Earnings Call: Q4 2021

Jul 28, 2021

Good day and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Extreme Networks' 4th Quarter Fiscal Year 2021 Financial Results Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen only mode. After the speakers' presentation, there will be a question and answer session. Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to your speaker today, Stan Kovler, Vice President of Corporate Strategy and Investor Relations. Please go ahead. Thank you, operator. Welcome everyone to the Extreme Networks 4th quarter 2021 year end 2021 earnings conference call. I'm Stan Kovler, Vice President of Corporate Strategy and Investor Relations. With me today are Extreme Networks' President and CEO, Ed Meyercord and CFO, Remi Thomas. We just distributed a press release and filed an 8 ks detailing Extreme Networks financial results for the quarter. Call. For your convenience, a copy of the press release, which includes our GAAP to non GAAP reconciliations is available at the Investor Relations section of our website at extremenetworks.com. I would like to remind you that during today's call, our discussion may include forward looking statements about Extreme's future business, financial and operational results, growth expectations and strategies, the impact of the COVID pandemic, challenges in our supply chain, call. Specifically as they relate to chip shortages, the impact of tariffs, digital transformation initiatives as well. Call. We caution you not to put undue reliance on these forward looking statements as they involve risks and uncertainties that can cause actual results to differ materially results from those anticipated by these statements as described in our risk factors in our 10 ks report for the period ending June 30, 2020, filed with the SEC and any additional risk factors in subsequent 10 Q filings. Any forward looking statements made on this call may reflect our analysis as of today and we have no plans or duty to update them except as required by law. Now, I will turn the call over to Extreme's President and CEO, Ed Meyercord. Thank you, Stan, And thank you all for joining us this morning. Q4 capped off a record year in our 25 year history as we crossed over the $1,000,000,000 revenue mark for the very first time. This is an important milestone and it was a long term goal of ours. And importantly, the momentum we built throughout the year with 36% overall year over year bookings growth that drove 29% revenue growth in the 4th quarter has carried into fiscal 2022. And the strength of our year end results are understated, Given the fact that we tripled our backlog to over $100,000,000 over the course of the year, our execution has never been sharper and as a result Extreme is in strongest competitive position it's ever been in. This is evident in our industry leadership and significant growth opportunities and 2 of the fastest growth segments in our industry, cloud Driven Enterprise Networking and 5 gs Network Infrastructure Services. The demand for our solutions and the volume of new opportunities are unprecedented and we're taking share. This is evident in our funnel, our current and projected top line growth forecast, our highest ever full year gross and operating margins and our record free cash flow generation. The momentum of our cloud driven business bookings continues to grow. Market share data from 650 Group affirmed that Extreme remains the 2nd largest in cloud networking with 11% share last year. We're outpacing the market with our 4th consecutive quarter of triple digit growth in new subscriptions bookings at 111% bookings growth during Q4. Our total cloud services business is now on an annualized run rate of over $100,000,000 in bookings at over $70,000,000 in revenue. As the 2nd largest cloud based networking vendor, we currently manage 1,700,000 devices Audex IQ, which marks 8 straight quarters of rapid growth in customer accounts and managed devices. We continue to innovate with our cloud networking capabilities, making our Copilot tool available to all users in June. It delivers what we call explainable AI for a growing list of use cases in the form of next level analytics and automation. And importantly, we brought our network management software that includes 3rd party devices with our XiQ site engine offering, which opens a seamless path to bring millions of devices managed by our popular and widely deployed XMC on prem software to the cloud. The industry is noticing our momentum. CRN named XiQ Product of the Year and Copilot was named the coolest new offering of the year. We continue to be a leader in the Gartner Magic Quadrant and we consistently carry the top rankings for customer service and Gartner's peer reviews for the last 4 years. To date, we have upgraded approximately 40% of our portfolio to Universal Hardware, which is the latest generation of chipsets from Broadcom with embedded XiQ licenses. This is on track with our plan we laid out in the beginning of the year. In fiscal Q3, we noted that the 5,520 was the most successful introduction product introduction