Working through both with customers on customer deposits, customer milestone payments, is there anything we can do to incentivize bringing some of that cash in? Anything that we can do there. We announced that we sold our 2023 production tax credits a few weeks ago. We're working on selling Q1 of 2024. Again, that's some additional cash at a 10% discount, you know, bring that capital in. On the other side, on cash outflows, continuing to work with vendors on payment terms and payment plans in order to try to manage cash. We talked about the last earnings call, you know, if we have the ability to maybe slow down production for a little while, given that every unit we produce is at negative margin today, you know, how do we work with customers on key delivery dates in order to conserve cash?
So all of those efforts are still ongoing, just like we talked about last time. And then on the flip side, continuing to work with the DOE and, you know, how do we get to long-term strategic financing to fund expansion? And if there's a gap in there, looking at all the options available to us in order to bridge that gap. So-
Sure
... I mean, we're just continuing to work through that.
Yep, and, maybe just a quick refresher on what the cadence of CapEx looks like, maybe over this quarter, you know, the second quarter and the third quarter. What's contingent on timing of DOE? What's not?
So we have paid for the vast majority of the first line-
Mm-hmm
... already. There is still some payments, milestone payments, that are due, either at SAT or some period of time after SAT.
Mm.
There's also tooling that we're continuing to pay for.
Mm.
I mean, there's other components to it. Majority of the CapEx for line one has already been spent.
Mm
... and paid, but there is some remaining going into Q3.
Okay.
And what I would say as you look beyond Q3, so we have further automation of bipolar manufacturing, which will happen back end of the year.
Mm-hmm.
And then that sets you up to be able to then start thinking about implementation of the second line thereafter.
Okay. Uh-
That piece-
Yeah
... is, I think, what you're referring to.
That's the contingent, yeah.
Yeah. So, we gotta get line one up and running-
Yeah, yeah
... for a couple reasons. One, we don't wanna build line two if we don't have the customer demand for it.
Sure.
It's customer demand and funding that would dictate the timing of line two. The good news is, it takes us about six months to stand up a second line, and the typical sales cycle is more like 12.
Mm-hmm.
So, you know, I think we've got some time to align those two schedules-
Sure
... as we move forward.
As you think about your OpEx versus the incremental CapEx of line two, we've always talked about maximizing a line, meaning a third shift. How do you feel about the availability of labor and a third shift labor force versus getting the second line up?
We'll do third shift before-
Sure
... we do. Yeah, we'll, we'll maximize the assets we have before adding another line capacity and spending the money.
Sure
... to do that. Look, you know, the you know, the thing that we're where we are right now, you know, we had talked about, again, you brought this up, but you go back to December 12th and the strategic outlook. We had talked about was doing a cutover to a lower cost product.
Mm-hmm.
You know, you've seen some of the things that have come out as far as taking cost out, and then at the same time, you know, we're doing the switchover of that in manufacturing. So that gives us a little bit of a lull of what's happening on the shop floor. So we're training everybody right now on how to run the new line. But it's not so much how to run the new line. This goes down to, how do you flow material from the warehouse onto the line? How do you flow batteries into the building where you do containerization? So, the day the line goes on, we've kind of run enough practices where everybody knows what their job is and plays their position.
To add people to that, like, you know, we've been able to flex the workforce as we've had peaks and demands in capacity, and we'll just have to bring people on and train them as we go to get up to speed on that.
Sure. Perfect. So we've discussed quite a bit over, particularly, like, the last 6-9 months, what the customer mix starts looking like-
Yeah
... as we move into 2025, 2026, the early days of balancing utilities versus some of the quicker but smaller... I actually want to ask about that a little bit differently.
Sure.
How important is it to you, over the next 12-18 months, to hit, you know, my imaginary revenue targets in my model versus prioritizing people who fully value what you have for sale, and in particular, deposits, to really start front-end loading the cash conversion as you fill these lines?
So, well, are you asking, like, is there a trade-off between-
Well, maybe there isn't a trade-off.
... those? I don't know that you, I'm not sure that there is a trade-off in that. And I would just take a step back and think about what we see in the marketplace. So, you know, when Nathan talks about where, you know, we'll build line one-
Mm-hmm
... to me, it's not if there's customer demand, it's when.
