5N Plus Inc. (TSX:VNP)
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Earnings Call: Q4 2022

Feb 22, 2023

Operator

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for standing by. Welcome to the 5N Plus Inc.'s fourth quarter 2022 results conference call. At this time, all participants are in a listen only mode. After the speaker's presentation, there will be a question and answer session. To ask a question during this time, please press star one. If you require immediate assistance from the operator, please press star zero. I would like to turn the conference over to your speaker today, Richard Perron, Chief Financial Officer. Please go ahead, sir.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Bonjour à toutes et à tous. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us for our Q4 and full year 2022 results conference call and webcast. We'll begin with a short presentation, followed by a question period with financial analysts. Joining me this morning is Gervais Jacques, our President and CEO. We issued our financial results yesterday and posted a short presentation on the investors section of our website. I would like to draw your attention to slide 2 of this presentation. Information in this presentation and remarks made by the speakers today will contain statements about expected future events and financial results that are forward-looking and therefore subject to risks and uncertainties.

A detailed description of the risk factors that may affect future results is contained in our management's discussion and analysis of 2022, dated February 21st, 2023, available on our website in our public filings. In the analysis of our quarterly results, you will note that we use and discuss certain non-IFRS measures, which definitions may differ from those used by other companies. For further information, please refer to our management's discussion and analysis. I will now turn the conference over to Gervais.

Gervais Jacques
President and CEO, 5N Plus

Merci, Richard. Good morning, everyone. Yesterday, we released our fourth quarter and annual results for the year ended December 31st, 2022. While revenue for the fourth quarter was slightly down due to the divestiture of our Tilly, Belgium operations, revenue for the year was up 26%, with adjusted EBITDA coming in at $30 million, which hit the high end of our guidance range for the year. The acquisition of AZUR, which has now been fully integrated, played a significant part in the increase in revenue for the year. Our performance was also bolstered by higher demand for renewable energy in specialty semiconductors and pharma and health in performance materials. We are delighted with these results, especially in light of the challenging year and headwinds caused by inflation and geopolitical events.

These results demonstrate our success in executing on our strategy to focus on value-added end markets and client partnerships. Also contributing to our success was our ability to secure strategic agreements like those with First Solar, Sierra Space, and Rio Tinto in high growth sectors. We also were successful in quickly implementing the first wave of our commercial excellence program to mitigate the negative impact of inflation on product margins, resulting in a sequential improvement of consolidated adjusted gross margin from 21.9% in Q1 2022 to 26.7% in Q4 2022. With our specialty semiconductors segment, we continue to be the only viable global supplier outside China of ultra-high purity semiconductor compounds used in a wide range of critical technologies essential to people's lives.

The space power market is experiencing growth above our most optimistic forecasts. During the fourth quarter, we were highly focused on implementing 24/7 production schedules to critical back-end production areas at AZUR and ensuring a comprehensive review of our overall capacity to address near-term demand. We are investing in our operations to meet up exceptional customer demand over the coming years across our key markets as a market leader. We are also uniquely positioned to play a significant role in the new photon-counting detector technology for CT scan, which is set to revolutionize medical imaging in the medium term. In addition, we are exploring other potential market opportunities for our specialty semiconductor products in the defense and security sectors.

Under performance materials, we expect our health and pharmaceutical products to continue providing high profitability and consistent cash flows, and we continue to focus on the right sectors to extend the segment's product mix in attractive end markets. Before the end of 2022, we completed the strategic review of our operations. As part of that review process, we completed the divestiture of our Tilly, Belgium operations, which streamlines our product offering, improves our footprint, and marks our exit of the low-margin extractive and catalytic sector. In 2022, we also completed our Saint-Laurent project in Montreal, expanding the development and manufacturing of critical minerals for advanced II-VI-based semiconductor compounds. For this facility, byproducts sourced from our strategic agreement with Rio Tinto Kennecott Utah Copper Operation started late December 2022.

