Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the publication of 2025 annual financial statements conference call. I am Matilda, the conference call operator. I would like to remind you that all participants will be in listen-only mode, and the conference is being recorded. The presentation will be followed by a Q&A session. You can register for questions at any time by pressing star and one on your telephone. For operator assistance, please press star and zero. The conference must not be recorded for publication or broadcast. At this time, it's my pleasure to hand over to Manfred Stanek, CEO. Please go ahead.
Thank you very much. Welcome everyone to our results presentation for the full year 2025, and thank you for joining today's call. With me today is our CFO, Helmut Sorger. Helmut and I will guide you through the presentation, which is available on our website, and then open the floor for questions. As I have completed my first year with Semperit, I am pleased to update you on the progress we have made and the direction in which we are taking the company. When I joined last year, I saw a business with strong fundamentals, leading positions in niche elastomer markets, and a deep technological heritage, and a resilient business model with the potential to deliver significantly more. At the same time, the environment we operated in last year was anything but easy.
Geopolitical uncertainties, new tariffs, and the subdued economic growth created a cautious investment climate, especially early in the year. Despite this, we were convinced that this phase would not last and that Semperit would regain momentum as the year progressed. This is exactly what had happened. 2025 was not only a year of operational recovery, it was also a year in which we took time to sharpen our strategy, our strategic direction, and to lay the foundation for our next development steps. On this slide, you see that our strategic ambition is clear and measurable. To grow Semperit to more than EUR 1 billion in sales through profitable growth. This threshold is not just a symbolic milestone, it is a decisive driver of value creation. At that scale, our production capacity will be fully utilized.
Because our business model is highly sensitive to utilization, this matters greatly. Where do we want to play strategically? We are consistently focusing on industrial niches where we aim to be among the top three providers with our performance profile. How do we win? We win by combining technological excellence with high customer proximity, supported by a long track record in material and process innovation. We operate a resilient business model which benefits from high utilization in upcycles, while continued innovation supports sustainable margins, margin stability across the cycle. On this slide now you see our strategic levers. To unlock the full potential of these strengths, we have defined four strategic levers that guide our transformation, shown here on slide 3. First, growth. We are focusing deliberately on high-growth segments, where our know-how and expertise create clear value and differentiation. Second innovation.
This is our number one growth driver. Our aim is to protect and expand our technological edge through continuous advancements in materials, processes, and product solutions. I will give you a few examples of this in a moment. Third, performance. Across all sites, we are driving excellence, efficiency and operational discipline to lift profitability and ensure long-term competitiveness. This also includes a constant focus on improving our manufacturing footprint through targeted investments in automation, digitalization and modern production technologies. Fourth, people. Our global team is the most critical success factor. We foster an environment of diversity, respect and open dialogue because high-performing teams thrive in a culture that enables them. Let's move on to our strategy in action.
As we move to the next page here, we can translate our group-level strategy into concrete execution, and we have developed detailed strategic roadmaps for our two divisions and their businesses. Let's start with our SIA division, Semperit Industrial Applications. In our hose business, we are driving organic growth through a clear hose-only positioning. This focus allows us to avoid channel conflicts and to concentrate fully on our core competence, supplying standard and premium hydraulic and industrial hoses with leading price-quality performance. We are strengthening cost leadership, expanding our competitive product range, targeting technically demanding applications, and driving geographic expansion, particularly in North America. Our profiles business.
In our profiles business, we are reinforcing our global leadership in EPDM sealing solutions, and this business focuses on expanding its position in the European construction and industrial markets and also scaling in North America, broadening its customer base, reducing costs and complexity, and developing new materials and applications. Across our Engineered Applications businesses, which are the businesses Form, belting, and Liquid Silicone Rubber, we are scaling proven platforms, sharpening our focus on profitable niches and expanding globally. Our business Form is growing through high-margin product market combinations, portfolio simplification and a stronger operational hub. Our belting business prioritizes capacity utilization, stability across cycles, quality leadership and efficiency improvements across our manufacturing footprint.
