing. So that's on the safety side. We believe that gives us a strong differentiation over our competition. The second is on longevity. And what we mean by longevity is the number of cycles the battery can do before it reaches its end of life. And, of course, many of you are probably familiar with your phones, your phone battery. Once it reaches about 80% of its initial capacity, it starts to die off very quickly. And so 80% is typically what in the industry is used as end-of-life in a battery. And typical batteries used in consumer electronics like phones will do maybe 1,000 cycles.
In electric vehicles, passenger electric vehicles, a bit longer, maybe 2,000, and sometimes a little bit further. But Electrovaya's battery technology, which is agnostic to the chemistry, can take a standard NMC chemistry, and we do 10,000-plus cycles on our lithium-ion battery cells. So when you take a look at these two key differentiations, safety and longevity, it makes Electrovaya very, very applicable to a broad range of applications, but especially mission-critical and heavy-duty applications. These are applications which often will need a higher level of safety and longevity due to the heavy use of the application. The first target market we went after was in material handling. Why was this market something that we picked? Well, material handling, especially this time of year, vehicles, whether they be forklifts or robots, they're operating 24/7 in many, many large companies' distribution centers.
They need batteries to keep up with that operation. Basically, they need that performance to be unchanged no matter how many charges that battery takes, nor how quickly those charges get made. They need a very, very good battery with exceptional longevity, which we do provide. The second key aspect what they're looking for is these vehicles are operating indoors. They're getting charged rapidly and extensively. Safety is paramount. That's also, of course, something that we can provide. We went after this market several years back. It's blossomed quite nicely. Today, we're powering over 14 Fortune 100 customers, including some of the largest names in the world, which you'd be very familiar with, and also now in over 200 warehouses. We're getting into additional markets right now. We're targeting everything from aerospace and defense to certain commercial vehicles, including construction and mining.
And then finally, on domestic manufacturing, this is something that we're very excited about. We recently announced an approved loan from the U.S. Export-Import Bank of $51 million, which will really take care of the funding of all the engineering and construction for our Jamestown facility. So that's going to provide domestic manufacturing, likely lead to improved margins, and also, probably most importantly, of course, expanded capacity. And we also believe it's going to attract additional business. On the financial front, we believe we're about to complete six quarters of positive EBITDA. Company has most definitely passed a key inflection point. Our margins are probably one of the highest for lithium-ion batteries. And we're on path to grow very nicely into fiscal 2025 with growing revenue and headed to that good profitability. Basically, our break-even point is approximately on an EPS level, not on a cash flow basis.
On a cash flow basis, it's less. But on an EPS level, about $50 million per annum, and we will exceed that in fiscal 2025. So in terms of customers and partners, we have a great, great roster. And in terms of strategic partnerships, we work very closely with the Toyota Material Handling Group, including groups like Raymond and Bastian Solutions. And we have a battery system which is distributed by Raymond under the Energy Essentials brand there. And it's been deployed in countless warehouses across the country and overseas. More recently, we partnered with Sumitomo Corporation, one of the leading Japanese trading houses. And they have been actively marketing our technology and our solutions to other Japanese OEMs and other potential partners across the world. So we're in a very good position with these strong partnerships.
In terms of who's using our batteries, it's the who's who of the Fortune 500. Some of the largest companies in the world. The largest end user of our products is an e-commerce company. Other major users, of course, are Target, Walmart, Mars, etc. So a very diversified group of customers. And they generally are picking Electrovaya's technology over competition, which may be cheaper, but our solution provides a lower cost of ownership and much better safety. So companies, when they're looking for the best battery solution, they're picking us. That also applies to the defense sector, where they're specifically looking for the best technology possible. And there we're seeing good traction as well, recently seeing some growth and repeat orders from our first defense contractor customer. These batteries have been proven and are deployed in many, many commercial operations, well over 200 warehouses.
The Infinity battery technology has been well understood to have the properties that we talk about: longevity, safety. Some of those first systems that were deployed at Walmart in 2018, we've watched those systems. The degradation on those batteries is under 5% after extensive use, and they're outlasting the vehicles that they were initially deployed in. In terms of the market we're looking at, Electrovaya is looking at these heavy-duty mission-critical markets, which are large. They're not necessarily as large as the passenger electric vehicle market, but that's a market where margins will be very, very tight. It's a market Electrovaya used to participate in. With our focus on leveraging this technology and gaining the maximum profitability levels, these markets make the most sense.