ever, but we broke this record in Q4 with the introduction of the 5,420. The 5,420 brings higher margins to our value tier with 80 gig stacking, MACsec ready encryption and new multi rate capabilities up to 2.5 gigabit speeds along with up to 90 watts of PoE. We also launched our 9920 next gen packet broker this quarter. The product was delivered in record time with a product cycle of 1 year on a new hardware platform. This was an amazing feat by our engineering and product teams that is unprecedented. On the wireless side, we enabled routing capabilities on the AP302W to expand our SD WAN capabilities. And as we announced earlier this week, we were the 1st enterprise networking company in the industry to ship WiFi 6E access points to our customers, that's the AP4000. WiFi 6E brings an unprecedented amount of clean spectrum at the 6 gigahertz band that enables new apps and use cases. It's the first time in more than a decade that a new frequency band has been added to WiFi. This band enables super high multi gig speeds and the AP can run on 2.4, 5 and 6 gigahertz frequencies simultaneously with enhanced security on top. Our target customers are on the front end of an investment cycle And the momentum of large deals and project based business continues to grow as our large deal funnel is up 50% heading into fiscal 2022. Customers are accelerating their return to work environments that are more flexible and hybrid in nature, supporting our Infinite Enterprise Vision. The networking industry is set to experience the highest growth in years given this new normal And global stimulus spending is also fueling growth as we come out of the historic pandemic. As Remi will discuss, the next wave of recovery in spending is coming from the hospitality sector and we experienced particular strength with casino and hospitality customers this quarter, such as Wynn Resorts, Shooting Star Casino, Turning Stone Casino, Hard Rock Amsterdam Hotel and others. In the Sports and Entertainment segment, notable new wins were Stanford University Stadium, where we displayed Cisco in the heart of Silicon Valley. Government stimulus is also funding part of the recovery with programs across the globe in the education space, such as the FCC's Emergency Connectivity Fund, providing $7,000,000,000 to address the homework gap. Korea has announced $250,000,000 direct investment in COVID related education initiatives. The UK, dollars 1,400,000,000 catch up program. These programs complement existing programs like Digital Pack in Germany, Giga Schools in Japan. With Extreme's exposure to the education market, We stand to benefit from all these investments globally over the next several years. So what is Extreme doing to capitalize on this unique opportunity. Having proven out our success with essentially one main SaaS application at XiQ, We're making investments in our business to monetize the secular trend towards more software services with a complete migration to cloud. We are investing in talent and new programs to drive SaaS customer success. This required not only new sales and services expertise that we have brought in house, But also focused IT investments to enable a more enhanced SaaS experience. We intend to make the customer experience a core competency and investing in new IT platforms to deliver these capabilities will be a keen focus for Extreme over the next fiscal year. And on the senior leadership front, we have made new hires from the likes of ServiceNow and other SaaS native companies. In our service provider business, we recognize initial bookings and revenue of our 5 gs growth opportunities And we remain well on our way to over $20,000,000 of 5 gs business in fiscal 2022, in line with our expectations. Both of our 5 gs solutions, the 9,920 platform for services assurance and the cloud native infrastructure solutions we sell through our OEM partner are gaining stream in the marketplace. We remain confident in our growth plan for CNIS As the list of service providers around the world testing this solution continues to grow and we have clear visibility to the ramp in sales. The funnel of opportunities remain strong across the broad range of verticals and market segments that we serve. The record backlog with which we entered fiscal 2022 gives us confidence in our ability to capitalize on our growth objectives. We expect to grow our market share and realize a level of organic growth we have not witnessed for many years. And with that, I'll turn the call over to our CFO, Rami Toman. Thanks, Ed. As Ed noted, we finished fiscal 2021 on a very strong note and executed well across the board. Q4 total revenue of $278,100,000 grew 29% year over year and 10% quarter over quarter. Strong demand for our wired and wireless portfolio drove 38% year over year and 11% quarter over quarter product revenue growth. Services revenue grew 11% year over year and 7% quarter over quarter. For the Q4 in a row, our cloud business exceeded our expectations. New cloud subscription bookings grew 111% year over year. Our total cloud managed subscription business, including renewals