Thanks, everyone. We're happy to have once again the team from Cummins, who's been great and loyal supporters to this conference over the years. So thank you guys, as always, for being here. Chris Clulow from IR to the far right, and Jeff Wiltrout, who is VP of the, I guess, the Strategy Group at Cummins, which probably keeps it quite busy.
Not been boring the last couple of years.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. Well, good. We'll just get right into Q&A, and if anyone has any questions along the way, just don't be bashful, and just make sure I see you. So Chris, maybe we can start, or whoever, Jeff. Looking ahead, I guess, in a couple of months, we'll have investor days, typically every two years. Last one, a lot of focus. The topic du jour around the whole new power and battery electric solutions, hydrogen, all along those lines. Some of the regulatory environment, interest rate environment, is quite a bit different than what it was back then. But just maybe a sneak peek into what investors should be expecting in terms of just high-level themes at the upcoming Investor Day.
Sure. Why don't you start, Jeff?
Yeah, I'll start, and then you can add, Chris. So obviously, what we'll intend to do and excited to do is talk a little bit about our perspective around the technology transition as we look a little longer term at what that means for us. I think we've tried to be pretty consistent in saying that the things that need to come together to drive towards some of these advanced solutions are the combination of infrastructure and economic and operational viability and those pieces. And I think we've also been pretty consistent in saying is in our end-use markets, which are generally a little bit more hard to debate in several instances, it's going to be a long, in some cases, non-linear road. And I think the last couple of years have proven that out.
So we'll, of course, talk a little bit, May, around the very practical implications for us as it relates to our business in Accelera, what it means in terms of some of the top-line targets. But fundamentally, we remain happy with our strategic positioning to be investing at the right time to win across the various phases of this transition, near-term, medium-term, and long-term, and be able to prove both strong strategic positioning as well as strong financial performance along every single one of those phases. And so we think the last couple of years have largely proven that the first chapter of that has gone pretty well for us. And so we're excited to talk a little bit more about the positioning and the long-term adoption. Then, of course, I'll obviously update a little bit more on some of the nearer-term financial picture as well.
So I don't know if you want to speak to that.
Yeah. I think that as we talked in 2022, we talked about where it looked in 2030. We were answering the question where everybody thought the transition was happening essentially immediately.
And it was like we got the melting ice cube analogy for Cummins. It was like by 2030, it's our terminal value, which was clearly not the case. So I think we answered that question when we went through. And now we want to kind of also fill it in on what does that mean financially? What's our view and how our margins progress over the next few years? And I think that's the key message we want to get out to people. Yeah, we're managing through the transition, and this is how we win, essentially.
Yeah. I mean, from my perspective, as I communicated, I think anything that can help to kind of distill the message and the thesis around Cummins so it isn't a 12-part discussion around this market needs to do that, and etc. So something.
Yeah. Over the course of our careers, the complexity of our company has just skyrocketed. So we just need to distill that into what's the thesis.
Yeah. Just from a hydrogen perspective, for that industry to scale, it needs a favorable policy as well as financing backdrop. You can argue that in both cases. That is less the case today. As you look at least what the public market valuations for some of these fuel cell operators and hydrogen companies suggest, that these challenges seem to be quite significant. I mean, how does that impact your decision? I mean, one could argue you could take a few days of free cash flow from Cummins and acquire some of these assets. Or does that say, "Hey, maybe we need to scale back our rate of or pace of investment because the market's telling us that the outlook is a little bit more challenged"?
Yeah. So I mean, I think hydrogen as an example across this whole set of technology solutions headed towards decarbonization, like I said, which is it does need the regulatory drivers to make the economics work. It needs scale positions to start driving the unit economics to a viable place. And we are in the very early stages of that coming together. So what that means for us is a lot of where we spend our strategic energy is to make sure we now have the technology foundations in place. We do a lot of our inorganic activity the last several years. Now it's about pacing those investments to make sure we've got the right technology at the right time across the cross-section of markets we serve.
