Okay, while we get started, we may see a few more drift in.
You call.
Welcome. Good morning, everybody. Thanks for joining us today. Those that don't know me, I'm Richard Clarke. I'm the Global Hotels and Leisure Analyst here at Bernstein. I'm delighted to be joined for the 11:00 A.M. slot by Robert Goldstein, Chairman and CEO of Las Vegas Sands. Before we get started, small amount of admin. If you, if you've got any questions you'd like to ask, we're using the Pigeonhole app. You should be able to get a link through your name match, and I'll try and wing those into the conversation as and when appropriate. So Robert, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you. Nice to be here.
You know, maybe obviously, we hosted you here last year, and maybe a good place to start would be just, you know, what's top of your mind as Chairman and CEO of LVS today? What are the key topics, and we'll delve into some of the details on those afterwards.
Not much has changed. We continue our business both in Macao and Singapore. I guess the huge growth in Singapore has been top of mind for us for quite a while, and Macao, the reemergence in Macao as the premier gaming market in the world, our position there. But I think right now, as we think about our businesses, our. The Singapore business is somewhat astounding. We've seen that market grow from basically a 10-year trajectory till 2019. It was kind of flat, and all of a sudden, it's astounding the growth in Singapore. It's based on the current numbers, the annualized Q1, running like $6.5 billion-$7 billion of GGR. So that market is taking off in a way which we are thrilled to be part of and want to be continuing to invest in Singapore.
It's just an amazing growth trajectory from a, what had been a market that were about $1.5 billion-$1.6 billion. We had a $600 million quarter in Q1, which is pretty astounding for any building. But, I think you also saw the strong results out of the, our competitor, Genting. But Singapore's escalation is a market that could be someday as much as a $10 billion market. It's pretty astounding. It's happening quickly, and the underlying demand is astounding.
Great, and maybe, you know, even though we're now in 2024, we probably need to bring up the COVID word, maybe hopefully for one last year. Where are we in terms of sort of the visitation recovery into Macao and Singapore in terms of numbers? And what today, if anything, is holding back that recovery?
Well, I think Singapore is pretty much back where it was. It's not quite 100%, but very, very candidly, it's the right visitor profile. What makes Singapore such a compelling place is the right people in terms of affluence, the right types of demand visitors are coming. So I think Singapore, again, the GGRs and the ADRs and the business of Singapore is booming. Is it 100% back in terms of pre-COVID? I don't believe it is, it's probably in the 90s, but what's more important in Singapore is the visitor profile is so astounding. And Macao continues to... I mean, the GGR escalation from a dead stop in 2023, a mere 18 months ago, zero COVID was rooting to roost. And, very honestly, I didn't know where Macao would get to.
In 2023, it went from, you know, some people said $16 billion, $18 billion. I think we're all kind of gratified to see it approaching $30 billion. Hopefully, May's numbers coming out in Macao will be strong. But to me, Macao is just simply a recovery story based on GGR, and I think the most recent government support for the IVS scheme is also hugely positive for LVS and the market. Rarely have we seen that kind of support for Macao and for the IVS. So I think you're gonna see Macao continue to accelerate. Does it go to $30 billion or $32 billion this near term? I believe it does. Does it eventually reach $40 billion? I believe it does. It's a market that is gonna continue to grow, despite the economic issues that are prevalent today in China.
Macao's proven to be very resilient, and the growth is there in all segments. Obviously, we'd like to see more recovery in the base mass. It would be strong for LVS, but also for the market to see more base mass business. The premium mass has led to recovery. That's evident from the numbers and the segmentation. But I think both these markets have come a long way from... Well, Singapore has blown way past pre-COVID numbers, as much as 30%, 40%, 50% higher GGR. So Singapore is in complete success mode, and Macao, I think, is on the heels of that. So it's a question of how soon Macao. It's a more, it's a story of not today, it's a story of tomorrow, how fast the escalation of GGRs can get to we recover back to 36% and beyond.
But to me, Macao is a sure thing. It's not a question of if it'll recover, it's a question of when.
So the variation you've seen between Singapore and Macao, do you get a sense the consumers are choosing or favoring going to Singapore over Macao, or is it a different consumer?
No, I don't. It's not a question of Macao versus Singapore. These are the two dominant markets for what we do for as a gaming hotel business. In my opinion, Singapore and Macao are heads and tails above the rest. They don't compete necessarily. They're very different audiences, yet they share, they do share our customers. But Singapore, our business there is misunderstood. It is essentially a very high-end customer, and so we've, what people don't realize that our business, we're shrinking key count, because we believe the consumer wants a very high-end suite product, which we've. If you haven't seen our new product in Singapore, it's pretty extraordinary. I was there a couple of weeks ago, it's extraordinary. So we're building better suites, better accommodations, but we are increasing our gaming tables.