Yeah
... the customer demand is gonna happen. So it's more a timing issue than, uncertainty issue. And I, and I think, you know, we've done, we've been thoughtful of getting anchor commercial orders with large-
Mm
... storage operators.
Mm-hmm.
We're now starting to deliver those anchor orders. I wanna be clear, like, I call them orders, and they're commercial projects well beyond anybody thinking... I don't want people to think like we're doing pilots. These are projects out in the field operating and charging and discharging energy onto the grid with large operators. I think that sets you up as you start looking and thinking about, you know, longer duration coming in, and then us getting to the point in time where we're scaled up. I think the big thing that we're gonna have here, as you get later in this month, and then as you go through the summer, is being able to bring people to the facility and have them talking about my 500 MWh project...
and stand at the end of the line and watch a battery come off the end of the line every 10 seconds proves that you have the capacity to be able to do it. And we, we've always tried to do is show people real things versus talk about them or, or PowerPoint them in-
Mm-hmm
... you know, out in the marketplace. So I think that's gonna get us to the point where I think-
Mm
... you're gonna see the revenue growth with orders, and then as you get the certainty around expansion on the lines, I think then people are gonna come and say, "All right, we're ready to place orders with you.
Perfect. And in that interim period, throughout all of the, you know, the volatility and the interest rate environment, the uncertainty on how the IRA gets applied, throughout all of that, deposits are still something that the industry accepts as a normal course of business?
Yeah.
Good, good.
Yeah, you need a deposit to secure your position in line for production capacity.
Sure.
Right, so yeah, I think the industry is very accepting of that.
Are you still contemplating working capital deposits, like a step two deposit structure?
Yeah, our standard, our standard terms have a deposit at the time of order, then there's a milestone payment four months before it goes into production, right? Which would-
Mm
... helps you procure your raw materials, and then there's payments, you know, when it goes into production, and then the majority of the cash is received by the time it gets shipped.
Gotcha.
Roughly 80% of the cash is in by the time the product leaves.
Excellent. All right, so switching gears. A patent got, I would say, acknowledged. I believe you've been working on this for a while.
Sure, yeah.
Yeah. So I know it's not really fair to ask you what's in the battery, but you went through the, you know, the effort of patenting this. It introduces, we're estimating, at least a 50% mix of an alternative base chemistry. How long has that been part of the design process for Z3? Roughly.
Roughly how long we've been working on it?
Yeah.
Oh, it's more than 12 months.
More than 12 months. Is it-
I mean, so, like-
Yeah
... I guess, just to give a little background on, like, what the team does to get to the point that you see a patent, right? So-
Yeah
... you're coming up with an idea that something will work. You've actually tested it without telling anybody-
Mm-hmm
... that you're testing it. You then apply, you put your patent application in, and that has a period of time. They have to work through that. The whole time that you're doing this, you're going through and you're continuing to test the product to get to the point where you're ready to put it into commercial production, and then how you source that product and how you get there. So, you know, seeing the patent come out of it is, is the end of a more than 12-month process by the technology team.
Right. And so, I mean, I can, I can ask, you don't have to answer: Is that commercial now?
Will be.
It will be?
Yeah.
Okay, interesting. So since it's public, a lot of the benefits here are on the cost side.
Yep.
I assume the findings from this patent helped inform the structure of your electrolyte supply agreements?
Yep, exactly.
Is it part of your confirmed, or your already guided for Z3 cost outs, or is this something to, you know, maybe evaluate down the line and it's additional?
No, it's in the guidance that we gave in December.
Perfect.
Yeah.
So this is imminent?
Right.
Now, does this change anything in terms of how customers are going to look at, you know, their due diligence process? Do we hit reset on any of, like, the UL nonsense or anything?
No.
It's not nonsense, but yeah.
Yeah. No, it's the same. I mean, it's a different composition of the electrolyte formula. It's not something you have to go back through and do testing and validation on when it comes to UL.
Excellent. And so in your last Z3 iteration, you haven't changed the numbering. I don't know if it's, like 112 or whatever on the back, you know, behind the scenes. You already were able to increase the energy density of the cell incrementally. Is this on top of that?
Included in.
Included in.
Included in what we talked about in December.
