Thank you for standing by, and welcome to Intel Corporation's Business Update Call. At this time, all participants are in listen-only mode. After the speaker's presentation, there will be a question-and-answer session. To ask a question during the session, you'll need to press star one one on your telephone. To remove yourself from the queue, simply press star one one again. As a reminder, today's program is being recorded. And now I'd like to introduce your host for today's program, Mr. John Pitzer, Corporate Vice President, Investor Relations. Please go ahead, sir.
Thanks, Jonathan. I'd like to welcome everyone to today's webcast to discuss the press release issued after the close of market regarding our P rogrammable Solutions Group. I am joined today by CEO, Pat Gelsinger, and Executive Vice President and General Manager of DCAI, Sandra Rivera. In a moment, you will hear brief comments from both, followed by an abbreviated Q&A session. Before we begin, please note that today's discussion does contain forward-looking statements based on the environment as we currently see it and are subject to various risks and uncertainties. It also contains references to non-GAAP financial measures that we believe are useful to our investors. Our quarterly earnings release and most recent annual report on Form 10-K and other filings with the SEC provide more information on specific risk factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from our expectations.
They also provide additional information on non-GAAP financial measures, including reconciliation, where appropriate, to our corresponding GAAP financial measures. After our prepared comments, Pat and Sandra will be available to answer your questions. We ask that your questions focus on today's announcement and today's announcement only. We will be hosting our Q3 earnings call after the close of market on October 26th, and we will provide details on our results and outlook at that time. With that, let me turn things over to Pat.
Thanks, John, and thanks to all of you who were able to join the webcast on short notice. Over the last 2.5 years, Intel has been fully focused on our IDM 2.0 transformation, executing on our process and product roadmaps, establishing ourselves as a global at-scale system foundry for both wafer processing and advanced packaging, and positioning ourselves to benefit from the 5 superpowers propelling the semiconductor industry to $1 trillion in revenue by 2030. Specifically, the increasingly ubiquitous need for compute, connectivity, cloud-to-edge infrastructure, sensing, and of course, the opportunity we have to bring AI everywhere. A key part of our transformation has been looking for innovative ways to unlock value for all of our stakeholders, including the successful IPO of Mobileye and the investments by Bain Capital and TSMC into our IMS Nanofabrication business.
In combination, these two businesses are valued at over $35 billion and added roughly $4 billion in cash to our balance sheet. Beyond the financial benefits, our actions provided renewed focus, flexibility, and autonomy for both companies to pursue the significant opportunities ahead more aggressively. Against this backdrop, I am extremely pleased to announce this afternoon our plans to operate our Programmable Solutions Group as a standalone business and to appoint Sandra Rivera as Chief Executive Officer and Shannon Poulin as Chief Operating Officer. This decision gives PSG the mandate, focus, and resources to better capitalize on the attractive expected growth of FPGAs across data center and communications, and importantly, the multi-market embedded opportunity in the industrial, automotive, and aerospace and defense sectors.
While we have demonstrated the early evidence of the PSG repositioning, including 3 consecutive quarters of record revenue and the strengthening of our roadmap to address a broader set of customers and market segments with 11 new product launches year- to- date, this is just the beginning of the opportunity we have with PSG. Our actions today will accelerate our timeline to achieve those goals. The standalone business operations for PSG will begin effective January 1, 2024, and we expect to report PSG as a separate business unit when we release our Q1 fiscal year 2024 financials. Our intent is to bring private investors into the business in 2024 on the path to an initial public offering over the next 2-3 years. Both will serve to further drive the repositioning and value creation of PSG.
Importantly, even as we take on incremental investors, Intel will retain a majority stake in PSG and remain tightly aligned, including, and especially, PSG's growing relationship with IFS, building on PSG's highly successful supply resilience program pilot. We continue to see FPGAs as very complementary to our data center and networking offerings, and PSG will benefit at the high end as we reestablish transistor power and performance leadership on Intel 18A. In addition, as we bolster PSG's mid-range and low-end product offerings, we see strong synergies between the long product life cycles in industrial, automotive, and aerospace and defense sectors, and our IDM 2.0 strategy focused on utilizing our manufacturing assets over a much longer time period for higher rates of return. I am very excited for Sandra as she transitions into this new role and embraces these new challenges and opportunities.
