All right, we're gonna get going with our next session with J.B. Hunt. We've got to my left, Darren Field, President of Intermodal, and to my far left, Andrew Hall, Senior Director of Finance. We're gonna get right into questions. So Darren, maybe just, start with a demand update and, you know, March volumes were, you know, particularly strong, up 8%.
Just give us a sense of or directionally, are we seeing that kind of demand strength continue so far into 2Q and, you know, maybe talk a little about Eastern trends versus transcon trends and all that?
Sure. Listen, I think our intermodal demand has been what we would call pretty good. What I don't have is some statement the total supply chain demand cycle is really robust. I think it's just steady, I think our execution and the way that J.B. Hunt has gone about business over the last two or three years is earning share. We're busy with our customers.
What's missing is our customers aren't acting, concerned or there's no fear or panic-stricken shippers saying, "How am I gonna meet my supply chain needs going into this fall?" We're not feeling like there's this overarching really strong demand environment, but how our volumes are working has been good.
I would say that, in some ways it, you know, it can always be better. Our years of really, really high quality execution translated into strong growth in our Eastern network, and that continues to be a great opportunity to convert intermodal business, convert highway business to intermodal and help customers save money. I think that strategy and that opportunity will exist for us for years and years to come. This year that's going really well.
Is it fair to read your comments as underlying customer demand is fine and the volume strength is more about either broad intermodal share gain or J.B. Hunt specific share gain? Is that your view?
Yeah, I think our view is that J.B. Hunt specific share gain is having success, particularly in the Eastern network. I think customers have been, for a couple of years in a row, a little bit concerned that the truckload market was gonna change on them. How can they hedge against that? Can they onboard highway to rail conversion now and really drive sort of bank savings today for a potential truckload pricing environment that's gonna put their budgets under pressure?
I think we're seeing that play out, and now you're seeing the truckload market change around them, and it really is just amplifying the way our customers are viewing any opportunity they have to convert to intermodal.
They're gonna wanna do that as early as they can to get security in their capacity plan and their supply chain plan and bank some savings. Then on top of that, you have higher fuel costs, which is maybe driving some behavior. I've been surprised it's not a big part of our customer discussion.
They're not coming to us with fuel prices being the driver of highway to rail conversion. I think overall our service and just the base case of the product we offer has produced opportunities for us to grow, and we're really proud of the work we've done over the last few years and feel really good moving forward.
Got them to add in, I have a feeling this will be a lot of intermodal talks. I'm gonna weave in a little bit about the rest of the business.
Please, yeah. That's great.
I'd say that Dedicated, you know, had Brad Hicks at a conference last week, and he talked about a strengthening pipeline. You know, especially over the last couple of months, it's gotten stronger in terms of customer size and also, you know, broad scope of industries served there. I think a good data point to point out what Dedicated is, you know, last year we added 40 new customer names to our portfolio.
Historically, once we get in at one site at a customer, prove our value, prove the service we can provide, that leads to additional growth opportunities for us in the future. I think we're encouraged about the growth opportunity with Dedicated. I will remind everyone that, you know, we need to see a couple quarters of fleet growth.
Again, get that wave of new trucks started up before you start to see that flow through to operating income within Dedicated. You know, it's a business that's had double-digit operating margins for 10+ years. I think we have a encouraging opportunity ahead of us there. JBT is another one. four straight quarters of double-digit growth.
You know, Darren touched on operational excellence, the focus on execution of that business. I think we have outgrown the market for four straight quarters now and a lot of momentum there. Same with ICS. You know, it's been a challenging few years at ICS, but I think there's real momentum building in that business.
10% volume growth in the Q1 , successful during the bid season so far, I think you're gonna start to see some improvement in there as well.
That's helpful. Maybe you're gonna say don't anchor too much to March up 8%, but, you know, fuel, we saw some of the impact of fuel in March, but, you know, now we have a full quarter of it. Truck rates are going up, but they're going up even more now and, you know, based on what we learned last week, they might go up even more, right?
By the way, like Marcha April, like probably still have relatively tough comps, maybe there was some pull forward ahead of Liberation Day, right, a year ago. Like the comps get easier, like, you know. It feels like there's potential, right? That we should be talking about double-digit kind of volume growth here, and I don't know that you're ready to give guidance around what volumes are gonna be.
