All right. Good morning.
Are we live?
Good morning, welcome to J.P. Morgan's 51st Annual Technology, Media, and Communications Conference. My name is Harlan Sur, Semiconductor and Semiconductor Capital Equipment analyst for the firm. Very pleased to have Doug Bettinger, Chief Financial Officer of Lam Research, here with us today. Lam is the third-largest semiconductor capital equipment company in the world. Strong leadership in etch deposition with fast-growing and emerging businesses like next-generation transistor and memory cell architectures, resist processing and advanced packaging. Doug, thank you very much for joining us today. I think you have something to read.
Yeah, give me... Am I live? I can't tell.
Yes.
Yeah, there we go. Okay. Let me hit the safe harbor real quick, so my attorneys are happy about that. Today's discussion may include forward-looking statements that are subject to risks and uncertainties, and actual results may differ materially. Additional information concerning factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from those forward-looking statements can be found in the risk factors of closed and/or public filings with the SEC, including our 10-K and 10-Q.
Perfect.
I'm done with that.
Again, thanks for joining us today. Appreciate it.
Thanks for having me, Harlan. It's good to be here.
The Lam team supplies into all of the global semiconductor manufacturers, right? You have great visibility on supply dynamics of the industry, and I know that you have a team actually does a great job at looking at semiconductor industry demand trends as well. I think a good way to start off is, you know, overlaying the two dynamics, supply, demand, what's Lam's view on the global semiconductor supply-demand dynamics and, you know, are all of your global customers acting in a disciplined fashion?
Yeah, that's a, a great setup for me to tell you how we view the market right now. Frankly, big picture, I think of the semiconductor market as a growth cyclical industry, an emphasis on growth and an emphasis on the cyclical piece of it. We're in the middle of the cyclical downtick, from, at least from a memory standpoint, for sure, relative to where I see investment this year. Let me maybe paint big picture sort of how we see the market this year. We came into the year suggesting that wafer fab equipment investment would be in the mid-70 range, Harlan.
Mm-hmm.
When we began the year, we thought it was gonna be a little bit first half waiting. Fast-forward to our recent earnings call, and market got a little bit weaker. We are now describing an outlook that it's low-mid 70s, so a little bit softer. Softness primarily coming from memory. A little bit of a downtick maybe in foundry as well, but low-mid 70s.
Mm-hmm
... is how we see it now. It pivoted a little bit to a little bit second half-weighted relative to how we see spending coming in. I know you'll ask me, Harlan, as we go through about, "Hey, what's going on in China?" It's very topical. We actually ended up with a little bit more spending in China, I think, than we previously had thought as we got some clarification...
Mm-hmm
... on a specific process node from a specific customer. That contributed to the little bit second half waiting outlook that we have right now.
Perfect. I actually wanna rewind back a little bit before we jump into the current near midterm dynamics of the industry because the Gartner calendar 2022 market share numbers were published just very recently, right? Not surprisingly, the Lam team gained share as you grew your total systems business about 600 basis points faster than WFE last year. You grew your dry etch business 400 basis points faster than the market. You grew your deposition business 1,300 basis points faster than the market. What areas, critical layers, technology differentiation, you know, drove the strong growth and strong share dynamics for the Lam team?
Yeah, no, it's a, it's a great question. I never pay that much attention to the Gartner numbers, but obviously we are gaining share, and we intend to continue to do so. I think we've been extraordinarily successful over the last several years in delivering that performance. To understand it, you gotta parse it a little bit, and maybe I'll go through Foundry Logic, NAND, and DRAM as well. We're making excellent progress, I believe, in each segment of our business, frankly. Maybe let me unpack it, Harlan, just a little bit.
Mm-hmm.
In NAND, it was a very strong year for us last year, and frankly, we own all of the critical applications in NAND manufacturing in terms of building up the stack, that very high aspect ratio.
Yeah
... enabling etch down through the structure and the metallization. If you think about it from that standpoint, as that stack gets taller and the etch gets more difficult to do, we just benefit from that by the simple fact.
Yeah
That's one aspect of it. If you unpack foundry and logic, you gotta kinda parse it between leading edge and a little bit of the trailing node. From a leading edge standpoint, there's multiple things going on there that have driven our performance. One of the things we've been talking about for the last several years, it feels like, is strong share gains in conductor etch at a leading logic customer. You can read into that whomever you think that might be. I talk in code about this a little bit. Tim, our CEO, recently described a doubling of market share node over node as a result of that progress. That is really showing up now as that specific customer is investing.