Perfect.
Mm-hmm.
Got it. Well, I'm gonna spare the crowd the science. We wrote a note on it. We can send it to you. And the patent actually reads pretty well as far as patents go, if you're into that kind of thing. Let's, let's shift back to, you know, something the rest of the room might actually care about. So a lot has been changing, and we're gonna get to the IRA separately, but a lot has been changing in terms of how the grid is developing all of these energy assets. We talk about it often, but it's been a while since we just hit reset.
If you wanna just go back maybe two years versus where we are today in terms of, you know, the kinds of projects that you're seeing, but more specifically, where are you seeing, I don't wanna call them the smartest people, but the more thoughtful parts of the industry in terms of appreciating what you're bringing to the market, thinking about their assets 10 years down the line, thinking about how they're structuring these investments? Because if you just Google it, you're gonna find people who don't seem to know what they're doing. You're gonna find the utility companies who do, but they won't talk to you, and then a whole host in the middle. How have you seen it evolved, and how do you feel about your pipeline today versus two years ago in terms of the quality of the customer base?
I would say just on pipeline, I mean, the quality in the pipeline from known entities has gone up, right?
Mm-hmm.
So when you look at who we're talking to... And what I would say is, like, we, you know, I'm coming up on 6 years with the company. You know, when I first started, people were talking about, you know, we use batteries for 30 minutes, then it was 2 hours, and it was, "We'll never do more than 4," and now it's, "We, we probably won't do less than 6," when you, when you talk to different people. I'd say there's a, you know, there's the, the group of people that are gonna go through technology from a technology validation standpoint before expansion. There's a group of people that look at the technology that really understand... how they can use this in an application and differentiate performance for returns on their side.
The people that have done that have gone out and are aggressively out in the market now, thinking about where they can put Eos systems to generate their profits. And we love working with them, and it's helped made us smarter as we go out to the market, right? So I think the big challenge that we've had is the market's kind of set to the dominant technology, which is lithium-ion. It's a highly technical sell in the beginning to get people to understand the differences between the two technologies and the benefits that you get, and how you calculate things like round-trip efficiency with our technology, how you look at system sizing.
Every time you put an offer out, and you go through a, you know, a bid clarification, you learn more about how you have to position yourself, for the future and how you get acceptance on, on your, on your technology. But we like, and we're seeing more and more people come, not just on the economics or the technology, but also the fact that made in America. You know, like, what started off as a necessity really to keep the company, solvent six years ago has now become a strategic strength because we, we're, you know, we're 91% domestic supply chain, right?
So that's very important when you look at things like, you know, CATL being removed from Camp Lejeune, and us being there, saying, "If you want an American solution, here it is, and we can scale." So we just have to keep plugging away at it every day, and I think more and more people are realizing the benefits, and you just gotta keep selling this. I mean, this is a, you know, medium- to long-cycle business that we're talking about. It's not a short, short-cycle business that we're-
Yeah. And if we can go even further back in your history, if you don't mind. I mean, the unregulated side of the utilities market has gone through some really wild swings, right? I mean, first we had, you know, gas and cogen, and I think we tried flywheels for a minute.
Yep.
Then it was solar and wind. But, you know, batteries as a part of that ecosystem is, is a fairly new part of the cycle. How do you feel about the technical expertise in terms of how people are thinking about it, instead of, "Hey, I'm not just trying to teach a solar person from 2010 how to integrate a battery in the first place"? Are you seeing better leadership on the technical side, just from the pure benefit of having storage?
Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I would say we're seeing a significant increase in understanding of the flexibility and the durability of our storage systems. And so, as customers see the cycle data, they're looking at different use cases, right? Can you recoup your capital investment in fewer years by dispatching it merchant or keeping a portion of it available for merchant? Can you use it for synthetic transmission? Can you use it for, you know, congestion or alleviating congestion? So I think, you know, they're starting to get a better understanding of how flexible and what are some of the things that we can deliver on that maybe some of the competition can't or at least can't do yet. And so we're seeing additional use cases, and I think that's gonna pull forward additional orders over time. But like Joe said, it takes time.
It takes years, and product in the field, and people testing it-
Mm-hmm
... and we'll, it's gonna evolve over the next several years, I think.