By next year, we'll have 100 additional premium gaming tables on the floor in Singapore. So imagine these tables winning $20,000-$30,000 a day, what the impact will be on our business. Singapore is a much smaller market because you don't have the amount of hotel rooms, and obviously, it's just us and Genting in the gaming hotel space. So you can't compete. It's much more, in Singapore, much more premium mass-driven, and of course, there's never been junkets in Singapore, so, you know, it's, it's one big premium mass house... but you think about Singapore, it's a very affluent, high-end visitor. Macao is much more massified. When you have that many people coming, hopefully we'll get back to the pre-COVID numbers shortly, but it's millions and millions of people. It's a much larger, market segmentation in Macao than Singapore.
Maybe dialing in on the, you know, you mentioned some of the kind of consumer issues in, in China. I mean, how much does that weigh on you? If you look at your kind of customer profile, are you seeing some of your classic customers into both Macao maybe and Singapore, you know, being squeezed by some of the, the consumer pressures we're hearing about in China?
I don't know the exact answer. Obviously, in any macroeconomy, when it's softer, and right now, China is going through some issues with real estate, et cetera, clearly, it impacts consumers' mindset. It's that way in the U.S., it's that way in the world. It's certainly not a positive. I'd love to see China recover and get back to a stronger position, be beneficial to Macao and to Singapore. But like in every market, there's people of a socioeconomic level that can handle the downside, and you're seeing that in these astounding numbers. I believe Macao and Singapore cumulatively will be about $45 billion-$50 billion of GGR by the end of this decade. They're both gonna keep growing. Just Singapore is just on a huge trajectory, Macao more measured.
But I think once the recovery happens in China, I believe it will, economically, obviously, business will increase in all segments in Macao. No one likes to see a soft economy in any place you're operating a business, and that's what's happening right now. China is going through a difficult time right now.
And so maybe the addition to that is to think about widening the international mix. You know, is there a way you can leverage a stronger dollar to get more U.S. travelers into these markets? Are there other regional markets that could be attractive, or are you still very dependent on that Chinese?
No, it's not China. You're Asian dependent, and China plays a part in that, but you're Asian dependent. You're dependent on Japan and Thailand, Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia, as well as China. I don't think the U.S. will ever play an important role in the business of what we do in Asia. I still think it's gonna be dependent on the region. And the region overall is fine. There's just this softness right now until China, the economy resurrects. But no, I don't think we can ever assume there will be a lot of gamblers or people coming from the U.S. to visit us in Macao or Singapore.
Fair enough. So maybe if we sort of dial in on competition, I mean, how intense are you finding the competition in your markets? I think in Singapore, you're really only competing with one-
Yeah, Genting. Yeah.
In Macao, it's a wider set.
Yep.
How, in a market maybe where you haven't seen a full recovery, are you seeing that sort of competitive forces intensify, and how are you competing relative to your competitors?
Well, my crew, competition is healthy, good competition. We welcome it, we encourage it, and we're very happy to see our competitors do well, especially with Genting's very strong Q1 results. But in Macao, it's a more competitive market by virtue of more licenses. But I think in the end, we're all competing for one thing, which is more gross gaming revenue. We all participate well, and that happens. So, so I think competition is... We have a different approach at LVS. We build the best buildings at the most scale, and I think what, when Londoner opens up, it's a new day in Q1 of 2025. Once Londoner opens up, I believe we'll have the number one and two assets by far in that market. I believe both Londoner and Venetian will exceed $1+ billion, if not more.
So I think competitively, we've built very, very strong products that have diverse kicks into retail, entertainment, food and beverage, great marketing. So in the end, product always wins. LVS bets on product, out of product. We've invested heavily in Macao, heavily in Singapore, and the results will be, I think we have growth in both markets. I believe both our businesses can grow considerably. Macao, we believe, is gonna go to $3 billion and mentioned $3.5 billion. We've done the same thing in Singapore. There's no end to the growth in the next five years in both these markets. So we invest heavily, we invest properly with great assets, and when you go see our products, go see The Londoner or go see MBS, I think you'll realize why we'll be a dominant player in both markets for years to come.
You sort of answered this question just then, but maybe just to expand a bit further. So your sort of point of differentiation would be, you would say, the quality of the product, and by that, do you mean the accommodation product, or is there-
Every aspect.
Wider product?