exceeded $100,000,000 in annualized bookings and grew to over $70,000,000 in annualized revenue in Q4. Our recurring revenue, which includes support for both hardware and software, managed services and subscriptions grew 6% both sequentially and year over year to $78,000,000 and accounted for 28% of total revenue. Non GAAP earnings per share was $0.19 up from $0.03 in the year ago quarter and from $0.16 last quarter, once again reflecting faster growth in our revenue than in our costs and expenses. For fiscal 2021, Our non GAAP EPS grew to $0.57 up from $0.12 in fiscal 2020 driven by the combination of top line recovery, and our improvement in gross margin and a reduction in expenses. Total product revenue was $195,800,000 and our product book to bill ratio was 118. Wide revenue grew 55% from a year ago and 21% sequentially led by record edge switching revenue along with solid performance in campus switching and data center. All the wireless bookings reached an all time high, wireless revenue was impacted by supply constraints and grew 1% year over year and fell 12% quarter over quarter. Total services revenue reached a record 82,300,000 up 11% from the year ago quarter and 7% sequentially, largely driven by the strength of cloud subscriptions. Our total services book to bill ratio was 134, fueled by growth in subscription bookings. The growth of cloud subscription and service renewals resulted in total deferred revenue of $346,000,000 up 8 Deferred revenue related to our cloud subscription was well in excess of $100,000,000 exiting fiscal 2021. This will help sustain our recurring services and subscription revenue growth going forward. From a vertical standpoint, the highest sequential growth came from education on the strength of both K-twelve and higher education businesses. Other areas of strength were service provider, where we began to see initial demand for our 5 gs solutions take off 1 quarter ahead of our expectations, manufacturing, state and federal governments and Transportation and Logistics. Our Sports and Entertainment business was up triple digits year over year as venue and hospitality business continued to build. In fact, nearly all verticals were up strong double digits or better from a year ago. Our non GAAP gross margin of 60.5 percent improved 110 basis points from a year ago quarter, but declined from 61.5% in Q3. The year over year increase in the company's gross margin was driven for the most part by product, where the very significant increase in volume drove a much higher absorption of the fixed cost components of our COGS. This more than offset the year over year decline in our services gross margin. The sequential drop of 1 percentage point in the company's total gross margin was due on the product side by an increasing component and freight cost against the current backdrop of severe shortage of components and on the services side by high mix of professional services revenue associated with MLB deployments. Q4 non GAAP operating expenses were $130,900,000 up from 116.8 $1,000,000 in the year ago quarter and up from $127,300,000 in Q3, essentially reflecting higher sales and marketing costs. The net results of fastest top line growth compared to costs and expenses was a non GAAP Q4 operating margin of 13.4%, a company record up from just 5.2% in the year ago quarter and 11.3% in Q3. On an annual basis, operating margin of 10.9% marks the first time in company history that Extreme finished the year at double digit non GAAP operating margins. The non GAAP earnings per share of $0.19 included a tax adjustment of $0.04 primarily due to one time catch up modification of the non GAAP effective tax rate to reflect a greater revenue contribution of the U. S. Entity to the company's overall non GAAP pre tax profit. The non GAAP tax adjustments, which would normally have been attributed to this quarter was $0.01 and would have resulted in a non GAAP EPS of $0.22 Going forward, we anticipate the non GAAP effective tax rate will be approximately 16% for fiscal 2022. The recovery in our operating profit combined with a good management of operating working capital resulted in the highest ever quarterly cash flow from operations of $57,000,000 in Q4 and free cash flow of $52,200,000 In fact, For all of fiscal 2021, cash flow from operation was a record $144,500,000 and free cash flow was 127,400,000 Our cash conversion cycle reached historically low levels of 22 days compared to an already low 31 days in Q3, mostly driven by substantial decrease in our base of inventory. We ended Q4 with $247,000,000 in cash and equivalents compared to $203,000,000 at the end of Q3. Our net debt decreased to just shy of $100,000,000 down from $148,000,000 in Q3. As a result, our leverage ratio fell to 2 and starting in early August, the interest cost carried on our Term Loan A debt will drop by another 50 basis points from an all in rate of 3.19% to 2.69%. Now turning to guidance. As I noted entering Q4, demand is outstripping supply for certain products, which led to record backlog for products entering fiscal 2022 such as our