RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust (TSX:REI.UN)
Canada flag Canada · Delayed Price · Currency is CAD
20.71
+0.08 (0.39%)
Sep 14, 2026, 4:00 PM EST
← View all transcripts

Earnings Call: Q3 2020

Oct 29, 2020

Operator

Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust third quarter 2020 conference call. I would now like to hand the conference call over to Jennifer Suess, Senior Vice President and General Counsel. You may begin.

Jennifer Suess
SVP, General Counsel, and Corporate Secretary, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Thank you, and good morning, everyone. I am Jennifer Suess, Senior Vice President, General Counsel, and Corporate Secretary for RioCan. Before we begin, I would like to draw your attention to the presentation materials that we will refer to in today's call, which were posted together with the MD&A and financials on RioCan's website earlier this morning. Before turning the call over to Jonathan, I am required to read the following cautionary statement. In talking about our financial and operating performance and in responding to your questions, we may make forward-looking statements, including statements concerning RioCan's objectives, its strategies to achieve those objectives, as well as statements with respect to management's beliefs, plans, estimates, and intentions, and similar statements concerning anticipated future events, results, circumstances, performance, or expectations that are not historical facts.

These statements are based on our current estimates and assumptions and are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause our actual results to differ materially from the conclusions in these forward-looking statements. In discussing our financial and operating performance and in responding to your questions, we will also be referencing certain financial measures that are not generally accepted accounting principle measures, GAAP, under IFRS. These measures do not have any standardized definition prescribed by IFRS and are therefore unlikely to be comparable to similar measures presented by other reporting issuers. Non-GAAP measures should not be considered as alternatives to net earnings or comparable metrics determined in accordance with IFRS as indicators of RioCan's performance, liquidity, cash flows, and profitability. RioCan's management uses these measures to aid in assessing the trust's underlying core performance and provides these additional measures so that investors may do the same.

Additional information on the material risks that could impact our actual results and the estimates and assumptions we applied in making these forward-looking statements, together with details on our use of non-GAAP financial measures, can be found in the financial statements for the period ended September 30th, 2020 and management's discussion and analysis related thereto as applicable, together with RioCan's most recent annual information form that are all available on our website and at www.sedar.com.

Jonathan Gitlin
President and COO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Thank you, Jennifer. Thank you to everyone for joining us today. In just a moment, I'm going to provide you with an update on our third quarter operating metrics. Before I do, I just want to express my appreciation. It's an appreciation for the confidence demonstrated by Ed, our Board, and the RioCan team in my ability to take RioCan into a new era as CEO. I'm passionate about this business. The past few months have presented a lot of new challenges, which have really only highlighted the important role that physical spaces are going to play in our lives and the role that RioCan plays as a leader in the Canadian real estate landscape. Now, there's volatility in our industry. That's undeniable. That's what creates openings for true innovation and transformation.

Continuing to help RioCan to achieve our vision in partnership with the best team in the business, that's a great opportunity, and I honestly can't wait to dive in. I want to thank Ed once again because he's a real estate legend, and I'm fortunate that following the transition, I'll continue to benefit from his mentorship, his advisement, and his friendship as he assumes the role of Non-Executive Chairman. Now, we're going to have a seamless phase transition over the next five months, and this is going to ensure a steady continuity of RioCan's business strategy and vision. Ed and I are going to be fully embedded in our new roles by April 1st of 2021.

Let's focus on our earnings and provide some important context on what we're doing in both the immediate and long term to protect and grow this business and why we continue to be confident in spite of the market volatility. I know rent collection is again on top of everyone's mind, let me dive right into it. For the quarter, cash collected and CECRA proceeds collectively represent 93.4% of billed rent. Far in the fourth quarter, the positive trend in rent collection continues, with 91.9% of October's rent collected. Of course, there's no further CECRA assistance built into that number. While we'd clearly prefer to report 100% collection, as we've been able to do during the first 26 years of our operation, we're pleased by the steady upward collection trajectory we've driven since April.

We're also pleased to have upheld our position as a responsible Canadian industry leader throughout this crisis. We've balanced our tenants' needs with the well-being of our unit holders. From the start, we understood the need to provide immediate relief and protect smaller, independent tenants. When CECRA launched, we actively participated on behalf of approximately 1,800 qualifying tenant locations in the second quarter. Although CMHC policy dictated that all tenants that were eligible in the second quarter would automatically be eligible in the third quarter, RioCan established its own more rigorous criteria. In the third quarter, we actively participated on behalf of approximately 950 tenants. Over that six-month CECRA period, RioCan abated approximately CAD 14.2 million in gross rents. In exchange for our participation, RioCan and the industry, well, we're going to benefit from the long-term survival and sustainability of these businesses.

We view our participation as both good business practice and the right thing to do. CECRA officially expired at the end of the third quarter. The federal government has since unveiled its new commercial rent relief program. It's called the Canada Emergency Rent Subsidy Program, or the unfortunate acronym of CERS. We're still awaiting more details regarding this program, but what we do know is that it will provide direct support on a sliding scale for businesses that have seen a revenue drop. The good news is that it will operate independent of landlord contribution or administration. We view CERS as a positive initiative. It's going to provide much-needed short-term relief for a lot of very good businesses. Relief programs such as CECRA and CERS are valuable. However, the industry is still facing the most challenging conditions in our history.

The bottom line is the same as I discussed last quarter. Every dollar matters to us. We're using our resources, our energy, and a thoughtful strategic approach to maximize rent collection. To the extent we need to make concessions, we continue to negotiate lease amendments with tenants that will benefit the trust over the long term. We're keenly focused on the health of retail and the impact of closures on RioCan. There have been a lot of CCAA filings since March. As I'm sure you're aware, CCAA filings allow companies to restructure. It doesn't necessarily mean that the locations will close. Often the restructured businesses emerge leaner and more resilient. It's important to note the relative impact of these filings on RioCan.

Of all the retailers that have filed for CCAA protection, confirmed closures represent only 0.9% of RioCan's total revenue, and most are predictably from the apparel sector. I'm not downplaying the very real struggles within the industry, but I do want to emphasize that to date, the relative impact on RioCan's revenue is far less than what one might believe in light of the ongoing negative retail narrative. RioCan is aided by the stability and diversity of our rental revenue. Let me explain. 78% of RioCan's rental revenue is derived from tenants that we deem to be either strong or stable, even in this current environment. We collected 96.7% of the rent from these tenants in the third quarter. These categories are comprised primarily of grocery, pharmacy, liquor, essential services, and value retailers that have strong covenants and have demonstrated resilience in very volatile economic cycles.