No, no, it's not just the... It's not just Singapore, a couple weeks ago, I was astounded by what has the team's achieved there. The room product is beyond compare. I don't care where you go, what city, Paris, London, New York, maybe not New York. You got great hotels everywhere, and I think if you look at what's happened in MBS, it's a cut above the room product itself. However, beyond the room product, the retail product, the food and beverage product, the entertainment offerings, I mean, in Singapore and Macao, we work very hard to create a lifestyle experience. It's not just about coming to gamble, it's about creating a lifestyle people wanna be part of our ecosystem.
It reflects well when you see how people gravitate to LVS product, because you can sleep in our hotels, eat in our hotels, the retail product is extraordinary, the entertainment piece, the spa piece, it all works in tandem. It just isn't about a good room. Our, our rooms are best in class, but the rest of product is compelling as well.
Maybe just talking about, I mean, I'm, you know, a Hotel Analyst for a decade-
I'm sorry.
Just thinking about what's resonating today, and I guess kind of, you maybe the way you tell me if this is too simplistic.
Yeah
... I kind of see the three styles of accommodation you put in. You've kind of got the pure luxury, which you talked about in-
Yeah
... Singapore. You've got, maybe more themed hotels, maybe you disagree with that, but like the Venetian and London type products.
They're themed, there's no arguing that.
And there are sort of the branded products you've used in the past, where you work with Four Seasons-
Right
... et cetera. What, what's resonating today? What do you see as the most compelling of those three approaches?
... But they all have different value propositions. You referenced, I mean, MBS is, if you think about MBS, it's almost like the epitome of luxury at all levels. It just. It's not a brand. We brand it, I mean, they say it's our brand. But if you walk that hotel, if you're in the lobby or if you're in the retail, if you're in the spa, if you're at the pool deck on the top, in the casino, these are products that they cost billions to build. They reflect it. But what hotel, what casino in the world can aspire to make $200 billion in a single year? No one. That's the hotel that can do it. It's. There's no place like MBS, and it plays a very high level. It doesn't play to a mass audience.
It's more of a probably affluent segment. Our branded hotels, as you alluded to them, are branded hotels. There's no avoiding the appeal, though, of the Venetian in Macao has been proven. We built the hotel in 2007, and at the opening, someone I won't name, his name, told me it's a huge white elephant. It will never pay its debt back. So it was built for $2.7 billion. I think it's made probably $20 billion leave with us since then. So probably a good investment. But it appealed to all, a broad segment of the Chinese audience because the execution of the Venetian was top tier, albeit a themed hotel, which is somewhat people think as a lower level.
That hotel has been extraordinary in terms of its appeal, and it's very, you could call it, you know, that's a yesterday's story, but in fact, today, the Venetian is still by far the number one hotel earning power in Macao. The Londoner is just simply takes that same, you know, branded theming type of thing to a new level. Now, that's out of vogue right now in Las Vegas, so we won't be building, you know, they're not building these type of hotels, but actually, The Londoner is so well done. I think when you come to go see it, you'll be shocked how much you'll like it and gravitate to its appeal. Very proud of those two hotels, very proud of the Four Seasons, but our Four Seasons is different than the Four Seasons you might see somewhere else.
These are very, very expensive structures that we've invested heavily in. To make them, I think, the Four Seasons Macao, it is not the best Four Seasons in the world. I like to see the number two product because it's extraordinary in every way. The room appointments, the quality of the hotel is, you know, the retail. So on all three different levels, be it our own branded MBS, be it, as you have themed hotels, you call it, be it Londoner, Venetian, Parisian, or be it a third person's product, third party product, like Four Seasons, we've taken the level up to a level that is unprecedented. Issy Sharp came to the opening of the Four Seasons. He, he made a very funny comment. He said, "We can afford it.
We build these all over the place like this." But it's not, it's not sensible, unless you're in a gaming hotel environment, to do that. So I think if you visit the Four Seasons in Macao, you'd be taken aback by how good it is. It's, it's not a typical Four Seasons.
What about the gaming itself? I mean, is there any innovation happening within-
Oh, yeah.
Casino gaming and, you know, what's driving the incremental customer in, I mean-
Well, the hot ticket today, the hot discussion revolves around the smart tables. You know, we work with Angel Eye, and others work with other people in that space, and they're terrifically advanced products that I think enable us to do a better job of policing the game for both the customer and our own benefit. They also help us market better. They make us more aware. It turns the table game into a sort of slot machine, in a way. It takes out the human element in terms of the customer degraded. It makes it very mechanical and very efficient, and it works very well. The future of gambling, I think, is tied to smart tables. And there's a little confusion that smart tables somehow do things that they don't really do.
They simply enable the operator to do better things with the marketing, with the game protection, you know, with how they view the customer, enables the customer to have a better experience. But smart tables, I think, are going to revolutionize gaming. We'll be fully in the smart table business, both in Macao and Singapore. That's our future. We believe in it. Very positive development for the industry.