Specifically, as it relates to hydrogen, I think we view that still as very much a strong, long-term, structural place we want to be. And we want to be a global market leader, and we intend to invest to support that. But that's very much a 10, 15, 20-year view. So year and year out, exactly how we sequence and pace those investments, we, of course, monitor very closely. But we want to be in it for the long term. We intend to win. It's a really attractive growth space for us because it does open up new markets, new customers that haven't been in our traditional set of applications. And then we do, of course, we evaluate when we do come across some of these companies that need cash flow, need capital. We pretty consistently have been evaluating those.
But fundamentally, it has to be materially and meaningfully additive to our technology portfolio for that to make economic sense because we do now feel like we've got a lot of those foundational elements in place. So we can be a bit more selective around adding to that portfolio when the time's right.
Got it. And from a battery electric standpoint, where is Cummins along the path of having options available for the truck OEMs as we look ahead to emission standards in 2027 and then 2030? And again, it's a long ways out. But how are you progressing along those timelines?
Yeah. We feel comfortable around that. So we're in batteries today. We sell to Blue Bird and other customers with our current offering. We've got a next-generation set of battery packs coming out in the next year or two to continue to solidify that nearer-term position as we're getting some of the early adoption of these battery solutions in bus applications and some of the medium-duty truck applications. For us, of course, one of the big steps we've taken and announced is our pursuit of the joint venture with Daimler and PACCAR, EVE to open a battery cell plant.
We do believe for our commercial and industrial applications that being on the front foot in there with some of our long-term strategic partners to move and be prepared to have the right chemistry for those commercial and industrial applications as we get into higher adoption levels in the back end of this decade is going to be pretty important. And that's why we dove into that. So we feel like we're, again, working to sequence these effectively. We are in the business, the battery business, right now. We'll have our next-generation packs coming in the next couple of years. And we think the medium-term bet around the cell chemistry is going to be a really critical piece for us to deepen that positioning and set us up for where we're going to see the most meaningful kind of scale adoption, which is when we head into 2030 and beyond.
That's really what we're making sure we're teed up to be well-positioned for.
For the Accelera business, the losses look to remain at pretty elevated levels in 2024. I mean, at one point, there was the notion that maybe you can get to EBITDA break even by 2027. Is it just maybe that's too tough of a road to hoe at this point, or is that still?
That's still a target. No, that's still the focus. I think it's really important for that business. And we're making the progress in terms of driving better gross margin. I think gross margin is a key piece of how we're looking at it, both in electrolyzers and then the e-Mobility, which is battery electric space primarily now. And then we're going to make choices. As an example, and Jeff alluded to it, it's like if the market's not there now, what you might back off on investment to get it. But I think it's really important for us to make strides in that direction. And even in 2024, yeah, the numbers are we're starting to cut the losses. We kind of have a little bit of a headwind because with the new JV that comes in with some losses as well, about $25 million. So we're making headway down there.
We still have targeted 2027 break even.
Got it. Okay. Maybe we can dig into some of the segments, starting with Engine. Certainly, one of the areas of focus for investors, I mean, you look at that business, and obviously, we understand the investments that are ongoing as we're talking about. But relative to some of the peers and certainly some of your larger OEM customers, I mean, the margin differential is starting to widen out. Maybe talk us through how much of that is more maybe structural in nature versus you had the parts go against you, or there were some factors that maybe get alleviated with some help from the macro. Maybe you just talk to.
Yeah. Sure. Yeah, we get this question a lot because the engine business is kind of obviously core to the historic nature of the company. But we are making progress in that space. We are in a heavy investment period. And that's the biggest driver. R&D, we're getting ready to launch our fuel-agnostic engines, actually beginning later this year with a natural gas 15-liter, but really for EPA '27. And that's three entire platform developments. These are the only two every 15, 20, and 25 years. And we're doing three at once. And so that does take a lot of dollars up. That's been a headwind for us. But it's just setting us up so well for the future. So it's worth the investment there.
But that's one of the things we're going to paint the picture more as we come back in May in Analyst Day is really talking about as we get through this investment bubble, I kind of call it. This year in 2024, we'll have similar R&D investment as last year. And then it starts to taper off, and it gets you more normalized levels. At the same time, as we've talked before, is we take pricing more of a long-term nature. We'll take just small bites all the way over time. We don't give it back. It just kind of continues to rise up. And so we're looking to make that expansion in the engine business margin. But the last couple of years, that's really been the case. We got to buckle down and invest, get ready for the future.