That's a key component of that. Also in that logic segment, I think about things like advanced packaging growing. Even though it's a relatively small level of investment, the growth from our Syndion product line and our SABRE 3D product line in enabling advanced packaging is driving nice share uptick. If you think about leading edge foundry, we continue to make really good progress there as well. Frankly, some of the stuff, Harlan, we've been talking about are still sort of on the come line a little bit. We're super excited right now about progress we see ourselves making around the gate-all-around structure as FinFET and Flex to gate-all-around. That is a meaningful uptick and is gonna contribute in a big way to share gains you're gonna see from us as we go forward.
I can talk more about that as you go through the rest of your questions, Harlan. I think overall, very pleased with the progress the company's made. Our execution is extremely strong, and our technology roadmap has never been stronger.
Tim alluded, on the call, you know, given the unprecedented excess inventory situation, your memory customers are taking drastic actions, right? To rein in supply, even delaying or pushing out their technology migration roadmaps. We had the Micron team earlier today, and that was clearly something that they talked about and continue to focus on to try to rein in industry supply here. Typically, in downturns, we wouldn't see your customers pulling back on technology migration, right? Capacity add, yes. Technology migration, not so much. Is the tech migration pullback and associated higher capital intensity a big contributor to the WFE pullback this year in memory? Just as importantly, though, does this mean the potential for a sharper spending recovery as memory fundamentals start to normalize?
Yeah, I'm gonna leave that last part of the question alone, Harlan. I'm not gonna put a timeframe on anything. If I unpack that, the comments I made on WFE, the biggest contributor to the reduction in WFE this year is memory. Memory is down in a meaningful fashion, call it 40%-50% year-over-year from last year to this year. In fact, when you look across the totality of the industry, utilization is as low as I can ever remember seeing it on the memory side of the house. You normally see memory fabs run even in downturns, and in this case, utilization is dialed back and perhaps slowing some of the tech migrations down, Harlan. When I look at the individual components within memory, NAND is down even more so. That's our strongest business.
Spending is meaningfully down, utilization is down. You know, with hindsight, I can sit here and look back over the last year and explain to you how we ended up where we are, but regardless, this is where we are. As I think about the cadence of things like improving, I'm not gonna put a timeframe on it. I can't remember actually seeing as much inventory as is out there right now, having been out there before, so it's probably gonna take a little bit longer. When I think about what's gonna show up in our business when things do begin to solidify, I think the first thing you're gonna see, Harlan, is utilizations will come back up a little bit.
For Lam, that will show up in our Customer Support Business Group, the installed base business, in the spares and service component of it, right? As the tools begin to be more highly utilized, the consumption of spares and service will come back up a little bit. That'll be the first indication, to me anyway, in our own business when things begin to come back around. The next thing, you know this, Harlan, I'll remind everybody in the room, you'll start to see node conversions occurring again, right? Generally, when that happens, the constraint tools in the fab needs to get upgraded or moved forward. Generally speaking, that is a really good thing for Lam Research because we tend to be the constraint tools in a memory fab, right?
If you think about that 3D NAND stuff, the stack, the memory hole etch and so forth down through that stuff, that's the stuff that'll need to get upgraded. The customer, when that begins to occur, we get a very large share of wallet in that situation.
Yeah
... because we tend to be the stuff that needs to get upgraded. Eventually, the industry will get back to putting incremental wafer capacity in place. That's kind of the cadence I'm looking for whenever it begins to show up. That's how it'll show up in our P&L.
Any questions from the audience? If you do, raise your hand and wait for a microphone. We have one right-
I see one up front here in like row four. Do we have a mic in the room?
Yeah, we have a mic.
Yeah. Curious to, if you can talk about share gains as we transition to gate-all-around, both from your own perspective against competitors in etch and deposition , but also from other areas within WFE. For example, lithography getting to really high levels. Wondering if that will be a headwind for etch and dep positions as we transition to new architectures.
