Think we can get started here. All right. Hi, everybody. Thanks for joining us today. I'm Pooran Sharma. I'm the Food and Agribusiness Equity Research Analyst at Stephens. It's my pleasure to welcome you to today's Fireside Chat with Limoneira. For those of you unfamiliar with the company, Limoneira is a 131-year-old agribusiness leader specializing in citrus and avocados, with significant real estate and water assets. Joining me today are Harold Edwards, CEO, and Mark Palamountain, CFO. To start, could you maybe provide us with a brief background on the business?
Sure. I'd be happy to. So the company was founded in 1893 by the founders of the Union Oil Company, who, as a way to diversify their wealth, set out to create the largest, first largest citrus planting in the United States of its kind. It took them 15 years until they achieved their first profit doing that. We like to tell that part of the story. But over the years, through organic growth, mergers, and acquisitions, the company has grown to be at its peak, a little over 15,000 acres of very valuable agricultural assets, predominantly. But if we could put sort of Google Maps up on the screen and show you where we sit, we sit right in the middle between Santa Barbara to the north and Malibu to the south in some of the most valuable real estate in the United States.
A large part of our story is an agricultural story, but we also have very interesting opportunities to develop real estate and monetize water.
Great. Great. And give us a sense for how you started off, how you've kind of evolved. How do you see yourself kind of positioned in citrus and other kinds of fruits here?
It's interesting. Over the course of 131 years, the company. We took inventory. The company's produced over 130 different things. At one point, the valley was all walnuts. At one point, it was all Valencia oranges. It always had lemons. Beginning in the 1930s, they began planting avocados on the hillsides. The world has changed dynamically over all of that time, and so too have consumer preferences and the realities of global supplies. Today, we find ourselves in a very interesting spot in terms of our citrus production, predominantly lemons. Today, we find ourselves in a significantly oversupplied situation in the lemon industry. We're very fortunate to have ideal climates to grow both avocados and lemons. Because of the oversupplied nature of the lemon business globally, we find ourselves in a position of more challenged margins in our production.
The company has gone through a pretty significant strategic shift to reduce the amount of lemon production we have, increase the amount of services we provide to other lemon growers, providing packing, marketing, and selling services where we have better control of our margins, and then a significant increase in the growth of our avocado production. We, this last year, produced a little over 17 million pounds of avocados. With the increased planting, which will be upwards of 2,000 acres when we're done, we are targeting approximately 30 million pounds of avocado production, which will make us the largest producer of avocados in California. It's the growth of the services model, sort of an asset-light model, and the increase in avocado plantings to complement then our real estate development and our water monetization.
Great. I appreciate that. Maybe if we could just kind of shift to more recent results. I think recent has been pretty strong. Some improvements in Adjusted EBITDA and good avocado performance. Could you maybe just share a little bit more color behind that?
Yeah. So you know Mother Nature's your friend and your foe all the time. This year, we had a pretty tremendous avocado crop that came off the tree. You never know until you get to the season. Our windows are usually you could really start picking in January, February, but we structurally could hold on. And we held through the period. And there was a period of time where the Mexico border got shut down this summer. And we all know what that means. Most of the avocados come from Mexico. And so our price doubled overnight in July. And so we were fortunate enough to only be about a third picked at that point in time. And so the dynamics, we usually think about $1.30 a pound as sort of a good average, how we think about it.
We were getting upwards of $2-$2.50 a pound for a period of time. So it was tremendous. It's not always going to be like that. But we think long term, as we're pivoting towards avocados, you think about 30 million pounds at $1.30. That's a pretty tremendous number relative operating profit. And it costs us about $5,000 to farm it. And it's about $20,000-$25,000 of revenue. So really good margins. And this is why we've really made the pivot shift. We're always going to be in lemons. We need to be a prominent lemon supplier. We'll have about a million to a million and a half cartons going forward. And the rest will be outsourced. But I think as you see that profit margin where lemons, historically, there's a few years that maybe you got to $10,000 an acre.
We're going to be 15-20 pretty consistently, given our new plantings, the technology we're putting in, and how we're planting these days.
Great. Appreciate that. Maybe just talking a little bit about avocados here, honing in. As you mentioned, kind of had some dynamics that created a bright spot, so to speak. How is this success influencing your plans to expand your avocado acreage? And how much do you plan to expand?