So the pricing will be kind of preemptive in terms of in advance of these offerings, or how does that work?
Yeah. So we tend to continue to even in 2024, we're working our pricing upward a little bit beyond with some of the long-term agreements. We've done that because of inflationary pressures. We've done it the last three years. And then we take maybe a little bit more pricing actions and try to broaden the margins with the value we bring with the new emissions. And that's whether it's in the diesel products or it's in natural gas and others. It's an opportunity for us as we're adding content to also add to margin. So I think that's the view is every time we get through an emission cycle, we're adding a lot of value for the OEMs. And so we price for it.
Then thinking ahead to the upcoming. I mean, the jury's out in terms of how meaningful it could be. But I think most would expect fairly sizable pre-buy just as the, on a percentage basis, it looks to be the largest percentage increase or even bigger than 2006 if there's a notion that maybe carrier profitability has improved by then. So the stars could be aligned such that the willingness and the ability from the fleets to buy ahead of that emission cycle. So as the largest supplier from an engine perspective into that market, are you starting to field conversations with customers in terms of like, "Look, we want to make sure those slots are available"? Or is it? I'm sure each customer's probably different in terms of how they're thinking about it.
Yeah. I think I would say in my 20 years in Cummins, this is the earliest we've been talking about a pre-buy. It's like three years in advance of the engines coming out or some will launch in 2026. But I do think there's enough pressure there. We think 2025 will drive some and some in 2026 where you'll have some volumes. But also, the key thing is, historically speaking, the industry would just go through these big waves and ramp way up the year before an emission cycle. The supply chain's just not there for it. I mean, I think we feel confident in our ability to meet whatever level of demand. But I don't see the whole industry going up to 400,000 units in heavy-duty truck as an example just to meet that certain because suppliers don't want to make an investment for 1 year.
So I think it's going to—that's kind of the viewpoint we get from the customers is that we need to make sure we're buying along so that we can get the product in because they don't expect the whole industry to ramp. Just take a one year ramp up to meet that.
Maybe Jamestown has the ability within its four walls to do that. Maybe your supply base is more the question.
Yeah. I think we feel pretty confident in our supply base. But I think when I'm talking about the overall industry supply base, it's still got some constraints around it. Adding a lot of capacity there doesn't seem as likely just for a one-year bump because I think one, I guess, benefit that we've seen going through this prolonged cycle is steadier builds with a lower cycle is best for everybody in the industry. So I think that's what people are trying to stick to as much as possible and control where they can.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that seems to be what your customers progressing along in terms of when the market was tighter, that those per-day build rates didn't really, maybe the supply chain was the excuse or what. But they haven't taken the advantage that maybe they would have in the past. Exactly.
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. There's no one stepping out and goes, "Let's try to grab a bunch of shares by doing this because it just hurts in the long run.
Yeah. More kind of near-term, I guess, going back to one of the headwinds on profitability for that engine or for the Engine segment last year was just how the parts business fell off. What are you seeing there in terms of presumably the destocking effect that hit you in the back half of the year? Are we kind of through that, or what's the outlook for 2024 in terms of?
Yeah. We think by the end of last year, we were basically through on the On-Highway side, through the destock of the on the aftermarket side. There's a little bit of a hangover in Power Systems, but that's largely through as well. So we go more to market levels because everybody now that we could supply within a couple of days versus longer lead times, people could take out all their safety stocks. And that drove the destock. But that's largely complete. And we should be reverting back to norm this year. And we expect it to be much steadier across the quarters this year, whereas last year was a very high first half and destocked second half. It'll probably just even out a bit.
Yeah. Typically, when you think of that business, though, when trucker profitability is under pressure, then they pull back. Maybe the miles are down. Maybe they start extending their just overhaul cycles, etc. But it doesn't sound like that's a meaningful factor.
Not so much. I mean, there is some impact to economics. But the cumulative population more than offsets that usually because we just keep have so many engines out in the field, and they last quite a long time. So that effect tends to keep you continued growing at a low-digit pace.
