Good morning, everyone, and welcome to Barclays Industrial Select Conference, 42nd. We're pleased this morning to kick it off with John Plant, Chairman and CEO of Howmet. John, thanks for getting up early. Kicking off at 7:30 A.M.
You're welcome.
Do you have any opening comments? You want to get right into Q&A?
No opening comments.
Okay, great.
I'd rather respond to you, but I mean, if you want me to talk.
I know you can talk, but we'll go into questions. So to kick it off, you just reported you did raise your revenue guide slightly. You went from 7.5%- 8%. I don't think you broke out kind of how you're thinking about the different end markets within that 8%. So can you talk about what you're assuming for aero, for defense, industrial wheels within that 8%?
So you're right in that we did make a small upwards adjustment to our revenue guide. And I think that was maybe based on a little bit more optimism about commercial aerospace and what might happen. But then called out build rates, but didn't really specify, for example, we thought commercial aerospace would be 12% or possibly 12% with a little plus. Defense, I think we got it pegged at around mid to single digits plus, similarly with industrial markets. And then with, say, a small downdraft in the commercial transportation business, with some optimism that maybe by the second half, that'll be beginning to recover. So that was the broad contours of our thought process and blended all together at about 8% is how we've pitched the years. Within that, obviously, there's a lot of moving parts to come.
Within that aero, that sounds like a little bit better than 12%. Maybe just the conversation around aftermarket. If you want to take aftermarket broadly, I know you'd lump it all together, but how you're thinking about aero aftermarket, aerospace aftermarket in 2025 relative to 2024, and then maybe talk about IGT and defense spares. I know you've talked about that bucket growing in total from 17%- 20%, but how are you over, I guess, some period of time, but how are you thinking about that specifically for 2025?
For 2025, I think we can expect growth somewhere in that 20%-25% region for spares.
That's all in, or?
That's all in. That's Aero, defense, IGT, blend it all together and call it around that, probably, again, towards the upper end of that range that I talked about. And if that occurs, then we'll be moving up another, I'll say, one or two steps towards that 20% of total revenue that I talked about in, I think it was in the November earnings call. And so moving positively. So I think if the total's 8% and we're moving, let's say, 2025, then clearly we're going to move above 17%, 18%, 19%. May not get to 20%; depends. You're never really sure until possibly 2026. And that just depends upon the differential rates of growth that we see occurring then.
Clearly, if spares are trending towards 20% and probably will almost get there in 2025, then as a percentage of our engine business, which is the majority of where the spares originate from, then it's a much higher percentage than that. It's easy to do the math if you just take the, I'll say, what was almost $1.3 billion in 2024, and you can see the engine sales at about $3.7 billion. You can see the percentages there.
Okay. That's good color. Pricing didn't really come up on the conference call. So I know you don't really get that much into specifics around pricing anymore in terms of actual realized price. But how are you thinking about, I guess, in broad strokes, the pricing opportunity? I guess how much of 2025 is locked in at this point? How much is still to go? How much of 2026 is locked in? And how do you think about pricing in 2025, 2026, the opportunity relative to what you realized over the last couple of years?
Yeah. So I think I'd like to start with, I'll say, the origination of trying to move price, which was really started in 2019. And really, I'll say, disputing what was then the, what was called out as a fundamental factor of this being a deflationary industry. And I really did not see why that should be the case. And for the products that we offer, I just couldn't see how there's no reason why we didn't exercise what I thought the pricing power that we had. And so if you track through Qs and Ks over 2019, 2020, 2021, and so on, through 2023, you'll see that we moved that price ball forward. And any number we called out there was completely independent of any inflation recovery.
We treat that as completely separate, whether that's metal escalation or general inflation recovery, which, as you know, kicked up particularly around 2022 at the onset of the Ukraine war and the spike in energy prices leading to more generalized inflation combined with some, I'll say, government policies regarding fiscal stimulus. But in 2024, I think in February was the last commentary I really gave about price. And I moved the word slightly and said that 2024 would be of a similar number to 2023, which in itself was a new high. And it would be that or somewhat greater. And then really haven't commented since. If you said, we said, how did 2024 turn out? It was exactly in line with what I said. And we see 2025 in a similar fashion, which is, I'm going to say, 90% plus already determined.
And we're beginning to turn our minds now to 2026 and the renegotiations of our long-term contracts, which come up in 2026. So David, it's a long answer to saying the journey continues.