Yeah. So we're really bullish on avocados. And certainly with the success of this last year, but also everybody seeing how successful the avocados have been, not only for us as a producer, but also the big handlers like Calavo Growers or Mission Produce, we find ourselves in a really interesting spot where if we can produce avocados and from a seasonal perspective, be able to Harvest between May and August, that time frame sits right in between the two Mexican seasons. And why that's significant is Mexico produces about 4 billion pounds of avocados annually. California, as an industry, which is basically 95% of the U.S. industry, produces 300 million pounds. The U.S. consumes about 3 billion pounds currently. The U.S. consumes 60 million pounds of avocados a week, of which we're targeting producing 30 million pounds.
So if you think about it, we're really only targeting one half of one week's consumption in the U.S. Because of where we sit between the two Mexican seasons, if we are there from May until August 1, we're really going to have a great opportunity of being able to deliver fruit when there's not a lot of fruit in the marketplace. And so we're really bullish on that side of avocado seasons. But also, about 25 years ago, the per capita consumption of avocados in the U.S. was one pound per capita. We're now at nine pounds per capita. In Mexico, their consumption is 30 pounds per capita. So when you think about all the demographic shifts in our country, we think there's still significant tailwinds for consumption.
It's just going to increase that 3 billion, we believe, to 4 billion pounds over the course of the next 10 years. And we should be in a great position to take advantage of that.
Great. Appreciate that detail. And I guess just sticking with avocados here just for a sec. When you think about avocado production and how do you manage the alternate-bearing nature of avocado trees to ensure consistent performance year to year?
That's a great question. It's really interesting. You think a 131-year-old farming company, we'd be really good at farming, which we are. But technology today is so vastly different than it was 10 years ago, even when I started at the company. And it's fundamental. A tree needs what it needs. You deliver water when it's supposed to. But the infrastructure for most agricultural companies is very antiquated, very old. Sometimes it's gravity-fed. It's turn it on, turn it off, kind of a week later. Now we've just invested, and we're probably about half through of getting a pressurized system in automation, fertigation, the trees, red light, green light. Do we need feed? Do we not need feed for high-level purposes? And it's really manifesting itself. And we saw it this year that we had a good crop this year, a very good crop.
We haven't talked about our next year's crop, but we're pretty optimistic that the alternate-bearing nature is slimming, meaning through technology, through when the tree needs to be fed, when it needs to be watered, not over, not under, is really helping in getting the right crop and a strong crop to stay on the tree longer.
Great. Great. I guess if we could kind of shift to citrus here, and I know you mentioned this already in the comments, but it looks like the market's facing some oversupply challenges. How do you navigate pricing and volume dynamics, and I know you're going more toward sourcing away from your own planting, but if you could just go through that dynamic.
Yeah, sure. So the world continues to consume lemons, and that's great. Pre-COVID, the U.S. market was growing at about 6% annually, and in developing markets like in Japan and Korea and some of the other Southeast Asian markets, they were growing at sort of double-digit growth. The pandemic was not our friend. 70% of lemons are consumed in restaurants and bars. The pandemic closed them all for a period of time. That did not help the demand. As we restored ourselves to sort of post-pandemic, pre-pandemic demand levels, we see the U.S. growing at about 2% annually, so that's helpful, but the real answer from a producer standpoint is the only way to be profitable in producing lemons is you need to have consistently high quality and consistently high yields, and by doing that, you can actually deliver a product profitably as a producer.
As we all know, if you have a partnership with Mother Nature, that creates volatility if you're in the farming and production side of the business. But when it's working for you, it's great. When it's working against you, it's not so great. So our pivot to more of an asset-light model is over many, many years, like 131 to be precise, we have attained leading market share positions in Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, parts of China, but also throughout the United States domestically. Many people don't know that the founders of our company were also the founders of a grower-owned cooperative called Sunkist. So if you bought a Sunkist lemon or orange, there was a high probability that we'd produced it, but you'd never heard of us.
In 2010, when we took our company public, we left Sunkist and began to market and sell and migrated upstream of our vertically integrated business model and found that we were able to develop very successful year-round supply chains by complementing our domestic production with co-packing arrangements in Mexico, but also investments in Chile and Argentina that allowed us to create a 365-day supply chain. We're in the process of migrating our business from what at one point was 80% we grew it, 20% were grower partners, to now 20% we grew it, and 80% will be handling outside growers' fruit. Why that's important is that we can control our margin structure if we're providing a service of packing, marketing, and selling. As we deal with inflation and rising costs, we can change our marketing charge and our packing charge to our grower partners.