universal platforms. The supply constraints are leading to further rising component and freight costs as we enter Q1. We continue to proactively manage the supply chain and our strategic relationship with Broadcom is helping us in this regard. Importantly, we have secured vendor commitments that will allow us to accelerate product delivery and bring down backlog as of Q2 and beyond. As a result, the combination of our strong results and execution give us greater confidence in our fiscal 2022 outlook. We expect fiscal 2022 revenue towards the high end of our 5% to 9% long term growth target with double digit operating income margin and Significant Free Cash Flow Growth. For Q1, we expect year over year growth to be in line with our full year outlook and expect revenue in the range of $250,000,000 to $265,000,000 Q1 non GAAP gross margin is anticipated to be in the range 58% to 60%. Q1 non GAAP operating expenses are expected to be in the range of $121,500,000 to $123,500,000 The sequential decrease in OpEx is primarily related to lower sales commission and other sales and marketing costs associated with seasonality and relatively similar R and D and G and A costs compared to Q4 2021. Q1 non GAAP earnings are expected to be in the range of $16,700,000 to $26,700,000 or $0.13 to $0.20 per diluted share. In Q1, we expect average shares outstanding to be 133,200,000 on a non GAAP basis. With that, I'll now turn it over to the operator to begin the question and answer session. Thank you. Our first question comes from Eric Martinuzzi with Lake Street. Your line is open. Yes, congratulations on the real strong finish there to FY 'twenty one, that's terrific and the healthy guide as well. I'm curious to know regarding demand environment, there's definitely with your enterprise customers, I know a lot of them, at least on the larger side, there is a return to the office, there was a return to the campus. Just curious to know, the IT priorities they've got because you've got a lot of people that have been gone for a while. I'm just wondering about where you guys where networking gear and wireless access stands in the pecking order of IT priorities, whether from a budgeting perspective or from a manpower perspective. Thanks, Eric. Yes, great question. I mean, it's pretty interesting what's going on in the environment out there. When the pandemic first hit, Yes, there was a lot of spend in network peripherals. They had to arm students that were going back to the homes and workers going back to their homes, Healthcare Workers, etcetera, etcetera. And now what we're seeing is the reimagining of the workplace or the work environment where enterprise customers are thinking about more of a flexible work environment and a hybrid work environment. And And this is why you hear us talk about the distributed enterprise or the infinite enterprise, because what it means is that the enterprises are taking responsibility for the new edge of the network. And the new edge of the network is going to be that individual. Eric, it's you wherever you are and whatever device you're on As opposed to being in a branch office. And that's why the Cloud enabled networking is the fastest growing segment in the networking industry. And we have the industry's highest quality cloud And because of our cloud native infrastructure, we're in a position to deliver more services than anyone else. And so our vision It's really catching enterprise customers by surprise. As people rethink their environments, networking has become a higher priority, Cloud has become more important. It brings a lot of complexity in terms of a distributed network And cloud simplifies that. So all of a sudden, from an Extreme perspective, and that's why we're seeing so much demand, Enterprise customers are contemplating cloud. And then if they're a Cisco customer, they say, well, I'd like to get another opinion from another competitor and I should hear from Extreme because they're the number 2 in terms of size, but our architecture is fundamentally Better equipped to provide a cohesive services edge platform than Cisco for sure and then all the other competitors. So Now customers are surprised when they're hearing from Extreme. Extreme is moving much further down competitive processes and our hit rate in terms of batting average Is off the charts. Okay. So you're saying that given this shift in the Wherever you are, operate from wherever you are, that favors you guys, that is a priority for your enterprise and education accounts. Oh, absolutely. I mean it's driving cloud. It makes sense, right? You want to have a centralized platform where you have complete visibility to all the devices You're managing in the network, but also to have all the insights to the edge devices that are being supported. And that's what our cloud does better than any other cloud in the industry. And so, it's that and then it's also future forward in terms of what are the services that are going to come in the future and We have the most cohesive vision in the industry. Okay. Thanks for taking my question and good luck in