Sandra has been instrumental in putting DCAI on the right path over the last two and a half years of leading the organization. We continue to see great traction for 4th Gen Xeon in the marketplace and are excited to have the official launch of 5th Gen Xeon, code-named Emerald Rapids, on December 14th. In addition, we are on track to launch Sierra Forest on Intel 3 in the H1 of next year, with Granite Rapids following shortly thereafter. Clearwater Forest, our first product on Intel 18A, is on track for 2025. Lastly, our pipeline for Gaudi continues to grow as we are seeing tangible traction in the strong and growing accelerate compute market being fueled by AI everywhere. This includes two recent collaborative announcements at our Intel Innovation event with Stability AI and Dell. Sandra's work with DCAI is only her most recent accomplishment.
She is a well-rounded, 23-year veteran of Intel and has driven critical and diverse efforts from human resources to networking. Sandra drove the significant growth of our Network Platforms Group, where she advanced breakthrough ways to integrate silicon and software to create greater customer value and evolve network infrastructure to Intel-based solutions. It is this breadth and consistency in results that makes me confident she is ready to take the next step and take on the CEO role of PSG. We have already begun an extensive search, both internally and externally, for Sandra's successor, and she will continue to lead DCAI and ensure a seamless transition as we bring in the new leader of the group. On a personal note, I am extremely thankful for all of Sandra's efforts to set up DCAI for many future successes.
Lastly, while today's announcement is about the great opportunity ahead for our Programmable Solutions Group, we also issued a press release setting our Q3 earnings date. We will report after the close of market on October 26th, with our usual conference call beginning at 2:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time. At the Deutsche Bank Technology Conference several weeks back, we noted that revenue for the quarter was tracking above the midpoint of our guided range. We had a strong quarter, and we look forward to having final numbers to share with you at the end of the month. With that, let me turn things over to the newly appointed Chief Executive Officer of our Programmable Solutions Group, Sandra Rivera, to make some additional comments.
Pat, thank you, and I'd like to add my welcome to everyone joining us on the webcast this afternoon. As Pat shared moments ago, today marks the beginning of an exciting new chapter for PSG. I'm honored to be entrusted with leading the business as we accelerate its repositioning to capture growth and improved profitability. I'm also thrilled to be joined by Shannon Poulin as my Chief Operating Officer. Together, we will be building out the leadership team in the coming weeks and months, including the addition of a Chief Financial Officer. I'm extremely excited by the opportunity to lead PSG, but also very proud of what the DCAI team has accomplished together over the last two and a half years. We've simplified and strengthened our product roadmap, and as Pat mentioned, are executing on or ahead of schedule on all of our key programs.
In addition, we've also started to show the market the value of our AI product portfolio, including our ability to address AI workloads across the compute continuum, including the largest, most challenging large language models. As we bring in a new leader, I remain confident that DCAI is on a clear path to recapture product and TCO leadership across all workloads and markets. It is also very clear that there are significant areas of tight collaboration with DCAI and NEX as we augment their core offerings with PSG's considerable FPGA IP. As one particular example, we're seeing growing interest in AI use cases for FPGAs to augment CPUs and other accelerators like Gaudi and Falcon Shores.
Areas in AI where FPGAs are well suited include data ingest at the front of the AI pipeline, data and traffic management with FPGA-based IPUs for offload, security acceleration, and edge-based training and inference workloads. I am equally excited to be able to give PSG the flexibility and resources to be able to go well beyond our original charter when we were acquired in 2015. While well represented in data center, we will increase investment and focus on parts of the FPGA market that represent significant growth, especially the industrial, automotive, aerospace, and defense sectors. As many of you know, these markets have very attractive growth profiles, longer product life cycles, and higher levels of profitability. Third-party sources estimate the FPGA market at roughly $8 billion in 2023, growing to $11.5 billion by 2027, or roughly a high single-digit compound annual growth rate.
As Pat mentioned, we've done a good job putting PSG on the right track, but there's still more work to be done. As of the end of Q2, our trailing twelve-month revenue was $2.9 billion, with gross and operating profits well above Intel corporate average. Over the next few quarters, we expect to navigate through a normalization of supply and demand caused by extreme COVID-induced cyclicality, even as we make some necessary investments in products and go-to-market capabilities. These actions will position us to gain share, especially in the most profitable markets over the next 2-3 years. We will discuss our long-term target model in more detail in early 2024, when we expect to unpack our PSG strategy. But longer term, we are driving the business to comparable FPGA growth margins in the mid-60s+, with operating margins in the mid-30% range.