Okay. And can we mention the word AI then, in that respect?
Sure. Fancy life.
To play in-
AI definitely has a role in that idea. It all works in tandem. With our system, we're trying to incorporate all the elements to make it the most effective anything that's happening today with Angel Eye. So we're very happy about the product and where it's going.
Okay, fantastic. Maybe I'll just include one of the questions we got from the audience here. We've seen in Vegas, obviously not your market-
Right.
But a deal with MGM and Marriott to put a bunch of the MGM hotels under Marriott-
Yeah
Sort of soft brands.
Mm-hmm.
And, speaking to Marriott, they say they're cutting the online travel agent distribution quite heavily by doing that. Is this kind of deal of interest to you? Is the market very different? Are you very direct in your distribution?
We are.
Yeah.
It doesn't work for us in terms of our hotel demand in Singapore doesn't necessitate that type of arrangement. And even in Macao, we've moved going to a direct reservation system. But keep in mind, when you have the kind of MGM to different places in Las Vegas, many more keys, many more levels. So our Macao offering, we run huge occupancy without third-party involvement. We did that for years. We're moving away to a different model.
Okay, and I assume also the other difference would be that your ratio of kind of non-accommodation-
Correct.
Is quite a lot lower
Yes.
And more driven by the-
Our biggest problem in our jurisdictions is finding enough rooms to take care of the customers because the demand is huge. And, I think for MGM, that works well. I thought that... We did that years ago with, as well in Las Vegas, but today, that doesn't fit our agenda.
Okay, makes sense.
Yeah.
In terms of sort of looking ahead for opportunities, I mean, are there opportunities to add more properties in Singapore? Is there still white space?
Well, we're in the midst of finalizing a deal with the government to add another property, and we can't talk about it because it's not finalized, but we certainly have plans to build a very special new building in Singapore because that's part of our growth trajectory. Our business is organic in both of our markets, be it Singapore, Macao. We believe our company can achieve, you know, we're currently about $48 million EBITDA. Our goal is to get to $6 billion in one or two jurisdictions, and I think that's very doable. So, organic growth inside LVS is prevalent. Of course, we're looking at all the usual suspects here in New York.
We're looking at Texas, looking at Thailand, but it's very hard for us to find the right opportunity to invest capital and get the kind of returns and the kind of environment we want to be in. It's not easy to do. It sounds easy, but it's quite difficult.
But I mean, what makes Macao and Singapore so unique? Why are those markets for you?
First of all, they're in Asia-
Yeah.
Which is a good thing. That's a market that's underserved for gaming hotel capacity. Secondly, they're well-run markets. Both those, both those markets are adjudicated by government bodies, do a good job, Singapore and Macao, a very clean regulatory environment there, and the government involvement there. So that's hard to find. There's a lot of places in Asia we wouldn't feel comfortable going to. In the U.S., it's more challenging because the U.S. has had a huge gaming growth in the last 40 years. When I started this business, it was Nevada and New Jersey. Today, it's every corner there's a casino hotel. So to invest the kind of capital we invest and be protected to get the returns we want, it's very difficult to see a... There's very few markets left in the U.S. that fit that bill.
But you say there could be some?
Sure. I mean, New York is a possibility, Texas is a possibility, but it gets pretty thin after that. In California, I don't think it's a possibility, I don't think. Obviously, Florida is an Indian run state as far as gaming, so I don't see us being in other places, but it's too saturated in most jurisdictions. And honestly, the tax rates are also make it very difficult to invest capital. So very few opportunities left for companies of our scale and size inside the U.S.
What about Nevada? Would you ever think-
Nevada is always a possibility. I mean, obviously, it's a place we've operated for years successfully, do well there, and we'd always consider Nevada at the right juncture. But I think our organic growth, our focus, our capital plan right now is to stay very focused on growing our businesses in Asia because they're so damn compelling. I mean, Singapore is just compelling as hell, and I think Macao, people don't give it credit for. You know, we think about 18 months ago, zero COVID, we had zero revenue. 18 months ago, there was no revenue, not profit, revenue in Macao. Here we are 18 months later, and people will say, "Oh, it's gonna get back to $20 billion, $18 billion." You read the analysts from a year ago, the big thought was, can it get to $18 billion?