Last but not least, our Liquid Silicone Rubber business focuses on above market growth in medical, sanitary and automotive applications, driven by our technological leadership, by automation, strong customer focus and expansion, in particular in North America. In summary, each business has a clear strategic roadmap that translates our group ambition into focused and executable priorities. Let's have a look at the mega trends, because our strategic direction is reinforced by global mega trends that continue to shape demand for our products. As shown on this slide, you see that urbanization, demographic shifts, mobility, climate adaptation, and electrification. These are long-term drivers that play directly into our strengths in material science and engineered elastomer solutions. We are partnering with industries to transform these trends into specific opportunities for Semperit in this dynamic and evolving world. Lastly, I want to reflect briefly on 2025.
It was a challenging year marked by a weak market environment, customer caution and Forex headwinds, but it was also a year in which Semperit demonstrated resilience. We executed rigorously on our priorities, advancing operational efficiencies with meaningful cost savings of another EUR 6 million, strengthening our commercial performance, maintaining strict financial discipline and progressing innovation initiatives. These actions supported a strong margin recovery in the second half of the year to 14.3%, as it is shown on the right side of the slide, culminating in full year operational EBITDA of EUR 83.6 million, which was above our guidance. We clearly built momentum as the year progressed. The fourth quarter was our strongest with a margin of 15.3%.
Our order book at the end of December was around 8% higher than the previous year, and our 12-month order intake was roughly in line with 2024. Toward the end of the year, we saw the usual seasonal volatility, but overall demand remained stable and supported our growth path. In summary, Semperit is moving forward with a clear strategy, a strengthened foundation and a team focused on disciplined execution. We are building a more innovative, more efficient and more customer-centric company positioned to grow profitably and create long-term value. With that, let's move on to the detailed results. Turning the page, you see the shift in revenue and EBITDA year-on-year for the two divisions, Semperit Industrial Applications and Semperit Engineered Applications, showing graphically the impact of some of the latest economic trends.
After Semperit Industrial and Engineered Applications muted first quarter, we now see a much more balanced split between revenue and EBITDA across our two divisions, approaching the distribution we saw last year. Revenue currently stands at 41% for SIA and 59% for SEA, while EBITDA is 55% for SIA and 45% for SEA. This demonstrates the recovery in SEA is well underway and that our portfolio is returning to a more balanced state. Let's turn to the Industrial Applications division at slide 8. We see the challenging market conditions persisted throughout the full year 2025, but we saw clear improvement over the course of the year, especially in the second half.
This graph shows a continuation in margin recovery since the final quarter of 2024 to 21.7% in the fourth quarter on the back of cost reduction, better capacity utilization and sales excellent initiatives. In our hoses business, demand remained subdued, particularly regarding the OEM segment. The expected OEM recovery in the second half did not materialize. However, destocking largely came to an end. Our direct customer business improved and OEMs now forecast a stable development for the coming quarters, broadly at the end, at the level of Q4. In profiles, demand remained weak due to low activity in the construction sector. Early economic indicators suggest stabilization, but we do not expect a meaningful recovery before 2027.
Overall, sales increased by 1.4% year-on-year to EUR 270.9 million, and EBITDA rose by 4% to EUR 52.8 million, with the margin improving to 19.5% after 19% in 2024. Turning to the next page, to Engineered Applications division. Following a slow start of the year, the division gained noticeable traction from the second quarter onward, as clearly illustrated in the chart on the top, showing the development of quarterly sales and margins. We can see a continuous improvement since Q1, although the weak start could not be fully offset towards the final months of the year. Sales totaled EUR 391.5 million, representing a 4.4% decline year-on-year, mainly driven by project delays in belting and Liquid Silicone Rubber tooling during Q1.
EBITDA amounted to EUR 42.5 million, with a margin of 10.9% compared to 12.1% in the previous year. Encouragingly, the situation has improved, the order situation has improved compared to last year. Let me briefly summarize the performance of our three business units, Form, Belting, and Liquid Silicone Rubber. Form delivered growth in both revenue and operating results, driven by strong demand in mountain applications, compression molded parts, and European handrails. The railway segment remained stable despite project delays, while China proved challenging. Order intake and order backlog were both well above the prior year. Belting started the year weak. From the second quarter onward, however, the business recovered. Full year order intake and the year-end backlog were roughly in line with the previous year. Liquid silicone rubber saw stable revenue and performance, operating performance after a softer first quarter.
