Good afternoon. My name is Carrie and I will be your conference operator today. At this time, I would like to welcome everyone to the Las Vegas Sands Corporation 4th Quarter Earnings Conference Call. All lines have been placed on mute to prevent any background noise. After the speakers' remarks, there will be a question and answer session.
I would now like to turn the conference over to Mr. Daniel Briggs. Thank you. Mr. Briggs, you may begin your
conference. Thank you, operator. Before I turn the call over to Mr. Adelson, let me remind you that today's conference call will contain forward looking statements that we are making under the Safe Harbor provisions of federal securities laws. The company's actual results could differ materially from the anticipated results in those forward looking statements.
Please see today's press release under the caption Forward Looking Statements for a discussion of risks that may affect our results. In addition, we may discuss adjusted net income, adjusted diluted EPS and adjusted property EBITDA, which are non GAAP measures. A definition and a reconciliation of each of these measures to the most comparable GAAP financial measures are included in the press release. Please note that this presentation is being recorded. With that, let me introduce our Chairman, Mr.
Sheldon Pedersen.
Thanks, Dan. Thank you for joining us today and Happy Chinese New Year. To everyone. I'm sure each of you is busy looking over our press release, so let me take this opportunity to provide some commentary on yet another record setting quarter for the company and then we'll get to your questions. I'm very proud to say that in addition to the company achieving another record quarter, we also just concluded the most successful year in our history.
Net revenue for 2010 was 6,850,000,000 dollars a 50% increase over the $4,560,000,000 achieved in 20.09. That's a 50% increase in gross revenue. The company's net revenue actually. The company's consolidated net revenue actually. The company's consolidated EBITDA for 2010 was in excess of $2,200,000,000 compared to $1,090,000,000 in 2,009, an increase of more than 100% and a figure which strongly reflects our continued growth.
It would take too long to list successes the company achieved this past year, but I would like to thank our management team and each of our team members across the globe for the role they played in our success in 2010. Our EBITDA has now increased in 6 consecutive quarters, and I'm confident that growth will continue in 2011, a belief which is already validated by our results in the just completed month of January. Let me now make a couple of quick comments on this most recent quarter. Net revenue for the 4th quarter was a record $2,020,000,000 an increase of nearly 57% record 7 $39,000,000 up 141% from the same quarter in 2,009. And as I noted before, the company's consolidated EBITDA has now increased each quarter since the Q2 of 'nine, quite a record.
With the opening of Marina Bay Sands as an obvious catalyst, company wide property EBITDA grew from $371,000,000 in the Q1 of 2010 to 739,000,000 dollars in quarter 4, a nearly 100% increase. We saw significant EBITDA increases EBITDA 47.5% compared to 2,009. In Las Vegas, EBITDA increased 19 point 7% for the year, while Sands Bethlehem saw its EBITDA increased 144 percent in the last two quarters of 2010 versus the last two quarters of 2,009, which were the first two complete quarters after the property opened. EBITDA margin for the Q4 of 2010 increased 1209 basis points to record 36.7 percent compared to 23 point 8% in the Q4 of 2009. Margin increases in Macau, Las Vegas and Bethlehem along with the high margin Singapore all contributed to the increase.
Adjusted diluted EPS was 0.42 dollars in the Q4 of 2010 compared to just 0 point in the Q4 of 2009. Let me now take a few minutes to by the way, what I want to say is that a fully diluted number would be 816 shares compared to the 600 and about 80,000,000 shares that are listed in some of the wire services. So fully diluted brings it up to 800. I don't have maybe Ken will give us this later. How much it would be on the number of shares that are generally thought of?
The diluted number at the end of quarter was $806,000,000 it's close to your $8.60
What I want you to say is in the Q and A period, I'd like you to say what it is what the earnings are per share on the 6, I think, 79,000,000 shares that are indicated on the wire services share summary. Let me now take a few minutes discussing our various operations starting in Singapore. During the Q1 of 2011, most of the major remaining elements of Marina Bay Sands will be launched, including the Art Science Museum and the Light and Water Show on the Bay, as well as the opening of the Lion King. These events will all drive additional visitation and produce increased earnings at the property. We're leaving there next this coming week, the end of this coming week to be there for the opening of the Earth Science Museum on 17th of this month.
Our MICE business continues to grow. And in fact, the property was just named Asia's Best Mice Hotel by leading convention and exhibition publication. This has sparked a friendly rivalry between Marina Bay Sands and the winner of this award for the previous 2 years, our own Venetian Macau. What's important about this distinction is that it means Las Vegas Sands now owns the 2 best MICE facilities in what is still one of the fastest growing regions in the world. On a macro level in Singapore, thanks to the contributions of both IRs, visitor arrivals there have increased by more than 20% from 2,009 and each month of the year, with the property's results and its position in the market.
In 2,003, the year before we opened the Sands Macau, Macau was roughly a a of Las Vegas at $23,500,000,000 in 2010. Early estimates on the size of the market in our property's original master plan, which includes its own subway stop to open in 2012, the market is all but certain to grow. As for our results this past quarter, we are extremely happy with the growth of of our highest margin mass gaming business in Singapore. Overall, gross gaming revenue from our mass stables and slots increased 11.9 percent to $310,000,000 versus $277,000,000 in the 3rd quarter. Non rolling drop grew more than 5% from the 3rd quarter to the 4th quarter, a run rate of 20% plus annual growth.