Across our manufacturing sites, we will continue to invest in capacity building in line with the ramp-up of our commercial agreements. With high value-added products and strategic contracts signed, we are excited about our prospects for the future. Across our business, we remain at the forefront of our field as a critical supplier to critical industries around the globe and a genuine differentiator and partner of choice in the field of specialty semiconductors. As we enter 2023, we will build on this strong momentum. Strategically, we continue to implement operational optimization initiatives where appropriate to bring incremental benefits to support organic growth while remaining disciplined on acquisition and strategic partnership opportunities. On a final note, to our employees, we would like to thank them for their dedication and hard work. To our stakeholders and shareholders, the company like to thank them for their continuing confidence and support.

I will now hand over to Richard to discuss our results in more detail before we take questions from analysts. Richard, over to you.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Thank you, Gervais, good morning, everyone. As Gervais mentioned, fiscal 2022 was an important chapter for 5N Plus. From a purely financial performance perspective, the company showed capability to respond swiftly to difficult conditions. Notwithstanding the sanctions impacting Russia-based clients, which impacted our Q1 results, cost pressures remained intense throughout the year due to global inflation and the energy crisis. Our response was to quickly implement the first wave of our commercial excellence program, aimed at rapidly mitigating the negative impact of inflation on product margins, which improved consolidated adjusted gross margins from 21.9% in the first quarter to 26.7% in the last quarter. By the end of the year, we completed the strategic review of our operations to support our long-term positioning in value-added markets.

This ultimately led to the divestment of our non-strategic manufacturing operations located in Tilly, Belgium, divested in late December to a third party. This transaction is expected to provide incremental adjusted EBITDA contribution to the consolidated results of approximately $2 million a year. In addition, it supports more favorable net working capital levels and better allocation of resources. As the impairment charges and loss on divestiture recorded in Q3 and Q4 were non-cash in nature, we're able to realize most of our affiliate net working capital, repatriating the excess liquidity prior to the transaction. As Gervais noted, we successfully integrated AZUR SPACE this year, enhancing the growth prospect for our space solar power products beyond our initial expectations. At the moment, the business carries a backlog of representing approximately 2 times AZUR's historical level.

Keeping in mind that our definition of backlog presented in these reports refers to shipments over the next 12 months only. Turning now to revenue, gross margin, and adjusted EBITDA for Q4 and the full year. Revenue in Q4 decreased slightly, reaching $61 million compared to $64.6 million in Q4 of last year. The decrease is primarily attributable to the phase out initiated earlier in the year of our extractive and catalytic products manufactured in Belgium and our divestiture of that facility in late December. For the full year of 2022, revenue increased by 26%, reaching $264.2 million compared to $210 million in full year of 2021, supported by the November 2021 acquisition of AZUR and higher demand from both segments.

Adjusted gross margin in Q4 was favorably impacted by product mix in our commercial excellence program. Adjusted gross margin reached $16.3 million or 26.7% compared to $15 million or 23.2% in Q4 last year. For the full year, adjusted gross margin was also favorably impacted by our volumes and the acquisition of AZUR. Adjusted EBITDA in Q4 of 2022 reached $6.7 million, a decrease of $3.4 million compared to $10.1 million in the same quarter of last year. The adjusted EBITDA decreased by $2.6 million under specialty semiconductors, mainly due to AZUR's better balanced quarterly adjusted EBITDA contribution throughout the year 2022, compared to 2021, when most of the contribution was realized in Q4 following the AZUR acquisition in November.

Under performance materials, adjusted EBITDA decreased by $1.2 million, mainly impacted by inflation and a phase out and divestiture of our low-margin products manufactured in Belgium. For the full year, the adjusted EBITDA reached $30 million, meeting the high end of our forecast. The increase of $1.8 million over 2021 was mainly attributable to growing specialty semiconductors despite the negative impact of the Russia-Ukraine conflict that began in Q1. While performance materials was the most impacted of the two operating segments by global inflation and additional corporate expenses associated with the integration of AZUR and other corporate projects. In full year 2022, the EBITDA was $4.6 million compared to $25 million in 2021.