Maybe to ask it a little bit differently and if you wanna, you know, do you have the capacity for that? Does the rail network have the capacity for that right now?
I really think that, one, the comparison period from a year ago is a little bit jaded in that you're right. May and June a year ago were particularly poor.
Right,
on import volumes, could there be, if double digit volume growth came at the, at our Intermodal network? Absolutely. I feel like capacity is available and ready to handle that. You know, we've commented for many quarters in a row, we really, the rail service that all of our rail providers are providing to us is excellent, and we feel very confident in our rail providers' commitment to the resources they need to be prepared.
What our responsibility to them is to not allow them to be surprised. Work with our customers on forecasting, make sure that we have good implementation of new awards planned, and communicate with the railroads ahead of volume so that nobody's surprised.
In this environment, the great work we've done on our service execution over the last three years, the last thing we can afford to do as channel providers between us and our rail partners is we have to execute at a time when our customers are expecting us to be able to grow, and I feel very good that we're capable of doing that.
I do think, look, yeah, we're not gonna anchor on March as being anything other than it was a great month. We highlighted that on the call. As we get into our Q2 call in July, I'll look forward to sharing more about the Q2 . Certainly, we feel great about demand for our product and what's going on at J.B.
Hunt right now really feels like we've hit a gear with customers, particularly in the eastern part of the country.
Maybe just one follow-up on that on the volume side. Like Q1 local East up 7, transcon flat.
Yeah.
Do you think does that sort of spread continue? Do they both start to grow?
Well,
How do you,
I think the Eastern network has sort of foundational growth from this higher truckload price, as well as just the excellence in service and a lot of great work. You know, we were growing our Eastern network in 2025 also. Really that's been several quarters in a row and feel like absolutely there's no reason to believe that that would change.
The transcon business being flat in the Q1 , certainly the comparison period from last year was really strong as there was some pre-shipping before tariffs implemented. There had been some rerouting of business in earlier periods to the West Coast to avoid the potential for an East Coast labor strike. There's just a lot of noise in those numbers. The opposite is true in the Q2 .
In May and June, import volumes through the West Coast were really pretty poor. You know, does that set up for some growth in the transcon in certainly in the Q2 ? I mean, it would feel like there's an opportunity to see some growth there.
That makes sense. I'm probably getting like way ahead of myself, but like any conversations at all, like, about peak season yet and early peaks or late peaks or normal peaks?
I think that's what's been maybe the most, and it's why you occasionally hear, and it seems to be interpreted as caution from J.B. Hunt. I'm really not trying to be cautious on the demand environment. It's more we don't have a lot of dialogue from customers that are concerned about what they're gonna do to cover their peak season needs.
I would feel more confident and even more bullish if customers were beginning to have dialogue with us, asking about what capacity programs do we need to put in place today to prepare for a robust peak season. We're not having that. We're also not having customers tell us that they don't expect to have a successful Christmas shopping season.
There's not negative, but there's not a run of customers asking for a peak season plan. I don't know that that's unusual for the last two years. There really hasn't been a lot of that dialogue because our capacity and the industry's capacity's really been able to accommodate peak season without a lot of stress. I'm anxious to see how that goes as we move into this year.
Maybe now let's turn a little bit to the pricing environment. I mean, we all see trucking spot rates up over 30% right now. You even said on your ICS, you're now getting, you know, double-digit type increases. J.B. Hunt Intermodal yields ex fuel were down 2% in Q1, and I get there's definitely some mix sort of within that.
I mean, I guess at the end of the day, you know, there's always a lag between certainly trucking spot rates and then trucking contract rates and trucking contract rates and intermodal rates. Always. Do you have a view that it's, we're just in the middle of that lag right now, and this is very normal?
Is there a view that the lag is gonna be longer than normal, more pronounced than normal?
I don't have a view that the lag would be longer or more pronounced. I think that we're right in the middle of what I would consider normal historically. It's just, it's been so long since the industry was able to achieve pricing improvements. We're all a little bit impatient and all want to see that happen right now.
I can assure you we'd like to see that as much as any investor would like to see. I think to me, Scott, I don't pay that much attention to truckload spot. I mean, that might be the first signal, but we're gonna watch the contract rates.