Our slot handle was up an amazing 35% from the 3rd quarter. Our slot win per unit per day was up 12.5% sequentially, even though we increased capacity during the quarter. Right now, we are in the process of adding 300 more units because the market demands it. Turning to the VIP segment now. If we annualize the results from the 3rd Q4, our rolling win would exceed $1,000,000,000 just from the rolling program, but that is just right now in the infancy of the market.
We are confident that number will grow as the market matures just like Lucado did. We are confident that number will grow as the market matures, but we're still learning the seasonality of the business even been through our 1st Chinese New Year in Singapore, which we think will be a huge positive catalyst for our rolling program. We did see some softness in November, but that was bookended by a strong golden week period in October and healthy volumes during the December holidays. Remember, we are earning while we are learning in Singapore. We are adding Experience casino executives to our sales team there and we just recently enhanced our private aircraft capabilities in the region, allowing us to transport a higher volume of premium customers.
The potential in Singapore is clearly promising, especially when you remember these two things. Singapore is located in the heart of the world's fastest growing region, and we only have one competitor with whom to share this exciting new market. Turning to Macau, since Channel Limited completed yet another record quarter, net revenues increased more than 13% to 1,100,000,000
dollars However,
property EBITDA for the quarter increased 36.7 percent to $333,000,000 versus $243,000,000 in 2,009. These are all same store sales. On the topic of EBITDA, and we touched on this a bit last quarter, it continues to be a misplaced infatuation on gross gaming revenue in Macau. While pundits scramble to report our market share figures figures based upon gross gaming revenue, we believe EBITDA should be the true metric on which performance is judged. That is where our focus lies, making it matter at the bottom line.
For example, in the Q3 of 2010, that's because not everybody's Q4 numbers are out yet, a percentage of market EBITDA was more than double that of SJAM, who had 30% of the gross revenue, but less than 15% of the EBITDA. In the Q3 of 2010, Wynn Macau and SJAM accounted for roughly 44% of the market's gross gaming revenue, but only 35% of the market's EBITDA. Sands China, on the other hand, had slightly less than 20% of the gross gaming revenue, but nearly as much EBITDA as those 2 competitors combined at about 34% of the market's total EBITDA. Remember, you can't put gross gaming revenue in the bank. Turning to operations in the U.
S. Our business here in Las Vegas remains steady. We continue to see an increase in nice bookings through 2011 and into 2012 and the launch of our exclusive marketing alliance within InterContinental Hotel Group is set for the end of this current quarter. The Pennsylvania Sands Bethlehem set records for both EBITDA and EBITDA margin, and we are looking forward to additional opportunities to grow our business there, starting with the opening of our 300 room hotel this May.
We are
also making significant progress on other pieces of our development plans at Bethlehem and we will be sharing additional detail in the weeks to come. Finally, let me finish my prepared remarks by taking a few minutes to discuss our ongoing efforts to fill our development by pipeline. As many of you have heard me say, Marina Bay Sands is the greatest weapon site the development company could ever hope to Since its opening, we have visited with government and terrorism officials from a variety of countries At their request, Mike Levin and I, along with other members of our development staff, have traveled to several different countries to discuss the possibility of developing a Marina Bay Sands like integrated resort or in some cases a co tie strip type development. Our history of winning competitive bids and our track record of running highly successful IRs should make us the logical choice in most favored company for places such as Japan, Korea or Taiwan as those countries move closer to approving integrated resource. We are also looking at other countries in Europe as an example, but these are the 3 countries in the Far East that are on which we're having conversations with whom we're having conversations.
Closer to home, we are following the process in Florida, Texas and Massachusetts. And if the economics they have provided successful development opportunity, we will surely consider it. We approach all future opportunities with the same development strategy. That strategy is simple, realize a significant return on our investment and maximize value for shareholders. So with that, Mike, Rob and Ken are also here to answer your questions.
So let's go to Q and A.
And your first question comes from Janet Boucher with Sanford Bernstein.
Thank you. I want to ask
a little more about Macau, if I could. You have high margins now and you've been growing them over time. You're up to around the 3% to
2% level. What do you think
the potential is given that there's some wage pressure from the government and competitors right now?
Hi, Janet, it's Mike. Our management team there has really done an extraordinary job at managing the cost structure against the revenues. I think we have had wage pressure. We've announced some wage increases this year. But in general, we think we have a pretty good handle on all our expenses.
We should get some more improvement in the EBITDA margin. I don't think it's going to be spectacular in terms of numbers, but we still have a way to go. I think there's some improvement we can still get. I'm very confident with the people there today that they can very effectively manage their costs and there are other areas of opportunity we're looking at all the time. The wage pressure now is pretty much under control for another year at least and I think it's going to stay pretty well because we've handled it so far.
Mike, could you give us an update as well on Lot 3? You have a time constraint of April 2013. Do you think you'll be able to do something selling. What has to happen for that process to begin?
We're still waiting for the final situation with the government on the apartments. I think I feel very confident we'll get something in this quarter. There's some points of negotiation still going on with that, but we're very positive. On-site 3, you're correct. We do have a timeframe on a site 3.