Here we are, brushing up against $30 billion, and there's no question in my mind it goes to $35 billion. It goes to $40 billion. If you think beyond your nose, the big picture, Macao is gonna be a huge market for years to come, and this idea that junkets went away is simply wrong. Junkets are not there, but what is happening is the customers gravitate to different ecosystems, different channels of capital, and so the premium mass business is soaring in Asia. What hasn't happened for us in Macao is the resurgence fully back of the base mass, which for a company of our scale and size, is pivotal to our success. We need more base mass. The latest IVS scheme is very encouraging, but that opens the door to more visitation for more base mass customers.
The same way the relaxation of visa policy into Singapore was hugely powerful for Singapore. I mean, that's a powerful driver of business in Singapore, that the Chinese government said visa is not required. It's a very positive thing for us, and we hope that continues in Macao. But growth for us, we believe we've got a 20% growth right now on our two existing markets without building in the U.S. or somewhere new in Asia. We think we go to $6 billion in just these two markets.
Okay, fair enough. And then, Singapore, you said you're thinking of adding a second property. It sounds like you can't say very much, but-
Well, we-
Is it something of the same scale as India?
No, it won't be as many rooms, but it will be, I think, a very, very compelling product. We've been negotiating with government for quite a while. We've got waylaid by COVID, and, but I think we'll announce something later this year once we finalize what we're doing. And I think it'll be quite a growth story for Singapore. And, working with Singapore, you know, the government's made great decisions about how to build and how to develop. I think this product reflects their insight and also the underlying market demand in Singapore is so damn good. If you think about Singapore being, again, a sleepy $4 billion GGR market to now go to $5 billion, $6 billion, $7 billion, I don't think there's any question Singapore is a $10 billion market by decade end.
Genting's investment, as well as ours, obviously, are predicated on those kind of numbers happening. But Singapore is going through a growth spurt that we... You know, people said, "Can you get back to COVID?" We're $500 million above COVID levels today in EBITDA. Our slot machine business is up 45%. Our non-rolling table is up 55%. It's a, it's a, you know, a moon shot, and all of a sudden, Singapore has become a hugely important market to anybody, and it's also a, a moat market. You can't get in. So absolutely, we're investing again in Singapore once we finalize with the government.
It's a closed market. It would always be just a two-horse race in Singapore?
You can never say never. Never is a long time.
Yeah.
But I don't think today there's any concern about third license.
Okay.
Yeah.
All right. And then you mentioned maybe potentially looking at the other areas in Asia.
Sure.
Obviously, again, you've talked about visas, but we've seen other-
Yes
things in that with places like Thailand. Are those the kind of markets you're looking at, where, you know, Chinese travelers can travel?
Sure. So we looked in Thailand, we spent time there. We're looking at. We spent time in Japan, that didn't work out for us. and we looked at Korea. But clearly, you'd like to be in other jurisdictions if the circumstances are right in Asia. And Thailand is the most talked about lead jurisdiction in the market today in Asia, and certainly, we'll see where the government goes with it.
Is there an existing gaming business there, or would you be kicking it off?
Legal gambling is not available in Thailand today. There's some underground, probably some things I don't need to talk about.
No doubt.
Legal casinos, you know, you can visit, they're non-existent, no.
Okay, great.
Yeah.
Okay, so and what about, I mean, other areas, Europe, obviously-
Mm
some famous casinos in Europe, but not quite at the same scale you would be.
I don't think Europe makes sense for us. It's, it's a different kind of business. It, it doesn't... Our kind of investment wouldn't be, it wouldn't make sense for us to be in Europe.
Okay.
Nice place to visit, but not necessarily for what we do. Yeah.
Other aspects of gaming, could you ever see a world where you went online?
We looked at a lot of things from the digital perspective. I think it's interesting, and it's very challenging on all levels to make it make sense. I mean, unfortunately, we missed the online sports thing because it's just very challenging to making money thus far. Online gambling is undeniably going to be an important part of our business in the future, and again, we've never say never. We looked at some things in digital space, and we're still looking at things.
Maybe just moving on to another topic, I guess, you know, constantly in the news, we hear about the U.S.-China relations.
How are they?
Mixed, I think is probably the best way to put it.
Yeah
- up and down. I mean, does it, you're a U.S.-listed company, you're, you know-
Mm
... you're competing in, certainly in Greater China.
Mm.
How much is that relationship important to your business?
I think what's sad for me as an American citizen who does business in Asia is to see this never-ending, you know, headbutting between these two countries, because clearly, they're the most important countries in the world today, and they need to figure out a relationship that works for both them and the rest of the world. I'm hopeful that we'll see post-election a little less aggressiveness and a little more cooperation, because we all need it. The fact is that China and the U.S. have to figure out how to work together. It doesn't help us to have that obviously. It doesn't help. I think it doesn't help this country or nor China to have headbutting. What's more helpful is to figure out a way to work together for a better economy and the right trade perspectives.