As long as we're competitive, we can maintain our margins. As a grower, you can't do that. You produce for a certain amount, and you have a certain amount of cost into it. You can't control the pricing of that commodity. And with the oversupplied nature that we are experiencing today, but we also see in the foreseeable future that really challenges the profitability of our lemon growing business. So we think the pivot to being more asset-light and representing more outside grower partners is going to be the way to grow our supply chains. And we still have pretty lofty ambitions for growing our supply chains upwards of 15 million cartons. I think we haven't guided for next year, but directionally, we should be somewhere around 6 million cartons next year. 5 to 5.5, 5.5 to 6 million cartons.
A carton is a 40-pound box that has 150 lemons in it. If you do the math, last year we moved about 1.3 billion lemons. So it's a lot of lemons. And we continue to see opportunities to continue to take advantage of that consumption.
Great. And I guess just not being a grower, you don't have to put the capital, as you mentioned. And maybe could you talk about the dynamics of what you could potentially do with that? I know you mentioned upgrading your supply chains, but how does this kind of free you up? And what do you kind of plan to do with all that?
Yeah. So in the citrus business, we have three models. One is we grow it, we pack it, we market, we sell it. Another is we represent outside grower partners where we pack, market, and sell it, and they grow it. But the third model is we actually represent suppliers from all over the world and plug their production into our supply chains. And by doing that, we're able to complement our own production with the full category of citrus, which opens the doors of the big retail and food service buyers. So we can hit all the DCs of Walmart. We can get to Aldi. We can get to Kroger. We can get to the big food service buyers because we have the full complement of citrus. But we are bringing those complementary citrus products into our supply chains from other suppliers.
Typically, those are 8% commission deals with little to no downside risk to it. And really, it's not very capital intensive from the standpoint, there's working capital, but there's no capital investment. So as all this plays out and you start seeing our EBITDA growing significantly because of the avocados and the growth of the citrus business, we forecasted upwards of $50-$70 million of EBITDA, which if you look backwards, you'll see has never been achieved, but we believe is very achievable in the next three to five years. And at that point, the capital allocation, and I'll let Mark talk about where we sit with our balance sheet and our capital allocation, but there'll be great opportunities to buy stock back, to increase our dividends, to really begin to see greater yields in our stock. You maybe talk about our balance sheet. Yeah.
Those of you who follow the story, three years ago, we were a company buried in debt. We had about $150 million of debt on, call it, 15-20 million of EBITDA. And we were very fortunate to have plus $500 million of assets. And we had a great lender Farm Credit that was we were borrowing at LIBOR plus 150 for 10 plus years, so sub 2%, which is really what fueled our growth. We could call it fortuitous. We could call it luck. We could call it good. But when we sold the Northern Properties, it was a $100 million deal, which is now almost three years ago. We completely delevered the balance sheet. This last spring in April, we did another $100 million deal with Lennar, which was 50/50 with our JV partner, Lewis, which essentially put us at net zero debt.
We hold a $40 million note today, which is at 3.5%, which comes up, goes variable this spring, and then matures the following spring. But as Harvest matures, that $180 million plus of cash that we've talked about coming, which we received our first $15 million this spring, we're going to have lots of flexibility. We see our company completely delevered. It's never happened in the history of the company. We're going to have lots of optionality. I think if you look forward, being the largest grower of avocados today and now doubling that over the next three years, we're going to have to think about, do we vertically integrate in avocados? Because you can't go hit the spot market when you're a 10% plus player. Those would be fun things to think about from a capital allocation perspective.
But at the end of the day, we're almost fully invested in everything that we have that's going to get us to that 50-60 million of EBITDA. There's probably about $5 million of avocados left over the next two years, which will spread out, and you won't even see it. So we've been a company that's never had free cash flow, and we're looking forward to it.
Appreciate that. I guess when we're on there, do you think you could just remind us about your real estate and the water assets?
Just to talk about the real estate. Again, if you could put Google Maps up on the wall, we could show you that the majority of our assets lie between Malibu to the south and Santa Barbara to the north and some of the most valuable residential and commercial real estate in the country. We live in a really interesting county that has really tried to slow or even stop growth. What that's done is, in essence, it's gentrified the values of its residential real estate. The median home price today in Ventura County is over $1 million. If you're just starting out, it's kind of tough to have a starter home for $1 million. I guess the successful byproduct of that, though, is it has increased the value of our real estate significantly.