Frankly, I think we're waiting to see how we do with 5 and 6 in terms of getting it open and getting the employees and the facilities necessary to make it successful before we actually start Site 3. We're quite confident though now should we want an extension on 3, we'll be able to get it. If not, we do own it and the potential of monetizing it might be very well there for us.
Janet, this is Sheldon. I wanted to point out that in the last day, we've received the document for some of the detail on the continued negotiation for the contract for modernization of the 4 season service departments. So this is not a dead issue. It's very much alive. And just yesterday, we received a couple of pages of issues, And it looks like most of the substantive issues are completed and there was just a little tweaking left to do on the
you comment a
little more about that? Those results were just a little less stellar than your other results.
There was a whole problem in the Plaza Casino at the Four Seasons basically. That's really what it is. And in fact, that situation has reversed itself in the last few weeks. I mean, it basically was a whole problem on the high end of the process in reporting.
Thanks very much.
You're welcome.
Your next question comes from Mark Strawn with Morgan Stanley.
Hi, guys. You mentioned that you're still learning the seasonality in Singapore. Can you give us a sense of what those trends were like on the VIP side throughout the quarter and perhaps into January if possible? And then a quick follow-up on Vegas.
Mark, it's Rob. Obviously, Sheldon referenced on the opening remarks, the strength of October in Golden League and October was very, very strong. We certainly fell off in November. We saw some very soft weeks that picked up considerably very strong Christmas and New Year's. But I think we're learning the market every day there and we're just about now experiencing our first Chinese New Year's.
And it's a seasonality issue. It's a brand new building and it's also just a market that we're just getting our rooms open, all of our restaurants are starting to happen. Sheldon referenced the new opening of the rest of the facilities. So, it's a new place. And I guess, I would look at the Macau numbers and kind of chuckle it.
We would have thought we're heading for $25,000,000,000 $30,000,000,000 I think Singapore is going to be is wonderful. It's already proven to be very, very strong in the mass segment. It's incredibly strong. And I think the seasonality, we're 6 months, 7 months into this building. This is going to take some time to figure out how big is Chinese New Year's talking to them last night, it's extraordinary there, the volumes.
And we'll keep learning and we'll keep growing. But I think the having 250, 300,000,000 people a couple of hours early by airplane, it's hard believe this market can continue to really grow and there was a blip in November, but we'll wait and
see how the Q1 pans out. We're not sure of the seasonality of that. That's right. But I'd like to point out to Janet and to the rest of the listeners, as Mike said that the hold on the rolling chip volume, which is the majority of the activity at the Four Seasons Plaza Casino was only 1.55%. And the adjusted property EBITDA for the quarter was 12.2%, whereby in 2,009, it was 20.4%.
I could tell you that it is a volatile result there, but I could say that we have exceeded that full quarter 'nine, dollars 20,000,000 just in January alone in volatile is because we have a limited number of junket reps there and we're bringing in new junket reps and we hope to make it less volatile and of course more
predictable. Mark, yesterday was about Las Vegas. Yes, about January, you're going to talk about January in Singapore, seasonality really in the economy.
Do I have any comment on the seasonality?
No, as of January, in particular in MBS.
Well, let's put it this way. Our EBITDA is over $100,000,000 in January, over. And what I'd like to say, Ken, can we say what it is? Sure. All of it could be $100,000,000 and one dollars could be $200,000,000 That's a lot closer than $100,000,000 We're over $110,000,000 for the month of January in Singapore.
And when you talk about the annualized number, last January, I repeated this before at our shareholders meeting, I said that I took the conservative approach and said that we would earn $1,000,000,000 in EBITDA. So if we capitalize if we annualize what we did in January, we'll already be about $1,000,000,000 in EBITDA for Singapore. I wouldn't let 1 month's drop in rolling volume determine what the future is for Singapore. We're in a very, very hot market that has not been addressed before. The 2 properties will, as I said during my prepared remarks, we hope not exceed, but it will follow the pattern of dramatic we could never do it.
We we could never do it. We didn't know the Chinese market and we were the foreigner, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. We paid back our entire cost of the property substantial contributor for to which Singapore will be a substantial contributor for the company. If you look at where we were, we would like a 0.5 $1,000,000,000 EBITDA in 2008. What was the number, Ken?
We were about $1,000,000,000 in 2009 'nine with $2,200,000,000 in 'ten. And our run rate right now starting with January in same store sales in Macau and in Singapore is up significantly. And I think that the run rate we'll experience might bring us to another $1,000,000,000 number. So we are experiencing a very what we call predictable and reliable growth trajectory. So we have gone up steadily over the last several years and we see no reason why we won't continue to go up steadily.
Mark, I've got a question on Las Vegas, I think.
Yes. Thanks very much for that answer. Just really quickly on Vegas, it looks like you guys have done some work on the promotional side. I'm guessing that perhaps some of that's on the comp room side. Maybe if you could give us any color there?
And that's my last question. Thanks.
Yes. Mark, thank you. We have sort of changed our mix considerably over the last couple of months in Vegas. We have improved our group penetration. Our group numbers for 2011 are basically on the books today compared to last year at over double what they were at the same time.
We experienced over 90,000 room nights in the month of January, which was significantly ahead of last year and we're still booking. We've actually increased our group room allotments. We've lowered our comp allotments considerably to get a better customer in, which may cause some short term occupancy looks that looks down, but the cash component to us is actually better. And we continue to move those numbers forward. I think Vegas right now the group market everybody would probably agree has come back very strongly.