Q1. Thanks, Eric. Our next question comes from Alex Fon with Needham. Your line is open. Thank you very much. I was hoping you could talk about Your approach and the industry approach to pricing given what's going on, to what extent you anticipate Some increase in prices, when you might be increasing them and what you're seeing from your competitors on that subject. I mean, clearly, there's going to be some pass throughs here. Sure. Alex, we are seeing and we are aware of competitor price increases. Probably the most important move for Extreme is the migration to the universal platforms that you're aware of. We talked about a 40% migration. But for us, it's the new technology and we caught up. So we're on the latest wave of Broadcom technology in terms of the latest generation chipsets. And as you just saw with our Wi Fi 6E announcement, we're first to market. So I would say that for us, you're going to see that portfolio completely migrate. And for us, it simplifies our SKUs and simplifies our supply chain. So in effect, we're going to get a nice gross margin benefit from what is a higher margin a migration to this Higher Margin Universal Platform. As it relates to and that's happening and You're going to see that migration happen over the course of this fiscal year. So that should bring nice margin benefits for us and growth benefits, especially in the second half of the year. As far as the pass through of cost is concerned, Yes. The fortunate thing for us, we do have near term increases in cost, but we've invested our teams have established a great relationship with Broadcom. And we don't just consider them a vendor, we consider them to be a strategic partner and they work really well and our teams work really well together. And so the good news for us is that we've secured commitments. And so our fiscal Q2 now, we feel like we've locked that up. And then with the 1 year lead times that started a year ago, that really eases and we're going to start unlocking backlog in Q2 And then we feel confident about our allocations and wafer allocations for Q3 and beyond. We have to be smart about it. We're looking at potential More tactical price increases maybe for certain products. At this stage, we don't have a formal plan for it. So you haven't increased any prices to date? We're always looking at our portfolio, Alex. So I mean, I would say we're always you'll always see changes in us Elevating prices, particularly on older products, older generation products, it's kind of a normal course of business. The other way we manage it is through discounting control. So Yes, that's the other way that we manage the margin. If you were to look at it from the perspective of On average, your competitors not having this newer product line, not having the ability to benefit from the universal integration of components. Can you quantify or just generally speak to, is it 2%? Is it 5%? Is it 8%? What kind of price Are you seeing from Cisco and Hewlett Packard and others? I think it's safe to say 5% to 10%. Thank you. Thank you. Our next question comes from Faiz Kang with B. Riley. Your line is open. Yes, good morning. First of all, just going back to the supply chain challenges, Do you think this current quarter, fiscal Q1 will be the bottom in terms of gross margin? How should we think about gross margin going forward? Yes, I'll start off and let Remy pick it up. But the answer is yes. For us, the September quarter, we have the most pressure on this quarter. And I think that the same is true with the rest of the industry. As I mentioned earlier, we've gotten secure shipment dates for what we need in Q2, just given the strength of our teams working with And the strategic nature of the relationship that we've got with Broadcom. So we see the lessening happening and that means that we have commitments. The cost that we incur have to do with expedite fees and trying to pull in product. And then it's also the timing of how product arrives at our ODMs and then the speed with which we have to turn around into product and direct ship. So there's a lot of contributing factors. So across multiple factors, we expect to see the easing Start to take place in our Q2 and it's really this quarter where we'll bear the brunt of it. Remi, I don't know if you want to add to that. Yes. If you take the midpoint About guidance for Q1 Dave, you see that it's 59% compare that to where we landed in Q4 it was 60.5%. So we're looking at a 1.5 percentage point impact if you take the midpoint. And if you apply the math to the revenue that we're calling out that really gives you an idea of the size of the impact and it's really driven by 2 things. One is the higher cost of components that we're having to pay to secure deliveries and the second one is higher freight cost. We used to be in an environment where we were able to ship anywhere between 25% 35% of our shipments from our ODMs to our hub and from our hub to our DCs by sea and right now we're pretty much at 95% to 100% by air Just to accelerate the delivery time. So these two components add up to that 1.5 percentage point difference