Today, our Eastern network, when we look at where we're pricing our contract Intermodal price inclusive of the fuel surcharge, the discount to truck has grown from 15%-20% in the last, call it six to eight weeks. That is the surest sign that I have that there's an opportunity to raise prices on that business. I think you do have to be in the 15% discount range in the East to really have sticky conversion from highway to Intermodal and keep that business.
It just signals that there's certainly pricing opportunities to improve there. The Western part of the pricing world behaves very differently. It's less yoked to the Truckload market, and we don't have near as much of an influencer.
Your competitive forces out west are really you're competing against all water cost, you're competing against intact international intermodal, and just a little bit of truckload capacity. That's a different world out there. Certainly in the east, feel like the pricing opportunity is right in front of us, and I would expect the cycle to behave just like it always has.
There's gonna be a lag in intermodal. I don't know that we can close that 20% discount gap back to 15, certainly in just this cycle. I would anticipate certainly our intermodal pricing opportunity to start to improve as we go through the rest of this cycle. I think the next pricing cycle in 2027 is surely set for both volume and pricing improvements.
You wanna be at a 15% delta. You think you're at 20 now.
I'd like to be at a 0% delta, but the market's not gonna allow that.
The market says you should be around 15. You're closer to 20.
Right.
That 20 is even before we've really seen truckload contract rates go up much yet. I mean, they're starting to, but like if you're looking at real-time data, like they haven't gone up a whole lot yet.
Well, I think that even that expansion from 15%-20% is an
Okay.
Is a view into truckload prices beginning to influence that, and certainly it presents itself with our own data today that really supports stronger pricing from intermodal.
Yeah. You know, it strikes me like I try to pitch, "Hey, this is a great setup for intermodal. Rising truck rates, rising fuel, really good rail service, and it, you know, this is like the perfect time to do intermodal." Could you argue, though, just like thinking out loud, like the fact that rail service and broad intermodal service is good and you have boxes and you have the capacity to grow, is that a limiting factor to how much price you can get? That the fact that like you don't have tender rejections or whatever going from 5%-15% or whatever the right metric is for intermodal?
I think that's where disciplined growth comes in and our approach to our own inflationary cost pressures. Look, in a market like this, when you start to see truckload rates climb, we're already beginning to see our own driver need begin to grow in our dedicated and intermodal business and pressure from other carriers recruiting our employees.
I believe we're beginning to see signs that driver wages are gonna go up. That's just in front of the industry, certainly the opportunity to go get pricing improvements but also grow share from the highway because intermodal can provide capacity that a difficult driver hiring market doesn't have as many trucks in order to accommodate.
Really, there's a great opportunity to use this stronger service and use real pricing discipline in a way to drive still drive growth, even though we do have enough capacity to onboard certainly business.
How about the competitive dynamic as it relates to the merger? Is that in your mind having impact on bid discussions, on which IMC do I wanna use right now? Is it impacting the pricing environment or?
Yeah, I think.
is this more of a 2020 discussion?
I think it's pretty muted. I don't have a lot of customers that are talking about that. I don't believe they're decisioning today at all based on the potential for a merger. I think that customers are waiting for certainly for J.B. Hunt to have more to say about that merger. Look, we've been pretty intentional in not talking a lot about that. You're not gonna bait me into it here today.
What I would just say is. We're very confident in the programs we operate. Our customers want to hear from us more than they want to dictate to us what that will mean. We're anxiously awaiting the application, whether or not it's approved or not, is the next phase of the whole program, and we'll watch that.
As the year goes on, we'll begin to develop more thoughts about how we wanna talk about that.
Yeah. Just before we come to the back, just one more, like, follow-up on pricing. I just wanted to ask, like, you know, you didn't mention it yet today, but, you know, the last earnings call, the last bunch of calls, I hear more about, like, head haul lanes and back haul lanes, and I guess I don't necessarily recall, like, so much in prior cycles discussion around that.
Yeah.
I just wanna say again, is this just very normal that, like, head haul lanes pricing goes up first and back haul always lags, or is this sort of a new phenomenon?
I would say the back haul pricing world is behaving like it always has. It's ultra-competitive. It's very difficult. It's really valuable business to anybody that works in our industry would love to have business that positioned their equipment into head haul markets like Southern California, for example. That part of it is very normal.