Rates are somewhat under pressure, but we've seen a little bit of an increase in the January group number rate and it's starting to go up to a reasonable number. There is much more competition now on the FIT business due to more 5 star rooms in the markets and cause a problem to open. That will be competitive and difficult. And I guess lastly, our expectations for April. And we think that will fill a lot of the voids that April.
And we think that will fill a lot of the voids in the competitive environment, what we call the transient part of the marketplace.
We know that the subject of comps has been played out all across Las Vegas, but we've taken a different position. We've essentially cut out all of our comps except the most highly rated players. No more are we packaging deals with to try to be competitive with others. There's no more comp rooms given out. There's no more RFP.
There's no food and beverage. There's no shopping credits. There's no restaurant credits. There's no showroom credits. We're selling rooms.
And we see that it's resulting in a substantial increase in cash income.
Your next line question comes from Shaun Kelley with Bank of America.
Hi, good afternoon guys. Just wanted to start maybe with getting your quick thoughts on kind of the latest on Sites 56, obviously, a huge initiative there. And specifically, kind of what's going on in the labor front, Any kind of insight on when you're going to be able to kind of ramp up the labor there? And what the latest is probably for the
3,000 workers from the Galaxy construction force finishing that property. With that, that will give us the ability to multiply that by 1 up to 6,000 more. We stand at about 3,500 workers on the site today. At this particular juncture, we're still planning to open a portion of Phase 1 at the end of this year. That portion of Phase I will be approximately close to 1,000 rooms.
1 of the 2 casinos, appropriate food and beverage and the paisa club and VIP rooms, that would be at the Shangri La and Traders facilities. That's the worst case scenario that we're looking at now. It could be better if in fact we get more employees coming in. We've got the approvals for them. We just have to match the one for 1.
And so we're just looking to get the McNeese coming off of Galaxy to do it. We get reports every week about it. That's the latest report, which I've seen the day before yesterday, which indicates no change in that particular plan positively or negatively.
That's helpful. And then just I guess when do you think Mike you'd be at like kind of a full property run rate? I mean obviously there's over 6,000 rooms you're looking to get open there. So kind of it would open in phases. When do you think you're kind of at was a more indicative kind of full run rate?
It's difficult to say at this point, the completion of Phase 1, which will get us to about 4,000 rooms is actually on schedule to get
us to about 4,000
rooms is actually on schedule for May of 'twelve, probably in that area May of 'twelve. What happens after that really is going to be dependent on 2 things, not only the construction work and on the availability of workers to service the hotels. We still have some very significant concerns about the people who are going to make the beds and clean the rooms and clean the facility and whatever on the line. And we're waiting very patiently to see how Galaxy works it out with their facility. It comes up really they should be starting to open April, May or June of this year.
So I can't predict when the last 2,000 rooms will get in there. Construction wise, I think it's planned for the end of 'twelve or probably the beginning of 'thirteen at this point. But frankly, that's really going to depend upon the actual service labor available.
Great. Thanks. And then just one on Singapore, if I could. Obviously, some of the non gaming started to show some continuing ramp there. How should we think about where you guys are right now in the curve?
And can those numbers continue to move higher from even these levels? Or are these more of a kind of the right run rate in terms of what you're
seeing? We're running in the mid to high 80s now for occupancy. I mean, it's a few days now quite before Chinese New Year that have dropped down a little bit, but now it's pretty kicking right up. Our occupancy numbers are getting close to the 90% target. Our MICE business in the 1st couple of months of this year is good.
We still need to do some work there, but we think over time it's going to come with the potential. We are really getting close to the occupancy potential now the rate structure is very good. We're very we've got a good rate going. Our restaurant business is up considerably from where it's been. And I think we're probably 80% to 85% for the potential on the property
for this moment in its lifestyle or in its
pretty well ramped up at this point. More you're going to see when some more clubs and some more retail. Retail is a little bit slower than we like. We're open about 2 60 stores now, 2 50 255, 260. We've got about 40 stores to go that had a decent month in December, but it's still slower than we'd like.
It's probably about 55%, sixty percent of the way there on the EBITDA line. And
That's because the subway is not
yet open. Yes. When that's If we take anybody off, I think it will be fine. So yes, our if you in the Q1, our annualized sales were about $9.82 a square foot or was in the Q1 and the Q4. So we're getting there.
But that's the biggest piece to ramp from here is long term MICE bookings in 'twelve and 2013, 2014 and the shopping mall. The hotel I think is well within our expectations now.
And just one last one on the
mall if I could. Just I mean any sense on either what kind of the current either current run rate NOI margins are there or kind of what like what kind of EBITDA that generated in 4Q? I know you don't usually split it out, but that'd be really helpful. Thanks.
It's about in the mid-80s EBITDA on the coming in on the mall revenue today. That's what I've seen in the last month. But it's really I can't give you a number that's going to be consistent over time. That should build up even higher than that. But I don't know if that's real.
December is of course, December is a little different than November and different from October. So we're still in the early stages. But the long term future of the mall and our business plan is to eventually dispose of the mall. And if you put a cap rate on that of 4 or 5 and you can see that we can do $170,000,000 to $200,000,000 of EBITDA out of there by 2013 or so. That's a lot of money in the bank for us going forward.