While adjusted EBITDA increased by $1.8 million, the increase did not compensate for the impairment on non-current assets of $5.4 recorded earlier in the year. In addition to the loss from divestiture recorded in Q4 and the impairment on non-current assets of $7.1 recorded in Q3, following our confirmed intentions to exit the manufacturing of low margin products in Belgium, the various charges are non-cash in nature. Looking at the annualized backlog. Backlog on December thirty-first of 2022 represented 253 days of annualized revenue, an increase of 61 days or 30% over the backlog of Q3. When compared to Q4 of last year, the backlog of specialty semiconductors increased by 77 days, largely attributable to favorable negotiations on long-term contracts, confirming the near-term growth potential in renewable energy and space applications.

Conversely, the backlog for performance materials decreased by 36 days compared to December of last year, reaching 124 days compared to 160 days. The decrease is mainly associated with the divestiture of our Belgian operations. As I noted earlier, our definition of backlog refers to shipments over the next 12 months. Even though we do have orders and commitments beyond 2023 on the renewable energy and space. Turning to expenses. SG&A expenses in Q4 and full year were $7.2 million and $28.6 million respectively, compared to $7 million and $21.9 million. The increases are mainly explained by the acquisition of AZUR, inflation, and the lifting of restrictions related to COVID. Litigation and restructuring costs of $3.2 million and $3.8 million we recorded in Q4 and full year 2022 respectively.

These included $2.6 million related to the divestiture of our subsidiary, $0.4 million of the site closure in Asia, and $0.4 million for the settlement of a contract by mutual agreement recorded in Q1. In Q4, we divested our 100% interest in 5N Plus Belgium SA and recognized a loss on divestiture of $7.8 million. Financial expense in Q4 amounted to $0.2 million compared to $2.2 million in Q4 of last year. The positive impact is mainly due to interest income earned following the recent settlement of an international tax arbitration between two jurisdictions where we operate. A gain on foreign exchange and a derivative mitigating our interest on long-term debt and imputed interest following the acquisition of AZUR.

On a full year basis, financial expenses amounted to $5.2 compared to $4.1 last year. Covering liquidity, in 2022, cash generated by operating activities amounted to $23.8 million compared to $10.3 million last year. The increase due to the positive changes in non-working capital, especially under Tilly, Belgium. For the full year 2022, cash used in investing activities represented $19 million compared to $49.9 million last year, of which $42.2 million was attributable to the acquisition of AZUR and $2 million for the acquisition of a minority equity stake in Microbion Corporation. A good portion of the PP&E acquired under investing is presented as a gross, excluding the cash contribution from clients recognized as deferred revenue under operating activities.

On a full year basis, cash used by financing activities amounted to $2.4 compared to $36.2, mainly explained by the difference in the net drawdown of the credit facility during the period and the acquisition of AZUR last year. Now looking at gross and net debt. Total debt stood at $121 million at the end of the year, with net debt after considering cash and cash equivalent, decreasing by $1.8 million to $78.3 million at the end of December 2022. Now turning to guidance. With unprecedented demand for renewable energy and space solar power products, investments in high growth opportunities and a streamlined product mix, 5N Plus enters 2023 with strong momentum and a more streamlined, predictable business. This is illustrated by our ability to provide guidance for the first time for the next two fiscal years.

For fiscal 2023, we expect adjusted EBITDA to be in the range of $35 million-$40 million, with the higher contribution in the second half of the year due to planned release of orders. For fiscal 2024 to be between $45 million and $50 million. In conclusion, we are better positioned for the future to build and maintain our market leadership position in the promising sectors in which we excel. We believe the future is promising and expect consistent growth in the years to ahead. Thank you all. I will now turn the call back to the operator for the analyst questions.

