Good morning, everybody. Welcome again to our 32nd Annual Industrials, Transportation, Airlines, Key Leaders Conference. I'm Ken Hoexter, B of A's Air Freight and Surface Transportation and Marine Shipping Analyst. Next up, we welcome J.B. Hunt, we welcome Spencer Frazier, EVP of Sales and Marketing, Stacy Griffin, SVP of Intermodal, and Brad Delco, SVP of Finance and IR from J.B. Hunt Transport Services. We welcome Spencer and Stacy each for their first time to our conference. Mr. Delco's fifth time, so you are halfway to the 10-timer award. I think you might get a nice jacket, bottle of wine, who knows?
Green jacket?
Green jacket, definitely not. Definitely not, unless you're hosting. This is J.B. Hunt's 17th time attending our conference in the 24 years we've hosted. Glad to have you with us here, and thank you for your continued support. Spencer or Stacy, I'll throw it open to the two of you. Let me open it up to you for your initial thoughts on the state of the market. I mean, so much has happened, not just year to date, but in the last weekend, a couple of days. What three key things would you like us to take away from today?
Yeah, Ken, I'll start. Thanks for having us here. I'm glad to be on stage with you and just also talk about what's going on. It has been a pretty exciting year so far, and definitely things have played out, some of them the way we thought they would, and others not so much. I would say three things that would be important for this group to know. When I lead our commercial strategy and talk to our customers, they're looking right now in this period of change and kind of volatility just to make sure that they're working with people that have agility to serve their needs as things continue to develop. We do believe there are some things changing, and we can get to that later based on the announcements from Sunday night. That really kind of plays well into J.B. Hunt.
Hunt's business model and really across all of our services, how we can take care of them. The other thing, so number two, is really around cost. Our industry continues to experience an inflationary cost environment and has for three years been in a deflationary rate environment. That puts pressure on all of us. Specifically to J.B. Hunt, we're focused on lowering our cost to serve while improving our margins. That's something that we all have to do for the health of our company and the industry. Then third, stay on cost for a minute. Our customers also are looking for productivity. They're looking for ways to reduce their expenses.
That is where we have to come up with new ways to serve them and help them beat their budgets and make sure that our value proposition stands out to where we can do that and drive the margins that we need. Agility, cost, cost. Stacy, you got anything you want to add to that?
I think I'll add on to the cost and the cost because that is a prevailing problem for our industry. For our customers, when they're looking for ways to control cost and to lower their transportation cost, a shift from highway to intermodal is a shortcut to achieve some cost reductions in whatever market we're in. We are seeing our customers lean into that, trying to control where they're at today and get ahead of where they know the market is going from a highway side.
Stacy, let's focus on load growth on the intermodal, right? You were kind of adamant, or at least Brad was, in telling us that the load growth in the quarter was not led by pre-shipping based on your customer conversations. Given that backdrop and the data we see, are we seeing, given the air pocket that's hitting right now, do you still feel like that was not pre-shipping? Was it pre-shipping? Are we going to see a big catch-up phase now that we have this settlement in a few weeks?
I think this will be a two-parter. I'll take the first part, and I'll let Spencer take the second part. When you look at our first quarter results and our double-digit growth in the East, that's not pull forward. That double-digit growth in the East is largely supported by the underlying service that both J.B. Hunt and with our rail providers that we're providing to our customers and that opportunity that shippers are embracing to convert from highway into intermodal. I think our growth in the East kind of contradicts a bit the pull-forward concept. What does that look like and the air pocket? I'll let Spencer speak to that.
Yeah. I'll also go back to every customer's unique. Every supply chain is unique. Every customer in this period of the last 60 days has been managing their business and supply chain at a SKU level, looking at should they pause, should they bring things forward, put it in a bonded warehouse, should they change country of origin sourcing. They've been running plays like that over the last few weeks. When you think about is there going to be an air pocket, I also want to make sure and really disconnect the timing of the international supply chain and freight flows versus the domestic supply chain and timing that customers use to meet demand. Those two things are distinctly different. A lot of business comes in at different times. It goes into storage.