So that's what we're watching.
Great. Thanks.
Your next question comes from Joe Greff with JPMorgan.
Good afternoon, everyone. I have one Macao related question, one Singapore related question. Can you just discuss some of your efforts in Nikkal increasing your junket VIP related volumes? And then in the Q4, was there a big difference in the mix between direct and junket VIP volumes at the niche and the cow? I think that was referenced in the earnings release?
And then for my Singapore question, can you just talk to me about the plan to replace Tom, by just giving you a near term and a longer term perspective? Thank you.
Joe, let's start with opportunities in Macao visavis junkets. We think that our business in Macao since David, Siskin and Tracy joined, I think it's clear these guys made a big difference and we're seeing a nice move in the right direction. The 2 places we're concentrating on in 11 beyond is the opportunity in the junket side. And it takes a lot of there's a lot of issues there. It's relationships.
It's service. It's trying to hard make sure that these guys do themselves as critical to our business plan. I think you'll see us it's hard on this call to explain all the issues there, but we have a lot of challenges, which we're meeting every day. This came back and David understands it very well as is Ed. And it will be a focal point for our growth in Macao.
We think it's a huge upside for us on the junket play and not the premium side. Same goes with premium slots. I think the success in premium slots, again, Ed and Dave have work cut out for them. It's relationships. It's customer focus.
It's the marketing side. But we think there's a lot of potential. Our slot numbers are great on the mass side. We've captured the market on the mass side in the best way. There's challenges though clearly VIP side of slots.
We hope that we our efforts will pay off in 2011 and 2012 and beyond. We think there's great potential to grow our business in Macao, both top line and EBITDA. And although we've done great stuff in the mass side, there's opportunity in both those areas. Your second question related to junkets I'm sorry, can you just take your Macao junket question versus premium?
Just generally when you discuss your Venetian Macau 4th quarter results, you talk about the rolling chip volumes, the mix between direct and junket.
Gary, you want to take it?
Yes. So
if you compare it, I don't know if
Venetian Macau has
all of the operating properties, if you will, in Macau. Percentage goes from about 16% to about 24
percent. Okay.
And Joe that's used up by 4 seasons, which is the highest one. For Venetian, it's 18.6 percent or about $2,200,000,000 of the roll.
Perfect.
And then the comment or any kind of commentary on the spot at Marina Bay Sands on Tomarazzi, please?
Sure. Right now, George Tanasevich is Interim CEO for the building. George has been there with us since the very beginning. He is extremely well connected with everything in Singapore from the government to all the regulatory situations and the construction and the people the architect and all the people that built the building. We beefed up the operations there over the last couple of months underneath Tom and also the marketing and sales operation, which is basically doing a lot better now than it was previously.
So we're not really essentially in a rush. We're out the search now for the selection process for the CEO of Singapore. George has been told he is a candidate. He's our global development guy. We frankly not like to lose him to job because it's important to us in global development.
But we're out to search and the search has been distributed and we'll be developing candidates. But once again, I would say, we're very confident that George could sit there and handle what has to be handled on a daily basis. So we're not in a rush. So we'll be very careful with the selection. I should mention also that most of you probably know this, I don't want to be redundant, but these particular roles who run these some of our integrated resource.
And it's very hard to find and complexity at some of our integrated resorts. And it's very hard to find people who can adjust to the 7 or 8 or 9 businesses that exist under the roof of these places. So it could be somebody from any of these industries, but we're looking for a broad based business person who can literally manage and lead a multiple of businesses on time. And they don't come to you every day. So it's not an easy search to do.
We're very confident George has a lot of the skills that might be necessary, but we want to make sure we take a look at this time
too. Your next question comes from Felicia Hendrix Barclays Capital.
Hi, guys.
Hi, Felicia.
Hi. My question for you, you gave us some nice color on the 2011 group business in Las Vegas and how that's shaping up. I'm just wondering, is there anything on the books for 2012, what that might look like? And, I'm assuming that pricing for what you could see in 2012 is higher and better?
I got it this morning. Yes. Right now we're talking about for 2012, we're forecasting what we have today, tentative and actual, about 781,000 room nights, which is more what we have today for the last year. And our forecasted ABR is close to 2 $100 for next year versus this year's forecast of ABR of $180,000,000
Okay. That's great. Thanks. And then just moving to Singapore, whoever wants to take this, your slot win per unit per day is obviously outstanding and you're adding more machines there to address that. Just wondering what the capacity is there because I'm assuming that's going to be absorbed pretty quickly?
Yes. Listen, I think the story in Singapore, there was a time when $1,000,000,000 of the departmental casino income was considered a big reach. I think you now look confident in Singapore and say we're going to reach $1,000,000,000 out of slots and mass tables. I mean, I know the focus is somewhat on the miss, sequential quarter miss on the rolling boards. Extraordinary to me, I just came back from Singapore.
We had 300 units last night. We basically maxed out. We ran in the high 90s in terms of occupancy on those gains. So I think slots just keep growing. The story to me in Singapore is the amazing growth in slots quarter to quarter coupled with the growth in the non rolling tables affords you the opportunity to probably get to $1,500,000,000 I mean in the near future someday it's 11 or it's late 11,000,000,000 you're going to see $1,500,000,000 of cumulative revenue at a 65, 66, 67 point margin, which means there'll be a day in some time we're talking about $1,000,000,000 EBITDA without a rolling ship across the table, which to me is pretty extraordinary for a place of people a year ago question whether it can make $1,000,000,000 The slot business there is exemplary in every way.