So defense, material handling, mining, and construction, these are the types of markets we see ourselves being highly differentiated and, as a result, can charge a premium for our solution. So where do we ultimately want to get to is Electrovaya. We believe we have the technology which is ideal for heavy-duty applications. That includes trucks, buses, construction, mining, etc. Up till now, many companies that have deployed electric vehicles for these larger types of vehicles have run into trouble. And a lot of that stems from the use of automotive-grade lithium-ion batteries for these larger applications. And it doesn't really work that well. Automotive batteries are designed for electric vehicles, and their number one priority is to reduce the dollar per kilowatt-hour level for the solution, to lower the costs for the battery packs in passenger EVs, which are highly sensitive to price.
In commercial vehicles or heavy-duty vehicles, the life cycle really becomes the more important item rather than the upfront cost. And the second is safety. When you're scaling battery systems to being very large, the probability of a safety event becomes higher, and you need the safest lithium-ion battery solution you can get. If you look in the media, you'll see many examples of larger electric vehicles running into trouble, especially with regards to safety. And this is something we believe our technology definitely takes care of. Fires and lithium-ion batteries often get into the news. Some pieces of this we'd like you to pay special attention to. And one key item is lithium-ion battery fires that propagate.
So they may start in a single cell, but what ends up happening is that single cell leads to the neighboring cell to catch fire in the neighboring cell, and it just keeps going. And sometimes it even goes beyond that one battery pack. A neighboring battery pack or even a neighboring electric vehicle might catch fire. And that's precisely what's happened in one of those photos there, where it appears one battery pack. It probably started in one battery pack, and then a fire quickly propagated in many, many vehicles. Why does this happen? Well, lithium-ion batteries have a separator. That's one of the core components of a lithium-ion battery. And its job is to do exactly what its name says. Its job is to separate the positive and the negative electrode in a lithium-ion battery and also allow the lithium ions to go through it.
Those separators are generally made of plastics, and they work fine until they get too hot, and if they get too hot, separators will shrink, and you'll have a short circuit, which leads to a fire, and then the neighboring cell gets too hot, its separators shrink, it catches fire, and so forth, so that's often why battery fires are referred to as thermal runaway. In Electrovaya's case, we have a proprietary ceramic separator, and that ceramic separator is stable at much higher temperatures. What this means is it makes the probability of, first of all, that cell catching on fire to be lower, but then the probability of, even if you manage to get that cell to catch fire, the probability of the neighboring cell to catch fire is significantly reduced over conventional technologies, and we've seen this in practice.
The picture there on the bottom left is an actual battery system that we've produced, about 70 kWh in capacity. And that battery, we physically set a cell in that pack on fire on purpose. And the end result, and this is a fully charged battery system, fully built. And the end result of setting that cell on fire is that fire remained at that one point. It didn't propagate in the battery system at all. This test was repeated, of course, at our lab, but also at our key OEM partners, third-party lab, and then at UL's lab more recently. So this is a clear indication of the technology and how it works in practice in a battery system. On the cycle life, again, this is third-party data on the left there, 10,000-plus cycles with very little degradation. What does this mean?
This means if you did one charge/discharge cycle a day, you're looking at a 30-plus year life on a battery system, or if you put our batteries in a typical electric car, you're looking at over three million miles on that car. This is a technology maybe overkill for passenger EVs, but ideal for vehicles which never stop, i.e., robots, forklifts, perhaps even taxis in the future. Now, when you have a battery that doesn't die, we really want to see how we can leverage that performance further, and that looks at we're looking at recurring revenue models, one of which is leasing. We recently, in October, in partnership with one of our OEM partners, have presented customers with a high residual value leasing opportunity. That seems to be gathering tremendous interest. Normally, only the very largest and most well-funded companies have been purchasing our batteries.
That's due to their ability to calculate the life cycle cost. But when those medium-sized corporations or large corporations with less funding, perhaps, they can get that advantage from day one through leasing with a high residual value. So that's a very exciting program. Another is starting to higher levels of batteries which are rented. We're already renting batteries today to that e-commerce company, and we're starting to scale that up slowly. But again, margins on those types of opportunities are very, very good. Another example is demand response capabilities. This is something that we're planning to deploy in early 2025. What this does is it optimizes the electricity consumption of our batteries in a warehouse, which can be a substantial load in a building. And the idea here is we would share in the savings that the utility provides.