Just remind us, how much of your contracts kind of come up for repricing every year?
If you just took most of our contracts are three-to-five years. The occasional one will extend beyond that. But where we've come to an agreement that we are willing to extend, then I don't want to have that long-term extension with that price kickers in the back end of the contract. Because there's too much that flows without absolutely knowing everything that's going to go on relative to any, I'll say, recovery corridors that we have in our agreements. And so we tend to decide whether we want to go longer or shorter according to how we feel the competitive nature of the contract. And we think the fundamental demand in the industry will move. And so we're very careful to form a good view about that and then determine duration as well as the development percentages.
And also just to give you a bit more nuance, we also analyze volume variety. That which has moved between OE and aftermarket and any changing blend of that, or that which has gone totally past model in terms of no longer having OE production. So there's a lot of effort that goes into looking at all of that because I do consider looking after the top line in my first responsibility, whether that's top line for content, whether it's for share, whether it's for price, and always try to make those the "and" conversation rather than an "or" conversation.
Tariffs and how that plays in the pricing and your ability to price through potential tariff exposure around nickel and.
I just think it's trying to get me going because I've got tariff whiplash. One day I face left, the other day I face right, then sometimes I look up and down and I'm never really sure, but the only thing about it is that our intent is one of recovery so if it's in the case of commodities, then our escalators should take care of it. There's always this worry about does tariff input costs on commodities lead to more generalized inflation and therefore the recovery of that, and getting a dollar of recovery for more general inflation for a dollar of cost is pretty unattractive in terms of the margin profile, but I think we are clear-eyed about what needs to be done.
I mean, for example, on the Sunday where, I think it was Canada and Mexico were going to have 25% tariffs, and we were already working that and putting things in place that we said might happen. On Monday morning, of course, Mexico came off. And then in the afternoon, it was Canada came off. And so like, oh, that was a waste of time and effort and energy and emotional, whatever you call it, capital to go through. But then there's China at 10:00 A.M. And since then, it's aluminum and steel. And tomorrow it's going to be something else, but we'll deal with it as it comes. And I don't want to appear complacent in any form, clearly not if I'm taking action on a Sunday. A lot of things that are going to happen potentially by Tuesday. But yeah, it's whiplash.
You laid out production rates for Airbus and Boeing that you've assumed in your guides. But relative to those production rates, could you talk about where your actual production is on MAX, A320, A350, 787? Are you above or below those rates that you've basically heard?
We span all of it. So it very much depends upon the relevant product line or the different products we have within product line. So some of them we are below, some of them we're above. And it's really difficult to get a complete picture of that. And some of it's borne by, I think, Boeing themselves deciding to, as an example, to reduce their inventory, which I note their CFO set a baseline to some $87 billion. So we see some of that. And just try to form a view about what's a number that we think is relevant to the financial guide that we've been willing to put forward. And so that you have the ability and any investor or potential investor has the ability to slide rule up and down relative to that. At the same time, it's no real commentary on what Boeing will produce.
We note their aspiration to meet Rate 38, which has been a consistent aspiration for the last two or three years, and so we are really hopeful that their production rates do increase to Rate 38, and indeed, the now murmured Rate 42 by the end of the year. I mean, that would be excellent news for Howmet and indeed the whole industry. We need and want Boeing to be successful because it makes a difference.
Moving over to the industrial side, you recently gave a lot more detail around IGT, your outlook there, your share there. So maybe talk a little bit about what you're expecting out of IGT over the near term. Oil and gas, oil and gas, I know was really good for you last year. So what are you expecting out of those two end markets over the near term? I know longer-term IGT sounds really good, but kind of near term.
In the very near term, so let's assume 2025, it's going to be a case of what additional that we can make, given that capacity does take time to come on stream now. Part of it is, I'm encouraged because we took a little bit of a flyer in 2024 and made a significant investment relative to prior investments in IGT over recent years and went above our replacement depreciation because of, let's say, the demand we thought was coming and whether that demand was for additional turbines or for additional spares. Since we made those commitments probably in the first half of last year, the picture's got brighter and brighter again. The existing fleet in the market of turbines is running harder, which is leading to additional spares demand.