We keep full with the mix. I mean, Andrew McDowell and the team there are keep moving the games around. We're trying to maximize what obviously an opportunity far beyond what we experienced in Macau years ago. We'll add 300 games by the end of Q1. And we think the absorption is simple, made back in that difficult.
We think we should with our marketing, our mix and this better thought process as it relates to slot machines, we're hoping to see that market exceed $1,000,000,000 between us and RWS. And I think those guys have done a terrific job as well. So clearly, the slot business there is extraordinary. I just worry about, honestly, overcapacity, undercapacity in weekends, holidays, where we're going to run 90%, 100%. And for those of you who work in markets like Las Vegas, it's unheard of.
But it's a fact of life. Dollars 1,000,000 slot days now are pretty much routine. We're now heading for $2,000,000 open during Chinese New Year's to see $2,000,000 slot days. So we couldn't be more as much as we're looking to improve and get our rolling ship business where we want it to be and we're going to get there. We couldn't be happy with the growth, sequential growth and January growth in slots and mass tables.
I think it's Yes, 65, 66, 67. I mean, to me, the story in Singapore is $1,000,000,000 lateral and ship customers. So we couldn't be more pleased that we're seeing the swap business and mass tables with
a whole percentage base in
the mid '20s, 'twenty two, 'twenty three, 'twenty four and the volumes there are the year the quarter on quarter growth is 5 plus percent and we see a continued trend in January. So we're very, very pleased about those businesses.
What I'd like to say is that we haven't said before that we have not given up and we've accelerated our quest for additional new executive talent. And in that respect, we just have 2 new guys that are joining us that will be based in Singapore. So I'll let Rob tell you about 1 in the casino and I'll let Mike tell you about the other guy in sales.
So Mark Giuliano, I know the rumor has been out that Mark is joining us and he is. He's moving over in a couple of weeks full time. Actually, he's moving over this weekend full time. And Mark will be involved in the casino side. We're still sorting out all the relationships, but we feel he's a good addition to our team over there.
And again, we keep looking to get stronger and smarter and more intelligent of the market. I think market adds real value. So it will be a full time MBS employee by this weekend actually. Mike?
Yes. We've also hired Senior VP Sales and Marketing for Asia based in Singapore, a man by the name of John Bimbs, a former Starwood executive who's been in Asia before. He's been here for the last couple of weeks. He'll be back in Singapore next week and then shortly thereafter permanently. We beefed up our sales and marketing team all over the country now and in jobs that we haven't had before, which will help our MICE business both for Singapore as well as for Macao.
And we'll be announcing this week 2 additional employees in our project development area, design and construction, 1 from Disney and one from Gaylord, who will be coming in. They both have signed up and they'll be they will be announced by them in terms of new development projects that we're working on. So I think most of you have seen that we've also added a new position in human resources and we're pretty well staffed up to for the battle ahead in every way that we weren't a while ago able to do.
Thank you, Mike. Thanks.
Your next question comes from David Katz with Jefferies.
Hi, afternoon. This may seem as somewhat of an odd question, but as I sort of look at the financial profile, particularly past this year, the leverage continues to come down dramatically and the cash flow continues to ramp up. Have you given any thought at any point to returning capital to shareholders and through dividends or other vehicles? And what thoughts do you have in that area?
Well, I have fantasies about it.
I don't know if I
should follow that up. No, no follow-up on that. Since the Edelson family still owns 52%, if the Board were to declare a dividend, we get 52% of it. That would allow me to feel free to travel and buy bigger plane with more than 2 engines because of the cost of fuel. All baloney aside, we've not talked about it.
As a matter of fact, yesterday, Ken came up to me with a proposal that we paid down our $2,000,000,000 something the next 18 months to 24 months of outstanding debt in Macau. We have no rush to pay whatever scheduled amortization payments throughout Singapore, we could very easily meet. He wants to make us debt free in Macau except for 56, which hasn't opened yet. So we'll be debt free in the other three properties if we pursue that route. And then we will upstream dividends to pay off the U.
S. Restricted book. So in terms of deleveraging, I've been saying that for years and I know back in 'eight when kind of dark looking, everybody said, well, he's talking about paying off instead of becoming debt free. We're talking about keeping the company going. And of course, that was never an issue to me visavis having put in the $1,000,000,000 and people are telling me today it was the best bet I ever made.
But I say the best gamble I ever made was my second marriage and I hit a grand slam jackpot on that one. So that was a good bet and so wasn't the big deal. It looks like we are delevering now it looks like, I mean, we've got all this cash. We've got $2,000,000,000 $3,000,000,000 in cash. We have like $3,000,000,000 in credit lines, unused, untapped, and we're earning 1,000,000,000 of dollars this year.
I don't want to say because it will be considered guidance, but when I said that we would earn $1,000,000,000 in Singapore $3,000,000,000 for the year, I have no reason to think that we're not going to achieve that, if not more. So we're generating an awful lot of cash flow. And to have cash or not to have cash, having cash is better and no debt.