that you see between Q4 and Q1. We think it's probably the highest that we'll see and things will start to improve As of Q2 and onward. And then the best point we'll get also a high mix of Universal hardware platforms going forward, which intrinsically carry higher gross margin than AltGen 2 products. Got it. And then my second question is regarding your fiscal 2022 outlook of high end of 5% to 9%. Can you just Share some key assumptions such as like 5 gs, I think you already talked about $20,000,000 Could there be some upside to that and Wireless, WiFi, other verticals. Yes, well, We have the benefit of having a funnel. We have a lot of opportunities. We have better visibility. And so We're seeing this momentum and I was answering Eric's question before. We're just seeing higher velocity as we roll into fiscal 'twenty The strength that we're seeing in July, the momentum that we felt in June is still right over into July, which is normally a softer month for us. And I think it has to do with our position in cloud. Cloud really is the fastest growing segment in the industry And people are rethinking and considering cloud. Most of cloud has been wireless, but People are starting to think more broadly about edge switching and migrating other platforms to cloud. And we're in a very strong, probably the most competitive position of all the players in the industry, Certainly the strongest position we've been in. And as I said before, our teams are out winning in the market. And I think There's more competitive differentiation at Extreme today, certainly since I've been involved with the company for over a decade. So demand for our solutions is at an all time high And I think it's being driven by the competitiveness of our solutions, the innovation that we're bringing, the consistency of our vision, The messaging, we have a smaller market share in the industry relative to a Cisco or an HPE. So when customers are looking at us, maybe they haven't looked at Extreme in a long time and they're surprised to find out The quality of the solutions that we can bring and the vision that we have as a potential partner to go forward. I mean this is how we won Major League Baseball, a great example. Some of these casinos, great example. I mentioned Stanford University, Yes, right in Palo Alto, they go extreme. We have a lot of big marquee wins And then that really stimulates our field and gives them confidence to all of our sellers in the field. Got it. And my last question is actually going back to the supply chain issues, you talked about the margin impact. What about top line impact? How much revenues are we leaving on the table because of the component shortages? If you remember the prepared remarks from Ed, we talked about a backlog entering Q1 that was $100,000,000 that's about 3 times the level that it was entering Q1 of fiscal 2021. So that gives you an idea of the magnitude of how the backlog is built. So So I would say that it weren't for product constraints, but we don't like to make those comments because we have product constraints, but if it weren't our revenue Both for Q4 and Q1 would have been tens of 1,000,000 of dollars higher. Got it. Thank you very much. Nice quarter. Thank you. Thank you. Our next question comes from Jim Schwab with Craig Hallum. Your line is open. Hey, guys. Congratulations on a great quarter and just got a wow, a whole list of litany of wonderful things going for you. I just want to get to gross margins versus the top line growth drivers that you guys have highlighted. With the supply chain issue kind of becoming less of a headwind, it appears in the second half of your fiscal year. And by that time, I would imagine just about every product you'll be shipped would be on the refresh universal platform. And then if we can get some moderation and expedited freight cost and the supply chain of freight kind of normalizes. How good could gross margins be exiting the year if those type of events were to occur? So if you think about the drivers of gross margin on the downside right now, which is going to impact Q1 and to a lesser extent Q2, You have those higher component costs to secure deliveries and you have the freight costs. And on the upside, you have The introduction of the universal hardware. You have our ability to selectively raise price on certain products and more importantly to control discounting, Which we're doing very effectively and you have the mix. I talked in my prepared comments about deferred revenue And the fact that we now have $340,000,000 plus of deferred revenue, so you're going to see the percentage of support And subscription revenue as a percentage of the total pickup over the coming quarters and from the current level of 28 segment. So when you factor all that, we should be exiting Q4 fiscal 2022 north of 60% obviously and we feel confident about the long term targets that we've established at the Analyst Day. If you recall, we gave a range of 63% to 65%. We think we're still on that trajectory even though we have the short term impact of the two items that I mentioned earlier. And then you