Parts production developed solidly with growth in healthcare and food and baby applications, stable mobility demand and softer contraction, construction-related segments. Let's move to slide 10. As mentioned at the beginning of our call, innovation is a crucial growth driver for Semperit. Our focus is on how we adapt our materials, expertise and product portfolio to new market and customer requirements. If you recall, last year we presented three key innovations on this slide: our hybrid handrail, the rubber-coated steel rotors for the mining industry, and our track belts for snow groomers. All three products already contributed to our revenue in 2025. Today, we have brought another few innovations to share with you. I would like to start with the RFID Rubber Tag, which enables integration of electronic components into rubber materials without compromising durability or performance.
It allows efficient tracking and identification of rubber products, improving inventory management, operational efficiency, and lifecycle monitoring. A key advantage is its digital product passport conformity, providing access to essential product information through a unique electronic identifier, an important feature in light of upcoming sustainability and circular economy regulations. The tire industry will be among the first sectors affected by the EU Digital Product Passport requirements, which makes our Rubber Tag a highly relevant innovation for this market. Another interesting innovation is our reclaimed EPDM profile concept. We are turning vulcanized EPDM waste and scrap into secondary raw materials, enabling real circularity in our profile production. Using 30% regenerated rubber, our EPDM profiles achieve up to 30% reduction in product carbon footprint compared to standard profiles.
The concept is scalable, and we are now evaluating how to extend it beyond internal scrap to both industrial and eventually also to post-consumer recycling. Of course, this is crucial to reduce the CO2 neutrality of the construction industry. We have also brought an example of our high-tech Liquid Silicone Rubber tool making capabilities. You see here a protective mask that combines thermoplastic and silicone and features into a highly modular design suitable for applications ranging from clinical ventilation masks to defense-grade gas masks. Together with 3M, we developed the entire project from scratch. The material mix required a special process. Thermoplastic parts were produced separately and plasma treated to ensure reliable adhesion of the silicone components. Precise part temperature and challenging venting of the Liquid Silicone Rubber cavity were essential due to the complex geometry.
This is an example that shows what Liquid Silicone Rubber tool making made by Semperit stands for. Deep material and process expertise, precise engineering and strong partnership from concept to serial production. I hope you found those innovation examples interesting. With this, I would now like to hand it over to Helmut to take us through the financials.
Thank you very much Manfred and also a warm welcome to you all. Let me start with the financial highlights as usual. Here, let me start with our operating leverage. With a competitive overhead cost base and continued cost measures, we generated an additional EUR 6 million in savings over the year. This helped us protect profitability in a very volatile market environment. Second, you heard me say before, cash is king, and so our free cash flow was solid at EUR 37 million, supported by very disciplined CapEx management and targeted spending. This focus on investment quality continues to be a core part of our capital allocation framework. Third, we remained a strong balance sheet. Net financial debt to EBITDA stood at a mere 1.2, reflecting prudent leverage and a healthy cash position.
This gives us the flexibility to invest while maintaining financial resilience. Finally, we made tangible progress in our digital transformation with the successful first rollout of oneERP and several other digital initiatives. By this, we reached our first milestones towards a more integrated and data-driven operating model. Overall, 2025 was a year of financial discipline and strategic progress, laying a solid foundation for the years ahead. Given the developments in the last financial year, I would like to take the opportunity to take a closer look at how operating leverage played out during the year. A theme that has consistently run through our performance and one that also underpins our outlook. As shown on slide 12, starting with Q1, revenues declined 14%, which translated into 52% decrease in EBITDA. This clearly illustrates the sensitivity of our earnings to lower capacity utilization early in the year.
By contrast, Q4 shows the positive side of the same mechanism. Revenues increased a mere 5%, and EBITDA grew significantly faster at 31%. In other words, 2025 clearly underlined how our business model reacts to underutilization or utilization and our continuously reduced cost base. This operating leverage effect is central to our midterm ambition to reach higher and more stable profitabilities as volumes recover. Let me walk you through the key financial results for 2025 at slide 13. Revenues came in at EUR 662 million, a slight decline of 2.1% year-on-year. This reflects the very weak start in Q1, followed by a steady recovery from the second quarter onwards. EBITDA landed at EUR 79.5 million, down 6.4% with a margin at 12%.