Sometimes it might cross-dock in the day or transload in the day. A lot of it goes into storage that gives them the agility to meet demand at different locations at different times. Is there an air pocket from an ocean freight perspective? Obviously, you can see the data and probably suggest that's going to happen. Will that take place today over the next six weeks? Likely. Are there going to be different waves of freight? There are a lot of customers that ran plays and put things into bonded warehouses. As of 12/01, tomorrow morning, that can change, and that can start to move and create a wave of demand. How big that will be, I don't know. Is there business that customers with some of their SKUs paused the button on production as well as shipping and inventory has stacked up in China? Yes.
Is that moving today? Likely. When will that hit? Six to eight weeks later. Maybe that is wave two. Really, the third wave, I think, is the one that we are most normally associated with and consider associated with fall peak retail season. I would anticipate that to happen too. All of our customers are running different plays, have been doing that at the SKU level. The change Sunday night allowed them to think differently and I think could possibly see that pocket on the oceanfront, but maybe close some of that gap in the next few weeks domestically.
Spencer, let's just kind of pull that answer, right? What are you hearing from customers now on their outlook, right? When I look at our truck shipper survey, it hit low levels into the 40s we had not seen for years, in terms of their confidence level, their outlooks. Yet here we are, things have changed. The world has changed. Have you had recent catch-up conversations in the last day or two?
Yeah, yeah.
In the last 20 minutes?
Yeah, we are talking to them frequently. I guess one thing that was a little bit more of a concern for me above the tariff issue was some macro challenges to demand. I'll say consistently, really from March 1, that deadline to April 1 through today, our customers have talked about the health of the consumer and actually being engaged. I think that's a function of employment. Really maybe that psychological impact of the tariff and the headlines did not trickle down into the consumer. We would say that the customer is still engaged also across industries. My macro concern has kind of drifted away. Now, does that mean that there's a demand catalyst, Darren, in the face to drive incremental consumer demand? I'm not saying that. I think things are at a steady state at the moment.
How that kind of translates into domestic volumes from here, we'll have to see.
Just to clarify that, you're saying that the customer is better than not fading. It's showing some strength there?
Yeah, I think it's steady.
Steady?
Yeah, steady state. Yep.
Okay. All right. Stacy, intermodal loads up 8% in the first quarter off of, I guess, easy flat comp. The intermodal and rail seem to be winning some share despite spot rates that are sub-cost for truckers. You talked about the cost-benefit, good service for the railroads winning. How do you win in that backdrop when trucking is at these levels?
We win because we are going to our customers from a position of strength with our operational excellence. We have a strong value proposition to our customers inside of intermodal, but inside of all of J.B. Hunt in terms of being able to solve for them in a mode-agnostic way. That is helping them convert. We have a highway line, but we're helping them convert freight from over the road to intermodal where that best fits what they're looking for from a balance of cost, transit, capacity. That's powerful for us to do that. The underlying rail service across all of our rail providers is better today than it has been in certainly the COVID area where it was not good. It was not supportive of what our customers need. We've got a long run of really good service, which is bringing confidence back to our customers.
That's powerful. We talked about in the East where we grew close to 13%. Normally, growth in the East is fueled by high truck rates and high fuel. Those things did not exist in Q1, and we still have strong growth. Our customers are planning for a different day and a different cost structure, and the service supports it.
I want to dig into the share gains, right? Just because something throws me off. It used to be I'd take Burlington's carload, intermodal carloads and Norfolk, put them together. You'd add like a couple of 500, 600 basis points, you'd get J.B. Hunt's growth levels, right? It was now I know they have a mix of international versus domestic and obviously being domestic moves. If I just think about the math of what they're putting out, right? Burlington's carloads were up 9% in the first quarter against a mid-teens growth a year ago, so tough comps. Norfolk was up a smaller 3.5%. Yet your eastern traffic was up 13%. How do I—I mean, you're a major participant on their network. Is it just share wins? Is it we're not seeing the domestic international mix with the railroads?
What is the difference particularly in the East?
One thing I want to point out across all, and it's actually more relevant to the BNSF, is the railroads count the moves of empties. We do not count those. When we talk about our growth, we are not counting our empty moves. The railroads do. It is a mix of their freight, the things outside of what we call intermodal. Here is the other key. Inside of our network, we separate between transcon and eastern network. Our Mexico business is in our eastern network numbers. We are growing out of Mexico. If we are going from Mexico City to Chicago, that is not touching the Norfolk Southern. That is part of our eastern network growth.
Got it.
That's helpful.
I'd also say too, Ken, I mean, that relationship has probably broken down over time too. I mean.