add into the fact that you have probably what looks to be the most competitive product lining up for customers, Lisa. You just said it. I just said it. Yes. Yes. We believe it's really that statement, but it came from you. Yes. You can quote me on it. All right. I don't have any other questions. Thanks guys. Thank you so much, Christian. Thank you. Our next question comes from Paul Silver with Cowen. Your line is open. Thanks guys for taking the questions. A couple from me. First off, Remi, did I don't think I heard you give it and I understand why you want, but did you give us a number your expectation for gross margin for all in fiscal 2022? Or is there given the higher freight costs, the higher component costs at this point, is it just too hard? I didn't, but the goal is to be north of 60% for the full year. So we'll obviously exit at a higher rate. We're thinking we could be north of 61% by Q4. And when you take the average for the year and take Into account the mix of revenue between the various quarters, we feel like we should be above 60% on average for the full year. All right. And then the higher freight costs that you and everybody else is saying, is there any concern that freight costs Continue to go up. If I heard you correctly, you're already shipping 95% by air. So it sounds like the mix of sea to air that can't get any higher. But is there any concern that freight costs will continue to go up and improve a headwind? So there's two factors. The first one is the one you just mentioned, which is that right now we're almost 100% air. And the second one is the actual cost for carrying a ton of product over the Pacific and then over the Atlantic. So to bring products from China to El Paso and then ship it out either to the U. S. Or to the rest of the world, we tend to use commercial airlines and to carry our products. And because the capacity has been limited for the past 15 months since Kopin started, The rates are up as commercial traffic starts to pick up and you can see that airports are getting busier and busier. We expect airlines to add capacity and the unit price for carrying a ton of products to go down. So to your point, it doesn't get any worse than it currently is. As a matter of fact, when I look at the actual number that we're forecasting for that part of our cost of So in Q1 versus Q4, it's actually down slightly sequentially, but it's the component costs that are rising. So Remi, to be clear, because it makes perfect sense that as commercial airlines add capacity, You and everybody else should see prices going down. But to be clear, you're already seeing that or that's just Yes. Yes. The price on certain routes are already starting to ease a bit, but it's more than offset by the rising component costs we see from Q4 to Q1. And then on that second point about rising component costs, is there any visibility as to incremental increases Throughout the year or do you already have prices locked in? No. We basically to the point I made have a long term relationship with Proffman and the other supplies that we use. And so we're in constant dialogue to secure commitments for deliveries in Q2 and onwards And we have good visibility as to how much that will cost us. All right. And then on the demand side, What's your historical experience with respect to customer cancellations of orders and backlog? I assume that's rare. Yes. Paul, that's a pretty rare occurrence. And I would say that Yes. We have seen a couple of small kind of one off situations where there's an urgent project or an urgent demand. What's interesting for us is that what we're hearing from our distributors is that We are actually we've asked them to force rank the vendors and we've got really high ranking. So we're getting I think right now Extreme is kind of an interesting position of potentially being a go to because of how we manage the supply chain. Ed, everybody, all network companies, I trust well beyond networking, The silver lining of the pandemic has been customers providing extended visibility far beyond the normal book and ship that's For many years now, and that's given you and your peers far greater visibility into the future than what's the case what has been the case historically. That said, Investment community is so worried that there's some degree perhaps meaningful over ordering. What is your visibility as to true demand in the risk that there is a healthy amount and healthy obviously would be the long word, But that there's a meaningful amount of over ordering going on, so true demand is far less than what your nominal order book And other demand metrics would indicate. Yes, it's a great question, Paul. I think you got to think about stream and our business mix. And I think I would see from some of like you might see more of that from like larger service providers, Maybe like the large Fortune 50 type accounts, etcetera. But we don't see it as much. I mean, we might see Some stocking orders from distis coming in where we know that they're trying to get ahead of this. But in terms of our backlog, it's a pretty small percentage. When