Cost measures and the sequential improvement through the year helped to cushion the impact of lower volumes. Operating EBITDA was EUR 83.6 million compared to EUR 86.3 million last year. This figure includes EUR 4.1 million in project costs related to our digitalization program, oneERP. EBIT at EUR 25.6 million reflects around -EUR 4.4 million in impairments, primarily connected to the LSR customer base and the write-off of obsolete machinery. Earnings after tax were positive at EUR 0.4 million, driven by the operating development and roughly EUR 4.5 million of net currency effects. Free cash flow remained solid at EUR 37 million, supported by strict capital discipline. CapEx was significantly lower year on year at EUR 34.7 million, reflecting our disciplined investment approach.
Overall, 2025 shows a picture of resilience, cost discipline, and a business that strengthened over the course of the year. Turning the page and plotting the last twelve months industrial revenues against the industrial EBITDA margin, the underlying trend becomes even clearer. As the margin declined from 14.8% in Q4 2024 to 12.5% in Q2 2025, we now see a clear upward trend. Our ongoing focus on cost discipline, competitive overhead structure and efficient production helped stabilize profitability during the softer quarters and enabled a noticeable margin uplift as the demand improved toward year-end. When looking at the year-on-year EBITDA bridge on slide 15, prices, product mix, and volumes had a negative impact, but our cost reduction measures delivered EUR 6 million, significantly mitigating the volume decline.
Over the page, we present the constituent parts of our working capital management with an improvement compared to the situation a year ago. In total, trade working capital as a percentage of last twelve months revenues stood at 15%. This is broadly in line with the level we saw at the end of December 2024, but it represents a clear improvement both over the course of the year and compared to the beginning of 2024. The bridge chart on page 17 shows that our free cash flow of EUR 37 million comfortably covered both our growth-related CapEx of EUR 8.3 million and the dividend payment of EUR 10.3 million. Importantly, this development is linked to our very disciplined approach to CapEx throughout the year. Our growth CapEx was significantly below last year's level, which was appropriate given the uncertainty in the market environment.
At the same time, we intend to step up investments again this year in line with improving business conditions and our strategic priorities. As of the end of December, our net financial debt to EBITDA ratio remains unchanged at 1.2, a solid conservative level and fully in line with our financial framework. Let's take a look at our financial position, as of end of December. Cash and cash equivalents stood at EUR 94.8 million, a decrease of 25% compared to year-end 2024. This was primarily due to the repayment of a short-term loan with a nominal value of EUR 31 million at the end of July. As a result, our financial liabilities were reduced to EUR 194.4 million. Importantly, our EUR 100 million revolving credit facility remains undrawn, giving us additional financial flexibility.
As already mentioned, our leverage remains at a solid level and our equity ratio slightly increased to 48.5%, underscoring the continuing strength of our balance sheets. Finally, let me conclude with our capital allocation priorities, our cash usage framework. As you know from previous discussions, our approach follows a clear sequence. In 2025, our CapEx remained well below the 2024 level, reflecting the market environment and the elevated level of uncertainty we faced. This disciplined stance was deliberate and fully within our control. Maintenance CapEx amounted to EUR 26.4 million, and growth CapEx was EUR 8.3 million. At the same time, we intend to increase our investment activity again in 2026, in line with improving visibility and our strategic growth agenda.
Against this backdrop, and in light of our urge to strengthen the company's financial substance and support future growth, the management board decided not to propose a dividend for the full year 2025. This decision is a direct consequence of our strategic direction and the priorities we're setting at this point in time. If we want to develop Semperit towards the 1 billion mark, we need to maintain a strong financial base and have the reserves for targeted investments to drive growth. With this, I conclude my part of the presentation and would like to hand back to you, Manfred.
Thank you Helmut. Before I move to the conclusion and our outlook, I would also like to give you a brief overview of our ESG priorities last year and some of the initiatives that are currently ongoing. Our circularity agenda centers on recycling and material recovery, including more in-process recycling and the increased use of recycled and bio-based raw materials. With our reclaimed profiles innovation, we have already shared a strong example of how we translate circularity into tangible products, and we also have been very successful in increasing the share of recycled waste from 46%-55%. As an industrial company with around 4,000 employees, occupational safety remains one of our most important responsibilities, and here we achieved further progress.