Perfect. You've been doing a little bit of work, laying the groundwork in Italy.
Yep.
As I understand it, they have a, I think, a program that is... I don't wanna call it more progressive, but maybe it's an easier kind of ROI on the commercial push. Can you go through that?
So it's a pretty interesting program, where they're gonna be outbidding, you know, last that we heard was over 70 GWh of storage over periods of time, with a certain amount earmarked for non-lithium-ion technology. You know, we've been working—I mean, again, you know, this is something that we've been working on for, you know, six years, to get to this point of convincing, and verifying, and showing, and, and, and now getting to the point where we'll, we will be operating, you know, one cube, so that the customer gets used to using that. And then, we're already starting to look at what projects we would bid when the auctions start coming up.
So it's a great opportunity for us to grow there, and I think it's a really interesting regime that they're putting in place that incentivizes people to go and invest in Italy and in the grid infrastructure. 'Cause you're basically getting your project backstopped by Terna, which has investment grade balance sheet, like when you look at how the mechanics are gonna work on the auction itself.
Mm-hmm.
But Italy's one of like you... You know, you then switch, and you look at places like Germany, where coal retirements and the amount of renewables that they have on the grid, they're gonna need storage as well. So it's just being there when the growth comes, and building up your experience to be able to do that, and then working through and building up your capability to deliver in country.
Can we go back with like a CliffsNotes of what the structure is in Italy? Is this a government-backed program that's being exercised through a public utility, like a-
So it's like... Yeah, it's through Terna.
Okay.
It's through the grid operator.
Yep.
And it's like they had done an auction a few years ago, where they auctioned off, and the majority of it was lithium-ion. They've replicated that regime, but they've changed the way that you can backstop your investment. So they're not gonna have, it's not gonna be tied to PPA-
Okay
... but will be tied to the balance sheet of Terna, which then makes it investment grade when you look at the debt. So it's gonna be one where I think a lot of people are gonna be looking at. And you're starting to see people position for that from a developer standpoint. So it's something like we're trying to position the company for, to be prepared to deliver on that.
... Now, are they going to wanna see Eos go international, or is that something you would think about supplying from Pittsburgh first?
Yeah, until their size.
Until their size, yeah.
Yeah.
Okay. Excellent. So if we turn over then to the IRA, there was a kind of an important addendum to it finally.
Yeah.
The IRS gave us a Safe Harbor, how do you say, alternative-
Mm-hmm.
- that keeps everybody's costs a secret.
Yeah.
Maybe just speaking from your perspective, have you ever given up or offered your cost structure to help a pipeline member, you know, address the Domestic Content rules?
Not in detail. We've had to get creative and you know, share components, you know, with different customers, 'cause it is a key component, right?
Mm-hmm.
I mean, if you've got 91% domestic content, as Joe said, and we've had a third party come in and validate that, that's the number we're working off of for Z3, and I think that number's gonna continue to go up. The challenge you have is you have to, with, before Safe Harbor, is you have to lay out so much detail, you give away some of your competitive information, which we didn't wanna do. So we've been working with customers on how do we structure something that works for them. You know, can we give them greater-than language, for example? So I think the Safe Harbor, although today our calculation is something less than 91%, but it gives a lot more certainty and clarity and understanding to counterparties in terms of how this works, right?
I mean, they can just take a number off a sheet, plug it into a formula, and they can and they know what they've got. So I think it really helps from that standpoint. And the other thing that's good about it is, the way it's set up, it really is an advantage to us with our longer duration technology. I think we can pull through Domestic Content bonus credits on PV panels, for example, if a developer's using American-made steel in a project, because of our Domestic Content numbers and getting the entire project above the 40, soon to be 45% threshold. And I think the other added feature in what they've done is there's actually a incentive to have longer duration energy storage for how you come up with the Safe Harbor.
Yeah, they don't say it explicitly-
Yeah
... but that's the math.
Yeah. Yeah, that's how the math works.
So thinking through the conversations that you've already had in your pipeline, how would you rate the importance of domestic content for even getting some of these over the line? Like, is just merely having an easier path to proving it something that de-risks something in your pipeline, or was the industry already kind of finding a comfort level with how they were going to report on it, and this maybe helps, but it's not, you know, a game changer where nobody was sharing this information so . . . yeah.