Broadly speaking, we intend to achieve this by investing in the business to develop new products aimed at driving a better balance among our end markets, as noted previously. We also have significant opportunity to increase our presence and scale in distribution, a critical go-to-market channel for FPGAs. We will also have the benefit of leveraging our strong collaborative relationship with Intel, DCAI for data center, NEX for communications and networking, and of course, Intel Foundry for manufacturing. We see a strong appetite, especially in aerospace and defense, and industrial markets, for long-term supply agreements with domestically produced products in the U.S. and Europe, and we'll use that to create and capture value with our customers.
I look forward to interacting with many of you over the coming months and quarters as we strive to be good stewards of our owners' capital and unlock significant value for our customers, our employees, and our shareholders. With that, let me turn things back to John to moderate as we answer your questions on today's announcement.
Thanks, Sandra. We're now going to transition to the Q&A portion of our presentation today. We ask that each participant ask a single question with a brief follow-up, if appropriate. Again, please keep all questions germane to today's announcement. With that, Jonathan, can we have the first question?
Certainly. Our first question comes from the line of Timothy Arcuri from UBS. Your question, please.
Thanks a lot. Pat, I guess the first question is, how does this separation, I mean, I certainly understand that it helps you monetize the asset, but how does it help PSG compete better? Was PSG being starved for resources previously, and it'll have better resource allocation? Can you just talk about that? Thanks.
Yeah. Thank you. And, you know, we're, we're excited about today's announcement because we think it will unlock value. We've certainly heard that from our shareholders that, you know, boy, you know, this, this is an asset that we think makes sense to do what you've done with Mobileye and what you've done with IMS. So we've clearly gotten affirmation from shareholders there. But we also see that the business has underperformed, right? Particularly in the higher margin areas of the business, where we've been very focused on, you know, data center and other areas of the business. So we haven't been managing it as well as we could have.
We believe this will give the best of Intel, as you said, leveraging data center and networking, really benefiting from IFS, and that relationship is really emerging nicely now for the supply assurance program pilot, as we described. You know, coming off of COVID, we see that there was substantial interest in this type of program. But we also see that we have the opportunity to execute more effectively in the margin-rich, you know, mid and low-end areas of the business, with industrial, with military, aerospace, areas of the business that we've been underperforming and are better margin-rich, long-term opportunities, and having a more nimble execution model, you know, where this team is entirely focused on what we think is a great opportunity there. And Sandra, maybe if you want to add a bit.
Yeah. So, I mean, clearly, having the opportunity to operate with greater independence and more speed and agility in decision-making, and just turning our strategy to execution, while leveraging all the goodness of what we have in terms of the deep Intel relationship. Clearly, as Pat pointed out, leveraging the semiconductor manufacturing and packaging leadership that we have, both in Europe and in the U.S., which is very important for our customers, and particularly higher margin, stickier markets like aerospace, like military, certainly the work that we're doing in industrial and automotive. So, just the opportunity to build derivatives faster. As Pat mentioned, we already launched 11 of the 15 products we committed year to date.
We're going to be sampling products in that mid-range here in Q4, in the low end in the H1 of next year. And we can leverage that performance throughout leadership that we have in our fabric, the IP reuse that we have across the portfolio, and just moving to that chiplet architecture with faster derivatives, leveraging Intel packaging technology, will just allow us to create more value for our customers and deliver greater levels of innovation more quickly.
Tim, do you have a quick follow-up?
I do. I do, John. Yeah, thanks. Pat, I also wanted to clarify. I mean, PSG is going to be a separate entity. You had announced an unnamed new 18A, you know, foundry customer. So I just wanted to make sure that this is not that customer. So this customer is not PSG, correct?
No, this is not. Now, you know, I will say, we expect PSG is going to take full advantage of 18A over time. You know, we have a next-generation product line that is uniquely going to benefit from that. And as Sandra said, you know, we do think that high end of this product portfolio is going to be uniquely benefited there. But the announcement of our 18A prepay customer is entirely separate from this. And you know, as we've indicated there, we do expect to be able to make further announcements of 18A progress before the end of the year, but this is not that customer, and we do see the continued momentum.