Our strong foundation of strong necessity-based tenants with excellent covenants has been invaluable through the pandemic as they deliver stable revenue and long-term value. The strength and the stability of this core allows our team to focus on the much smaller proportion of tenants within our portfolio that are potentially vulnerable in these current conditions. Not surprisingly, this category is comprised primarily of apparel, some personal services, gyms, sit-down restaurants, and movie theaters. Although we anticipate the majority of tenants in this category will return to stability after this pandemic, as always, we continue to strategically evolve our portfolio. For instance, when the apparel segment started showing signs of weakness 10 years ago, RioCan initiated a significant reduction of our exposure in this category. It now represents only 7.4% of our annualized rental revenue, we're going to continue to reduce this number further over time.

There are more restructurings and failures to come. There's no doubt about that. This pandemic has created an environment where there's potential vulnerability in unexpected sectors such as restaurants and gyms. However, 90% of the tenants that we have identified as potentially vulnerable, well, they're in well-located major markets, and RioCan's major market properties are really always in demand. We've got the strongest leasing team in Canadian real estate. We've got a highly adaptable portfolio. We're going to continue to lean into these attributes to rebalance and mitigate the exposure to these vulnerable categories. We're going to use our well-located space to tap into evolving trends. Even in the midst of this pandemic, RioCan's leasing team negotiated an impressive 63 deals representing 368,000 sq ft of new leases in the third quarter. This is actually more new leasing than we did in the same quarter last year.

The rents we achieved were well above our average rent per square feet across our portfolio. We're signing deals with the kind of resilient tenants with strong covenants that really are emblematic of our overall portfolio. Our third quarter renewals also speak to the strength of our locations. In spite of the unprecedented disruption in the market, RioCan signed 145 renewals totaling nearly 950,000 sq ft in the third quarter. This translated into a retention ratio of 88.4%, very much in line with our historic pre-pandemic results. The blended new leasing and renewal spread for the quarter was a healthy 5.5%. Our renewal and new leasing spreads demonstrate there is still healthy upside between our average portfolio and market rents. We ended the quarter with 96% committed occupancy. That's a respectable number at any time, but even more impressive in this existing environment.

Our Q3 same property NOI growth was -9.1, so not really growth, but -9.1, but stronger than it was the previous quarter. However, as anticipated, it really was impacted by the short-term influence of COVID-19. Now moving over to RioCan Living, which is our residential portfolio. In the face of COVID-19, the collection of over 99% of our third quarter residential rent is really a testament to the desirability of RioCan Living's offering. Overall, leasing velocity continues to progress well at our rental residential properties, including Brio, which is our 163 unit property in Calgary, and our first development with partner Boardwalk REIT. We started leasing units at Brio at the beginning of April, and in spite of launching at the height of the pandemic in the hard-hit Calgary market, Brio is already 53% leased at just shy of pro forma rents.

RioCan Living will continue to add high-quality rental residences to our portfolio over the next few years. In addition to the combined 850+ units at eCentral, Frontier, and Brio, RioCan Living has more than 4,500 additional purpose-built rental residential units that are either currently under construction, or they're going to be starting by 2022 at the latest. Pivot, which is our 361 unit building at the intersection of Yonge and Sheppard in Toronto, commenced leasing in late October, with occupancy expected for December of this year. Now, Pivot, in our mind, perfectly represents the RioCan Living offering. It's directly adjacent to our newly renovated Yonge Sheppard Center, and it's on intersecting subway lines, which still matters. We're confident that whatever the short-term impact of COVID-19, Pivot and our other RioCan Living offerings will thrive in the long term.

We've also got 2,900 condo and townhouse units either completed or to be underway by 2022 at the latest. This includes 11YV in Toronto's Yorkville neighborhood, which is now firmly under construction, and it's 99% pre-sold. RioCan Windfields, which is our mixed-use development in Oshawa, is progressing extremely well. UC Towers, which is a 503 unit high-rise portion of the site, is 95% pre-sold, and U.C. Uptowns, the 153 unit low-rise component is effectively pre-sold. The first phase of retail at the site, excluding two undeveloped pads, is nearly 93% leased to strong necessity-based tenants such as Sobeys FreshCo, and others. This is pretty good in the face of the prevailing belief that there's no need for new physical retail locations. Collectively, these projects add much-needed high-quality residential inventory into some very tight Canadian markets. In addition, they provide us, RioCan and its unitholders, with additional revenue diversification.

While we don't rely on the income generated from these condo and townhouse projects, it will provide a bridge to supplement our core FFO, particularly during this pandemic. RioCan's intensification program will continue to unlock the significant value that's inherent in our existing assets. This program adds substantial net asset value and diversifies our sources of cash flow. It is as relevant now, in fact, potentially even more relevant than it was pre-COVID-19. Our focus has obviously been on managing our business and tapping into growth opportunities to drive resilient, sustainable value. It's also important to highlight that our commitment to sustainable growth hasn't diminished. We published our second sustainability report in September. Our achievements since last year include achieving the highest GRESB public disclosure score, which is an A rating, and improving our GRESB survey score by almost 29% over last year.

That makes three consecutive years of improvement, and we've also included environmental and social competencies in our board skills matrix, and we've incorporated ESG-specific goals in our employee performance review process. Now we know that embedding sustainability in all aspects of our business improves the value of our assets and our organization as a whole. It will continue to be an ongoing focus of ours. We're now well into the second wave of this pandemic. It's clear that recovery will take time. The balance of 2020 will certainly bring ongoing challenges in our sector. We will continue to explore the variety of new and relevant commercial uses that have increased in their viability throughout this pandemic. This includes micro-fulfillments, community care centers, and alternative retail uses. There are many other examples of innovative uses to which our portfolio lends itself, and we're carefully considering each and every one of them.