But beyond my pay grade, that'll happen when it happens. But clearly, we don't feel good about seeing this never-ending, divisive, and very aggressive rhetoric coming out of this area. It's painful because I think it was a very good relationship with China for a long time. Hopefully, they find a better path forward.
But in terms of sort of practicalities for your business, are you, are you seen as a local company? There's no preferential treatment given to-
I don't believe, though, we're seen as local, but we're not seen as... I don't think we're also hurt by the fact that we're a U.S.-based company. I think we've-- If anything, if you look at our track record in both Singapore and Macao, we've been the market leader in both, and we've been investing, making decisions that, I mean, I think it's legendary what Sheldon did. For those of you who don't remember it, he was the guy that authored the Cotai Strip. I mean, Sheldon, you know, what, 15 years ago or so, pointed to Cotai and says, "Let's build there." And everybody, even, even the local, Macao authorities, the Macanese were skeptical, and that's a nice word. Our other, our other competitors didn't believe in it. We built the nation there in 2007. That was a brilliant move.
It took Macao from a little... You know, if you think about a casino hotel environment, if you think of Manhattan, sort of like what Macao was, very concentrated, highly organized. We moved out to, it's called the, the New Jersey or Connecticut, built this, this freestanding building. It ushered in a, a whole new way perspective that today is a $50 billion-$60 billion investment in Macao. I think Sheldon's thinking made the Chinese stand up and realize, this guy's a real entrepreneur with real vision. It was a brilliant move, maybe the most brilliant single move in the history of, of the gaming industry. It was an incredible call that one man in, was able to see something in Cotai.
I think that has ingratiated us to the Chinese government and to Macao, Macanese government, that we're a legendary investor that spent not $1 billion or $2 billion, but $15 billion, $16 billion, $17 billion creating the Macao of today, which is a resort Macao, not gaming-centric, it's resort-centric. Our competitors followed. I think we have a great relationship with the government because of that incredible foresight by Sheldon. Singapore, again, we went to Singapore. Lee Kuan Yew was an amazing leader, and I think his vision for Singapore was justified in part by Sheldon. They had a great relationship. We put $6 billion into the ground there and built this place, which today is an architectural icon.
So I think we're seen as a U.S. company, but very, very strong local ties, and we're very community-oriented, both in Macao and Singapore. And that enabled LVS to be seen favorably by both governments. I don't think there's any question about our longevity in Macao is because anchored in Sheldon's visionary, outlook. He was far beyond the competitors there. When you look at MBS today, and you see a picture of Singapore, usually a picture of our building. It's very much seen as part of Singapore landscape. And very frankly, again, Sheldon put the big convention space there, and if you talk to people who were in Singapore at the time, there was fear that the whole lodging market would be hurt by the evolution of MBS. In fact, just the opposite.
We lifted ADRs, and today, we look at what's happening in Singapore. It's the home of Taylor Swift, entertainment, Bruno Mars, conventions. That market has gone from what, let's face it, wasn't considered a highly desirable place to visit 15, 18 years ago. Today, people can't wait to get to Singapore. And the whole lodging market, hospitality market, has been lifted by, I think, what we did there and, and Genting as well. So we're very proud of our contributions from a, not just economic, but we lifted both Macao and Singapore to a better place, I believe, and that's helped us locally do well. We didn't fear the licensing process in Macao. We felt very comfortable based on our track record.
So you sort of mentioned the convention center in Singapore and, you know, Macao is a resort business, not a gaming business anymore.
Right.
I mean, how much of... Is this a transition you're seeing internally? You're trying to push a sort of non-gaming side to the industry. How big can that get?
Well, it's not either/or, it works in tandem.
Yeah.
If you think about gaming, non-gaming, I mean, in the old days, Las Vegas, you know, the casino operators, when I first went there, they were very casino-centric. Well, it's pretty funny to watch Las Vegas today, because we got to Las Vegas 30 years ago, and I, I start with Sheldon and a couple other people, it was gaming-centric. When you mentioned the idea of a convention center or a freestanding restaurant outside your control, people or a retail mall, people were. It was an astounding idea. I got more calls. We built a large, 800 sq ft hotel room. People were just they couldn't believe it. "You're crazy." People come here to gamble. So we had a lecture one time with somebody I won't name.
He pounded the table and said, "This is all about gaming. Forget the rooms, forget the retail, forget the food. It's gambling." Today, conversely, 30 years later, it's all about non-gambling. What's lifted Las Vegas is, it's become the city of football and basketball, not basketball, hockey, entertainment, F1. Vegas has gone to a place you couldn't imagine 30 years ago. What drove it? It sure wasn't gambling. It was non-gambling. The same is true in Macao. Macao has become the home of retail, incredible dining, incredible spas. The activities in Macao pay for every traveler, and Singapore, I think, speaks to that as well. Being gaming-centric is a ticket to nowhere. The ticket to somewhere is to build attractions, lifestyle, amenities that people wanna visit, and that's why these places are overrun with customers.