You know, and as you saw just this week, the Intel 4 announcement or last week, and that we had in Ireland, was a great momentum statement for our continued five nodes in four years. And PSG properly going to be a big beneficiary of the foundry business and the supply assurance program or supply resilience program is a big deal, right? In post-COVID, you know, this ability to leverage long-term, sticky supply chains, you know, for, you know, customers who were severely impacted by that the last year, this is important.
Thanks, Tim. Jonathan, can we have the next question, please?
Certainly. One moment for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Ross Seymore from Deutsche Bank. Your question, please.
Hi, guys. Thanks for asking questions. Sandra, congrats on the new role. Just wanted to talk a little bit about or get some answers as to how quickly can you diversify back into that kind of broad-based core Altera business? When you bought the asset, it was really to double down on the data center side of things. Now you seem like you're kind of going back to the old school Altera side. Good news is the profitability, the long tail, et cetera, but those design wins take many years to develop. So just talk about how fast you can accelerate into those markets as a standalone entity, if you could, please.
Yeah, thanks, Ross. I'll start on that one. One of the points is that Shannon, right, and this has been a business under Sandra's leadership for the last couple of years. We're already well underway. You know, many of those products, and Sandra mentioned in her earlier comments that the mid- and low-end products are already in the pipeline, and those are part of some of the additional products that we expect to launch this year. I'll say this transformation is already underway. You know, another point I'd emphasize, right, and ask Sandra to amplify, will be around building up the channels, right? You know, here, we've been largely homogenized inside of the Intel channel structure.
You know, and particularly building up the distributors and bars here, you know, is another area of particular focus that we see as, you know, nicely accelerated by creating this clear operational separation under, you know, Sandra and Shannon's leadership. So Sandra, do you mind adding?
Yeah, and Ross, it's an excellent insight because as you know, that some of those longer tail, stickier, very profitable segments do have long design cycles. But when I came into the organization, PSG was part of DCAI. We saw the opportunity to restructure the roadmap to go after some of that mid-range and low-end, and we are going to be sampling the mid-range Agilex 5 products this quarter before the end of the year, and then moving into sampling that low-end, the first tranche of our low-end products, Agilex 3, in the H1 of 2024. And we have a lot of customer interest, and so the pipeline looks excellent.
The demand is high, and we believe we can have an end-to-end portfolio that leverages all the innovation that we're waterfalling down from the high-end, cloud and comps business, where we had initially focused when the asset came in. So design cycle is long, but it's not our first day. We've been driving the transformation now in that roadmap for the last couple of years, and are looking to really capitalize on it, on it now as a separate entity, ability to, you know, make decisions faster and execute, more quickly.
Ross, do you have a quick follow-up?
Yeah, I just wondered, on the manufacturing side, being part of IFS, what percentage of this PSG business is currently run at Intel, or any sort of metrics on how we should see that transitioning over time?
Yeah. We'll share a lot more of that in early 2024, but I will say that increasingly, our portfolio is biased towards leveraging the packaging innovations, the supply resiliency that the Intel Foundry nodes can provide to us. And so, increasingly, we are actually adopting more and more of the innovations and differentiation that we get from Intel Foundry. You know, some of the historical products, which still have a lot of long life, are on older nodes.
And I'd also add, Ross, that, you know, the PSG business will have opportunity and will, will be encouraged to continue to leverage, other foundries as well, particularly where they have unique technology offerings, you know, that aren't part of the IFS, portfolio. That said, you know, following this COVID experience, we see enormous customer interest in a more secure, resilient supply chain in North America. And you can just imagine the industrial customers, the aerospace, defense-based customers. There's a lot of interest in this, so we really think we're setting this up, you know, to really have unique advantage, leveraging Intel, but also the flexibility to build the best products using other foundries where appropriate.
Thank you, Ross. Jonathan, can we have the next question, please?
Certainly. One moment for our next question comes from the line of Aaron Rakers from Wells Fargo. Your question, please.
Yeah, thanks, for doing the call and taking the questions. So I guess the question I have is, you know, kind of flipping Ross's question around: Can you talk a little bit about the data center and AI opportunity, in the context of that $2.9 billion of trailing twelve-month revenue? Any help of how large data center specifically is and kind of the growth and opportunities, that you see evolving for these FPGAs, you know, in that area?