Got it. Maybe switching gears to a very important driver for the engine business from a geographic perspective is China, obviously, because of how it flows through largely from a JV income. So it can flatter the incrementals or decrementals. What's the latest in terms of what you're hearing from on- and off-highway customers as far as China specifically?
Yeah. It's pretty slow and steady, I think, is the way to say it, right, which is we haven't seen any significant impacts from any limited stimulus that's been done or any strong signaling that there will be more. So we do think there will be some growth, right, but it'll be pretty modest. It's come off of and above where we got to, which is some pretty low levels in 2022. But it's much more incremental, right? And so kind of big swings in growth, we're not seeing. Obviously, on the construction side, the property segment remains slow, not seeing much activity there to speak of. And so we're quite frankly waiting for what may be the next set of activities that really drive some meaningful change in the trajectory in China. And so far, we haven't seen much.
So we're looking for signals that would suggest we're heading in a different direction. But right now, it's more incremental. Yeah. I think the one positive we're taking from it is through this lower cycle that we've gone through, we've been able to gain share both on highway and off highway. We've been kind of picking up shares just a couple of points at a time. And we're feeling better and better because it's just more and more difficult for some of the local companies to compete when you have these more stringent emissions. So I think that's helped us.
On the On-Highway side, is natural gas takes more of the share, presumably that plays into Cummins' hands, I'm guessing, or?
It does to some degree. I think we went launched the product really in late 2021 and up to about 20% share of the market now. It's really strong growth. The biggest competitor there is Weichai. So it does help us make some inroads with both our joint venture partners in Foton and Dongfeng but some other customers as well where we're picking up share with them. So that's an area where we're focused on, well, the market seems relatively steady. We'll be focusing on capacity to build natural gas because the spread in the commodity, the fuel cost, looks like it's going to be there for quite a while.
Got it. Maybe we can focus on the Components business. To your point earlier, I mean, you're seeing the spread used to be Engines was here and Components and Distribution were here. And I mean, they're starting to narrow the gap quite a bit from a profit dollars perspective, which is nice. But just maybe update us on the Meritor integration just in terms of how you're progressing on integrating that synergy capture. And then we can start with that.
Yeah. Yeah. We've been really happy with the progress with our acquisition of Meritor both strategically in terms of how it's set up to continue to diversify our earnings stream and also to add more to that set of technology foundations I alluded to on the EX side in particular but then also financially, right? A big part of that was as we think about discipline growth, finding companies that have a growth opportunity, have real synergy value capture opportunities, and generate cash flow, right? That's a good combination that we like. So we feel comfortable. On the synergy value capture side, we left the year at a little over 60% of kind of hitting our three-year target in terms of run-rate synergy. So we feel quite comfortable around that and have our next set of plans that we'll deliver in 2024.
We feel very much like we're ahead of schedule in terms of getting to where we need to be on the value capture to make sure that the financial story matches the strategic story on our acquisition of Meritor.
Can that business over time get to a Components average margin, or is that?
We're certainly going to do everything we can to try. There are obviously some different competitive dynamics and otherwise. But we have now, I think even the profitability performance last year was high in Meritor's recent history, certainly the last 10 or 15 years. So we have extended the margin profile of that business. We'll continue to improve with exactly the dynamics as you get to the various components and pieces of that Components business unit portfolio between turbochargers and aftertreatment and the like. Whether or not it fully gets to equivalent to all those is tough to tell specifically. But we're going to get it as close as we possibly can.
Yeah. It's going back quite a few years ago. But from my coverage of WABCO, I remember this whole dynamic of discs displacing drum brakes. And Meritor had a reasonably strong footprint there. Where are we in terms of that adoption rate? And I know there was a push not just on the first-fit side but also penetrating the aftermarket side. What are you on that?
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Tough to get perfect data. But roughly, in 2023, the best numbers we have would suggest that on a first-fit basis, kind of the split between drum and air disc brakes in North America Class 8 was about 50/50. If you get into the smaller applications, the medium-duty stuff, it's still far lower penetration of the Disc Brake technology. As you then step back and look at the kind of installed base, it's such that it's kind of still 85+% drum relative to the disc brake that's growing. And so we're pretty excited about our potential to kind of win some share on the air disc brake side, both on the first-fit side and then as that continues to be a more significant piece of the installed base puzzle, that we have an opportunity to win some business there as well.