I think what I would consider a little bit more competitive is the pricing packages that we've seen off the West Coast in the head hauls has surprised us at the competitiveness, and it feels like there have been some incentive programs included that are a little bit different than what we've ever seen before. I would call that being the thing that's a little unusual.
We've seen where customers are telling us that UP has offered some incentive programs for volume, regardless of which channel brings them the load. That's kinda new. At least if it isn't new, it's the first time our customers are highlighting it as a reason that they don't like the prices we've offered.
Interesting. Okay. There's a question in the back.
Yeah. Maybe, more of a point of clarification, but I think when you talked about truckload rates and the impact on driver wages, I can see how that would translate through to Dedicated, but it sounded like you said intermodal also experiences quite a bit of inflationary pressure from that. Is it the same labor pool? I would have thought there would be more segmentation, but maybe just sort of a clarification.
No. Qualified CDL holders are certainly needed in both dedicated and intermodal. In a lot of cases, the jobs have some similarity. I don't wanna act like they're identical. They're not. Look, almost half of our drivers today are in day cabs, so they come to work in their personal vehicle just like any of us would, and they work their shift, and then they go home.
That's for dedicated and intermodal combined. Attracting those drivers is in some ways similar. If anything, the dedicated jobs sometimes have characteristics that are even more difficult, so I would say there's even more wage pressure at dedicated.
In general, a CDL holder, a driver today, it's getting harder and harder to hire them, really all over the country, and we're beginning to see that we need to implement sign-on bonuses, and that just is a signal that there's inflationary pressure coming at all aspects of the driver market.
No matter what kind of job it is, CDL holders are gonna become very hard to find and the market's gonna have to adjust and adapt and certainly include some of the pricing improvements will find their way down to certainly to the driver.
Well, maybe I'll do a couple follow-ups on that question.
What is your exposure to, like, that cohort of drivers, non-domiciled, whatever you wanna call it, that you think is at risk? Then, I don't know, maybe Andrew, if you wanna take, like, the broader, you know, Montgomery question of how much incremental capacity you think this takes out of the market? What does this mean for ICS? What does it mean for, you know, the other businesses at Hunt?
Well, I'll quickly on the non-domiciled drivers. I think that J.B. Hunt, I don't remember exactly how we shared. We have over 22,000 drivers in total, and I think we had around 300 that fell into the non-domiciled category. It's not a significant headwind for us. Certainly, you know, those drivers have been good drivers for us.
We're, we certainly understand regulatory change, and we're gonna follow the regulations just like anybody would expect of us. I don't anticipate that to be a really big headwind, certainly for us. I think the biggest factor in the, certainly the non-domiciled impact to call it maybe as many as 200,000 drivers was certainly as an industry.
I think that's significant, and that's finding its way into the market. The role that capacity that originated in Canada or Mexico that might have executed domestic U.S. shipments, the term is cabotage, that's really taken some capacity out of the market as well. It's just putting pressure on transportation supply in the U.S. for other drivers, and now you're beginning to find that bubble up into our ability to hire more drivers.
There have been a number of schools closed, the industry's probably not producing newly trained drivers quite as fast. There's a lot of potential headwinds coming at the industry on the driver front.
The Montgomery, I know it got a lot of headlines when it got announced last week. I'll tell you, we came to work Friday, and nothing changed for us in ICS in terms of how we vet carriers or onboard carriers. I think our carrier requirements are based on what we know today above kind of industry average. You know, your carrier has to have been in service for one year before we will use them.
We don't use or, you know, tender loads to conditional carriers. I think the struggle is 90% of the carrier base doesn't have a safety rating from the FMCSA, it's tough to know exactly. Based on what we know today, we think our practices are above industry average.
What happens immediately, I think it's unclear if there's an immediate impact. I think over time, how shippers react to this, you know, will they tender more freight to asset carriers or to large brokers of scale and have financial security and have more insurance? That could change the industry. Do insurance companies require brokers to carry a higher line of insurance? Unknown.