Operator

Thank you, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, if you do have any questions, please press star followed by one on your touch-tone phone. You will then hear a three-tone prompt acknowledging your request. If you would like to withdraw from the question queue, please press star followed by two. If you're using a speakerphone, please lift the handset before pressing any keys. Please go ahead and press star one now if you have any questions. Your first question will be from David Ocampo at Cormark Securities. Please go ahead.

David Ocampo
Equity Research Analyst, Cormark Securities

Thanks. Good morning, everyone.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Good morning.

David Ocampo
Equity Research Analyst, Cormark Securities

I guess first one for Richard Perron. For your 2023 and 2024 guidance, I was just curious, is there any revenue or profitability baked in there related to the CT scanner market or any of the new other verticals that you guys are pursuing, such as security and defense? There's a little bit obviously introduced, but nothing, I'm gonna use the word important because we continue to believe that that opportunity is more a three to five-year horizon than the next two years, but there's a little bit of improvement built into it, yes. Okay. That makes sense. Gervais Jacques, I was just hoping you could speak in more detail about the opportunities that you are seeing in space and if you require any large CapEx to meet and service that demand.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Well, thanks for the opportunity of addressing this. I think the first thing we've been doing is introducing, you know, 24/7 operation and seven days operation. You know, when we acquired AZUR, that was mainly operating in the 2 shift and 5 days. We slightly introduced the 6 days, and now it's a continuous operation. That was the first move we did. Obviously, that's not enough to meet all the demand that we're facing, and we are contemplating, you know, you know, targeted growth. It has to be always backed with firm, you know, order, making sure that we know exactly the payback of these investments.

Maybe just to add, and I made a short reference in my introduction. We do have clients that are providing us with equipment to support capacity expansion.

Gervais Jacques
President and CEO, 5N Plus

Yeah. This is part of our partnership approach. You know, if they definitely need more capacity, then we need to find ways to work with them to address this gap, because there's clearly a gap to be addressed in this market. I think the opportunity is up there and, we need to find creative solution with them.

David Ocampo
Equity Research Analyst, Cormark Securities

Oh, that's helpful. I guess with the 2024 guidance out there, you guys probably have some pretty good confidence and visibility on the order backlog beyond the 12 months. Just curious if your capacity is also sold out for 24 and 25, just beyond the 12-month backlog that you guys give.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

We're definitely gonna be flirting with the high, high end of that, of our capacity by then, yes.

David Ocampo
Equity Research Analyst, Cormark Securities

Yep. That's very helpful. I'll jump back in the queue. Thanks, guys.

Operator

Thank you. Next question will be from Michael Glen at Raymond James. Please go ahead.

Michael Glen
Equity Research Analyst, Raymond James

Hey, thanks for taking the question. I just wanna look at your specialty semiconductor EBITDA and if possible, look at it relative to 3 Qs, because the top line in the business was, for all intents and purposes, it was about the same, but the margin came off and the EBITDA contribution came off sequentially. I'm just trying to understand, like between the third quarter of 2022 and fourth quarter of 2022, what's sort of the variance in the product mix or some of the profitability that impacted the specialty semiconductor segment?

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

We with AZUR changes our usual rule of thumb, but we definitely had a bit more renewable energy in the second half than the first half. We don't look at it Q3, Q4. We look at it, especially renewable energy is more on a semester basis that we look at it now. Like we know, we know the second semester this year now is gonna be materially better than the first half. Last year it was also the case. AZUR is a more difficult beast to forecast from a mix perspective from one quarter to another, client and product-wise. I would probably need to be a little bit deeper into the mix of clients and products for AZUR between Q3 and Q4 to answer properly.

Gervais Jacques
President and CEO, 5N Plus

Yeah.

Michael Glen
Equity Research Analyst, Raymond James

Okay.

Gervais Jacques
President and CEO, 5N Plus

If I may, let me add that. You know, when we acquired AZUR, you know, we had to deliver a contract that had been signed, you know, previously. It's starting this year, the new contract that we've been signing will kick in, and I think that's and we will see that happening now, but more and more in the back end of the year and then next year. You know, the reflecting the higher demand, we'll see the impact later on this year and next year. You know, now we because of the way it works with that type of program, programs are normally lasting between 12-18 months, sometimes 24 months. Now we're delivering the order that were signed under previous ownership.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

That's a high level.