you think about a school district going through getting E Rate funding and Adding to the network or upgrading their network, they're not as sophisticated trying to get ahead of global supply chain crunch. So We just don't see that as much. If you look at our customer profile, most of them are ordering what they need for projects. We have run rate business where they're just ordering and then there's project business. But in the case of Stanford University Stadium, Yes, they have the worst WiFi in their league, okay. That's embarrassing for a company that's right in the tech center. They need to upgrade. Well, guess what? They've gone to Extreme big opportunity for us. We won that in the competitive, but They're not pre ordering to get in front of supply chain. They're ordering because they have a problem with the quality of WiFi. And I'd say that is true with Yes, almost all the ordering that we're seeing from our customers. Remy, do you want to add anything? Yes, I was going to say, Paul, remember, we operate under 2 tiered distribution model where we recognize revenue on a sell in basis to disties and then disties provides our products to business partners who sell them to end customers. Hypothetically, if an end customer changed their mind and canceled their order, first of all, Most of the business partners don't take cancel orders. But hypothetically, if that happened, what the DCs would do is just reallocate those goods because they're short of everything right now to another business partner who would end up selling it to So we measure the risk of return through stock rotations, which is an allowance that we give out this piece for the ability to rotate products And stock rotations right now are at an all time low because everything they have in their warehouse, they need to be able to deliver to the various business partners that are seeing this strong uptick in demand. Gus, Let me ask one more question on this line. Playing devil's advocate, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the last time we saw a meaningful over ordering crisis, if you will. You'd have to go back to the telecom Internet bubble back in the late '90s. Maybe there was maybe I'm forgetting 1 or 2 other times, but I think you'd have to go back 20 plus years. Given how long it's been, and this is obviously not unique to Extreme, But if that is what's going on to what you said earlier today, Remi, notwithstanding your comments, and again, I recognize this will not be a unique Extreme issue. Just trying to gauge the risk. Everything you just said, would that matter? I mean, we'd see if it is something that came to late 90s, Won't there be a collapse across the board from one extent or another? So your point about reallocation from one customer to another and stocks being very low and that gives you comfort and protection. Won't that just go away if it is to some degree a late 90s scenario? And I'm not saying it is or isn't, but Yes, that's fully Andrew. Yes, I was there with you in the late 90s. And This is very I mean, this is a very I can tell you, we are not in a we are in no way in a bubble As far as spending IT spend, we're actually it's just the opposite. We are on the very front end of this investment in 5 gs infrastructure. It has nothing to do I mean, What we're going to get is we're at the very, very beginning of deployment of the largest infrastructure investment In our lifetimes, and it's very mature. So There could be some near term and again, I think all the pre ordering concerns that you're worried about, I think that's more of a service provider phenomenon for larger carriers trying to get ahead. But as far as enterprise customers upgrading their networks in terms of The idea that we now have this new spectrum brand and Wi Fi In the 6 gigahertz space and what that means for customers and the capabilities for customers, The edge of the network is going to be changing from the closet in a branch office with a lot of boxes into the cloud, Which is driving a greater need for networking. All of these secular trends are going to be around for years years to come. So we have we can't see we have no visibility to a bubble at this stage of the game. Thank you. And this concludes the question and answer session. I would now like to turn the call back over to Ed Meyercord for closing remarks. Okay. Well, thank you everybody for tuning in. I can tell you we just had All of our global teams together for our sales kickoff meeting and our employees together. And I think consensus on the inside of Extreme is that there's never been a better time to be at Extreme and to be an Extreme seller. We're seeing Great demand. Our technology innovation is really coming into the forefront with the strength of our product and engineering teams. And things are looking good. We have great momentum going into this quarter. So thank all of you for joining us. Thank all the Extreme stakeholders, employees and our partners and customers who are tuning in as well. Have a great day. This concludes today's conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.