I think over time, medium to long term, this is probably a positive for the industry in terms of rates going up because insurance costs are going up. In terms of immediate impact, I don't know that there's much that we see right now that's gonna change the way we do business right now.
like, putting your intermodal hat on, does it get you like, "Hey, another reason why truck rates are going up even more. I'm, like, even more excited about intermodal now"?
Well, certainly any opportunity that we have to be a supply chain answer for a customer needing truckload capacity, we get excited about that. I think we're cautious on how quickly this will translate into something real in the market and when does a customer begin to decision differently on who are they gonna use to source their capacity. Certainly, any kinda tailwind we can find, we're gonna certainly appreciate that.
Don't have a ton of time. Maybe just quickly. You know, we were talking earlier, you know, what now feels like very old news and maybe not even any news at all. Amazon.
Yeah.
What's your quick view on what, if anything, has changed here?
You know, Amazon entered the intermodal industry during COVID. They bought containers. They've been a supply chain services provider for a number of years. I don't want to comment on their announcement other than I was surprised that it got all this press and that they've been doing that for a number of years.
We've been, we have competed with them as a service provider in a number of instances and feel very confident that the quality of our service, the quality of our capacity, the consistency in which we operate our business, we're gonna outperform any competitor there is out there, regardless of what color your container is or whomever. We feel really confident in our position regardless of what they do.
Just a longer-term thought question. What do you say to someone that says, "I get it, intermodal makes sense, but what about autonomous trucks?
Autonomous trucks can complement intermodal. I don't view it as a potential risk. You know, it feels like if the idea is let me buy a bunch of trucks that drive themselves and burn fuel all the way from California. It just doesn't feel like the kind of thing that would be wise, and certainly the railroads will react and will have something to say about the competitive risk that autonomous trucks might have.
Again, one end of every intermodal load is a rail yard, and so you can map that facility out, and there's a way to make autonomous trucks at some point be supportive of growing intermodal business. We're gonna be cautious because we've just nobody can actually tell us what an autonomous truck is going to cost to serve the business.
We wanna understand at some point, what's it gonna cost? What are the capabilities? Then does it take people there to hook up containers, hook up air hoses? There's still gonna be a lot of coordination involved with making that whole process work.
Andrew, just a quick Dedicated one. You made a couple comments earlier about, like, where are we in terms of ultimately, like, when does Dedicated start growing again?
Yeah. You know, I think you know, that's one business where if we were gonna give you guidance, I think we have the most visibility to. I think Brad Hicks has said, you know, he expects to return to growth this year. You know, 800 to 1,000 net truck sales is our target every year. We had a strong start to the year, 285 in the Q1 , I believe.
That's a good start. 385 to end last year. That's a couple good quarters of sales. I would expect that you should start to see the fleet return to growth again this year, which would lead to, like we've said, modest operating income growth for the full year.
Darren, I don't, I really don't wanna disappoint you. I will end on a margin question.
Okay.
Cause I know you've been missing it already.
Yes.
We're getting margin improvement in intermodal even before price has turned. Right? Does that give you more confidence in sort of getting back to the 10%-12%? Should we start to think, "Hey, there's potential to do better than that 10%-12%?" You used to have an 11%-13%, right? How should we think about, you know, what the momentum in margin you're already seeing even before we get price? What does that mean?
I think it might have been a year ago, I said, "Ultimately, we need 3 points of margin improvement. A point needs to come from volume, a point needs to come from cost, and a point needs to come from price." I think we've come a long way on the volume and cost side, and price is yet to contribute.
Certainly, we're in the early stages of seeing pricing begin to be an opportunity to help us improve our margins. Look, I'm going to just say we need to get back inside our long-term targets of 10%-12%. Certainly, in the past, we've been at 11%-13%.
Back when we lived in that range, revenue per load was significantly less. Certainly that's what I think our ROIC kind of targets required. Today, a 10%-12% will produce an income line that'll produce an ROIC that would be very re-investable, would make our investors really proud of the business and gets to a point where you're really able to grow and sustain it.
I think that when you get in that upper end of that boundary, there's other constituents, whether it's customers or railroads, are all gonna say, "Hey, that might be a little bit too much for you." There's an element of pressure on the top end of that margin range. Certainly for now, our mission is to, as quickly as we can, get back to at least 10%.
Awesome. Darren, Andrew, we gotta wrap there. This was great. Thank you guys so much.