Michael Glen
Equity Research Analyst, Raymond James

Okay.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

These on a quarterly basis has also, its own dynamic.

Gervais Jacques
President and CEO, 5N Plus

Yeah.

Michael Glen
Equity Research Analyst, Raymond James

Okay. Then can you just touch on, like, in terms of your guidance, how we should think about CapEx and free cash conversion for both 2023 and 2024?

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Okay. 23, the usual rule of thumb will apply, which is, usually CapEx are in the range of our net cash out CapEx, 'cause remember, some clients are participating, will be in the range of our, PPE, depreciation on PPE charges. For 2024, we're still working on it. We may have a little bit more than the usual depreciation, but we're working on the, on the current CapEx program as we speak.

Michael Glen
Equity Research Analyst, Raymond James

Like, if I'm looking at the $16 million of PP&E in 2022, I think that's what the full year number was, it would be-

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

cash out.

Michael Glen
Equity Research Analyst, Raymond James

In line with it?

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Cash out was in the range of $12.

Michael Glen
Equity Research Analyst, Raymond James

Within the range of 12?

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Yeah.

Michael Glen
Equity Research Analyst, Raymond James

Okay.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

'Cause part of the client's contribution.

Michael Glen
Equity Research Analyst, Raymond James

Okay.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

has ended under deferred revenue and other things.

Michael Glen
Equity Research Analyst, Raymond James

Okay. Just one more for me. Can you just as we look at some of your commodities right now, so tellurium and bismuth market pricing for those two commodities, how do you see those two commodities impacting results in 23?

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

I mean, there's no way for us to think that it's either gonna be materially up or down from a notation perspective. We have some stability at this point.

Michael Glen
Equity Research Analyst, Raymond James

There's nothing in the market right now.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Exactly. Stable from current levels.

Michael Glen
Equity Research Analyst, Raymond James

Okay. Okay, thank you.

Operator

Thank you. Your next question is from Rupert Merer at National Bank. Please go ahead.

Rupert Merer
Managing Director, National Bank

Hi, good morning.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Morning.

Rupert Merer
Managing Director, National Bank

It seems your R&D expenses were up a bit in the quarter, and that may have been weighing on the EBITDA. You referred to some moving parts related to subsidies and grants in your disclosures. Can you talk about what we saw in Q4 for R&D? Give us a little more color there, but also what should we expect into the future? It seems to be mostly related to AZUR.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Yeah. Today, the distribution of our R&D charges between our businesses, AZUR will carry a higher weight versus the usual 5N Plus. At the same time, because of its strategic positioning in Europe and health, they're getting a fair bit of grants, but distribution of those grants from one quarter to another quarter will vary. We have a pretty good idea of the full year perspective, but the actual realization, recognition from a quarter to another, that's gonna be a bit more unequal.

Rupert Merer
Managing Director, National Bank

Am I right that was up about $2 million this quarter versus what we'd seen in other quarters?

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

The $2 million is a combination of two factors, grant level and allocations . As part of the integration of AZUR to 5N Plus, we continue to realign the bookkeeping, the accounting, the definitions of AZUR to the rest of the group. There's a portion of that which is just a proper classification forward, aligned with the other units of the group, which is, I mean, normal as part of that first full year of integration to 5N Plus.

Rupert Merer
Managing Director, National Bank

Okay. The run rate going forward could be a little lower than you'd anticipate?

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

We anticipate it's gonna be, yeah, slightly lower.

Rupert Merer
Managing Director, National Bank

Thank you. Then on the guidance, I was wondering if you could give us a little more color on that bridge and what your assumptions are for the baseline business relative to 2022, also if you can give some color on maybe what the biggest risks are to the guide and any opportunities you might have to find new business that will be incremental to the guide?