We're long-term thinkers, and we will proceed responsibly but quickly to make sound decisions to drive sustainable growth and, as always, create value. For 26 years, your team here at RioCan has demonstrated its ability to diversify our tenant mix and tap into evolving growth trends. We've done so to drive resilient, sustainable unitholder value. We continue to see proof that our adaptable major market properties are always in demand. We're going to continue to repurpose, always moving towards evolving needs. We're going to rapidly reshape our tenant base to focus more than ever on resilience. We've got the team, the locations, and certainly the balance sheet, and we also have the drive, expertise, and relationships to weather this storm. As always, RioCan will adapt, and we will thrive. I will now turn it over to Qi Tang, our CFO, for some more information.

Qi Tang
CFO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Thank you, John. Good morning, everyone. I would like to start by congratulating both Jonathan and Ed on their new roles effective next April. The entire RioCan team is rallying behind John. It's a great pleasure working with him, and I'm confident that he's going to do a great job leading the team as our next CEO. Congratulations, John. Ed built RioCan from the ground up and is the driving force behind our successes. I have learned a lot from him over the four years I've been with RioCan. I look forward to continuing to learn from him in his capacity as our Chairman. Ed, thank you very much for your leadership and mentorship. As Jonathan outlined, RioCan has delivered strong performance for the third quarter within a very challenging environment due to the pandemic.

We saw positive rent collection trend, continued momentum in leasing activity, and maintained a high occupancy rate. For the quarter, we reported FFO per unit of CAD 0.41, a CAD 0.06 or 17.2% improvement over Q2. During challenging times, such as we find ourselves amid a global pandemic, liquidity is of paramount importance. As at the end of the third quarter, RioCan continue to maintain ample liquidity of over CAD 800 million in the form of cash and cash equivalents and undrawn committed revolving line of credit and other credit facilities. In addition, our unencumbered assets stood at CAD 8.7 billion, generating 57% of our annualized NOI and providing 221% coverage for our unsecured debt. Our debt-to-adjusted EBITDA matric was 9.13x , and debt to total assets was 44.8%.

These two metrics increased from Q2, driven by the impact of the pandemic on property operations and valuation for the past two quarters. This is particularly notable for debt-to-adjusted EBITDA, considering it is a 12-month trading measure. We maintain our long-term goal of keeping our leverage and adjusted debt to EBITDA within the target range of 42% or lower and under eight times respectively. We expect these two metrics to increase marginally in the near term, given the impact of the pandemic on a 12-month trailing basis. Our cost of debt continued to decline with a weighted average effective interest of only 3.25%, which compared to 3.44% as of the year-end and 3.29% last quarter end.

With respect to capital recycling, during the quarter, we sold a 50% non-managing interest in our mixed-use residential development at Dufferin Plaza in Toronto at approximately CAD 116 per sq ft of the zoned density. Our new partner, Maplelands, is an affiliate of a large real estate conglomerate based in UAE. This is Maplelands' first entry into the Canadian real estate market and a testament to the attractiveness of our assets not only to Canadian investments, but also internationally. Also, in the quarter, we sold to Killam Apartment REIT a 50% co-ownership interest in Luma at approximately CAD 45 per sq ft of zoned density, plus reimbursement of development costs. This is our third partnership with Killam. Luma is the first phase of the redevelopment of RioCan's Elmvale Acres Shopping Centre in Ottawa.

We have already started construction on the project, which spans a discrete portion of the center that has no existing income. These two transactions, combined with two small deals, generated a total gross deal proceeds of about CAD 65 million, including development cost reimbursement and CAD 11 million inventory gains for the third quarter. We announced yesterday firm agreement to sell a 50% non-managing interest in the residential rental component, eCentral, and the commercial component of our ePlace mixed-use property at Yonge and Eglinton to Woodbourne on behalf of itself and one of its pension fund clients for CAD 150.8 million, in line with our IFRS value. This valuation represents capitalization rates of 3.5% and 4.5% for the residential and retail components respectively based on stabilized NOI.

We also agreed to sell to Woodbourne a 50% non-managing interest in our Rhythm residential rental development for CAD 5.4 million at CAD 51 per sq ft of zoned density, plus reimbursement of pre-closing developments and construction costs with some exceptions. Rhythm is the first phase of a multi-phase mixed-use development on a discrete portion of our Westgate Shopping Center in central Ottawa. Importantly, our assets with prominent high-growth locations, attractive demographics, and superior transit access have drawn interest and commitment from reputable partners here in Canada and abroad. These partnerships, attractive deal pricing, and the ongoing momentum of our residential projects during the current global pandemic reflect the demand for well-located, high-quality residential assets, as well as our established development expertise and the significant value creation opportunity that RioCan's pipeline offers.

We will continue our strategy to monetize the value inherent in our portfolio and development pipeline and reduce the amount and cost of capital required to build out our urban mixed-use developments. As of yesterday, including the eCentral and recent firm deals I noted earlier, we have firm or conditional deals to sell assets for gross proceeds of about CAD 276 million. These assets are mostly located in the major markets. The disposition consists of CAD 227.6 million of income-producing properties and about CAD 49 million of development property. These income-producing properties have a weighted average in-place capitalization rate of 3.6% based on firm or conditional deal prices. Development properties do not have a material in-place NOI, of course. We remain committed to our development program and unlocking the significant value inherent in our portfolio.

Our development projects are nearly all mixed-use developments within Canada's six major markets and will provide meaningful value creation when complete. On slide 18 of our conference call presentation, we highlight the benefit of our development program. One is asset diversification, as we diversify our portfolio into mixed-use residential. Another is NOI and FFO creation with enhanced levered development yield. Assuming our 42% leverage target, development yield is further enhanced by the low CMHC financing rate for mixed-use residential assets. Then there is the benefit of accelerated net assets growth. Given low cap rates for residential assets, intensifying our existing properties with residential assets provides significant NOI growth compared to that of equivalent commercial development.