I think it's the latter. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely helpful. I think you had a whole industry that was kinda, you know, trying to figure this out. And, you know, people are asking for explicit data. Companies like us are saying: "We're not gonna give you explicit data." So there's been this dance going on for the last year. So I think this certainly helps bring some clarity to it.
Mm-hmm.
And also, you know, we went out and got a third party to verify our numbers so that a counterparty's not just looking at Joe and I saying: "Well, should I trust your math or not?" Right? So now you've actually got Safe Harbor, which even further de-risks it from a customer standpoint. So I think it's helpful, but I think the industry was kind of finding a way through it anyway. This should speed things up and make things easier, I would say.
Gotcha. And I found it interesting. I'm a little ignorant on the solar space, the specifics of it, but the tracking versus fixed. The way the math works out, you have a significant advantage in fixed over tracking. Can you maybe just break down your relationship with the two? Is there any real difference to how you guys approach it?
Not really. The storage is the same.
The storage is the same.
Storage is the same.
Okay.
Our piece of the project doesn't change.
Right.
Yeah. Um...
Well, I mean, that's all I really had prepared. You know, the SAT is front of mind for everyone, right? We're just kind of counting down the days. You said 2Q. You wanna say it again?
Yes. 2Q.
2Q.
2Q, yeah.
All right, excellent. You know, and then from there, just to reiterate, you know, there's a parallel process of submitting the rest of the compliance components for the DOE-
Mm-hmm
... and then it goes into their black box.
Mm-hmm.
They're not being coy. We don't know.
Mm-hmm. Correct.
After that, a distribution will come.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Between now and then, you know, we went over the balance sheet again.
Mm.
So, is there anything else that's, you know?
I mean, look,
excited about?
I mean, I would...
We talk about this so often.
Yeah, I know. Yeah. But I would add, like, you know, the other part that you know, we haven't spoken about that I think is very important, is just the amount of discharge hours on the technology that's out there.
Sure.
You know, like, and now getting up to where your—you know—almost 2 GWh of, in the—you know—in the field, actual on a per one project, you know, energy discharge. Which to us, like, when you look at... We had included this in our earnings, and when you look at the end of that curve and it goes basically vertical-
Mm-hmm
... it's pretty exciting because it's just another proof point of how the technology can operate out in the field. I think, you know, that's where you really start to learn. So when you start thinking about where in the evolution people are in developing technology, like, to me, the steep, our learning curve looks exactly like that line once you start getting out of the lab and out in the field and operating. And it helps you, it makes you smarter around how you develop your software to be able to operate the assets out in the field. So we spend a lot of time talking about manufacturing the battery, and the line, and getting it out in a cube.
That whole how you operate and optimize performance for customers, and the simplicity that we have to be able to do that, I think over time is gonna prove itself out to be a valuable asset for the company as well.
Yeah, I think Francis said half of his time is spent coding now.
Yeah.
Which is not-
Yeah, it's not-
... not what his original plan was.
Yeah, and
But that's where the incremental is.
You bring up a good point. Like, when you look at, you know, the company in and of itself, like, you know, you've got people out there that are selling the product, right?
Mm-hmm.
Francis, like, when you think about, like, you know, Francis, our technology leader, you know, six years ago, the majority of his team was doing electrolyte development.
Mm-hmm.
The majority of his team now does cost out and software development, right?
Mm-hmm.
And then you've got, you know, Pranesh's team, making sure we got all the drawings and everything so that customers can install everything. We can get suppliers to supply the building of the product. Then, you've got a whole group of people that are out in the field installing, maintaining, and operating the assets. So when you look at everything that's getting done from the standpoint of, like, the operational experience that we're gaining with the people that we have, it's, you know, it's pretty impressive and exciting when you think about, like, where we are in the evolution of truly being an operating company and being able to scale.
Yeah. All right, well, we have a few minutes left. Are there any questions? Besides all of the ones that I asked. All right, well, I mean, we can let you go a little early if there's anything-
Great.
Beautiful.
Yeah, thanks, everyone.
Well, thanks so much.
Yeah, appreciate it.
You're welcome.
Thank you.
Yeah.