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

The guidance, essentially, it's a bottom-up exercise where all of our subsidies, subsidiaries and people participated. It's essentially based on contracts for which we have committed. A little bit of growth under medical imaging and stability on the rest of our business. It's built mostly around renewable energy and our space business. The rest, there's a little bit of upside, but we're very prudent.

Rupert Merer
Managing Director, National Bank

What do you think would be biggest risks and opportunities to the guide?

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Opportunities, well, sectors like medical imaging happening sooner than expected. There's always a little bit of effects that may play favorably. There's always a little bit of notation that may play favorably. Current assumptions are, as I said, show a decent level of conservatism. Those are the things. We have to be honest, renewable energy and space, I mean, we have long-term contracts. Space, as we've mentioned, we have 2 years of backlog, and that business used to carry about a year backlog. The next couple of years there, I mean, the range that we're providing, I think we have, as I said, a fairly good level of conservatism built into it.

Upsides will be, as I said, things that are less of our control, notations, effects, maybe, as I said, medical imaging, where we know we're gonna be playing a role. The challenge is to assess when that market will pick up in a material way.

Gervais Jacques
President and CEO, 5N Plus

Yeah. Let me add, I'll maybe as well, the Inflation Reduction Act that is happening in the U.S. in terms of geopolitics could also be an upside. I think we see a first wave, and we see that happening more and more, I think that could be another potential upside.

Rupert Merer
Managing Director, National Bank

Sorry, just one final question. Could notations be a headwind to the guidance? What would you see as the potential?

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

That's why.

Rupert Merer
Managing Director, National Bank

rising commodity prices.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

That's why we're providing a range, huh?

Gervais Jacques
President and CEO, 5N Plus

Yes.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Don't have 100% control of all the.

Gervais Jacques
President and CEO, 5N Plus

Yeah.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

On all factors impacting our business. That's why it's a range.

Rupert Merer
Managing Director, National Bank

That headwind is manageable then. Any potential risk from rise?

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Yes. Yes. We're definitely, I mean, with the divestiture of Tilly, we now have a product offering where the actual metal content is lower and lower and continues to be lower than anything that has been in place a few years back. We're less and less exposed to metal. Look, we make products that are made out of minerals, so.

Rupert Merer
Managing Director, National Bank

Thank you. Appreciate the color.

Operator

Thank you. Next question will be from Nick Agostino at Laurentian Bank Securities. Please go ahead.

Nick Agostino
Managing Director, Head of Equity Research, and Diversified Technology Analyst, Laurentian Bank Securities

Yes. Good morning. Just wanted to just cover off a couple of, I guess, housekeeping items, just issues that plagued the company in the past. Just looking at shortages. When you look at the shortage situation through 2022, was there any impact that you may have seen in Q4, or is that pretty much in the rear view mirror?

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Just to make sure I understand your question, when you're referring to shortages, can you be just-?

Nick Agostino
Managing Director, Head of Equity Research, and Diversified Technology Analyst, Laurentian Bank Securities

Well, just any supply chain, supply chain issues, whether it's chip related, just anything to do with supply chain in general.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

No, I don't think the, I mean, the global topic of shortages impacted us in any way in 2022. No.

Nick Agostino
Managing Director, Head of Equity Research, and Diversified Technology Analyst, Laurentian Bank Securities

Okay.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

We've been able to manage. We've been able to find carriers. We've been able to source our key chemicals and consumables. I mean, it required a bit more work, but it did not impact our business.

Nick Agostino
Managing Director, Head of Equity Research, and Diversified Technology Analyst, Laurentian Bank Securities

Okay. The other question, just as you're going through the Q4 contract renewal process, and in the past you guys talked about the value pricing strategy and pushing through higher pricing, is that discussion still happening? Are there contracts where you are bringing that topic to the table? And if so, how is it being received as you're talking to customers when it comes to their contract renewal and trying to push through pricing? And more so, are you able to get pricing increases well above the just the rate of inflation?