Let me talk specifically about gate-all-around, and then I'll generalize it relative to architecture and what innovation that we see happening. I think we gave some incremental disclosure in our last earnings call about the gate-all-around opportunity that we see in front of us. What our CEO talked about was, you know, when we look at the structure and how it's gonna be created, it's relatively etch-intensive from a selective etch standpoint. Those are new tools that we've brought to market that have actually done extraordinarily well. It's our SeLiS, Prevos, and Argos tools, if you wanna go have a look at the website to see what I'm talking about. There's also a good amount of new film deposition, some SiGe stuff in there, some ALD applications.
When we look at this opportunity for our company, we see an incremental $1 billion of revenue opportunity for every 100,000 wafer starts of capacity that the industry puts in place. We're excited about this. When we look at two of the record decisions that have already been made, our momentum is extremely good here. This is gonna be an exciting opportunity as the industry pivots from FinFET to gate-all-around. It is fairly etch and deposition intensive. Anyway, that's how we see that. If I was gonna step back and generalize, relative to the business that we do, etch and deposition, you see these 3D architectures evolving all over the place in the industry. I mean, I think planar to 3D NAND is pretty well understood.
We did extraordinarily well in that transition. For similar reasons, we're very excited about what we see with gate-all-around, right? It's a true 3D structure in Foundry and Logic. At some point, you know, the industry is beginning to look at how the DRAM architecture is going to evolve and potentially that influx in a 3D structure at some point as well. When you think about all of these changes architecturally, we are in the sweet spot of all of these changes, so very excited about the evolution of 3D device architectures. Advanced packaging is another example of a 3D structure when I think about it. Again, we're extremely well positioned for that. I'll pause there, see if there's anything else.
Any other questions? Nick? Oh, we got one right up here.
Got one up in the second row.
Hi. You were going through the different segments, and you didn't touch on what's happening with trailing logic.
Trailing logic?
Yes. If you just go into what you think about on leading edge, right? You mentioned there have been high inventory for memory. If you look at, you know, how much leading logic went through the pandemic, right? I mean, is there inventory building up there? What's your thoughts there?
Maybe I'll talk about the mature node and then make sure I understood the leading edge question. When you look at the totality of what's going on in WFE this year, one of the most resilient areas of spending is actually in the mature node, foundry logic space. If you think about, I guess, demand drivers, secular demand drivers in there, think about things in the industrial, automotive, power, analog side of the industry. That's what really is driving the investment profiles there. It's actually quite resilient, quite strong and fairly broad-based, honestly, when I look at the number of companies making investments in capacity there. It's not one or two.
It's a broad swath of the industry, honestly, with a little bit of a footprint in the U.S., Europe, some in Japan and some in China. It's very broad-based, I guess is what I would describe, driven by what I see as secular demand drivers in the industrial automotive side of the house. Now I'm not sure I completely got the leading edge question. Can we bring the mic back up?
When you parse, you know, semiconductor revenue into, let's say, memory, logic, and leading logic and trailing.
Uh-huh.
you saw the memory uptick, and you realized that this was way above trend, and then you knew what was gonna come in the end. When you look at the leading logic specific, right? If you look at SIA data of the sort and you try to break it out, we saw the same way above trend growth in logic, right? Leading logic, and people say it's AI and it's other factors, right? Is there a point that we may face the same that we see in memory from an inventory perspective?
Listen, I do see inventory across the totality of the industry, but nowhere near like I see in the memory side. There's an ebb and a flow to business, right? Nothing grows every single year here. There is inventory out in the channel, but there's also rising capital intensity. If you think about the cost to put a leading-edge wafer in place, it gets progressively more and more expensive. There's an aspect of the investment in the leading edge that is driven by that, in addition to just overall demand drivers like generative AI and AI servers and autonomous driving and things like that we all get excited about.
Any other questions? Talk a little bit more about your some of the new products that you're bringing to bear on the EUV process flow. I think as we move to High NA EUV in 2025, there's a lot of sensitivities, a lot of more optimization that has to be done. I think you guys are bringing to market some dynamics around the EUV process cell that could actually.
Yep.
You know, help improve a lot of these dynamics.
Yeah. Let me talk a little bit about our Dry Resist product offering. I think we first probably started talking about this just before the pandemic, actually. What it is, it's a new tool type for us, something that historically we haven't had tools in this space. What we're collaborating with ASML to do is to bring out the Dry Photoresist, which actually helps enable the productivity of the EUV tool. It's a depth of field thing in terms of what we're able to do with depositing a Dry Resist on the wafer as compared to Wet Photoresist, which is historically what the industry's done. When we look at this opportunity, actually, you will see it from a timing standpoint paired with High NA in some aspect of things.