Definitely.
Stacy did a good job of calling out Mexico is in our eastern network. Movement of empties. Railroads get paid to move empties. We do not get paid to move empties. It is a cost for us. They also have parcel. They also have LTL. You also have international. I think there have been some publicly known shifts of international freight moving between carriers. I think that throws some of those numbers off in terms of trying to correlate them.
It definitely has.
Broken in terms of what it used to be. It used to be an easier look from weekly numbers to see how J.B. Hunt looks.
I would also say too, I mean, think about the diversification of our network. I mean, we use both railroads in the East, CSX, Norfolk Southern. We've been very complimentary of the service we've had for quite some time. Utilize BNSF in the West. We're using both Ferromex and CPKC in and out of Mexico. We have had a long relationship with CN. We have a breadth and depth in terms of the rail providers we're utilizing to provide service to customers too.
Stacy, Darren recently mentioned the old 1.8 tons - 2 tons per box per month might not be relevant going forward. Just want to understand why. Why can you not get back there? Is it just because you have so many boxes in storage that you can use, or is there something about your network and utilization that changes that dynamic?
I would say the key thing is PSR. When the railroads implemented PSR a few years ago, it slowed down the movement. That basically took turns away from us.
Because they're running the trains on a schedule as opposed to just leaving when the yards are full. Okay.
They're adding time.
Transit time.
Transit time. They've added time to the schedules to produce a more consistent solution, which is powerful. Speed is important. Consistency is a lot more important for most of our customers because that allows better planning.
Better planning, better execution, better customer service. Does that structurally, fundamentally change the ROI on a per-box purchase for you?
I'm going to let Brad answer ROI questions.
I would let Stacy answer that question and say when we think about how we price to customers, we're thinking about we have an asset. We need that asset to generate a certain amount of revenue, to generate a certain amount of no-path, to make sure we're getting the appropriate return. We would ultimately see that reflected in how we price and how the industry has to price intermodal. I don't know that our outlook on margins have changed. I don't think our outlook on what sort of returns we think are appropriate for us in the industry, given our scale and given some of the advantages we have. I think all of that gets worked into how we price our network to make sure we're generating the right returns.
Okay. Let me stick one more on Stacy. The revenue per load was down sequentially in the first quarter. How do we decipher fuel surcharge versus mix impact of more east versus west? I guess, is there any way you can guide us thoughts on core pricing and if that mix impact of just continuing to grow in the east continues going forward?
You used the word guide. That's a watch out for me.
But, I used the word guide.
You did.
Guidance. Guidance.
It's so close, right?
Process.
We shared in our earnings release that revenue is down too, but ex fuel one. We forgot that, right? Fuel is absolutely part of that impact. With our growth inside of the eastern network, eastern network loads are shorter length haul, lower revenue per load, and that's going to have an impact. We have shared that we set out very transparently. We set out inside of this bid season, really not unlike any other, but to focus on repairing our margin. Easiest path to that is with price, right? To improve our network balance. That is impacting. That shows up in mix as well and growth overall. We are having marginal success in our head hauls of improving price. We are having success in improving our network balance. You think about it.
A revenue per load to go from Chicago to LA is very different from LA to Chicago. That shows up in that mix as well.
Yeah, certainly. Darren mentioned margins needed repair, but only modest success in repairing rates while retaining business. Is that commentary indicating that it's hard to retain your own business? Is that why you highlighted lost existing business? Maybe thoughts, maybe just a little clarification or understanding of that.
I'll take that because.
You're afraid of what I might say?
No. By the way, this is Stacy's first conference, and we're really glad she's here because she does price about one-third of all domestic intermodal volumes. I thought it was really important for her to share her perspective on the market and what we're seeing. We made that comment on our earnings call, hey, really to articulate the point that Stacy just made. This is our strategy. We want to get as much rate as we can. Number two, we really need to focus on getting better lane balance. That drives out a cost for us while providing us opportunities to generate revenue to reposition our box into a head haul lane to generate obviously a healthier rate in that head haul lane. Three is to grow the business.
We wanted to make sure we articulated to our investors to say, "Hey, we're being very disciplined in that strategy in terms of trying to grow." To prove that we are being cost disciplined, the example that I've shared is Darren Field, you use different terminology than me, but Darren Field walks into Stacy's office and says, "You have to prove to me that you're really testing the limits on where rates can and will go and what is acceptable in the market. We're in a competitive business. We have to price to the market and to our value proposition." The way that Stacy proves that, she says she lines up carcasses, which means you haven't pushed rates hard enough until you lose some business.