Okay. Thank you very much.
Your next question comes from Bill Lerner with Union Gaming Group.
Thanks. Hey, guys. Maybe this is for Rob. Can you talk a minute, Rob, just about the overlap or maybe lack of overlap in players across your system? In particular, I know in the past, there was some concern about cannibalization between, of course, Singapore and Macau.
We've chatted about that, but I think we should get more color now, I think, from you on how much overlap there is and what's the difference in those types of players?
Yes. It's a very different market, Bill. I mean, we talked about that. I think, obviously, the growth engine for Macau has been Mainland China. We'll continue that for the future.
Not to say there isn't demand out of Mainland Hong Kong for Singapore because there is some demand. There is some overlap. I don't think it's it hasn't obviously impacted the numbers in Macao as they move to $30,000,000,000 But Singapore still is mainly reliant upon the region being there's 200,000,000, 300,000,000 people within a 2 hour plane ride or bus ride or car ride or walk between Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, etcetera, Vietnam. I think that the push in the business there will continue to be that region. We have been honestly pleasantly surprised by the very upper tier Mainland customer who wants a more escape getaway from Macau and comes down for 3, 4 days.
And that tends not to be the core Macau customer, it tends to be more of a upper echelon mainlander who wants to go for a real vacation and spend 3, 4, 5 days in Singapore. And let's not forget, we've talked about many times the importance of the private wealth issue in Singapore. There's so much money is so much capital is resident there for private wealth. And I think that bodes very well as does the access into Singapore is still extraordinary. But we're not seeing we've had very little difficulty managing the demand.
And customers tell us, we don't tell customers where they want to go. But for Chinese New Year's, I will tell you that demand in Singapore has been a pleasant problem. We have too much demand and we're it's amazing business. Same here in Nevada and Las Vegas, we will be dancing all weekend with the rabbits. And Macau continues to do amazing business.
I mean Macau is extraordinary place. So at this point, it has not been an issue. We did anticipate, but it's so far not been an issue for us.
Okay. Thanks, Rob. And one follow-up since you mentioned Chinese New Year. I know it's so much less fun to talk about Vegas than what you're doing in Asia these days. But what just as it relates to Chinese New Year in Vegas, what did advanced reservation suggest?
What are you experiencing now as you're kind of Extraordinary.
I think demand in Las Vegas is great because the city needs these big holidays and we've got it. I think we're participating as much as anybody else face our LDS is privileged to be in the only company in the world with 2 different gaming licenses in Asia. We're feeling the punch of that. We're completely sold out in every level. We'll have a capacity issue in the table game this weekend.
And we expect to have an extraordinary year of the rabbit. But people who are concerned about Nevada being hurt by Asia, by Singapore Macau should relax because just the opposite is happening. We get all that residual business that comes here in Nevada because of the relationships with those customers. They know us. They know who we are.
Same, I think the Wynn folks participate very well and so does MGM. I think the they have a very, very strong holiday in Las Vegas, very strong.
Great. Thanks guys.
Your next question comes from Robin Farley with UBS.
Did you send her another Robin?
We lost her.
Your line is open. Your next question comes from Larry Kaltznik from Kraft.
Hello?
Hello, Larry. Well, that was
a little change of a name. Listen, most of my questions have been answered. So the question I have is, Las Vegas Sands is a name, I guess, from the past. Is there a chance, Sheldon, you're considering exchange to something more contemporary with the business is within the company?
I'd tell you, I brought it up before our Board, Larry, and there are people who say that since we are expansion, the bulk of our expansion will be in foreign. It's good to identify with Las Vegas and say that we come out of Las Vegas. So Las Vegas is bringing its imprimatur and its style to other countries. But it doesn't seem to prevent us from talking to several governments. I want to tell you that not necessarily in Asia, but in Europe, we're talking about grants and incentives, which means they're going to follow the economic development model that has been successful in many countries heretofore.
And we're going to look at getting subsidized and tax holidays and lower gaming taxes and all the good stuff from other countries when we bring our developments there. So that's the reason why we've got several people that are new in our development team that are joining us this month and that can help us justify land selection and we're taking a different approach on not constructing ourselves, but bidding out the construction cost. We've got a very, very exciting future. And as I said earlier, we're looking at following a very steady, predictable and reliable growth pattern. Regardless of any bumps in the road anywhere along the road, we look very, very good.
We've looked very good in the past, and I see no reason that the fundamentals will change for us to look equally as good if not better in the future.
Sheldon, I agree with you 100%. Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Your next question comes from Farley with UBS.
I hope my line is open this time.
Yes, you're open, Robin. You're open.
Great, great. Thanks. Wonder if you could just Did you
get our towel?
Yes, I know. I was wondering if you need it back, but I do have
a few. You need what?
I wanted to ask if
you could No, no, no. We got $20,000,000 but we will send you some eggs.
I wonder if you could put some of your comments about Singapore in context. Just looking at how your hold on rolling volume was above the normal range, Would you calculate that's about $295,000,000 or
so in EBITDA if you normalize the hold? Well, I want to give you something and I think we neglected to put in my prepared remarks. Our 200 day moving average, which really counts, is 2.83. Am I correct on that, Ken?
I see it.