Gervais Jacques
President and CEO, 5N Plus

Well, you've seen our margin that has been increasing from Q1 to Q4. Yes, we are addressing that systematically with all customers. Yes, sometimes it's easier than other. You know, what we're doing now is we're producing, you know, very complicated products, high technology. I think we need to make sure that we're valorizing these products at the right level. Our assumption is that was not the case, and this is what we're trying to do on a daily basis, making sure that our key differentiator attributes are valorized, making sure that we're partnering with our customers for not only the product that we're producing today, but for the next generation of products, also addressing, you know, where we could, you know, R&D opportunities with them.

It's a basket of opportunities, but commercial excellence means really partnering with the customers and making sure that we are valorizing our products at the right level. We believe there is still room for improvement, and this is built in our guidance for the next two years.

Nick Agostino
Managing Director, Head of Equity Research, and Diversified Technology Analyst, Laurentian Bank Securities

Okay. That's helpful. Just couple 2 more questions. Just wanna make sure I heard correctly. Richard, did you say that on AZUR, the backlog is at 2 times the historical level? Just wanna make sure I heard that correctly.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Yes. Yes, it is the case. As I also mentioned, the KPI that we're presenting in our documents, our definition, if you read it in the back, it says that putting the next 12 months. Reality is that renewable energy and space, it goes beyond 12 months. Space, as I've mentioned, they used to carry 1 year or so, now they now carry about 2 years worth of backlog.

Nick Agostino
Managing Director, Head of Equity Research, and Diversified Technology Analyst, Laurentian Bank Securities

Right. Which is my second question, why not provide... I know that the backlog number you're providing is a one-year for the next 12 months. Why not disclose what the backlog looks like beyond 12 months? Given the fact that you're providing a two-year EBITDA guidance number.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Okay, that's a good question. The plan is the following: We wanted to complete 2022 on the same basis of 2021. For 2023, we may add additional comments to give you a bit more flavor on what we're just mentioning now.

Nick Agostino
Managing Director, Head of Equity Research, and Diversified Technology Analyst, Laurentian Bank Securities

Yeah. Okay. Let's see what I have. I'll leave it there. I thought I had one more question, but I'll leave it there. Thank you.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Thanks.

Operator

Once again, ladies and gentlemen, if you do have any questions, please press Star followed by one on your touchtone phone. Your next question will be from Frederic Tremblay at Desjardins. Please go ahead.

Frederic Tremblay
Director of Equity Research, Desjardins

Thanks. Good morning.

Gervais Jacques
President and CEO, 5N Plus

Morning. Morning.

Frederic Tremblay
Director of Equity Research, Desjardins

Just one maybe wanna go back on the project Saint-Laurent there for a minute. Maybe if you can discuss the ramp-up of the equipment there and sort of initial deliveries from Rio Tinto, just your initial thoughts on how that project and partnership is going so far?

Gervais Jacques
President and CEO, 5N Plus

Well, we did the start-up commissioning in December, then now we are operating, you know, at a normal rate. You know.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

There's definitely.

Gervais Jacques
President and CEO, 5N Plus

Yeah

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

room for improvement from a performance perspective, but the project has been commissioned.

Gervais Jacques
President and CEO, 5N Plus

Yeah. You know what we're doing now? We, we've been testing all the equipment one by one. We've been operating on a continuous way. Now, you know, part of the ramp-up, we're testing different materials. I think we have more than one source. We're trying to diversify the sourcing. Rio Tinto is one of them, which is a new one, but we're also working on other sources, and I think that's part of the commissioning, making sure that all the different products will be tested and then optimized. We're quite pleased about the way it's working now.

Frederic Tremblay
Director of Equity Research, Desjardins

Okay. Then switching to AZUR. I know in the past, their results have been historically skewed towards the second half of the year. Perhaps that wasn't really the case in 2022, but just wondering, going forward, with the visibility you have on their backlog and perhaps the deliveries, anything to mention there from a sort of a quarterly pace of revenue for them? Is it gonna be back to the, you know, being heavily skewed to the second half in 2023?