I think we just wanted to articulate to the market, Stacy's been working very hard to push the market, and she's proven that by losing some business. That just, I think hopefully should be a good indication to the audience and the investors that we are really trying hard to push the market and make sure we're getting the right value for what services we're providing.
Yeah. Ken, I got to add something here. I appreciate that perspective, but also you talk about retention. Stacy mentioned our focus and one of our number one priorities for the organization is operational excellence. That creates a unique value proposition that we do have to make sure that we get the right price and return to deliver. From a retention perspective, our retention and customer count in volume and revenue is the highest it has ever been across all of our business segments. That would not have taken place without that number one priority in the focus on operational excellence. While we are going to continue to push our value proposition, that operational excellence really is what is going to drive that.
Spencer, let's follow up on that because Darren noted success in early bid season. Are there any updates now that we're mostly done through the bid season in terms of change of rate levels through the process? I mean, I can't imagine how you position that for when things can change so wildly like we saw over the weekend, and yet you're thinking about the whole year ahead rather than each week to week. Did you see smaller bids, postponing of bids, normal course action?
Yeah. I'll say from a customer perspective in the bid season that really goes from Q3 through Q2, we've seen the normal course of action, as you mentioned, from a timing perspective. As things kind of progress, we anticipate there to be smaller mini bids if there is some chaos or dislocation in the market. I'd say things have planned and executed on a normal cadence with our customers. I don't know if you have any comments on that.
No, it's been fairly normal. That's one of the, I think, frustrating for some people is that there's so it's been so much noise and so chaotic these last few months, but that hasn't really entirely translated into how our customers are going about executing their business, particularly inside of their transportation planning.
When you talk about the carcasses walking away from some businesses, who's been, is there anybody being aggressive in winning that? Is that going to truck? Is it other IMCs? Where's the business that we should look to?
I'd say it's less truck supported by the intermodal service. We're seeing less of the truck. It is other IMCs. It is other competitors. It's no different this year than every year. I mean, we participate in a competitive bid season every single year. We're bringing our value proposition to our customers as our competitors. I do scratch my head sometimes because of where margins are for the industry that we're not seeing faster movement.
Faster movement of.
It's a recovery. Margin repair.
Okay. Because some are willing to run on thinner margins for longer than you would have thought, or that they're staying in business for.
I think it's a way of saying when you look at our performance, we've had industry-leading volume growth at industry-leading margins. It is surprising to see where some of the margins are in our industry and they're not being more disciplined.
Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about that, right? I guess maybe a Kilo question overall, but happy to hear your answer, which would be you posted a 1% decline in revenues in the first quarter, but 8% decline in operating income. Is that a timing, a weather issue, or a cost a lot more fixed than you would have thought? How would you kind of step back and think about that?
I mean, I think we've heard Spencer talk about it. You've heard us talk about it. The industry has been in an environment where we've seen deflationary pressure on price and inflationary pressure on cost. Keep in mind that the down 1% revenue for our company included plus 8% volume growth in intermodal. We came off of an all-time record volume quarter in Q3, beating that in Q4. Obviously, first quarter seasonality, we're not going to beat a fourth quarter, but still the strongest first quarter intermodal volume. We have done a good job of continuing to grow in a difficult environment to help us leverage some of our fixed costs. You could look at the P&L. I think we've done a really good job of managing costs that are really within our control.
One of the difficult and frustrating ones, and I do not love speaking to it, but is insurance and claims. You go back three or four years ago, it was 1.5% of our revenue in terms of a cost line item. In the first quarter, it was 3.3%. We have lost 180 basis points on the insurance and claims line that is really made up of, call it insurance premiums and our experience and how claims develop and settle. That is an industry problem. That is something that will need to be recovered through a rate cycle. I think there are two ways companies can approach how to deal with that. They can double down or triple down and focus on safety. You have heard us and Nick Hobbs talk about what we have done with our safety performance.