Assuming a residential development with 5.5% yield and capitalization of 3.5%, it could generate over 55% NAV growth over cost, compared to about 10% NAV growth over cost with the commercial development, assuming the same development yield, but higher capitalization rate of 5%. Currently, retail accounts for about 90.2% of the Trust's annualized rental revenue, followed by office at 8.1% and residential at 1.7%. As more RioCan Living residential rental buildings currently underway are completed and stabilized, the residential proportion of the Trust portfolio will grow and the mixed-use nature and net assets of the Trust will expand. With that, I'd like to turn the call over to our CEO, Ed, for his closing remarks.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Thank you, Qi. Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you, Jennifer Suess. Good morning, everyone. Here we are almost eight months into a pandemic, the likes of which the world has actually not seen, really, in just over 100 years. I think the results we released this morning, and the presentations by Jonathan and Qi, confirm the resilience of RioCan's property portfolio and our people. Notwithstanding that the pandemic is causing greater difficulties for our tenants, and accordingly us, than we expected as recently as a couple of months ago. Not only are our results holding up well, but our progress in filling the holes that are created by bankruptcies and our tenants simply disappearing is extremely encouraging. We exist right now in what I've taken to calling an upside-down world as a result of the pandemic cloud that we are all living under.

Rent collection, rather than ability to grow FFO and net asset value, has become the most important metric by which REITs seem to be judged. The formerly irreplaceable, and for REITs in Canada, virtually unobtainable, downtown office towers and fortress malls have suddenly become properties that customers and tenants don't even want to go to. Urban retail is hurting, while suburban comparably is performing very well. Even that always-thought-to-be-bulletproof sector, multi-residential rental apartments, is being questioned due to a number of factors, not the least of which are government intervention by way of rent freezes and eviction prohibitions, and these from largely conservative provincial governments. Unfortunately, I could go on in showing you that everything that was accepted wisdom in the real estate business only eight months ago has been turned on its head, even in the face of record low interest rates and massive government spending.

The sole exception to this seems to be the market for new condominium developments and even more so, single-family homes and townhomes. Perhaps that is one sector that is actually reacting the way it should in the current interest rate environment, where just yesterday, the Bank of Canada promised us low interest rates well into 2023. Yet, RioCan is getting through this upside-down world even better than I would have thought. In the spring of this year, I warned that occupancy could go as low as 94% by year-end. In fact, as Jonathan has told you, it stood at 96% as of September 30th, and we don't foresee much, if any, deterioration in that metric by year-end.

Happily, we're leasing space up almost as fast as the tenants disappear. Unfortunately, no one anymore believes that saying goodbye to 2020 will mark the end of the pandemic or its effects on our business. It will end, I hope earlier in 2021 rather than later, but this is out of our control. All we can do is ensure that no matter how long it lasts, our liquidity remains robust, which it is and will be, and that our amazing team keeps finding new uses and tenancies for the space that inevitably will become available. Based on their performance in this last quarter, and for the last 26 years, quite frankly, I have no doubt they will. When the world rights itself, sometime next year, RioCan will continue and resume its growth in ways we are already working on. Of this, I am certain.

Those who choose to invest in what is our ridiculously undervalued units will be rewarded, and I believe rewarded very well. I have addressed well over 100 quarterly conference calls, but this is my penultimate call. You only have to put up with me one more time at our year-end call, which I believe is currently scheduled for February 11, 2021. I will leave for then any stories, thoughts on the future, and lessons learned, I will tell you now that I have complete confidence in the existing team, soon to be led by Jonathan Gitlin. I believe they have a portfolio that not only produces great cash flow, but is so rife with opportunities for growth in income and value that it will keep them profitably engaged for at least the next couple of decades.

Thank you for dialing in. We are now happy to take whatever questions you have for us.

Operator

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, if you have a question at this time, please press star then the one key on your touchtone telephone. If your question has been answered or you wish to remove yourself from the queue, please press the pound key. It'll just be one moment for our questions. Our first question comes from the line of Sam Damiani from TD Securities. Your line is open.

Sam Damiani
Analyst, TD Securities

Thanks, and good morning, everyone. Maybe just to start off on the transaction market. It's encouraging to see the pipeline of dispositions and progress at this time. Obviously, the eCentral and some other development properties form the bulk of it. Can you comment on the market for more traditional, stabilized retail properties? How is that shaping up, and do you see the ability for RioCan to cycle out of some of those assets to raise capital in the quarters ahead?

Jonathan Gitlin
President and COO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Sure. Go ahead, Ed.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Well, I was going to say, you know what? We're actually not looking to sell our traditional retail assets in any really big way. It's a very slow market in any event for those, because I think there's just so much uncertainty as to what, quite frankly, not only next year, but the future of retail. The narrative out there is so negative about the future of retail, which we don't agree with that narrative, obviously. I think our numbers are showing how incorrect that narrative is, that it's a bit of a bad way to raise capital. Instead, we're going to continue with what we've been doing, which is taking in partners in a lot of our development assets where we've created tremendous value that's quite simply not even on our balance sheet.

When we do sell them, we give up either very little, if any income, or sell them at a tremendously low cap rate, like eCentral. I think we're going to be focused on that rather than traditional assets. In any event, the market for traditional assets right now is so slow as to be almost nonexistent.

Sam Damiani
Analyst, TD Securities

I see. Second question is just on the tenant mix that you disclosed this quarter between strong, stable, and potentially vulnerable with just over 20% in the potentially vulnerable. How are the rent collections in there going forward? You've got, I think, around 85% in the quarter, but given the restrictions that have been imposed by governments in recent weeks, how should we think about that in the next couple of quarters?

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Well, a couple of quarters is a long time, Sam. We've seen how we've been going through this world. As we came through, I'll call it August and even into September, I think we all thought the world was in a pretty good place. As you can see from our collections and even into October. Our rent collections in October were, considering what's going on, quite excellent. Again, we always strive for 100%, but maybe we'll get back there again next year. Then in October, we had this 28-day shutdown, which has been extended in Quebec. Luckily, our exposure to Quebec is fairly small in the overall scheme of things. Even here in Toronto and Ottawa, which are really our two biggest individual markets by far, especially when you include the larger GTA and Peel, suddenly there was this 28-day lockdown.

There's only so long that tenants can go without revenue before they start wanting to talk to their landlord. I think this quarter it all depends how long the lockdown lasts. Premier Ford keeps talking about good news coming today. We'll see what that is. I think a lot of the tenants are pushing back against these, quite frankly, in my opinion, arbitrary lockdowns. All the tenants, by the way, that have been locked down are in that vulnerable category. I would expect that none of them are disappearing in the next quarter or two. Certainly, I say that quite confidently when it comes to tenants like Cineplex, like GoodLife. I was talking yesterday to the CEO of Cineplex, and there's been a lot of publicity about the gyms pushing back, but he's pushing back, too. Perhaps not as publicly.