Our forecast suggests that it'll go from 50 up to pretty linear ongoing progress towards 55- 60 in that type of range over the coming years. It'll stay there. Then, like I said, we're working very hard to make sure we're appropriately positioned on that air disc side to make sure we're winning market share in ways similar to what we've been able to do on the drum brake side. It's a pretty attractive potential growth opportunity for that business we're excited about.
Yeah. Which it's primarily still a North American-dominated business, right, Meritor in total?
Yeah. The total business, yeah, North America is the biggest piece. They have business in Europe and South America, Brazil, in China, and India. So not quite as balanced as the overall Cummins picture. But they do have presences there and obviously with some of the same customers we have. The growth potential there for us is one where we continue to work to introduce that portfolio into some of our partnerships, into some of our deeper relationships. We do think there's some growth opportunity there. We think that's going to be probably a longer-term, kind of a medium-term opportunity for us to really start to deliver and unlock that. So quite frankly, that doesn't play a really significant part of that kind of three-year synergy value capture target we modeled. Some of that stuff just has a longer gestation period to really start to unlock meaningful revenue growth opportunities.
It is there but not working from a base of zero. It takes a little bit of time to get that integrated more globally.
Good. Take a break here. Does anyone have any questions from the audience? Not one over here.
Yeah. Maybe we can go back to the Accelera business. I was thinking, could you give a little bit more color on how you guys are planning to convert the backlog into revenues, especially since you guys got the plant in Minnesota?
Yeah. I can start on that and just jump in. So yeah, the backlog is for the electrolyzer business, about over $500 million. And just to be clear, that backlog is firm orders that we're working on. It is taking longer to get these implemented. This is very fledgling stages of the industry. So I think it has taken some time to move this along. The early rule of thumb was it's from backlog to revenue is about 12-18 months. As the projects get bigger and more complex, that's getting more like 18-24. So I think we're working through that. And I think it is we just like the whole industry going through some growing pains. But I think we still see a really good outlook for the demand. But it has some dependencies on regulatory and otherwise. Anything else you'd add?
No. No. The only thing I would add is I do think this dynamic of kind of the regulatory and subsidy-based underpinnings of some of this early-stage adoption, not just in hydrogen across several of these things, is, of course, a real driver that we watch very closely. And so that will have an impact, certainly this decade, on the pace of what we see in terms of the revenue and adoption curve.
I was going to say, right, but are there accounting work on that, Chris? Is that percentage of completion, or is it?
You have pieces when you deliver it, and then you have it on installation. So it's kind of split up. Yeah. It's not quite percentage of completion. Sorry to get good in my old corporate controller hat on. But no, here it is.
I was going to call you out on that. On the Components, one of the other somewhat recent investments on the Eaton side, there was pretty big growth last year in that AMT. Where are we in terms of taking that? I mean, there was an emphasis to make that more of a global approach. Where are you in terms of that?
Yeah. I think the biggest piece of headway is probably in China where that has continued to uptake. And even when we made that kind of joint venture with Eaton, China wasn't really much in the business case because the feedback at that point in time is they'll never adopt it. And then as they became introduced to it, it's now kind of taken off and growing at a very, very good clip. It's obviously stalled out a bit with the market itself. But we still see really good penetration on the AMT side.
Got it. Okay. We can transition to power systems, one that's seen a nice margin uptick recently, obviously. Some of the higher-margin businesses within that have been strong. But maybe talk us through, I know you've made some cost-saving moves within that. So talk us through kind of the margin outlook there. And I think you're expecting further increase in 2024.
Yeah. We're really happy. We're happy to talk at all about power systems because for a long time, it was just kind of middling margins, kind of steady but not really all that exciting. We didn't get many questions on it. But now we've really turned the corner on it. We've done some focused efforts on margin improvement. Those are still ongoing. I'm working on that, basically trying to raise the floor of the margin and take some structural costs out. What we found over time is just power systems is the latest example of that. If we put a focused effort on a piece of the business, that's when you can take costs out permanently versus more widespread actions. So that's what we're working on now.