Yeah. So as I mentioned, there's a lot of opportunity in the data ingest pipeline. We are seeing a huge interest. As we shared, we have been really focused on both the cloud and comms, part of the overall market segments, and there, where we see the ability to use the FPGA IP for that security acceleration, for that network acceleration, for the AI acceleration, the data ingest pipeline acceleration phase of the overall AI workflow. So in many ways, we are tapping into this tailwind that we're seeing in terms of the build-out of AI. And we are going to be able to leverage those strong relationships that we've built with the cloud service providers over the previous, you know, eight years as we've been focused there, to, you know, ride that wave and to increase the opportunity.
I can talk more about in 2024, just the sizing and scoping of that, but I can say simply that we are in the early days, and that does present a big growth opportunity for the overall portfolio.
Aaron, do you have a quick follow-up?
Yeah, and maybe just as a quick follow-up, if I can. You know, in the realm of the FPGA market, not just you, but the competitive landscape, there's been a lot of discussion around kind of, you know, backlog, you know, fulfillment, backlog normalization. So I guess, you know, similar question in the context of the $2.9 billion, you know, can you help us understand where we're at as far as normalizing that backlog, you know, and the growth rates that you've seen over the last couple of quarters relative to, you know, maybe that normalizing growth in the, you know, high single-digit range?
Yeah, we do expect that we're going to get back to more normalized cycles, and so, we expect that to come back down over the next quarter or beginning of the next quarter, because we have now satisfied most of the backlogs that we had, and I think we're gonna see that from our peers as well. And as we get back to more of those normal cycles, we're going to be, you know, in that range of more in the $2 billion range that we will see going forward and build out from there.
And just, you know, the way you, you know, there was, you know, a bit of a, you know, a cyclical high in the industry, you know, which cyclicality is, not an unexpected thing in semiconductors. But clearly, this is a ultra high in the context of COVID, particularly for the FPGA sector. So there will be a bit of normalization there, Aaron, you know, and that's what, Sandra's communicating. But as we do, you know, focus on higher profit, you know, long, tail, businesses, leveraging the unique position with, IFS, as we've said, and, right, get very focused on getting to industry metrics, you know, for profitability in terms of gross margin and operating margin, as Sandra said, and putting this on a path to an IPO in the next, 2-3 years.
You know, we think this is a great value creation opportunity for the market and clearly doing a better job to service a range of customers that we've been underserving, of late.
Thank you, Aaron. Jonathan, can we have the next question, please?
Certainly. One moment for our next question. And our next question comes from the line of Christopher Rolland from SIG. Your question, please.
Hi, first one's probably for Pat. I guess some housekeeping. First of all, is there a finer point on timing around the IPO? I know it's market dependent, probably. And then, you know, Mobileye, Venous, you know, how do we think about other assets at Intel, and are there some other possibilities of IPOs as well?
Yeah. So on the timing of IPO, what we said is we expect to bring an external investor in, to partner with us in 2024, and we'll begin that process fairly rapidly. And we said we'll start operating as a separate business by Q1 of next year, and we'll report that as part of our Q1 earnings call. You know, where we'll give you a proper reporting of this as a separate business then. And I expect the IPO takes 2-3 years, as I said. You know, part of that is getting 3-year financials in place, getting the perimeter defined, the separation done, obviously having external investment partner. You know, we'll be working closely with them to help us get, you know, to that point in time.
So I'd say you should expect a fairly normal timeline for us to get this in shape, you know, for the IPO. And with that, you know, we do expect that market conditions will dictate when and how we do it. You know, we want to realize a good outcome for all of our shareholders as we do that, but we think two to three years is a good general timeline for that. You know, this is the third that we've done. You know, we've done Mobileye very successfully. We've done IMS, our mask writing business, very successfully. You know, we believe this will be very successful.
You know, we don't have any, other specific things to speak about at this point in time, but I think we've demonstrated the real focus on, you know, value creation for our shareholders, best leveraging our assets, you know, exposing them to the marketplace, you know, and giving you, transparency on how we're running the business, for the future as well. So I think this is, you know, the next step in that, journey.
Chris, you have a quick follow-up?
Yeah. For Sandra, perhaps. I didn't quite follow. You mentioned the low and mid ranges for FPGA. Did you say that you already had invested, or you're doubling down in those products to hit auto and industrial? Thank you.