2023 was a record year for us in terms of DOT preventable accidents per million miles. We improved upon that in 2024. In our last earnings call, we said that our first quarter of 2025 was better than 2024. The first quarter is always the most difficult quarter to execute on a safety performance, certainly compared to a full prior year. That, to me, is a very J.B. Hunt way of attacking a problem with long-term focus. The other way we could attack that is really just allow our shareholders or owners to take on more of that risk by reducing our coverage. We have not taken that approach. To your question about, yeah, we still have inflationary cost pressures. We are addressing those.
We're driving a lot of productivity and efficiency within our operations, but there's still some inflationary costs that we really do need a rate cycle to help us address.
Yeah. Just quickly, I want to add, there's a couple of things. We are focused on making sure that we price our business in a way that can get the return based on the value we create for customers. Also, we're not done on the cost front. We're never done. The safety is a great example, but we are extremely focused on lowering our cost to serve. Doing that, not just short term, but structurally over the long term and really looking at every aspect of our business, what's necessary to serve our customers at a high level and what's not. If it's not, then what can we do to get rid of that cost? I want to make sure that's an area of focus for our executive team that we're working on every single day. That doesn't go away.
Yeah. Yeah. All right. Question for either Stacy or Spencer. Must assure them up, Brad. But historically, we've seen a flattish intermodal operating ratio between the first quarter and second quarter and a 50 basis point improvement for the overall company. I know you don't forecast, but is there anything that stands out in terms of seasonality or expenses that we should recognize that could impact the relative performance? Stacy, just say no.
Yeah, I'm not answering that question.
I mean, Ken, I think the biggest unknown is, are we going to see an air pocket or not? I think that I'm glad Stacy said it, but just to reiterate it, there's been a lot of volatility on the news, a lot of different headlines. If you did not look at a TV or if you did not look at tickers going across and just looked at what was happening in transportation, I think you would see it's been a little bit more business as usual relative to the volatility on the screens.
Yeah. I talked about on our earnings call, our customers at that moment in time were waiting for the dust to settle. It was almost like the next day they started pushing buttons, pausing the talk about the bonded warehousing, also looking at different sourcing options. They're also doing that today at a SKU level. They're really looking at what can I do? We're trying to connect with them on their forecasts over the next week, the next six weeks, and obviously the rest of the quarter. Forecasting that demand from a domestic perspective is what we're really having conversation on right now.
I know you guys tried to quantify the international exposure. It was more specific to China. Is there an overall, what is coming in from international? Thinking about the flow through of the air pocket, because it sounded like given your more domestic or transloading, it does not impact it, but there still is that, as you mentioned, the potential for the air pocket on your customers. What is the exposure?
Yeah. I think Darren kind of mentioned the numbers around 30% or so of our business originates off the West Coast. You can say 30% or so of that comes from China. You could extrapolate that out to, is our business impacted 9%-ish or something? That is to be determined, but that is also to be determined based on the timing of the international move versus domestic. We will have to see. I do think that some of our customers have taken a little bit more of an aggressive stance and kept a constant flow. Others still played in that wait-and-see mode. That is what gives us a little more variability than that number if you just put the two together.
That was a no, we're not commenting on seasonality or no, there's no seasonality difference in McDonald's. All right. Switching over to the digital marketplace. Good idea to transition. I would say too, I mean, Ken, you know that sometimes I like expressing the passionate passion for the responses that I give to you sometimes. But we've talked about this pull forward. I think we're trying to be logical to say that, hey, there are some customers that may have done some of that. If they have, that means that there should be warehouses stuffed with inventory on the West Coast that will still need to advance and move.
I think to your question, maybe it's a week or two or three weeks from now or four weeks from now, we have better insight to say, hey, we're not seeing the air pocket because our customers have brought in inventory and we're going to be still moving that inventory. That will be enough to bridge. We could see that. By that point, we've seen additional cargoes land on the West Coast and start wanting to move additional freight. I mean, it's still a lot of uncertainty, but I like, and I've shared this before, the volatility we've seen in imports and comparing that to the rail volumes you referenced earlier, those are pretty nicely correlated. If you look at Hunt's volumes over that period of time, it's a lot smoother.
I just think that's something to be mindful of when you think about, hey, we know there's a relationship between international intermodal and imports. It's a more direct and probably more timely correlation. When you look at J.B. Hunt's monthly volumes that we've given you, you've seen it's a lot smoother than the volatility that you may see in the weekly port reports or whatever everyone's tracking.