You look at Atlantic City, it remained a gaming-centric destination, and today, it's competes with other gaming-centric destinations, so there's no advantage. We don't believe in that. We believe in building buildings that are hospitality driven, offer a plethora of opportunities to do different things, and that's what drives visitation. That's why we've been very keen to invest in places that understand and respect that. You wanna build a riverboat or you wanna build a spa tower, there's better people than us to build it for you. That's not our business.
One of the things you mentioned earlier was you're actually reducing room count-
Mm-hmm
... in Singapore.
Singapore, yep.
We've heard this from some other luxury hotels around the world-
Yeah
... that this is becoming a trend, that they're having to sort of retrofit more-
Mm, mm.
- bigger and better suites in there. I mean, is this, is this a good payback? Because sometimes you mention it's quite difficult-
No, it's not good.
- to, to-
No, it's not good, it's spectacular. It's not good, it's spectacular. When you take a small room, and we're doing this right now in Macao, at the Londoner, we had little, you know, square, small rooms, unimpressive. But when you combine two or three and make it a proper suite with the proper amenities, your numbers soar in both the casino and if you want ADR. People will pay more for better product, especially Singapore is a very small market in terms of... It doesn't have a lot of, you know, popular scale. People will pay up for it. In every market we've worked in, when you build a better product and better room, the lodging business, again, ties into the gaming business. People want the entire experience, whether gaming, entertainment, retail, food and beverage, they want the best of the best.
And that experience for us in both, you'll see it in London next year, it's gonna shock people. The Londoner, I believe, performs that market coupled with the Venetian. So, the days of us building small hotel rooms and are over. We build quality in terms of scale and size. I hope people get a chance to visit what we're doing at Londoner or we're doing at Four Seasons or we did at the MBS in Singapore. That is our approach, and the returns are wonderful.
Is this a substantial capital project to kind of do these improvements?
Damn right! It's expensive.
Yeah.
Yes. It is not cheap, but it's... Again, if Singapore can make, I believe we, we did $600 million in one quarter, that's a good year for most hotel casinos. In fact, it may be a good two years for many. But the, the fact is, if you make $2.5 billion and eventually go to $3 billion in Singapore, I believe we will this decade, once we open the year, we can get there. And if you do it in Macao, where you can get to 3, $3.5 billion, $4 billion, yeah, it's money well spent. The returns are there. We're not playing for, for... We're playing for very upscale visitors of a certain quality and want that experience, and that's those are built for, who they're built for.
Maybe just a question on generational shifts.
Yeah.
You know, I guess, you know, is generational shift a headwind to you, or is it a tailwind to you, with people looking to do more sort of experiential travel? How are you seeing the sort of next generation, Gen Z, if you like, sort of, you know, adapting to the LVS model?
Yeah, if you spend time in our buildings, you'll find it, it's not of consequence because it's packed with people in their thirties and forties, gambling and experiencing our business. I can't speak to America, but in Asia, it's very prevalent to see young families coming to our buildings and do everything from shop to gamble, to eat. And it's very much, you know, in vogue to visit our buildings to younger people. But the days of being old and people smoking cigarettes and... That's gone. It's a much younger audience that appreciates all the new ones that we've done in the building. If anything, they're younger and more sophisticated than ever. So we're seeing. I can't speak to American lodging world, but in our world, in Macao and Singapore, it's a very young, affluent audience, no question.
But do they act differently? You know, are they... Do you need to get Taylor Swift in town? Do you need to add up the retail or-
No, you need everything. You need Taylor Swift or whoever it is that week. We just came back from Hamilton in our theater over there, you know, the Broadway show, Hamilton. And it's always hilarious, that it's packed every night. When you think about that, the American history story with rap. And somehow I didn't think that might translate, but I was wrong. It's packed every night. And so my point is, whether it's Taylor Swift one week, or Bruno Mars, or Hamilton, or Maroon 5, whoever it is, the Asian acts, the fact is, entertainment's a very important part of the mix. We're proposing to build a very big part of it into our new building in Singapore.
So you can never underestimate the power and impact of be it entertainment, be it the best retail, the best food and beverage. We're building lifestyle machines that are catered to a certain audience of affluence and desirability, and the underlying demand and need for that product is powerful.