Both. We started investing two years ago as we refactored the roadmap, and we are sampling the mid-range products here in Q4 of 2023, and we will be sampling our low-end products in the H1 of 2024. So we're well on our way, and because of our chiplet strategy and because of the tile-based architecture, we're actually able to deliver a lot of fast, you know, fast, SKUs and derivatives off of the main line of the portfolio. So we're pretty excited about building out that roadmap and being able to address some of those higher margin, longer tail, sticky, segments that we spoke about, the defense, automotive, industrial, and aerospace sectors.
Thank you, Chris. Jonathan, I think we have time for one last question.
Certainly. One moment for our final question today. Our final question comes from the line of William Stein from Truist Securities. Your question, please.
Great. Thanks so much for taking my question. I do have a question about the long-term margin structure. I believe you highlighted a target of mid-30s% operating margin, and as I'm looking over my old Altera model, it looks like their historical target was 32%-33%, but they were pretty consistently in the mid-20s. Can you talk about, you know, but one thing I'd highlight is, on the gross line, they were in the high 60s, so it implies that you're going to do quite a bit better in terms of operating efficiency, and I'm hoping you can help us understand what will be different in the go-forward company versus the heritage company in that regard?
Yeah, and I'll start and ask Sandra to help further. You know, simply put, you know, we've looked over the historicals in the industry as well as for our business, as well as how we're planning to, you know, realign the business strategy going forward. And we do believe that we get to industry norms in the sector as we align our business, as we've laid out, with a full portfolio of products. You know, the more margin rich sensitive areas of the business, the supply assurances, you know, as we build those out, and getting the business more efficient as well, as we focus very singularly, you know, on this business operations to meet the industry expected and norms.
So overall, we're gonna set those targets in place, you know, and I believe, Sandra and Shannon, you know, are fully signed up to go drive to get to those targets. And as we already said, we're well on our way. You know, we've been underway in improving the business performance here. You know, we're now multi quarters into that, journey and feeling a good progress, against it. Some of that will be accentuated in the near term by this harsh cyclicality, that we go through, but beyond that, you know, we believe we're getting this to, industry-relevant metrics as we march to an IPO in 2-3 years.
Yeah, Pat, I would just add that, you know, leadership products command leadership margins, and we feel really strong about the portfolio that we have, the strengthening roadmap, and the opportunity to invest, especially in those high margin sectors. And given that differentiated IP that we have, the leadership performance per watt that we have in our fabric, you know, we shipped our 10 millionth chiplet already, so a tile-based chiplet architecture that leverages Intel leadership packaging. We just think we have a differentiated asset portfolio that will drive leadership financial results for our shareholders.
Will, do you have a quick follow-up?
Yeah. Thank you, John. There had been quite a bit of debate historically as to what compute structure was going to be the, the, maybe the choice that would be most common for server acceleration for training workloads. And what I'm observing is an increasing focus on Gaudi for that application within AI. And Sandra, when you responded to this question earlier about AI applicability for FPGA, you talked a lot about pipeline. Is that the distinction that investors should try to understand, that that's sort of where customers are coalescing around using GPUs or maybe even ASICs for the core sort of training workloads, and these products, these FPGA products, as it relates to AI, more for the pipeline?
Yeah. So our portfolio really fits in nicely in terms of that overall AI workload, and as I mentioned, in the front end of the pipeline. But it's also just anything that we're doing in that security acceleration, network acceleration, data ingest, acceleration. So all of those functions are going to be part of any AI workflow. And so we have an opportunity to really be a complementary capability to an accelerator, a CPU, a GPU, all the heterogeneous architectures that are gonna take on the majority of the model training and deployment, while we are doing a lot of that front end processing as a co-processing capability with the main CPU, GPU, or AI accelerator.
Thank you.
Yeah, thank you. And, we appreciate everyone joining us for this call today, obviously on a short notice. And, you know, thanks for your attention to this. You know, we do think this is, you know, just good news, right? As we're, you know, exposing our PSG business, and that opportunity more aggressive and the value creation that has, both internally and, externally. As we said today, we look forward to our Q3 earnings call, and, look forward to that conversation to have with you at the end of the month. Thank you, and, look forward to that next conversation, and take care.
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for your participation in today's conference. This does conclude the program. You may now disconnect. Good day!