And now our thoughts are consumed by the opportunity because of the buildout of data centers. And for us, it's all about the electricity demand to power all of those GPUs in the server racks and then also the electricity used to cool them down. And so the demand and the buildout and the tens, indeed hundreds of billions of dollars now being invested by the hyperscalers is truly extraordinary. Of course, we all had a bubble in January with the advent of DeepSeek and whatnot, but I think everybody's calmed down now and realizes that the fundamentals are going to continue. It'll be trimming around the edges is what I think we've concluded.
But compared to the, I think the notes I talked through in August of last year and then updated in a more significant way in November, the picture's only got better for us in that we talked on the day after the election for our earnings in November. And we're not yet ready to make an assessment of what that meant for the blend of renewable sources of energy compared to fossil fuel, which I really mean by natural gas as a source of input energy for electricity. And clearly, given the contours of energy policy by the new administration, then we think that natural gas is going to be an even bigger feature of the next few years. And therefore, the investment by turbine manufacturers has got better and our business.
In December, we made a reassessment of our strategic plan in the IGT segment and made the decisions that we would actually kick up our investments that we'd already planned in 2025. I talked a little bit about that on the earnings call. Was it last week or last stretch of time now, which week we're in? In terms of what does that really mean, we're building out new, actually putting new building or building additions, for example, in Japan and in Europe now, which were not part of our previous plans because we need the square footage to put in place the additional machinery that needs to be brought to bear. We've also placed orders and begun to build, for example, additional casting furnaces to enable that expansion to occur. We're seeking to do that in double quick time.
And I'll say getting around some of the, let's call it, government regulatory requirements in terms of, for example, building permits to enable us to be able to support the industries around the world. And so I am predisposed to be more optimistic that that's also some of that capacity will come on stream in 2026, which is necessary to meet the requirements that our customers have. And for us, I just want to say there's no one particular customer. We do serve the global industry. So whether it's Siemens or Mitsubishi Heavy or Ansaldo or GE Vernova, we supply all of those companies and say really clearly the number one in the market.
Pivoting back over to the commercial side and the engine side. So you have the upgraded blades on the 1A, 1B's coming, GTF Advantage's coming. So clearly you've picked up share or content. You've talked about these market share gains that you've been facilitating for that are still yet to come. So, as I've asked you this a couple of different ways. I'm going to try and do it more straightforward this time. So.
Did you get a good answer each time?
No, no.
Oh, no. Sorry.
I'm going to try different approaches.
Okay.
So for 2025, you've talked about, I guess, 12% plus kind of aero growth. Would you expect your aero growth to accelerate off that, not grow off that 12%, but your growth rate to be higher in 2026 as these market share gains materialize in a bigger way?
Of course, there's always going to be a blend of all the things that might happen in 2026. So what is, for example, the fundamental build of aircraft as an example, whether it's commercial or military. But I think all of us should have optimism that that's going to be healthy. We can't keep talking about supply chain constraints year after year. They have to be resolved. Or maybe most of them already are, and maybe they've been used as a bit of a fig leaf sometimes here or there. And so I do have optimism that we're going to break through on narrow-body build and wide-body build during this year and to see better times ahead.
On top of that, we will be introducing. We've just made the changeover, the LEAP-1A, and so we're manufacturing all of the newer blades to, I'll say, an improved robustness specification that our customer has wanted. I talked last week about the cutover on the GTF Advantage coming in. I've just said loosely, very loosely, mid-year because we do require sign-off and agreement by our direct customer, which in that case is Pratt & Whitney. And of course, they themselves require certification from the FAA regarding the engine. And that's both for the complete robustness packages for GTF have taken a bit longer. And then obviously, certification these days takes a little bit longer. And there's never any absolute certainty of any particular month of final sign-off and therefore when you can begin to make the cutover.
But we're in the stage now where we are manufacturing, but the numbers associated with the new Advantage level of engine are very modest because we haven't what I call mass tooled yet because there's no point in tooling for mass production until we've got the certifications. And so we're poised but not implemented yet to that. So maybe it's by mid-year, maybe it'll be early, but it could also be later. So you want to be a little bit cautious there. But year on year and we're going to 2026, that should be good. And likewise, I stand by my statement that the LEAP-1B is not a 2025 item at all. It's going to be a 2026 item in terms of a changeover. And again, it's going to be requirement and sign-off by GE. It's going to be a requirement sign-off by Boeing.
It's going to be the sign-off by the FAA. And there's a long line of things which need to be certified by the FAA for Boeing. And maybe that will accelerate under the new administration as a TBD. But at the same time, everything's about safety in the case of Boeing. And this change is more robustness rather than fundamental aircraft or engine safety because the engines are good.