He doesn't have a bunch of members that can send letters for him. As far as he knows, there hasn't been one case that's been traced to a movie theater. Again, arbitrary things happen. I understand government has to react. Even Mayor Tory, who I think has, until fairly recently, been a fan of stay home, lock everything down again. I'm probably overstating what he's saying, but even he understands that you're destroying society. Not just business, but society, when you don't have places for people to go where they can just get out of their apartments or their homes and be entertained and feel a little bit of normalcy, whether that's a gym, a restaurant, or a theater. That those things, even when it comes to mental health, perform a great service. I've given you a very long answer to a short question.

When it comes to numbers, I'll let Jonathan answer.

Jonathan Gitlin
President and COO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Well, no, I can add one more approach, which is, we also don't know at this point the extent and the nature of the new governmental assistance program, CERS. I do think that that will assist a fair bit of these potentially vulnerable tenants. Until we have that sense, it's also hard to predict what the overall impact will be.

Sam Damiani
Analyst, TD Securities

That's great. Thank you. I'll turn it back, but before I do so, I'll just congratulate you, Ed, and you, Jonathan. All the best.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Thank you.

Jonathan Gitlin
President and COO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Thanks so much, Sam.

Operator

Our next question comes from the line of Tal Woolley from National Bank Financial. Your line is open.

Tal Woolley
Analyst, National Bank Financial

Hi, good morning, everybody.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Good Morning.

Tal Woolley
Analyst, National Bank Financial

I just wanted to follow up on the discussion around eCentral and eCondo. I was thinking last night, when the press release came out, I was like, okay, this is a great demonstration of, A, what the company can do, the values that you can achieve when you look to sell some of these projects. At the same time, I kind of wondered, it's like, okay, you took a lot of time, development risk, financing risk, you're selling a portion of the project. Can you maybe talk to me about why this particular project, and maybe just a bit about the run-up into the decision to sell the 50% interest in this, because you were sort of already getting to stabilization.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Well, I'll let Jonathan add, of course, what he would like. Keep in mind, until just over a year ago, we only ever owned 50%. Basically, our strategy, if you look at almost all of our residential assets, is to be a 50% owner. That originally started out, quite frankly, as a way for us to learn the business, where the original partners we took in were people who were already in the multi-res business because actually operating things may not be rocket science, but designing them, figuring out what amenities you want to put in, how they actually operate on a day-to-day basis, and to keep them leased at the highest possible rents. That's something we have to learn. Lately, what we've switched to doing is bringing in more, what I call monetary passive partners, capital partners.

That's a program that if we want to raise capital to keep building new ones, is something that's quite frankly essential because we're laser focused on our balance sheet. We think that the quality of our balance sheet, the very objective, I had it right the first time, way in which we do our IFRS valuations, the measurements we take. We really think that within our sector, we have just a fantastic balance sheet, and this is one way of keeping it that way, and one way that fits in with our overall strategy.

Jonathan Gitlin
President and COO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yeah. Tal, I think that's a pretty fulsome answer. I don't have much to add to it other than it also is just a testament to our ability to manage these properties. We'll asset manage this asset, we're also at the Rhythm property out at Westgate in Ottawa. We will be the manager of that development. I think there's been a recognition that we've got a great skill set within RioCan, for us and our ability to really capitalize on that expertise, I think is a good thing for our unit holders. I think you will see, as Ed suggested, more and more examples of us being development manager or asset manager to these assets where we bring in these, call them capital partners.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yeah. I was going to add a little more because you asked a good question, Tal, because it's something we really thought about a lot internally here before coming to a conclusion that that's the sort of disposition strategy we should follow. The fact is, what is our expertise? Our expertise is in developing these properties, creating the value, rezoning the lands in the first place, and then even marketing the properties. We create them out of existing shopping centers and existing properties we own. By selling these 50% interests, and not to say that the market is cynical, but it is. We actually prove the value that we're creating to the marketplace. We don't just talk about it, we prove it. We think that's an important factor, too, in addition to the balance sheet and cash factors that I mentioned earlier.

Tal Woolley
Analyst, National Bank Financial

Okay. I guess my next question would be for Qi. We're starting to see ratings agencies take some actions around different sectors in the TSX. Can you just give an update sort of like on maybe when you last spoke and how you're feeling about how they're going to continue to look at credit ratings, if that's changed at all?

Qi Tang
CFO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Sure, Tal. Hi, good morning, everyone. Look, I will first address S&P. As you probably know, I think it's back in May, S&P actually host a general industry-wide conference open to all the issuers talking about their rating methodology. They particularly emphasize they're going to take a long-term view, and recognizing that the pandemic is certainly a relatively short-term phenomenon. They also, not long ago, only a few weeks ago, a couple of weeks ago, issued their report, reinstating the BBB rating on us. S&P is more clearly basically communicating their methodology. DBRS, certainly, through our discussion with them, they also indicated that they will take a more longer-term view, but there is more dialogue going on, and we actually have some meetings scheduled with them coming up post the quarter.

In the past, from our discussion, they also expressed a view to basically look into a more longer term as well.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

We did meet with DBRS as well and S&P after our second quarter results. They tend to watch a little more carefully perhaps today.

Qi Tang
CFO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yeah.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

We certainly see no indication of any issues there.

Tal Woolley
Analyst, National Bank Financial

Okay. Ed, you had mentioned probably your number one question was around collection rates. I would say that's probably number two for me. Number one question is always about, I'm sure you can guess what it is, it's the distribution. Can you just talk about how the board thought about distribution versus asset sales, things like that going forward this quarter?

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yeah. Look, it's a question that we discussed at the Board. Well, we didn't use to discuss it as often. It's something that obviously has been discussed since, quite frankly, April, when this whole mess hit us and the whole country went into lockdown. We advised the Board at that time that, from a liquidity point of view, there was no issue. That's still the case. There's certainly no issue from a liquidity point of view. Is it being valued by the market? I don't know. Probably not. That's not something we take too much into account. At the end of the day, the Board will have a continuing discussion with management over, quite frankly, is this the absolute best use of our funds? Are there other things we can do to create more value for unit holders, like buying back stock?