What I would describe to you is new business for us, incremental opportunity. Everybody that every customer in the industry that uses EUV has some of our hardware in their lab evaluating what this is capable of doing. One of the things we were excited about, and again, we announced on the last earnings call, is an announcement of a second memory customer in DRAM, and our first large foundry and logic customer has selected our hardware as DTOR for this capability. Like I said, new business for us.
It's a meaningful opportunities, and when we look at how big the opportunity is, cumulatively over a five-year horizon, we believe this is a billion and a half dollars of incremental revenue for us, back half weighted in that five-year timeframe and growing beyond that, frankly, Harlan, as High NA becomes a bigger and bigger portion of the process flow. I'm very excited about this. Our engineering team has executed extremely well on this, and I think the customer poll is a great demonstration of that.
Now, if we roll up a lot of these complexity challenges that we've just talked about over the past few minutes, you know, I think another way to look at it at a high level, right, is that over the past 10 years, including this year, down year, wafer equipment spending has grown about 11% per year over the past 10 years, versus the semiconductor industry that has only grown 6%. Lam team has grown its business at 14% CAGR over that same period of time, so strong outperformance. Given the complexity challenges, much of what we talked here, the need for more installed capacity, do you anticipate WFE to continue to outgrow industry revenues? Do you anticipate Lam to continue to outgrow that trend?
Listen, it's hard for me to put a number on this percent CAGR versus that percent CAGR. What I do firmly believe is the semiconductor industry is an amazing industry, quite honestly, and enabling so much in terms of what we're doing in society today. The opportunity for this industry to be a $1 trillion industry in the future is absolutely going to happen. I don't know exactly what year. Maybe it doesn't really matter that much. I don't know, Harlan, exactly what the capital intensity in terms of WFE per revenue $ is gonna be in the future, but I do know capital intensity in terms of the cost per leading edge wafer is going up. It's getting more challenging, more difficult.
Yeah.
to manufacture these new structures like gate-all-around and an increasing layer count in 3D NAND. It's getting harder to do this stuff. I see the opportunity specifically for what Lam has done over the last several years to continue into the future as these 3D architectures get to be a bigger and bigger part of how the industry does what it does. We are enabling in that regard. I absolutely see that continuing. I'm gonna decline to put a specific number on it, Harlan.
Right.
I think the opportunity for our company at Lam is really, really good, and I'm very excited about what we're doing, what our roadmap looks like, and what we're gonna continue to do to enable the industry.
The team, you know, clearly does have a strong leadership position in 3D architectures, right? The next significant, you know, significant inflection is to 3D DRAM, right? Now, it's more towards the second half of this decade, but your customers are already working on these new novel architectures. I've actually spent some time reviewing these next generation 3D DRAM memory cell architectures, and they looked almost exactly like a 3D NAND cell architectures, right? With some enhancements, right? Would you agree with that? What is the Lam team doing to sort of leverage your dominance in 3D NAND to, you know, get more presence in, you know, the DRAM market space when this transition does happen?
I guess what I would tell you, Harlan, is it's still kind of early days to know exactly what architecture looks like in 3D DRAM. It's being worked on by everybody, though. When you look at what we're all trying to do collaboratively as an industry, you know when there's this much momentum behind it, at some point, something's gonna come out of it.
Right.
It is a true 3D structure, at least, what's being contemplated right now. I don't know for us if it will be as great as the transition from planar to 3D NAND was, but it's gonna be good, because it is, as you point out, a true 3D structure. It's still fairly far away, Harlan. Late in the decade, I think, from a timeframe standpoint.
Advanced packaging, the move to heterogeneous integration, multi-die, stack die architectures, very, very strong trend, right? We're seeing it especially focused on a lot of these You know, accelerated compute, or AI-based silicon capabilities, right? Integrating CPU, GPU, IO, memory.
All, all-
all into one package.
Yep, all the chiplet stuff. Yep.
You mentioned a little bit about this, how is the team competing in this market, and roughly what % of your business is it today, and how do you see that growth trajectory over the next few years?