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Currently, what I can foresee from a release perspective, okay, Q2 and Q3 will be the strongest, and I suspect Q3 will be stronger than Q2. That's what we can foresee. I mean, there's always a potential for changes in the release dates. Even though, again, we have a commitment for the full year, the release dates may vary from one quarter to another. So far what I can see is Q2 and Q3 potentially be their strongest quarter, with Q3 slightly better.

Frederic Tremblay
Director of Equity Research, Desjardins

Okay, that's helpful. Last question for me, just on capital allocation priorities. You mentioned CapEx earlier, but maybe you wanna touch on a few other topics there, if you have any comments on, you know, debt reduction. I know you briefly mentioned M&A as well. Maybe just your thoughts on those two areas, and that'd be helpful.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Well, as we, as most people know, we're extremely diligent on how we manage the balance sheet.

Frederic Tremblay
Director of Equity Research, Desjardins

Yeah.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

We'll make sure we make the best use of our cash, and our cash will be used primarily towards making sure we can meet the customer demand. That's what you'll see from a allocation of capital the next couple of years, but at the same time, within parameters that are diligent.

Frederic Tremblay
Director of Equity Research, Desjardins

Great. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. Next question is from Michael Glenn at Raymond James. Please go ahead.

Michael Glen
Equity Research Analyst, Raymond James

Hey, thanks for getting me in. Can you just touch on what you're expecting, in terms of the growth profile of the First Solar business over 2023? I know it's 35% for the year, but how we should think about that, over the course of the year.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

The current, I'm gonna use the term again, like for AZUR release. The planned releases for the year is a much stronger second half than first half, okay? With Q1 being the lowest of all four quarters, Q2 improving a little bit from a release perspective. The bulk of the volume, and by default, the increase over 2022 will be in the second half of this year.

Michael Glen
Equity Research Analyst, Raymond James

Can you just, in terms of the material that you're selling to First Solar, is all of that now coming out of Montreal, or is there still material coming out of other sites?

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

First Solar is currently served by a combination of Montreal and one of our German plant. It has always been the case, and it's gonna be the case for the rest of 2023. In 2024, you'll have a higher balance of the actual cell, the renewable energy that will be done from Montreal. Currently, this year, we are applying ourselves to crank up the required capacity for 2024 in Canada, in Montreal.

Michael Glen
Equity Research Analyst, Raymond James

Okay. Okay, thank you.

Operator

Thank you. Next question is from Nick Agostino of Laurentian Bank Securities. Please go ahead.

Nick Agostino
Managing Director, Head of Equity Research, and Diversified Technology Analyst, Laurentian Bank Securities

Yes. I just wanted to come back on that risk discussion. Given the fact that you guys are putting out 2 years' worth of guidance and the fact that space contracts, as you guys have alluded to in the past, are lumpy, what sort of terms are in those contracts that give you the comfort to be able to put out the 2-year guidance Specifically, is there risk that contracts could be pulled over the next 2 years that could impact your guidance, or are there terms in those contracts, take or pay type terms, and the guidance you're providing is with that consideration in mind? Just trying to understand the stability, specifically on those solar-- or sorry, space contracts.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Most of those contracts are on a fully committed basis. You have to remember two things. The solar industry, there's only three players outside China. There's nowhere else to go. This is the position as of December. The reality is we continue to put bids out there. The level of predictability is very high for 2023 and 2024.

Nick Agostino
Managing Director, Head of Equity Research, and Diversified Technology Analyst, Laurentian Bank Securities

Okay, thank you.

Operator

Thank you. At this time, gentlemen, we have no other questions. Please proceed with your closing remarks.

Richard Perron
CFO, 5N Plus

Well, we would like to thank you all for joining us today, and wish you all a good day.

Gervais Jacques
President and CEO, 5N Plus

Yeah, thank you very much, and, see you soon.

Operator

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, this does indeed conclude your conference call for today. Once again, thank you for attending. At this time, we ask that you please disconnect your lines.

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