In terms of our global reach, of course, we have operations in Canada and now in the U.S. We have growing sales in Japan. We'll be shipping our first battery systems to a Japanese construction vehicle OEM early in the new year, and we're seeing a lot more interest in that region and elsewhere in the Asia-Pacific region, so likely, we'll also establish something in Japan in the near future. Jumping to our Jamestown operation a bit further here, this is what we're extremely excited about, and this, first of all, will give us a made-in-U.S. domestic battery and leveraging a lot of the domestic supply chain and friendly country supply chains. This is a funded plant now with $50.8 million from the U.S. Export-Import Bank under their Make More in America initiative, and essentially, they're covering all the equipment and the construction at that site.
Also important is the low electricity price that we have negotiated with the New York Power Authority. It's under $0.05 a kilowatt-hour delivered and 100% renewable. What this facility is going to provide us is it's going to give us, first of all, that domestic production, which is going to be very important, especially with geopolitical tensions rising, a much shorter lead time for production, and expanded capacity to grow. That vertical integration is also going to have an impact on the bottom line. We expect our margins to increase. And then finally, we also are. This may, of course, change, but we're expecting to get production tax credits from output, which will further increase the profitability of output from this facility.
In terms of funding, I already mentioned EXIM, but there's also over $7 million worth of grants and tax credits from the state and county in New York. So that's our Infinity battery technology. I just wanted to briefly mention our solid-state battery efforts. Solid-state batteries are a next-generation lithium-ion battery technology, which Electrovaya and a number of other companies are also working towards this goal. This technology would essentially make a battery separator also act as an electrolyte in a lithium-ion battery, thereby reducing a lot of those liquids that are used and also eliminating the use of graphite as an electrode. The outcome of this is much higher energy densities, which, of course, are very exciting because that could double the runtime of your phone or it could double the range of your electric vehicle.
Still in the development stage, but why does Electrovaya think we'll be successful with this? Well, fundamentally, it comes down to that know-how and capability of making ceramic separators. Electrovaya, as you've seen in our Infinity technology, we know a thing or two about not only producing ceramic separators, having IP around ceramic separators, but also the incorporation of that type of technology and making commercially viable cells. And that's precisely what we're trying to repeat with the solid-state battery. Here, we're looking at a ceramic material which we've developed in-house with proprietary recipe and performance, which will be an ionic conductor. And we're also making that into a separator. So far, this is at a small cell level, but results are promising, and we'll continue to provide updates as we progress.
With that, I'll hand it over to John to talk a little bit further about some of the financials.
Thanks, Raj. So as Raj mentioned at the top of the presentation, we've seen some significant growth over the past few years. We've gone from $16 million in fiscal 2022 to $44 million in fiscal 2023. And we recently announced that our audited revenue for 2024 is also about $45 million. When we started fiscal 2024, we expected to reach the $65 million-$70 million revenue range, which would have put us significantly above our break-even. Unfortunately, we had some customer orders that were pushed out.
But what that really allowed us to do was use fiscal 2024 as a sort of proving ground to increase our operational efficiency, make sure that we're doing the best that we can to save where we're able to, to increase margins and improve the output as well. So we continue to have strong margins for the whole of fiscal 2024. We will be releasing our financials over the next couple of weeks, and we'll be making the relevant comments through the MD&A. So please keep your eyes peeled for those. On the balance sheet, these numbers are obviously as of the quarter ending June. Essentially, what we have here is mostly inventory and some fixed assets there, which would be the building in Jamestown.
The main items on the liability side are our revolving facility, which carries a high coupon, but we're working to renegotiate that down to save us some cash on the interest side.
One thing to note, of course, is Electrovaya has, of course, run a skinny balance sheet for some time, but we've done so keeping a close eye on the bottom line. Over the last several quarters, John, I think we've been essentially in a cash flow. We've been generating cash from operations.
Yes.
So we expect this to only improve as time goes on. And of course, we're very pleased to see the funding from EXIM and others supporting a lot of the capital outlay we have planned going forward. So on the debt side, because EXIM is there, we are anticipating bringing in a tier one bank to take over from our current lender. That, of course, requires intercreditors, etc. So that's being worked out. We're expecting, of course, to move forward with that as well. And Glenn, with that, I'm going to stop sharing, and we'll take questions.