I wanted to ask about the margin side, particularly at fasteners and at structure. So engine margins have been terrific. I think 800 basis points above where they were in 2019, even though volumes maybe are now back to kind of where we were close, somewhere close. The potential for fastener margins to exceed prior peak levels. And then on the structure side, the exit rate that we saw in the fourth quarter, is that the new normal for structures or should we dial back our expectations there?
If you'd asked me at the start of 2024, did I think we would have a margin exit rate for our fastener business, which was, I think, 27% plus? I wouldn't have put money on it. I'd have put money on all the things that we were doing that we were trying to achieve to make the margin improvement occur. But the one thing which I think has been an outstanding feature of our fastener business in 2024 was the rate of increase in productivity and throughput. And of that, I could not be more pleased because we've put through significant volume increases while actually having a lower employment level. Some of it's down to automation, which has been a continuing theme of what we've been trying to do in recent years. But a lot of it's just the basic improvement in process control and workflow and line balancing.
And so I've been really, really pleased by the outcome. Now, nothing ever moves in a straight line. It's not as though you suddenly start and everything goes at a constant line. So there's always times of plateau and there's times of moving forward. But if I look at the vectors around the fastener business, if we can hold on to that rate and if we get a benefit from additional blend of wide-body build, then that would be a positive for us. So maybe we get a positive without us actually doing much at all just on average mix because we know when we get a composite aircraft compared to a metallic aircraft, you do get a benefit. So where could we see that? It's going to be dependent upon what's the final build outlook for the 787, also the Airbus A350.
Then also any early builds of the 777X, which may occur in 2025 for 2026 delivery to customers. If that continues on, it's seemingly now a more positive path given the resolution it appears of the engine pylon problem of 2024. And so with that move to composite wings on 777 plus hopefully increased bills moving towards a 10 per month rate for 787 to a 12 gradually through 2027 for Airbus on the A350, those percentage increases would be higher than the relative percentage increase in narrow body, but both would be good. And therefore, that should assist with our fastener margin. Turning to structures again, I've been pleased with what we've been doing in the business.
First of all, given the lack of build in wide body, and then I'm going to call it the devastation that we had because of fundamental underbuild of the F-35 for several years, we were left with having to, or we were lucky to be burning off their bulkhead inventory as an example. And so we'd done well to hold on to a 14% EBITDA margin during that period of time. And the only fundamental thing that changed was the sanctions around Russian titanium for VSMPO. That's the only positive we had in all those years. We think that the bulkhead inventory was burned off and we began to line build with Lockheed. So one aircraft, a set of bulkheads became true in the fourth quarter, which was helpful to us. A little bit of pickup in wide body, some good throughput in our titanium business.
And that resulted in a significant improvement in margin up into the 18% level. And I've been convinced and been on record of saying I think this is a high teens margin business. So it should get there. And we got there in the fourth quarter now. Again, one quarter doesn't make a year, but the intent is not to go backwards, David. And so I'm optimistic that we're going to see some good margins in our structures business in 2025.
Great. Can we bring up the audience questions? Really quickly, if we can run through these. So if I think you have keypads, if you can use those and key in. We take all your responses and then we collate everything and compare across aerospace and defense and compare across all industrials.
I got to look behind me for the answers.
No, they're up there.
Do you own the stock?
Just go ahead and cycle through them.
Oh, those are number four. Better get moving. I've got to say that, David. If I'm not positive, then who will be?
I understand you're an owner.
Yeah, I'm an owner. It did get pointed out. I have a few shares.
Few shares.
I met and.
A few.
Yeah. So far, I haven't sold a single share, but given that I'm maybe in the next 10 years approaching retirement age, I think maybe I should for my wife.
10 years from now, everyone will be very happy.
But I got to, no, I got to say at some point, I got to take some money off the table. My wife wants something. She said she wants kind of a new car or two.
I've heard.
I don't know. New dress, new ring. And I better do that because if I don't, my second wife's a lot more expensive. So I've been told.
Here we go. Now we can see him here.
Yeah.
This is relevant now.
Yeah. What are you going to do with all this money? It's certainly true that our return rates of internal investments are really good. I know the answer to this one.
Here's the clock. I think there's one more. All right. I think that's it. John, thank you very much for the time.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thanks, everybody.