Keep in mind, the distribution itself, there's a certain level that we're required to maintain to keep our tax situation being what it is. I guess the Americans who, there were lots of REITs down there who just eliminated the distributions. That's never going to happen, I won't say in Canada, I guess in some cases, maybe some have no choice. That's never going to happen to any REIT that wants to stay a REIT for tax purposes. It's something we look at ongoing. Today, we're not obviously announcing any changes in it. It's something that is going to be like a lot of things. Depends on how the world's looking as the future unfolds, which nobody knows what that will be.

Tal Woolley
Analyst, National Bank Financial

Okay. Thanks very much, guys. That's great.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Okay.

Qi Tang
CFO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Thanks.

Operator

Our next question comes from the line of Jenny Ma with BMO Capital Markets. Your line is open.

Jenny Ma
Analyst, BMO Capital Markets

Thanks. Good morning, everyone.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Good morning.

Jenny Ma
Analyst, BMO Capital Markets

Congrats to Ed and Jonathan on your respective career moves.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Thank you.

Jenny Ma
Analyst, BMO Capital Markets

I wanted to ask a question about the composition of your rent collection bucket. If you look at sort of the pie chart that you had from this quarter versus last quarter, there's obviously been a huge improvement. I'm just trying to understand the moving parts. In terms of the increase in cash rent collected, would you say a lot of that came from the bigger deferral bucket from last quarter that caught up to this quarter, or the to-be-collected pie piece? Also my second related question is, for the provision piece, which is a little bit better, would you say the composition of the leases that are in there are more or less the same?

Qi Tang
CFO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Oh, hi, Jenny. I'll address that question. From my understanding of your question, you want to understand what is the underlying drivers between the cash collection change improvement between Q2 and Q3. It's really the fundamental, the strength of the tenant. We collected, as you can see, this Q2. When we first announced Q2 results, the Q2 collection is only 73%. Since then, of course, we collected more. Part of that collection is relating to the deferrals that used to be deferred in Q2. And now based on the agreed schedule, it's only a portion is due in Q3, so they got paid this quarter. You will see the drop in deferral from the 7.7% in Q2 when we announced Q2 earnings to only 6.5%. It's really a combination of collection of the deferred amount as well as additional collections.

For Q3, because more and more businesses are open, and of course, the strength of the tenants, our collection efforts, you can see pure tenant cash collection is already about 91%. October, again, that's without any federal funding, is 92%. Really it's a combination of how many businesses are open between Q2 and Q3, plus the fundamental strength of the tenants, as well as our rent collection efforts. The second part of your question, I believe, is on the provision. The Q2 provision, as you know, represents about 6.8% of the total bill rent. Q3 represents about 5.3%. The reason that it's close, you may ask, partly is because there are two main factors. One is Q2 provision, because so many businesses were closed during Q2, we have agreed again, back referring to the 7.7% deferral amount.

Those, as you can imagine, when we did the Q2 provision, we provided some provision even relating to deferrals, but based on all the collections in Q3, we're very comfortable with the Q2 provision. Q3, if you look at the cash collection and the remainder, because cash collection, including CECRA, is already 93.4%. Excluding the provision, we only have about 1.3% to be collected. That's between deferral. Essentially all the rest we provide is the provision. It's really a combination of Q2 is relatively lower, appears to be. It's only mainly because of the deferral amount.

Jenny Ma
Analyst, BMO Capital Markets

Okay, great. That's great color. I apologize if I missed this, if you discussed it earlier on the call, but as far as the residential inventory gains that were booked in the quarter, what were they related to? Do you expect this to be an item that pops up in the coming quarters?

Qi Tang
CFO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Inventory gains?

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

That's right.

Qi Tang
CFO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

That is the Dufferin Plaza, as we announced and disclosed. That one, because we sell the assets, we already anticipate, like even several quarters ago as we disclosed, that property already being moved to inventory because we expect to develop as a condominium project. When we sell the assets, partial interest, of course, for accounting purpose, that portion relating to the inventory part is recognized as the inventory gain.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

The second part of your question is, yes. The decision has already been made that a portion of a development or in case, in fact, all of the development is going to be a condominium rather than a rental, we classify it as inventory, and as we bring in partners or dispose of those assets, there will be those kinds of gains. Obviously, varying amounts of timing. Timing is a bit unpredictable because it depends on zoning, on the market. It depends on a lot of things. I think you'll see that as a regular part of our FFO, over the next quite a few years.

Jenny Ma
Analyst, BMO Capital Markets

Okay. Thank you. Just to be clear, Q3 was just Dufferin Plaza?

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

That's correct.

Jenny Ma
Analyst, BMO Capital Markets

Okay.

Qi Tang
CFO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Perhaps a minor adjustment on the others, but yeah.

Jenny Ma
Analyst, BMO Capital Markets

Okay. Then moving to eCentral, can you tell us what the split in the NOI is between eCentral and ePlace? I presume the ePlace piece is relatively small.

Jonathan Gitlin
President and COO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yeah. We didn't disclose that split precisely. It's predominantly, the vast majority of it is the residential component.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

I think there's only 28,000 ft of retail now. It's very well leased retail. Most of it's occupied by TD Bank, and the rest by mostly restaurants, QSR restaurants that are in fact open. The exact amount, it was timing.

Jenny Ma
Analyst, BMO Capital Markets

Okay. My final question is, for the stabilized NOI at eCentral, ePlace, you've got 92% occupancy now. What is the assumed occupancy in the stabilized number?

Jonathan Gitlin
President and COO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Closer to 98%.

Jenny Ma
Analyst, BMO Capital Markets

Okay, great. Thank you very much. I'll turn it back.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Thank you.

Operator

Our next question comes from the line of Howard Leung from Veritas Investment. Your line is open.

Howard Leung
Analyst, Veritas Investment

Hi. Thanks for taking my question. I just wanted to get a sense of the fair value changes in the quarter. It looks like the adjustments were, I guess in Q2, you could say they were all aligned in one direction, and now there is a bit of variance. Apologies if I missed it in the actual notes of the call, but just wanted to find out why mixed-use urban, there was a write-down there and gains in the grocery anchor centers.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

You know what? The changes, while they're looking that up, I'll just tell you, the changes were minimal, and write-downs weren't really related to market. Sometimes in the mixed-use urban, we tend to take a very conservative method, and some of the mixed-use write-downs, which were relatively small in the scheme of things, really were just where our cost to complete went up b y CAD 1 million, that gets reflected in the value.