In order to gain the entitlement to convert an agricultural piece of property to an urban development piece of property, you actually have to win a public vote where we live, and so you can imagine if you're looking at a beautiful orchard or thinking about tearing that orchard and putting up a strip mall and condos, they're not very popular with the voters, so it takes a lot of work in gaining sort of the ear of local communities to understand in your development agreement exactly what the community needs and wants and connecting with your community. If you can do that, you can successfully gain those entitlements, and just for perspective, today, approximately the agricultural value of our assets is about $100,000 an acre. If you can gain that entitlement overnight, it becomes worth $1 million an acre.
So in the center of our operations is a 3,000-acre contiguous piece of property that sits a mile to the east from the city of Ventura and a mile to the west from the cities of Santa Paula. It is the greenbelt between these two communities. We're very fortunate to have an abundance of groundwater under that land. And that water basin was the second water basin in the state of California to successfully adjudicate and then parse out who gets what and actually achieve an asset in the access to that water. And so today, we own and operate 12,000 acre-feet of water. We use most of it to farm. But as we're developing our real estate, we've sort of learned something interesting that an acre of houses uses one-fifth of the consumptive use of an acre of trees.
And so as we're actually developing real estate, we're actually freeing up excess surplus water, which we're then monetizing through long-term leases. We just announced a long-term lease at 500 acre-feet at what comes out to be about $70,000 an acre-foot. But we're also transacting and selling water rights at anywhere from $30,000-$35,000 an acre-foot. So if you extrapolate the values on those recent deals and you put it over 12,000 acre-feet in that basin, you start to realize that there's a lot of value there. And that value is just going to keep going up because all roads lead to the same place, and that is that water source. So eventually, we believe that water is probably going to be more valuable than the developable land.
But the combination of being able to farm with it while you get a coupon until you can gain the entitlement to actually develop that land, and then all the while monetizing the water as you free it up, creates a long-term value proposition that's unique, but we think is extremely valuable.
Harold, how many acres of developable land is there in Ventura County?
So that we own, it's about 3,000. And really, it's three specific properties. There's a 212-acre piece of property that if you looked at the city of Ventura from above, there's a donut hole right in the middle of it. It's surrounded on all four sides by the city of Ventura. And we're growing lemons and avocados right in the middle. And that property comes with water from a pipeline that was put in place in 1920 with the wells drilled east of Santa Paula. So it's about 18 miles of delivery and conveyance. But the bottom line is that piece of property comes with its own water, which is unheard of in the cities. And then the really big opportunity is the about 2,800 acres, which is our primary ranch where if you came to our headquarters, where we are.
Okay. Great. I guess as you kind of going through this stage, Mark, and you get into that point where you're becoming free cash flow positive, how should investors think about your CapEx needs as you are transitioning to kind of an asset-light model? If you could just provide some color around that.
Yeah, sure. So historically, we have a maintenance CapEx. It's about $5-$7 million a year, just tractors and machinery and all the likes. Over the last 15 years, we've been reinvesting in the business. We've put in a new packing house. We've continued to optimize, take bodies out, do optics and different things. And so right now, we're at an inflection point where CapEx is really not on the radar. There's things that we could do. We could get more storage, but those are big numbers, like $70 million kind of numbers. And there's not paybacks versus we have really good long-term leases. We sold the Oxnard Lemon facility back to the port, which is leasing it back to us. So we're in pretty good shape as far as CapEx. I think really, again, the next potential is thinking about an acquisition in the avocado space.
I just think we have to be nimble. And you have to have a 365-day program. And so just having a California piece, which, as Harold said, ours is four days of supply, you really have to be in the market 365 days, 24 hours a day with the retailers, the Krogers, the Aldis, the Whole Foods. And so that's most likely. At the end of the day, there's public handlers, there's private handlers. We know them all. And it's really what's a good fit for us. We know we can't be spot market people forever. And so as we get to this critical mass, if you will, by 2028, 2029, and 2030, that's on the horizon. But for now, I think we're completely happy being delevered. We've got $180 million of cash coming in over the next five to seven years.