Yep. Thanks for asking about that. Listen, this is an evolution that obviously we're extremely excited about. When you look at it's not super big right now, but it's growing very, very quickly, very rapidly. If you just listen to people in the industry talk about heterogeneous integration and chiplets architecture, that's what's driving this. If you decompose it a little bit relative to where Lam wins in this space, we have always had very strong product offering in silicon etch, deep silicon etch. It's our Syndion product line, which is extremely well-positioned in this space. In fact, you've seen it in TSV and image sensors for many, many years from the company. It's a very strong product line for us and very well adopted in the advanced packaging space.
A lot of the interconnect is deposited using an electroplating approach, which we're also a leader in from an industry standpoint. That's our SABRE 3D product line.
Mm-hmm.
As this segment of the market, inflex and grows... By the way, we sell other things in there, too. There's wet clean in there's some PECVD in there, but the really strong product offerings that we have are Syndion and SABRE. We benefit extensively from this transition, and we're doing everything we can to help enable it. I guess the other thing I would mention, Harlan, you know, there's not a lot of M&A left in this industry, but we did just do a small acquisition in this space, targeted more at a panel-level packaging form factor, which we think eventually becomes part of the story here. That'll be more and more of what you're seeing from us as well.
Perfect. Any questions from the audience? Let's talk about your mature technology equipment portfolio, right? Analog, microcontroller, IDMs, holding up relatively better this downturn, given the better sustainability of industrial and automotive demand trends, but also some underinvestment in mature and specialty capacity.
Yep.
the past, few years as well. Your Reliant business has been holding up relatively better. Is Reliant actually growing this year for the Lam team?
Maybe if you'll permit me, let me put it in the context of the P&L at Lam is the Customer Support Business Group, and I'll get into the Reliant piece of it. Within CSBG, there's four things: spares, service, upgrades, and then the Reliant product line. What I've described about CSBG in total, Harlan, is it's down a little bit this year.
Right.
Reliant is a component of that. I haven't specifically said what Reliant is doing this year. It is part of CSBG now. When I look at the overall broad market, you asked about the demand drivers of this. Appropriately, there's secular growth here, right?
Yeah. Right.
I mean, this is analog, microcontrollers, image sensors, drive some of this as well. When you look at the totality of that, it is holding up better, I would say, than the overall investment in WFE this year.
On the topic of your CSBG or services business, right, just a very strong backbone for the business in good times and in bad, right?
Yep.
33%-35% of your overall business, annuity-like. This year is a bit different, right? Typically, it does grow during downturns. This year, obviously a little bit different. You have big drops in utilization by your customer base, and then on top of that, you're a bit impacted by last year's equipment restrictions in China.
Yeah, that's right.
Right? It, you know, it's outperforming your systems business. Once we get back to sort of a normalized environment, given the installed base growth, given the continued focus on mature and your Reliant business, and given the higher mix of subscription-like business as you move forward in time, how do we think about the growth of CSBG over the next few years?
Yeah, let me unpack CSBG, 'cause oftentimes I'll sit through meetings like I'm having today, and it'll be the last thing anybody asks about, or I'll have to remind people, "Hey, don't forget about the Customer Support Business Group." By the way, last quarter, it was north of 40% of the revenue of the company. Again, I'll remind you, spare parts, service, equipment upgrades, and then that Reliant product line. We've already talked about the Reliant product line. I usually describe this as a business that should grow every year, but I'm acknowledging this year, actually, it's down a little bit because of the reduction in utilization, the significant reduction in utilization from the memory standpoint, in addition to the fact that we lost some of the installed base business in China.
Yeah.
Which you alluded to. This is great business. It is very cash generative. It's very profitable, in terms of just the level of investment required isn't anywhere near what designing a new piece of equipment requires. The investment footprint is a little bit more modest. Like I said, it's just, I think people sometimes forget that our tools actually will run for decades.
Yeah.
If you look at an average tool that Lam sells, over the life of the tool, on average, we generate more revenue after we sell the equipment than when we initially sell the equipment. That surprises people when I point that out to them, because I think sometimes people underappreciate the longevity of how long our equipment runs. It runs for a very long time, and it consumes spares, it has an upgrade path to it, the service comes along with the equipment running. We, we do have a part of the Reliant product line, at least we used to, although there's not a lot of used equipment coming back, but where we sometimes we'll buy equipment back, refurbish it, and resell it.
The longevity of how long we generate profit from the equipment, I think people don't really understand the duration of it. It's a great part of the business model.
Is it, or at the operating margin level, is it accretive to the overall corporate average operating margin?