Qi Tang
CFO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

That's actually pretty much the case. As you know, Q3 only have about CAD 9 million fair value of loss, which is a combination of a variety of little things. You see some up, some down.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

There were no major movements in anything, really.

Qi Tang
CFO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yeah.

Howard Leung
Analyst, Veritas Investment

No, understood. I guess these changes don't really relate to the second wave lockdowns that we've seen. I guess it would be after the quarter too, right? That would be in October.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Right.

Howard Leung
Analyst, Veritas Investment

If there's any changes, that might not be until Q4?

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Right.

Qi Tang
CFO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yeah, that's right. Also our Q3 rent collection, you know, is significant proof. If anything, we actually, in our Q2 estimate on the cash flow impact, is actually a much more severe impact than what.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yeah. Right now, I think our IFRS values are on the conservative side.

Jonathan Gitlin
President and COO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yeah.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

We took a very conservative view at the end of Q2. By the time we actually sat down to start doing the IFRS calculations for Q3, the lockdowns were starting. We said, "You know what? Let's just leave things largely alone and just make the changes that are required by reason of individual changes in circumstances in the property.

Jonathan Gitlin
President and COO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yeah. When we did the Q2 evaluations, we looked very much at use and location. We went through our properties one by one, as we always do, and we focused on enclosed malls and ones that had large theaters or ones that were located in sort of secondary Alberta markets, which is where there haven't been a lot of trades to evidence it, but our sense is that there would be some diminished values there, and that's what was reflected largely in those Q2 write-downs. We think that nothing changed between Q2 and Q3 in that regard.

Howard Leung
Analyst, Veritas Investment

Okay. No, that makes sense. I guess my other question, I wanted to touch on the question about distributions, and Ed's comments there about how you looked at the distribution and kind of said, there is kind of a necessary amount of distribution that needs to be paid each year to maintain the tax status. Can you kind of quantify roughly how much that would be, I guess, as a percentage of the current distribution right now?

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yeah. It's not an exact science because it depends on your go forward estimates of what's doing. Roughly it's about, I'd say 60 odd % must be paid of our current distribution. Is that fair, Qi?

Qi Tang
CFO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yes. Current year, that will be a fair estimate.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yeah.

Qi Tang
CFO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Just it's driven to quite extent beyond the income from operations. It's also how many transaction we do and how much taxable gains in there.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Right. It's a varying number. There's no bright line figure that I could give you, but if you use 60% as a must distribute, you wouldn't be far off either way.

Howard Leung
Analyst, Veritas Investment

Okay. No, yeah. That's pretty helpful. I guess when Qi talks about these capital gains, that includes partial dispositions like ePlace, eCentral?

Qi Tang
CFO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yes.

Howard Leung
Analyst, Veritas Investment

That's part of it as well?

Qi Tang
CFO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yeah.

Howard Leung
Analyst, Veritas Investment

Okay. No, that makes sense.

Qi Tang
CFO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Right.

Howard Leung
Analyst, Veritas Investment

Right. I guess that kind of relates to my next question about sales. Are you looking at kind of a consistent pipeline or expecting the pipeline of partial dispositions? I know it's hard to project a range, but if you think about next year, fiscal 2021, what range could that be in? Are we talking about CAD 100 million+ , CAD 200 million+ ?

Jonathan Gitlin
President and COO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yeah. We don't have a specific number in mind. I think there's going to be opportunity, given the strength of our land holdings, as Ed had suggested earlier, to do a number of other transactions where we bring in capital partners for development properties while giving up very little in the way of NOI and FFO. I think it's reasonable to say that there would be a couple hundred million CAD over the next 12 months or so. That's, again, at this point, an estimate. I mean, we're still in the process of finalizing our business plan for next year, where we'll be doing that, quite frankly, we're most of the way there, but quite frankly, in about 10 days or in the next couple of weeks, for presentation to our board at the beginning of December. I wouldn't be surprised if it contemplates CAD 200 million in dispositions.

Howard Leung
Analyst, Veritas Investment

Right. Yeah, that should free up some liquidity as well. That's good to know. No, thanks for answering the questions. That was very helpful. Congrats to Ed and Jonathan. I'll pass the line.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Thanks so much.

Operator

Our next question comes from the line of Pammi Bir from RBC Capital Markets. Your line is open.

Pammi Bir
Analyst, RBC Capital Markets

Thanks, and good morning. All things considered, it looks like the operating metrics were looking a little better in Q3, even if they are still challenged. I realize this is tough to answer, but how do you see your bad debts and abatements trending over the next six to 12 months or so?

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yeah, it is tough to answer because so much depends on what happens with retailers being open. What we clearly saw as we got through the second quarter and into the third, when retailers are open, they pay rent. They don't just always do it voluntarily, but they're doing business. They may or may not be making a lot of money, depending on the particular situation, but they pay rent. If you can tell me who's going to be open and who's going to be closed over the next six to nine months, I could give you a real good answer to that. We're relatively optimistic. So much of it depends on what goes on medically. If you would've told me that France was going to go into a complete lockdown

This weekend after seemingly to have come out of the summer in very good shape, I would've been very cynical about that. I think Canada overall is doing very well compared to many other parts of the world, including obviously the U.S. I also think that there's a real realization amongst the politicians that really matter when it comes to this, which is the provincial politicians by and large. You can see how they're trying to deal with things, that you can't just keep closing down the world. That it has more negative impacts, and I'm not just talking about business, but on all kinds of things, than it does positive.

I'm relatively optimistic that what we saw in the second quarter won't be repeated, and that until the world totally rights itself, we'll be chugging along more or less where we are with our third quarter results, possibly diminished a little the longer that this lasts. As we, again, I mentioned our business plan. Listen, we're going to build in plenty of provisions because there are going to be ongoing bankruptcies. There are going to be ongoing requests for abatements as tenants just can't keep going, and we'll deal with them in a fashion that's best for RioCan unit holders, which is not always best for them in the short term.

Pammi Bir
Analyst, RBC Capital Markets

Got it. Thanks. That's a great color. Just maybe thinking about maybe the overall leasing trends. Can you comment on what you're seeing with, again, coming back to the potentially vulnerable category of tenants. What sort of retention are you seeing? Are you doing percentage rent deals or shorter terms? Any color you can provide there?