Spencer, maybe just a little bit on the digital marketplace. ICS, JB360 for a quick second here. ICS continues to improve. Its losses have greatly shrunk its employee base. Is this a move? You're moving back to profitability quicker. Just a side note, the 360 marketplace was down to 34% of the brokerage, whereas two years ago it was 65% of the brokerage. I would have imagined digitization would have gotten larger, not smaller.
Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that question. As far as the momentum inside ICS, we still have that today. Regarding the marketplace and automation, when you think about what we did specifically coming into the first part of 2024 and throughout the first half, really focusing on keeping our customers' freight safe and secure, we did reduce the level of automation to protect our customers' freight from cargo theft and added more manual intervention. Today, I would shift the automation story to really doing what we can to automate and validate carrier credentials that a carrier is who they say they are, eliminate fraud, and empower our people to know that in a way that then still allows them to execute the business.
I think you've probably seen a trough from an automation perspective, and then the advancements in leveraging AI to do that fraud detection is where we really spent a lot of our money over the last several quarters inside ICS to really put us in a spot to go forward.
It's helpful. I'm just going to jump over to different parts of the company, right? So dedicated fleet, you targeted adding 800-1,000 trucks in capacity sales, offset by fleet losses through the second quarter. Any way you want to quantify what's going on in terms of growth versus the fleet losses and how that was a big discussion for the quarter?
Yeah. I'll just say really quickly, I think Brad mentioned the kind of losses ending really through June and July. That's still on track. Also, when we think about our pipeline, our pipeline's as strong as it's ever been. We're looking to make sure that we can convert those and have our goals achieved from a growth side. Anything else you'd add there, Brad?
Yeah. I mean, the only real change in tone there, we still talked about seeing net fleet growth this year. The 800-1,000 trucks, it's an annual target that is on a net basis. We used to talk about it at 1,000-1,200 on a gross basis. I just think it was cleaner for us to talk about it on that perspective. We still are targeting to see net fleet growth this year.
The one thing that we did soften our tone on is growth in revenue and operating income in DCS for this year. The reason being is just the timing of when these deals close with all the uncertainty we've had in the market. Signing up on these five-year contracts, maybe they've been pushed or delayed a month or two. Given that each of our dedicated deals has about a six-month startup window, if we're not at a point where we're seeing positive contribution dollars yet, some of that benefit may flow more into 2026 versus 2025. Overall, I would say I think the performance of our dedicated portfolio and business has continued to shine very brightly relative to our industry.
I think we'll get back on a pretty good growth track once we get past these known losses that we've been speaking to for quite some time at this point.
Certainly some of your dedicated peers talk about the increased competitiveness in the market and what that's doing to pricing. Stacy, let me come back on intermodal. Just understand. You've got 30% of the capacity stacked. I asked a question, I think, on the call about why not unload more assets, get rid of some of it so you can—does that make the bounce back quicker? Maybe just to throw out thoughts of, wouldn't it, if there were less assets standing on the sideline, couldn't that enhance? Of course, you've already paid for it. You've got the argument of, why would I get rid of it if it's already paid for and depreciated? How do you think about the market as it prepares for an upturn? Is it more hampered than normal or not necessarily?
I'd say when it comes to our fleet, and yes, we have a lot of containers stacked, and that's our investment and our future growth and supporting our customers. Because there was a time coming out of COVID where our customers wanted more from J.B. Hunt in terms of capacity than what we could provide. We have a commitment, and that's a mutual commitment with BNSF to have a fleet that is supportive of whatever the market throws at us. That stack of equipment has zero bearing on how we price inside of our bids. It doesn't drive what we do. We can leave those in the stack until we can make an appropriate long-term economic return for unstacking that.
Yeah. What's the spread between truck and intermodal right now? Yeah, how do you, I know you talked about winning on service and different things, but how do you think about that spread?
We've always said, for as long as I can remember, that the spread that really drives conversion and is healthy in the East is 10-15%. In the West, it's more like 20-30%. We're in those zones today. We're living in those zones today.
All right. Wonderful. That's a great wrap-up. I mean, I appreciate we hit on a lot of different subjects real quickly. But thinking about kind of the growth with the rail service, I like the you'll find carcasses as you push rates, the spread between the rates, the ability to, I think, again, focus on the margin. You're focused on the margin, but so much unknown right now given what's going on with the customers. But thank you very much for your insights and thoughts, and I appreciate your time.
Thanks, Ken.
Thanks.