With that, Dan, do you have that chart? Yes. We are we the ups and downs, the peaks and valleys of weekly or monthly of weekly and monthly performance is not really what it's all about. What it's really all about is what your long term moving average is in the percentage. I'm looking at it now.
Oops, I made a mistake. It's not 2 0.83, it's 2.93, okay? But on life to date, the average all the way through from the time we started, the 2.93 is a 200 day moving average and life to date is 2.83. Sorry, I got that a little confused. So you can make adjustments up or down for the quarter.
But for a a value investor in a long term holder like us, we're interested in where we're going long term. If we had an extraordinary number like 3.5 or 4.0 on the high end hold, of course, it would be cause to make the adjustments. But when you're looking at a 200 day moving average, square within the bracket that we need between 2.85% and 3%. That's the bracket that we need. I mean you can't pick it out to the oneone hundredth of 1%.
Yes.
I totally agree with your comments about the value bookings long term and that's why above 3%, if you're using your 2.93%, I was going to give you credit for 3%, but if you would use 2.93%, I thought the average would have been in the quarter. I don't know if that would put you in the $280,000,000 range in EBITDA. I'm just trying to think about what you think the normalized level is. And if you want to use $2,93,000,000 that's actually that's great.
That's the 200 day moving average.
And I wonder if you can also put some of your comments about January during the Q and A, sort of give an indication either maybe what rolling volumes were or whether January was above average as well just to put that EBITDA in context for us?
Frankly, I don't know. I just got the number. We get numbers on a daily basis and that was the number for the 31st. I did look at the details because I didn't anticipate blurring them out as I want to do.
That's helpful. And I totally agree about looking at long term and that's why I want to look at the quarter on a normalized basis. So great. Thank you. You're welcome.
Your next question comes from Cameron McKnight with Buckingham.
Sheldon,
if you could elaborate or comment on the initial positioning of Sites 56 relative to your other properties in Macau when you guys open the first phase at end of this year?
What do you mean by an actual position?
In terms of strategy, what market you'll
be looking to go after?
On the casino side or on the non gaming side? On the non gaming side, this is the first time that we're bringing it beside the Four Seasons, but it's only 3 60 rooms. Thank you. This is the first time we're going to have Shangri La Traders, Sheridan, first time we're going to be able to dig very deeply into an international branded international brands and their database and their customer base to come to our properties. Now we will have experienced the intercontinental depth with over 100,000,000 frequent user customers, whatever they call, reward program customers in Las Vegas here at The Venetian Palazzo.
So it's going to be very interesting. We don't know for sure, but we're very hopeful because in putting together the program that we need for the Intercontinental here in Vegas, the potential for that is extraordinary. We understand that in another location that InterContin has done this, they're providing 44% of the FIT for that hotel. I don't want to mention the name, we're not revenue. Total room revenue of 44%.
Well, that's tremendous. So our original my original vision to bring in all these very deep databases and customer lists of the international brands, I believe is going to work out. We are already lining up. We have about 40 private gaming rooms that we'll be lining up that we are lining up junket reps to go in there. And if we didn't say it today, I'll just repeat it.
We are relying less on premium direct customers and relying more upon the junket reps, as I've told them, because we thought that what Steve Jacobs had done was the wrong move. It was one of the reasons why he was terminated. We asked him not to do that and he did that. In any event, where our relationship with the junket reps is improving, we just brought on a top guy from one of our top competitors, whose relationships with the junket reps is what we've brought him on for. He's a specialist in that and we expect that to improve.
So as far as the 2 mass market casinos are concerned, we're opening 1 at a time. 1 will be open in 6 months later, the other one. But the rolling programs in the 40 private gaming rooms will be most of them, if not all of them, will be open from the outset. But it's Dharab, can you add any more to that? I think you said it well.
I do. Well, I said nothing, but I said it well.
You said it well. We've added I think we've added talent in the junket side. We've got a lot of work cut out for us. They have a lot of opportunity there to grow it. And I think we've done an extraordinary job, the mass side of the business, both mass volume table as well as slot.
Our upside is and the premium slot side. And that'll be the focal point as we go forward.
Okay. Great. Thank you.
By the way, these stadium style seating capacities on sick bowl and baccarat and roulette have not been in the past in much demand in Macao, but we put them in and now they're doing demand. When we first started, I might add, we first started, there was big argument within the management of this company slot growth because at that time they had English language and English characters in the slots. So if somebody wants to know how they're going to win, they had to learn how to read English. So when we just we had the slot they could read what how they're going to win, then it made quite a difference. And now the slot business in Macau was a very, very big business.
And growing. And growing.
Any further Any further questions?
Ladies and gentlemen, we have reached the allotted time for Q and A. Sir, is there any closing remarks?
Any closing remarks. Okay. Let me say thank you. And let me close by saying that we have proven over the last several years that while we see peaks and valleys in our business on a monthly or short term basis, we have enjoyed predictable growth trajectory. There is no reason to believe any fundamentals of our business are changing, so we have every expectation that this growth trajectory will continue.
We are proud of another record quarter and the completion of the most successful year in our company's history. But make no mistake about it, we will not rest on our laurels. We have the best assets in each of the markets in which we operate and we will work tirelessly to make sure each of them is maximizing its potential. At the same time, we will continue to aggressively pursue new opportunities, which will fill our development pipeline and help us maintain our position as the pacesetter for growth in our