Jonathan Gitlin
President and COO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Sure. I think some of those potentially vulnerable tenants are actually the very tenants that are coming out of CCAA protection, and largely apparel tenants. In certain cases, depending on the strength of the location, we're actually retaining the exact terms that they had prior to going into CCAA. Yeah, in certain situations, we are reverting to short-term deals that have floors on them, so at least the tenants are covering a certain amount of rent. There will be some variability in the rental rates. There are percentage rent deals. We are keeping those to very short term. I can't give you an exact percentage as to how much of our portfolio that represents, but it's fairly marginal in the scheme of things.

We are trying to keep that variability to a minimum for our own selves, for predictability purposes, and we just think it's better business. There are certainly some of those that are being considered.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yeah. Largely, they're potentially vulnerable. I think we got to emphasize potentially. If you include all the tenants that are mandated closed right now, they're all in that bucket.

Jonathan Gitlin
President and COO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yeah.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

If you include virtually every apparel retailer that we have, they're all in that bucket. That pretty well tells the tale. A lot's going to depend on what percentage of those. I'm actually quite pleased the way Jonathan and all our operating people and leasing people have gotten us through the last eight months. We have not entered into any long-term negative deals. We haven't had to. We haven't given up any long-term abatements. We haven't been required to. Where we gave any partial abatements, which we have done, and that forms a chunk of the provisions, we've always gotten something back for it. Whether that's an extension of term, future growth in rents, or, quite frankly, control of a site that has great development potential. We don't give away RioCan's money for nothing.

Pammi Bir
Analyst, RBC Capital Markets

Got it. Last one from me. I think we're getting into overtime here. Just nice to see those transactions with Woodbourne and some of the others in the works. When you think about the development program, you clearly mentioned laser focus on the balance sheet. Just where do you see leverage trending over the next year?

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

That's a good question. We're focused on our leverage. We want to keep our leverage really not much higher than it is now. I'm focused more on the net debt to EBITDA number, which is, as I'm sure you know, a much more real and objective number than the percentage of gross book value. Gross book value, I hate to tell you, but not all REITs gross book value are created equal. Probably something you already know, but don't write about. Looking at that net debt to EBITDA, we want to keep it no higher than it is now as best we can. It's one of the things driving the disposition program that we've got.

We do have a development program where clearly we're creating huge value, and we don't want to stop it, except to the certain cases, we're certainly going to slow it down. Even while we're slowing it down, it's with that leverage figure in mind. Over the course of the next year or two, again, going back to my opening remarks, assuming the world in that year or two does go back to right side up instead of upside down. We're sticking to the targets that we currently publish, where we want to have our net debt to EBITDA down in that eight or less area. I have no doubt that Jonathan will get us there.

Pammi Bir
Analyst, RBC Capital Markets

Got it. Thank you very much. Jonathan, congrats again, and Ed, congrats to you as well as you enter the next chapter, although I think we've got still a few more months to go. Thanks very much.

Jonathan Gitlin
President and COO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Thanks, Pammi.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Okay, operator, if there's no other questions.

Operator

We have one more question.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

This will be the last one, then.

Operator

Okay. Our final question comes from the line of Dean Wilkinson from CIBC.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Dean, I'm glad we made time.

Dean Wilkinson
Analyst, CIBC

Last and least, congratulations to both of you. Ed, it felt like you were just getting started.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Yeah. No, sometimes I feel that way. You know what? I'm looking forward to, just as Chair of the Board, just being supportive of Jonathan as he takes this ship into all kinds of interesting directions.

Dean Wilkinson
Analyst, CIBC

It's in good hands. It just reminded me that when I first met you that you were younger than I am now, so that makes me feel old.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

I don't know how to take that.

Dean Wilkinson
Analyst, CIBC

Yeah, well, we're about the same, too. Yeah. I just wanted to quickly circle back on that issue of debt. Ed, you've seen a cycle or two through your career, and you certainly look at things, 3.4 cap rate seems really low, but that's a 300 basis point spread over 10 year bond yields, effectively. I don't know that it is low. The last time RioCan units were yielding 10%, it probably cost you 8%+ to borrow. In a world where you can borrow with a two in front of it, and if we were to stay like this for a little bit longer, is the optimal capital structure to perhaps have more leverage? How do you think about that if the market doesn't sort of get us back on the right side of things?

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

You know what, Dean? I can tell you, first of all, we think about it a lot. Certainly with some of the CMHC product that is coming on stream for us, the number actually starts with a one rather than a two.

Dean Wilkinson
Analyst, CIBC

Please.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

1.75 for 10 years is the kind of numbers that are being thrown at us. That's why I used the phrase a year or two to get back to our targets. Might we, over the course of months and quarters rather than years, let it move up a little if we find that there's a really good use for those funds? I think the answer to that is we're going to talk about it internally. All within the context of going back through all the crises and issues and meltdowns that I've lived through and survived, the strength of your balance sheet is what differentiates you from others. Our unit values, I'm not sure that right now the market is focusing on that.

As we come through this pandemic and lenders, which I think is already starting to happen, become a little more picky as to who they're prepared to fund, having that very strong balance sheet is critical to the long-term prosperity of an entity like RioCan. So yeah, we might let it move up a few ticks on the net debt to EBITDA or the gross book value percentage in the short term, just to take advantage of what are historically low interest rates. Yeah, borrowing money at 2% or less is rocket fuel for any company. Ultimately, there's a price to pay for it. Generally, notwithstanding what others may think, we're pretty conservative when it comes to debt.

Dean Wilkinson
Analyst, CIBC

Great. That answers it fully. Again, thanks, congrats, and I'm sure we're going to see you for a long time still anyway.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Dean, thank you very much. Well, you may see me, but you won't hear me on these calls. Okay, I think that's the end of it. Operator, thank you very much, and everybody that dialed in, thank you very much. This will be the end of RioCan's Q3. I'll look forward to talking to you for the last time in February. Everybody keep well, stay safe, and bye-bye.

Jonathan Gitlin
President and COO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Bye-bye.

Ed Sonshine
CEO, RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust

Bye.

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for participating in today's conference. This concludes today's program. You may all disconnect. Everyone have a great day.