Perfect. Thank you. Lots of questions already in the queue. And remember to our audience, if you do have a question, please use the question text box within the portal. Don't use the raise your hand feature because we can't access that. So first question for you is just a little bit more color on the competitive environment, both, I guess, in other battery technology companies, other, I guess, options like the, I guess, there was a question regarding, I believe, using fuel cells, and are you displacing fuel cells? And then are there other companies that are using similar type ceramics?
First of all, I'll start with the last one. On the ceramic separator, Electrovaya is not the only company that's ever come up with a ceramic separator. However, I would say we're the only company that has commercialized the use of that type of technology. And I would say we know a lot about it, and we've perfected that type of technology to a great deal. And clearly, it's been deployed in growing numbers. In terms of the competitive landscape, overall, I would say this battery industry as a whole is dominated by Asian battery manufacturers. And recently, we've seen what happens when you just try to fund a battery company with lots of money and to make exactly the same thing that's being made in China. And that doesn't really work.
So you need a highly differentiated technology in order to compete. And Electrovaya has been nimble and has clearly focused on leveraging technology advantages, which we've done with our Infinity technology, and going after markets where we see ourselves having the best ability to leverage that. And that's the type of strategy we wish to continue. And we see plenty of opportunity to do well at that.
Okay. And I guess there was another question that I combined with it, which is, I guess, some customers were using fuel cells.
On fuel cells, I would say fuel cells. Some of our customers use both fuel cells and batteries to power equipment. Don't want to say anything against those decisions, but fuel cells require very specialized infrastructure, which can only be deployed. It requires a whole hydrogen infrastructure to go along with it. With batteries, you have an electrical infrastructure, which is generally present everywhere. The advantage of fuel cells initially was the ability to replenish quickly through fueling. But our batteries, because the cycle life is so good, they can take a very fast charge without losing performance. And we believe that mitigates things. And as time goes on, what we believe is fuel cells may depend on subsidies more. Our customers, for instance, not one of them is getting a subsidy to purchase our battery solutions.
Really, that focus on the core advantage of the technology rather than looking at markets which are requiring subsidies gives us a lot of immunity to changes in government policy, which we fully expect to happen over the next four years.
Great. Super. Thank you. I've got probably six or seven questions here related to Jamestown. So I'm going to try to combine them all into one or two and have you address it. So first, can you just go over what the Jamestown facility means for the company in terms of capacity? And is this facility dedicated to a specific vertical such as defense, mining, or construction? And then I guess finally, is the timelines involved in going from getting the funding to getting to full capacity?
The Jamestown facility is ultimately going to be about expansion. We already, of course, make lithium-ion cells and battery systems with our current supply chain. What Jamestown will do is do everything that's currently being done in China and some of what's being done in Japan and some of what's being done in Canada. It'll be a fully vertically integrated facility that makes everything from cells to modules and battery systems. Some of those modules will be shipped to our Canadian facility, and some of them will be built into full systems in the Jamestown facility. In terms of what the capacity means, it probably gives us an extra $200 million per annum capability in its first phase. The interesting thing about that site, though, is we have 52 acres.
We've already looked into how that facility can be expanded further if we need to do so, and it can be done quite easily.
Okay. Super. I guess in line with some of those markets that you just mentioned where you source supplies, what is the company doing to protect against supply chain disruptions, shortages that might arise from geopolitics?
The last four years have had substantial disruptions in supply chains. I guess that's taught us a thing or two of what to do to handle things going forward. One thing that we're doing in Jamestown, for instance, is the sourcing of materials really from countries like Korea, the U.S., Canada, and Japan primarily. We're trying to essentially give ourselves immunity from anything that happens with China. That's something that we've been focused on. We've already been qualifying those materials over the last nine months or so. We believe when the facility starts operations for cell manufacturing, which would be in the first half of 2026, we'll be able to be shipping commercial product for cells around that time. Battery systems will happen much earlier. It'll happen in 2025. That'll be augmenting what we have in our Canadian facilities.
Super. Thank you. Some technical questions for you. What is the company's strategy to move to silicon carbon anodes, given their higher energy density and premium they can command in the market? What would you expect energy density improvements without compromising discharge rates and life cycle?
So with regards to silicon, there are good companies working on that. We have considered it. And however, we believe our solid-state battery development is what we're going after, which is even higher energy densities. There, we're targeting about 350-400 Wh per kilogram.