It is somewhat accretive, again, because it requires a fairly modest level of investment, at least as compared to designing a new etch tool like Sense.i.
Perfect. I'm gonna switch topics a little bit here. Given the geopolitical dynamics between U.S. and China, there have been moves to restrict equipment to China domestic manufacturers. Most recent was October of last year, then we had some entity list additions in December of last year. I would assume that this is motivating China to focus on trying to develop its own domestic suppliers of equipment. It is interesting that, you know, two of the larger China domestic equipment companies saw their businesses grow almost 50% last year, when total WFE spend only grew 9%. Granted, it was off of a pretty low base.
Off.
It does raise investor concern on the threat to Lam from China domestic suppliers. How do you guys view this, threat?
You know, I think, Harlan, what you need to understand is we get better every year, and what the customer wants from us two nodes from now, we don't know how to do today. It's very difficult to do the things that this industry requires from a result on a wafer standpoint. We're doing things in the lab at Lam Research in Fremont, California, that have never been done in the world before. I don't wanna underestimate emerging set of competitors in China, but frankly, the way we win, we just keep getting-
Yeah.
better at what we do. We've been doing, what we do for 43 years. We're the best in the world, at what we do and that's how we deal with any competitive threat, Harlan, frankly, whether it's in China or anywhere else.
On the, you know, team has a target to drive 100 basis points of gross margin improvement to around 45% exiting this year. You've previously gotten as high as 47%-48% gross margins. You've done some restructuring, optimization of the manufacturing operations. You'll be benefiting from your new Malaysia factory as volumes ramp, as the business environment normalizes. How do we think about the upper bounds of the gross margin range, your operating margins, relative to the targets that you put out at your last analyst day?
Yeah, Harlan, the company is extraordinarily committed to the financial model that we put out in early 2020. No change to that. The way we're gonna get there is exactly the things that you're mentioning here. It's a difficult year for the industry right now. Business is down in a meaningful way. What we are doing at Lam Research is taking this opportunity to make the company better. At the end of the day, the customers will spend whatever the customers are gonna spend. There's very little in the near term that I'm gonna do, or anybody at Lam is gonna do about that. What we are focusing on is making the company better this year. Part of what that is is restructuring the footprint of the company.
Yeah.
We have made significant investments close to customers, which tends to be in the Asia region of the world, in the Malaysia manufacturing facility, the Korea Technology Center, and the engineering capability that we've put in India. Increasingly, as business improves, and I don't know when that's gonna happen, but I do know it will happen, we are doing everything that we can to set the company up to be better when business gets better, is how I've been kinda describing it. The growth when it comes back will be in a significant fashion supported from that Malaysia factory. The benefit from that from a cost standpoint is proximity to customer. A large amount of what we spend money on is air freight, moving our equipment around. That factory is closer to the customer base in Asia-
Yeah.
We'll benefit from that. We are working with our supply chain partners to transition their capability along with us to Malaysia. That'll be a benefit from an efficiency standpoint. That's very much what we're focused on right now. In addition to, we're also this year embarking on a digital transformation activity that essentially is working to re-engineer all of the business processes at the company, and again, with an eye towards over the next several years, making this company more efficient and delivering best-in-class profitability. I'm excited about what we're trying to do here relative to just efficiency of the company and working to make ourselves better.
No, as a quick segue to that, for the things that you guys have control over, as you mentioned, you guys have just executed extremely well. Give us a little bit more visibility on what internal processes or programs that you've put in place to mitigate or prevent the type of supply chain disruptions that you and the industry have seen, you know, 2020, 2021?
Yeah.
-2022.
Yeah, no, it's a great question. As we came through all of the supply chain challenges we had over the last 18 months, we did a variety of things like multi-sourcing different components so that we're not just procuring things from one supplier. We're also working on an inventory strategy. We're probably over time, Harlan, gonna hold a little bit more inventory on the balance sheet to mitigate some of the challenges that we just came through. Yeah, the as part of the business process re-engineering, we're also gonna be thinking holistically about, okay, when we get back to the growth aspect of the business, how are we gonna make sure the supply chain challenges-
Yeah.
we just came through, we learn from that, and that's very much a part of what we're doing.
Perfect. Doug, thank you very much for your insights.
Thanks, Harlan.
Appreciate your participation today.
You bet. Thank you for having us.
Yeah. Thank you.