So it's going to be fun to think about what we're going to do with it.
I guess on that point, would you be looking for something more toward South America, or would you be looking more kind of in the Mexico area? Or how do you think about?
So that's a great question. So we've talked about the remaining assets that we have for sale, which are the vineyard and our Chilean assets to get sort of that asset-light model. The unique part about South America and specifically Chile is we've got a partner down there that has 5 million cartons captive under his control that are all young trees. And over the next three to four years, they're going to come into commercialization. And so right now, our packing capacity down there, we own a 47% stake in Rosales with our partner. They can do about 1.5 million cartons. So they're bursting at the seams. And so our thesis is transact on the land assets down there, keep them in our supply chain, and then build a packing house with that cash.
So not add any more cash, but just flip the cash back in. So as an example, $15-$20 million of book and basis, take that out and then flip that into a packing house. And we know where our packing house margins are. We can control those. And right now, we're making about $2-$2.50 a carton. So do the math on five million cartons. It gets pretty interesting on a $15 million investment. So that's probably where we're going to be, but you won't see any more debt doing that.
We're probably not going to be investors in Mexico. I mean, we're going to continue to work with Mexican suppliers and avocados and citrus, but I don't see us investing in hard assets in Mexico.
Okay, and I guess when you look abroad, what do you think your biggest opportunities and your risks are in the international markets for citrus and avocado growth?
We’ve had leading market share position in citrus in Japan and Korea for 50 years. We’ve learned a lot. It used to be that about 30% of what we did, what we produced, went to Southeast Asia. That has always been good. I think it’s about 10% now, but that’s mostly because we’ve grown and we’re bigger. It’s still kind of equal amounts of volume. We’re very vulnerable to exchange rate fluctuation. When you have a strong dollar, it really hurts your ability to be competitive in those markets. We try to be cognizant of that. There’s no way if you’re growing a tree or building a market that you’re going to know where you’re going to be next year with that.
But we try to look at it like it's a portfolio of total opportunity and how much are we really investing into hitting those markets. We have some of the best relationships with some of the large Japanese trading companies. And we were a first mover in terms of beginning to sell citrus into Korea, the Korean markets. And that market has probably grown the fastest of any individual national market that we serve. And then the consumption in China and Hong Kong is still a market. China actually has a burgeoning citrus industry. And we don't believe that the quality can match ours, but the cost can not only match ours, it can do quite well. So we're also aware of that so that we don't get out of position as we hit those markets.
Great.
Yeah. Just to add on, so avocados, as we went through this glut of lemon supply and are going through it, people always ask the question, well, we see avocados being planted around the world. Is that going to get oversupplied? And as Harold mentioned earlier, and this is a really important niche, that California holds this window on the shoulders of Mexico, that is a 10,000-pound gorilla between May and August, where there is really no other supply. There's Peru, but logistically, if we sit Rocky Mountain West, which is where 80% of avocados are consumed, we have the best first-mover advantage there. And so we have high confidence that even as avocados are planted prolifically around the world, that our window, again, is 30 million pounds in a 60 million-pound market a week, is going to be there for the long haul.
Great. And just on, I guess, your ability to kind of with your avocados, right? I think even you decided to strategically delay avocados this year. And I think you kind of touched on it, but if you could kind of remind us of that and the benefits that you saw.
Every year is going to be different. Mexico is going to have big crops, smaller crops. California is going to have big crops, smaller crops, and so every year is going to be, you're going to be able to play it strategically differently. The neat part about avocados is they become Harvestable beginning in December, and if you're not subjected to extreme weather or wind, you can hold that avocado till September, so that's a lot of on-tree inventory time. The challenge becomes, or the issue becomes, the longer you hold it on the tree, the more risk you have with Mother Nature coming and messing up your plants.
So these guys, our team this year, did a phenomenal job anticipating where the market was and where it was going to be, and then making a strategic decision to delay the Harvest into the third and even fourth quarters, which we've never done before. I don't think we've ever held fruit that long and rang the bell from the overall size of our Harvest, but also the value we got for it because we hit a relatively empty market.
Great. Kind of going on with the asset light model, I think you've had some development and growth of the farm management services division. Could you maybe talk about that and how this aligns with going to the asset light model?