Okay. What is the average selling price per watt-hour for cells themselves and the corresponding cost of manufacturing, or are you selling only modules/systems?
We won't disclose our selling price. However, we've sold cells to defense contractors. We've sold battery modules. For instance, the construction vehicle OEM, that'll be battery modules. However, as of today, most of our sales are in battery systems. And of course, that's in the material handling market. Overall, Electrovaya most definitely charges a premium for our battery solutions, which is why our margins are about over 30% on battery solutions.
Okay. You mentioned a bunch of market verticals. We have a question here whether data centers are a vertical for you and whether you could use your technology as a primary power source for the data centers?
Data centers, so energy storage systems, stationary energy storage systems, for the most part, has been a market we've shied away from because its core focus has been on capital costs of the battery solution, especially dollar per kilowatt-hour comparisons, which we don't want to get into. We want the life cycle benefit and the safety benefit. Now, data centers are different because the safety benefit really comes into play there. We have already been requested by some of our existing customers in the material handling space to potentially provide energy storage solutions for backup power in sites like data centers or distribution centers. And that's a product we are currently developing. We expect to launch it in mid-2025. But its focus will be specifically on that high-end part of the market, which is focused on providing better safety and better longevity for their sites.
But energy storage doesn't generate electricity. You, of course, have to get another source to generate. This is about storing and backup power.
Thank you. You're obviously currently manufacturing, I would assume, in your Mississauga plant. Can you talk about that facility and what that facility capacity is presently without the Jamestown expansion?
Yeah. So we have two facilities here in Ontario. The one where John and I are speaking to you from, this is our battery; it's really a battery development center to some degree. We have our engineering staff. Engineering staff is about 50% of our overall staff, where we're developing battery systems, BMS technology, etc. We're also assembling finished battery systems here. And the capacity of that is about $130 million per annum. So right now, we're not at capacity. We're expecting to ramp up production in January to meet growing demand. But we still anticipate having spare capacity to make battery systems. In the long run, the Mississauga facility's focus will be continuing, of course, the engineering development and also battery systems. But that battery systems will be pretty much dedicated for material handling products.
Other battery system products for other markets will really come out of the Jamestown facility, and then the second facility we have in Ontario is really dedicated to R&D for solid-state batteries.
Okay. Thank you. I know you addressed this issue in your formal remarks and part of a previous question, but I think this is a pretty specific question that requires a little bit more specific response. How is Electrovaya addressing the challenges of sourcing and securing critical minerals for its battery manufacturing processes? And what strategies or partnerships has the company implemented to ensure a stable and ethical supply chain? And then there's a follow-up question to that.
We have qualified multiple vendors for cathode anode materials, both for our existing production and upcoming production in Jamestown. We have assurances for a stable supply chain of those materials. We also, of course, ensure that they're ethically sourced, and we ensure we check those provisions from our suppliers.
Okay. Thank you. Can you talk more about the IP protection you have for your technology within this competitive marketplace?
So of course, Electrovaya has quite a number of patents just on the ceramic separator patents. We have over 30 of them. We're filing new patents with regards to solid-state batteries. But a great deal of the IP protection is really in the know-how and the experience and the setup of facilities. You can't put everything in patents or they can get copied. It takes a long time to develop technology in lithium-ion batteries and an even longer time to validate and qualify and get those built in. So we believe we have a pretty solid foundation to sit on that we're continuing to improve on. And we believe we're well protected.
Okay. Thank you. Just going through some of the questions here. Can you please address reasons why a customer would push this out? And then funding, I guess I'll ask this question first, and then we'll get to the other part of it. Could you address the reasons for the customers pushing out of your backlog, I guess, from prior year?
Yeah. So most of our revenue, of course, as everyone is probably aware, is material handling-based. And these are battery systems which go primarily into new forklifts, which are going into new buildings, new distribution centers, which are under construction. And in 2024, there were a number of sites which were pushed into 2025, and those were newly constructed sites. We also had seen a lower amount, basically non-ordered from our largest-end customer. But nonetheless, we managed to improve margins and have pretty much a flat year, but not a decrease, despite all those challenges. What we're seeing going forward is, first of all, those sites are on schedule in 2025 now. But more importantly, we're seeing a bit of momentum building up with regards to refurbishment of existing distribution center sites.