We've been able to continue to drive pricing, adding more value in there, and particularly in the power generation side where those margins tended, going backward, to lag behind in the industrial margins, at least on the first-fit side because they don't generate as much aftermarket. So now we've raised those up to a much more comparable level. So that has really helped a deal. And we're still in progress making really the growth outlooks for that business are very strong, particularly on power generation. And I think we're seeing the margin outlook continue to improve. So we're really happy with the progression there.
Yeah. I was reading something coming down here yesterday. It was a blurb from an electrical distributor. And it was a lead time, a list of their key products. And it was electrical distribution gear, so all the different down to circuit breakers. But then it said 1.5 Megawatt and above generators. And pre-COVID, it was 40-52 weeks. Now, I think it's 110 weeks or something. I mean, I'd imagine that again, back to your point about it's probably a good pricing backdrop when supply is falling that far behind demand.
Very much so. Yeah. And I guess the data center has become a bigger and bigger piece of that. And now it's inflecting upward from already a very strong position that's helping us as well. So that's a place where we've talked about we're looking to add capacity in that space as well because we get ranges from the big data center customers. And at the low end of their range is really strong growth. At the high end of their range is astronomical growth. So I think we'll have to make the choice on where we invest. But I think there's some good growth outlook there.
Yeah. Obviously, your big competitor in that space is doing the same thing, I guess. Is that the power gen? Historically, you even had a pretty strong footprint in China as well within the data center market. I'm guessing it's very much a global business just given the spending patterns by the big.
Definitely is. Yeah. I think we've been able to establish positions, yeah, all over the world, right, in the larger gen sets that back up these data centers, including with some of the big customers in China, in India, and elsewhere on the globe. So that has turned into quite a success story with, obviously, a lot here in North America. But we continue to see, obviously, pretty similar underlying structural trends that are driving the expansion and growth of the data center market. And it is not exclusively a North America story. So it's turned into a really strong, solid, growing business for us.
But to your point earlier, Chris, just like if you had a backup generator for this hotel, I mean, it's designed to not operate, right? And to your point, there's not a whole lot of typically a lot of parts and service that comes with that. But because of the nature of the complexity of the design, is it a better margin product than your traditional standby? Or is it?
Yeah. The first-fit margin, the initial sale margin, is strong and much stronger than it was. It's more comparable to industrial. But you're right. It doesn't generate a lot of parts. Ideally, it doesn't get run very often other than testing. There is service. There are service events they want to make because these are critical pieces of equipment for them just in case things go down. So I think there's probably a little bit more on the service side just for upkeep that they make sure it's going to work.
Yeah. Yeah. We do see some margin in our Distribution but mainly in the installation and the commissioning and then some of the ongoing just service and maintenance. So it is not a parts consumer like the mining business and some of the highway trucks business. But it does have a nice complement to our channel or sales and service network that drives revenue and margin despite the fact that it's not consuming a massive amount of parts.
Yeah. Just what you touched on within industrial mining being a big piece, you lost, I think, that BELAZ at one point was almost half of that business, I think. And I'm guessing that's close to zero now.
0. Yeah. 0.
With that or despite that, where is the business in terms of what you're modeling for 2024?
Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty remarkable over the last couple of years when you take out a very large customer like BELAZ, take out the Russian market and the China market, not consuming as much commodity as it was, and the market is still very strong for mining. I think it's still at a strong level. Over the last couple of months, for 2024, it keeps firming up. So we're feeling more and more bullish about 2024. And the long-term outlook looks good. We have great partners. And it seems like the gap where BELAZ was selling is filling in outside, of course, Russia and those areas. But where they sold internationally, it seems like others have filled that gap. And that we're participating well with them.
Do you think some of that is a function of the miners that are saying, "Well, we've committed," or at least the big public miners committing to these GHG targets in a couple of years, that rather than committing to a 20-year diesel-powered new mine truck, we'll do an overhaul to kind of band-aid it and extend the life? Or i.e., are you seeing more of the demand kind of from a rebuild perspective than a unit? Or is it tend to slice that?
Pretty mixed. I mean, these have always been a high level of parts consumers. The mining trucks are the top in terms of parts consumers. They rebuild them usually four times. So about a 4x initial sale in parts. And that's kind of continuing. We haven't seen much there. I mean, you hear more and more about efforts as they are trying to make the mining more green. But it's not making a huge inroads right now. Just from my perspective, you've seen it.