I'll hit it first and then hand it over so as Mark mentioned, we successfully sold 3,000 acres of our northern properties a year ago to a large insurance company, Prudential, and Prudential is actually the owner of one of the largest farm management services businesses in the country as well, but as part of our transaction, we actually not only kept the supply in our supply chains, but we were actually hired to continue to farm the assets and get paid to do that. We thought that was going to be a great platform for growth and that, hey, look, we've been farming for 131 years. Why don't we start offering these services to other landowners?
What we found is something pretty interesting that if we went out and fully went after the market that exists out there for farm management services, what we're finding is that we would be inevitably displacing somebody that's delivering fruit to us. And so in a way, it turned out to be more of a cannibalization of our existing more valuable business, which is packing, marketing, and selling. So where we see the farm management services opportunity evolving is to take some of our insights, but also the opportunities of our investments in technology and make those available as a way to provide services. And that way, you can do it in a complementary way with the existing farm management service provider, the actual group that's doing the farming. And we see a lot of growth opportunity in that area.
We're within weeks right now of being the only licensed drone flyer for aerial application of sprays. That's going to have a significant cost advantage to how that's done today, which is typically with helicopters or fixed-wing airplanes, and we're really excited about that because we think the efficacy is going to be better. The carbon footprint of that is way better, and you can do it a lot cheaper, so you can sell that service pretty successfully, so we're excited to go in that direction.
Yeah, that's very interesting. If we could maybe just talk about, I think you've been exploring strategic alternatives to maximize the value of the company. Could you provide an update on the progress, on the process, what's on the table, and potential timelines for decisions?
Sure, I get that one, yeah. So as we know, about a year ago, we announced that we were exploring strategic alternatives. We've had a very patient shareholder base. I think you see our holders. They're long and hold, and they've been very loyal to us. And so we took stock of where the company was, where the balance sheet was, what the fair market value versus the book value. And we just weren't getting credit from Wall Street. It's a quarter-to-quarter earnings, as we all know how this works. So the board came to us and challenged us with, one, not only retooling the business to try to figure out a long-term roadmap, but can we get value back to the shareholders in a different way? And so we are in the market as we speak. And we're taking our time. We have assets that they don't make anymore.
They're an incredible set of assets that are 3,000 acres, five, six miles from the beach. We have more water than we need. Don't say that out loud. But we're very fortunate. And so I think at the end of the day, we have out in our deck that our assets are worth between $550 million and $700 million. And we're very confident in that. And we're trying to build an earnings story behind that. And so we've got a lot of interest, a lot of people looking around, kicking the tires, we'll say. But there's no timelines. Again, we're not in a rush. We've got a great group helping us. And we're just excited to be out in the market and try to see where things land. And at the end of the day, we're really proud about the roadmap there is.
If new ownership comes in and takes the company private and sheds $5 million of public cost, it might not be a bad thing. We're just taking our time with it.
Yeah, I think the likely scenario that's out there is, and I don't know which is the most likely, but we'll either stay the course and enjoy the business plans that we have in place and follow the roadmap that we've just tried to articulate, we'll become a privately held company, which, as Mark said, will shave a significant amount of compliance cost annually, making us much more efficient. Or there's the opportunity to become a much larger publicly traded company, not necessarily by being acquisitive, but to merge into or together in a stock-for-stock transaction with another publicly traded company. So there's options and there's interest. But as Mark said, there's not necessarily a timeline. There's got to be the right fit, but ultimately, there's got to be the right value if we're actually going to do something with the company.
Got it. Appreciate that detail. I think we only have a few moments remaining here. Just wanted to see if there's any questions from investors. If not, maybe Mark and Harold, if you could just give us some parting thoughts here, and appreciate you being here at Nashville.
No, we appreciate everybody's interest in following the story. The story has been great. It's been evolving. As Mark said, we've been investing heavily over the last 20 years into the changes to the business. We would encourage any and all investors to look forward in your analysis. Don't look backwards. And the main reason for that is we've been retooling this business significantly over the course of the last five years. And so we've gone through some really challenging times. The business grew in an almost linear way until 2019. And that was the first year of the oversupply in lemons that manifested itself right into the pandemic. So we really struggled in 2019, 2020. We started coming out in 2021 and 2022. But then take a look at what we did in 2023 and 2024, and then look forward at our forecast.
I think you'll see a completely different picture that we're really excited to realize.
Great, great. Harold, Mark, thanks again for joining us. We appreciate you being here, and thank you all for being here as well.
Thank you.