Maybe sort of a wider comment on ESG then, I guess, for better or worse, Las Vegas Sands probably finds itself the wrong side of the ESG equation sometimes. Do you think that's fair? Do you think that there's more you could do to persuade kind of ESG-led investors to invest in your business, or does it not something you spend any time worrying about?
No, no, we do, we look at everything. Sure, we consider ESG. We try our best to do what we can do in the confines of our thought process. I mean, sometimes you can't please everybody, and you can't get to 100%, but we certainly do pay attention. We're not disrespectful about it, but it may not fit our profile of the board. You can't be 100% in ESG world these days. You can't. But we do our best to be as stable as possible. Yeah.
Okay, makes sense. Let me move on to capital allocation. The dual listing structure, I mean-
Mm.
How crucial is it that you have both those listings, you know, I guess now?
It's hard to say.
You're all Asia focused.
Yeah.
You know, how does that--does that structure stay?
Yes, it stays currently as it is, both in Hong Kong and the U.S., because we feel an obligation to be in the Hong Kong listing as do most of our competitors. Yes. Is it the most desirable thing? Probably not, but that's the world we live in, so it will remain a dual listed company both in New York and in Hong Kong. Yes.
And then capital allocation across that, like, you know, if you're deciding to buy back stock, do you buy back your own stock, or do you buy some more of the-
Buy both.
Hong Kong?
Yeah, we do it all. Last time we... We're buying in both places. You saw our, our report last quarter, and we'll continue to be look in both markets, whatever is more desirable from our capital allocation perspective. We bought stock in the U.S., we bought stock in Hong Kong last quarter, and that's public knowledge. So, these are hard decisions because we have, we are a cash flow, very strong cash flow post-pandemic, and a lot of optionality. We have a dividend program, we have a buyback program, we have capital. It's very important to spend our money intelligently, but the most important thing is to earn more, get more money, more diversification, and do more things with it. And that's our real goal, is to keep growing our EBITDA, which I think you'll see happen aggressively in 2025.
Last time you were here, there was some talk about, you know, limited transportation maybe into the Macao area.
Mm.
Is that back? Is that still a restriction to your business?
It's not completely back, but it's growing every day. And again, the new IVS scheme, the bus thing, it's getting better every day, and what's happened in Macao. It certainly has been competitive to our growth over there, and the base mass, the return of base mass. So it's not 100% back to pre-2019 or, or 2019 levels, pre-COVID, but it certainly is improving daily.
And in terms of labor, is that
Labor is always challenging. We have plenty of people, but labor is always challenging in Macao because of the nature of the market. But we're fine. We're fully staffed, lots of employees, and not an issue right now at all. Same in Singapore.
Is that... You able to hire locally or?
We did both. We mostly hire locally, yes. The focus is on Macanese.
And then one question we've got is just how much is the health of the Macao economy tied to the health of the Hong Kong economy, or are you... Proximity-wise, they're quite close, but-
I don't know the answer. I think, I think most is dependent on the health of the China economy more than, you know, because Hong Kong's got 7 million-8 million people. It clearly, the most important thing is the strength of China itself, mainland China, more than Macao versus Singapore.
And the IVS scheme you mentioned-
Mm.
Maybe just a bit of detail about how you could help, how that could assist with.
Well, it just opens the channels to more visitation. It just, it makes the visa process less daunting for the mainland customer to get to Macao, the same way they can freely go into Singapore. Just it lubricates the process of visitation. It's hugely positive for us and, and for everyone in those markets. So you saw the power of it already in Singapore. It's caused a lot more visitation to Singapore, and I think that'll happen this summer. I'm hoping to see the numbers in May, Macao GGR, but I think you'll see a strong summer visitation as a result of enhanced IVS scheme.
How, how are you kind of performing peak versus, versus off-peak?
Well-
You sort of seeing-
As a company, we're actually 95% of the EBITDA in 2019. But Macao is down probably $500 million, Singapore is up $500 million-$600 million. So we used to do $1.5 billion-$1.6 billion in Macao, we're now $2+ billion. Singapore, we're actually, Macao, we're doing about $2.5 billion, basically in the first two quarters, and we used to do $3 billion-$3.1 billion. So in essence, we're basically about where we were. But again, I think what people don't appreciate is just the growth in both these markets is gonna be massive. The balance this decade, I think you're seeing proper growth in both Singapore and Macao. And again, we've invested heavily to ensure our piece of the pie. So I feel good about it. Very good about it.
Bring about the last 50 seconds or so.
Oh, no.
Any final words before we, we wrap up around that?
No, it's very... I enjoyed it. It was very good, and I think very, far-reaching. Yeah.
Great.
That's my side. Thank you. Thank you for your time.
Thank you. Thanks, everybody.