Thanks to continued training and a clear action list across the organization, the incident rate in our company declined significantly once again. We also introduced a group-wide leadership operating system, which translate our values into daily behavior and reinforces an open speak-up culture across the organization. On the next slide, you see our ESG targets until 2030 and how we performed in 2025 across the three focus areas. What stands out is the further reduction in our incident rate and strong progress in waste reduction. Waste per product unit is down by 20%, which is not only a positive for the environment, but also has a direct impact on our bottom line. On energy efficiency, we are not there yet where we want to be, mainly due to lower utilization, but the initiatives we have in place will support improvement as volumes normalize. Let's move on.
Looking ahead to 2026, we expect the group to return to a solid growth trajectory. We anticipate a high single-digit% revenue growth supported by both divisions. The seasonal pattern should remain in place, a softer part into the year, followed by stronger momentum in the second half. In the division, Industrial Applications, we benefit from customers having now completed their inventory cleanup, and in profiles, we are seeing the first indications of market improvement. In Engineered Applications, performance varies by segment, mountain applications and handrail Europe continue to develop well, while some of our other activities remain influenced by longer product cycles and postponed customer projects. Our lean cost base, strict discipline and continuous innovation efforts position us well to capture outsized earnings upside, even if the overall market recovery is modest.
At the same time, several structural tailwinds support our midterm outlook, including the German infrastructure program, rising European defense spending and over time, reconstruction demand in Ukraine. For the year, we aim for operating EBITDA of around EUR 95 million, and we plan approximately EUR 50 million in CapEx with a clear focus on maintenance, stability and targeted strategic growth. This outlook assumes a continuation of the moderate economic recovery and easing geopolitical uncertainty as we move through the first half of the year. Last but not least, I always like to say that I don't only present this slide as a chief executive officer, but as always a shareholder of Semperit. Our investment case remains strong, market leadership, innovation and a resilient business model with high operating leverage. When demand rebounds, we are positioned to benefit disproportionately and our platform sets us up for sustainable growth.
Now Helmut and I are available for any questions you might have. Operator, if you would please start with the Q&A procedures.
We will now begin the question-and-answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their telephone. You'll hear a tone to confirm that you have entered the queue. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Questioners on the phone are requested to disable the loudspeaker mode while asking a question. Anyone who has a question may press star and one at this time. The first question comes from the line of Volker Bosse from Baader Bank. Please go ahead.
Thank you for taking my question. Volker Bosse, Baader Bank. I would have three questions. First is on the Iran war, which we currently see. I mean, we see oil price increases and volatility in general is rising. How do you look at these effects from a higher oil price on your business? Second question would be on your guidance, as you stated, to expect a moderate recovery of an economic momentum. Just for curiosity, why do you think so? Maybe in that context, you could also elaborate on how the U.S. tariffs impact your business directly and indirectly. The third question would be on dividend. I mean, as you said, no dividend for 2025, no dividend proposal. Perhaps one more word.
I mean, you already said why you decided to do so, but should we see this as a one-time effect, so to say, one year no dividend? I mean, perhaps some words on your general dividend policy going forward would be helpful. Thank you.
Okay thank you very much. I will take the first question and pass the second and the third question on to Helmut. First of all, of course, you know, an important question, the impact of the Iran war on oil prices, et cetera. Two things. First of all, you know, we are dealing with elastomer products which are derivatives from oil. Of course, the oil has an impact on our material cost base, usually with a delay of one to two months. But we are forecasting to be able to manage to pass cost increases on to our customers.
We have proven that we were able to do this in the past, especially in the years with a very strong inflation, and we are targeting to do the same thing right now. The bigger concern we have is on the end customer demand. If inflation rises again, you know, I think, you know, it would be reasonable to also expect a lower demand from the end customers, and this would of course impact us definitely more stronger than the cost increase. Again, cost increases we are planning and we are able to pass on to our customers. However, a weakened demand would be a bigger strategic operational risk for this year coming out of the conflict in the Middle East.
Volker let me continue here with your second question on the tariffs. We addressed that last year already. Let me start with a notion on, you know, whether the tariffs have more impact or the uncertainty on the tariffs. We saw in Q1 in 2025 that uncertainty in the project business hurt us because everybody or key customers in the project business waited until there's clarity about the tariffs, whether they procure from us from Europe or from China or Indian suppliers. When we reach certainty after Liberation Day in Q2, tariffs turn from an uncertainty factor into a cost factor. Just to give you some figures, our revenues in the U.S. is about EUR 80 million, and the predominant part of this is revenues generated from our two production facilities in the U.S.