Earlier this week, we announced an order from a current customer who has deployed a large number of our batteries, mostly in newly built distribution centers. They're seeing such a great benefit on those sites. Now they're looking to convert existing warehouses, which, of course, have a much larger footprint, and as we continue, we expect that, well, let's call them brownfield sites, that opportunity is much larger and is going to lead to more considerable growth going forward.
Okay. I guess some sales-related questions. You clearly have significantly upsized your target. I guess John mentioned $60 million plus in guidance that you've given, significant increase from where you are today. Can you just talk about your sales effort and sort of what is driving that increased demand that you could give such higher guidance for 2025?
It's stemming from, first of all, orders in hand, orders communicated, especially some of these examples with regards to companies looking to use our batteries in existing distribution centers. So warehousing is going to be the vast majority of our revenue in fiscal 2025. And we're expecting a very good year. So in terms of our sales efforts, of course, it's working closely with some of these large Fortune 100 companies, of course, working very closely with our OEM partner. The example I gave with regards to the higher leasing residual value effort, which has just started in late October, we're seeing already just a few weeks into that great results. So all these factors are coming together to give us a pretty good feeling for fiscal 2025.
Thank you. And I guess on the sales itself, is there a recurring revenue component to your business? And if so, can you talk about it and just, I guess, explain what that could be and how big it could potentially become?
Currently, the recurring revenue is very, very small. It's under 5%. There is one slide in our presentation which describes this, but we're aiming to grow that recurring revenue to about 10% of overall revenue within a few years. That recurring revenue would come from things like rentals, leasing opportunities, and then some service revenue associated with things like demand response, which is a service we're starting to roll out early in 2025. We definitely want to get to a mixture of, of course, sales products and recurring revenue. We believe we're headed that way. We're headed in a good direction.
Okay. Thank you. Do you break out your revenues based on business vertical? And if so, can you address it? If not, obviously not.
Right now, we do not. I would expect us to do that at some point in fiscal 2025, though, because currently, material handling systems are so dominant, there's no point. But as other revenues start becoming more significant, we'll look to do that.
Can you talk a little bit about customer concentration and perhaps what percentage of your revenue your top 10 customers make up?
It depends how you define it, right? If you define it as the OEM partner, of course, it looks like it's all 75% is OEM partner, 15%-25% more or less direct. But it's more complicated than that. Within that OEM partner, the vast majority is through Raymond. And Raymond is selling directly to certain major end customers. There are really five of them who make probably 80% of that. And that includes some of the names I mentioned earlier. What we're seeing, though, is that list, which was, if you look back in fiscal 2022 or even 2023, it was really two, and now it's five. And that's going to get more and more broad as time goes on.
Okay. Super. Thank you. I have a bunch of finance-related type questions, so I'll basically boil it down to two. I know we have a hard stop in a few minutes. So first question is, can you just get into a little bit more detail on your EXIM loan in terms of terms, if you can? And if you can't, obviously understandable. And then maybe in a broader way, just talk about your capital needs. I know your cash flow is positive now, but sort of what your balance sheet looks like and your needs for growth capital in the foreseeable future.
So, I don't know if we will get. We did put a small press release out with some of the terms of EXIM. It's a six-year term, very favorable interest rates. But those details will be provided as we disclose them formally. But overall, EXIM, great partner to work with. I think these are terms you would not get from any other type of financial institution. With regards to our capital needs, I'd say operationally, there are. Really, we're able to feed ourselves through the cash flow. We expect improvements as we change our banking partner. So we're looking to get that done soon. In terms of expansion, growth capital, these are things, yes, potentially require additional capital, and we'll look into that as we need to.
Perfect. I know we've got quite a few more questions in the queue, but I think we addressed most of them, and to our audience, if your specific question was not asked or addressed during the presentation and you want it to be further addressed, just email me with the specific question. I'll make sure I'll get back to you, and then, Raj, John, I'll just ask you for some closing remarks, and we'll stop the call as we have a hard stop here.
No, Glenn, thanks so much for arranging this, and thanks everyone for taking the time to listen to us. I know it's a busy part of the year. Stay tuned for our fiscal 2024 results. Those will be probably earlier than we had initially expected. And of course, we're looking forward. Fiscal 2025 is what we're most excited about. And of course, 2026 beyond that. So thank you, everyone, and happy holidays.
Super. Thanks, guys. Thanks to our audience. And this concludes this webinar.