I was going to say something. It's not obvious that what we're saying is just merely trying to buy the next kind of 3, 4, 5 years just to see it to whatever the next solution is. They absolutely are and understandably so working to test various alternatives, hybrid solutions, looking into the hydrogen solutions, fuel cells, and things like that. So that's very much a set of activities but still remains pretty nascent and, again, comes with a pretty significant amount of infrastructure and operational and economic challenges to really pull off at scale. And these are remote, pretty nasty operating environments that is not an easy problem to solve on that front. So I think it's more a reflection of just the general mining cycle that continues to be quite strong, more so than an extension of diesel for only so long.
A couple of minutes left here. Maybe a few on Distribution, which has, again, also had one of the nice, consistent marches higher from a profitability perspective. A lot of that was done on the heels of the consolidation and the reorg in North America. What's kind of the next step in terms of taking, presumably, marching those margins higher?
Yeah. I think we've been really happy with the trajectory of those margins. What I mentioned earlier, the targeted, focused margin improvement efforts, that was the first step, was in North America distribution and bumped a couple of hundred basis points. Really strong improvement there. There's some learnings that we can take from that that we can take internationally. But in the end, I think there is a finite level for a distribution business. I mean, we could very easily take some profitability from our product businesses and put it to Distribution. But it balances out. So I think it's probably at a pretty good step. I don't know if you'd have a different view.
No. That's right. I mean, I think what we're continuing to look at is a couple of things, where the Distribution business just can continue to reinforce our medium to longer-term strategic positioning as we go through this energy transition. It's not an easy thing to replicate the sales and service network we've built and enjoy. And so how do we use that to maximum advantage? How do we continue to drive additional services and profitability of those services? How do we get more efficient at delivering them? And again, we break this down. We think about this in the form of kind of what I'll call in-shop where we have literally bricks and mortar distribution sites around where we want to continue to be.
That, for us, is largely about how do we deliver services more efficiently because we do get a lot of vocational trucks, fire trucks, and garbage trucks, and things like that that drive a nice business for us and we can do so profitably. And then the other one is remote sites where we actually go out and our servicing equipment out in the field, some of these remote mining locations and other things like that that we think we can continue to use the digital tools to get smarter around how, when, where we deliver value to the customers and do so more profitably. So a lot of that stuff adds up to the story of the Distribution business, especially from a growth and profitability one, is a lot of smaller, more incremental things to continue to build on rather than one or two really big things, right?
It's about continuing to push on incrementally being more efficient, adding more content, doing more services, and underpinning our long-term strategic positioning with the customers.
But to the extent, I mean, services being a focus, I mean, you're probably walking a really fine line there, right, because you potentially encroach upon the work that your OEM dealers are doing, right?
That's right. And I think there can come times where we get some conflict and some tension. But by and large, I think we've all understood kind of where's the right place for us to add value, where less so, and how do we manage that. So I view that a little less as, "You're right. We do have to be cognizant of it and thoughtful about that." But I still think there is opportunity for us to continue to grow and add to that in a way that doesn't come totally and fully at the expense of our direct OEM customers and partners, which, of course, we would want to do quite thoughtfully.
Yeah. Chris, I shouldn't have waited this long. Just the minute left. Just a few things coming about in the last week with the share exchange, debt offering, roll that together. And then the thoughts around or the plans for capital returns in 2024. I don't think that was as clear coming off the call.
Yeah. Yeah. We certainly had an eventful Wednesday last week. So I think we're kind of digesting that. All the Atmus transactions progressing should be concluding middle of March. And then we're balancing that out with the debt offering, paying down some of the existing debt, balancing that out, and then saying, "Okay. What does it mean for the capital allocation for the future?" So that's more what we'll share in our A nalyst Days, not only just for the plan for the rest of the year but planning moving forward because, again, as we widen out the margins and get through this investment bubble, particularly in the engine business, the cash generation's quite robust and looking at continued strong returns to investors.
Excellent. Good stuff, guys. Thank you.
Thanks, Tim.
Thanks. Thank you.