Of course we're in other businesses that are kind of global, where we export into the U.S., and here the tariffs certainly play a role in. On the dividend, yes, I think we are clear. We want to continue the growth path. We want to turn Semperit into the growth path. As the CFO of the company, it might not surprise you that I prefer to have, you know, some money on the bank if opportunity turns up or if uncertainty increases. In 2025, we adhere to our dividend policy, which is basically 50% of group earnings after tax that we propose as a dividend to the AGM.
This will be our dividend policy going forward, and we have the ambition and also the guidance is to be earnings after tax positive in 2026. Volker, I hope that answers your question.
Yep. Thank you very much. Well done, and, yeah, all the best. Thank you.
Thank you.
The next question comes from the line of Marcus Remy from Oddo BHF. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Good afternoon gents. A few questions left from my side. Firstly, on the capacity utilization rate, can you break that down a bit into the individual business components at least kind of indications of brackets where you've been 20%-25%, so that we have a kind of a sense of how long you can sustain a rather low level of CapEx? Thank you.
With the CapEx, Marcus, we talked about that in Q3, and I think my answer has not changed. I think it's important that we are committed to growth CapEx, and we are for 2026, but I think it was still wise to save on CapEx in 2025 in order to safeguard our cash generation. You know, we don't let our asset base go to ruins. This is not the case. We do not save on safety relevant CapEx. All that happened, but we were a little cautious on growth CapEx. When it comes to capacity utilization.
Yeah that's a little bit mixed the capacity utilization, depending on our different businesses. For example, in our Liquid Silicone Rubber business unit, we had a full capacity utilization in our tool making. Starting with the second half of the year, we saw similar full capacity utilizations in, for example, in Mountain Applications. Of course, we have other businesses, like for example, in our belting business where we have the conveyor belts for mining, we had, throughout the entire year, a capacity utilization of maybe 60%-65%. Also in our profiles business, we are looking at a capacity utilization maybe of
70% round about.
Yeah 70% towards the end of the year. Much lower in the first half of the year. I cannot really give you one number. It depends business by business.
Yeah.
To cut a long story short, overall, I would say, you know, that we can do easily another EUR 200 million in revenues with the same installed capacity that we have right now. We still have a lot of room left for producing more.
Mm-hmm.
Okay. Maybe for the hoses, an indication for the utilization rate.
Of technical capacity, about 70%. Of course, you know, we use the capacity as needed, adapting shifts and shift patterns, yeah?
Sure.
Ample is always the wrong word to use, but there's still capacity reserves. Don't forget, we have our DH5, where we have an additional 24 million meters that we can ramp, that we will ramp up over the next couple of years.
Additionally, we saw some bottlenecks in our hose business last year. For example, as a result of the flooding in Thailand, our factory was at a standstill there for a couple of weeks. There were also some artificial, so to say, bottlenecks, you know, that we usually don't have.
Okay. Thank you. One bit of a bookkeeping question. In the fourth quarter, you apparently had some extra other operating income. Was that the insurance claim from the flooding?
Yes. There was about EUR 1.9 million insurance from the flooding just pertaining to, that's a part pertaining to 2025. Of course, don't forget, Marcus, we have the full year now of charges to our tenant HARPS at our.
Yeah.
Site in Wimpassing, where we pass on energy expenses, infrastructure expenses that goes into their income. In the prior year, we had the sale of a site in there. All in all, it's up. You're right about that. It's a Q4 impact, but the HARPS impact will be ongoing until end of 2028. Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. Thank you. The final question would be on the ERP costs. How long will that carry on? 2026 is clear. Is that something that goes beyond 2027?
Yes, 2028 will be part of it, and then end of 2028 will be done.
Okay. Thank you.
Mm-hmm.
As a reminder, if you wish to register for a question, please press star and one on your telephone. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question. I would now like to turn the conference back over to Mr. Stanek for any closing remarks.
Okay. Well thank you very much. Thank you for your time and participation, and of course, we'll remain available for any questions or comments or discussions you might have. Please do not hesitate to reach out to us, and we will speak again in this circuit the latest when we present our Q1 results on May 13th. Thank you very much.
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