Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Sands second quarter 2022 earnings conference call. At this time, all participants have been placed on listen-only mode. We will open the floor for your questions and comments following the presentation. It is now my pleasure to turn the floor over to Mr. Daniel Briggs, Senior Vice President of Investor Relations at Sands. Sir, the floor is yours.
Thank you. Joining the call today are Rob Goldstein, our Chairman and Chief Executive Officer; Patrick Dumont, our President and Chief Operating Officer; Dr. Wilfred Wong, President of Sands China; and Grant Chum, Chief Operating Officer of Sands China. Today's conference call will contain forward-looking statements that we are making under the safe harbor provision of federal securities laws. The company's actual results could differ materially from the anticipated results in those forward-looking statements. In addition, we may discuss non-GAAP measures. A definition and a reconciliation of each of these measures to the most comparable GAAP financial measures is included in the press release. We have posted supplementary earnings slides on our Investor Relations website. We may refer to those slides during the Q&A portion of the call.
Finally, for those who would like to participate in the Q&A session, we ask that you please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up, so we might allow everyone with interest the opportunity to participate. Please note that this presentation is being recorded. With that, I'll turn the call over to Rob.
Thank you, Dan, and thank you for joining our call today. A few brief comments, then we'll move to Q&A. The recovery in Singapore at MBS accelerated during the quarter with property EBITDA reaching $319 million. The relaxation of pandemic-related restrictions in Singapore and many of its source markets has enabled this encouraging improvement in the financial performance at MBS. We expect a more robust recovery over time as additional airlift in Singapore comes online and further relaxation measures in the region are implemented. Our conviction in the long-term opportunity in Singapore market remains steadfast. Our one U.S. billion dollar capital investment is underway at Marina Bay Sands, has introduced exceptional new suite product and premium segment-focused amenities to the resort.
More offerings will be added throughout the remainder of 2022 and 2023, and this will enhance the property's appeal to premium customers seeking the highest level travel experiences. In addition, we look forward to substantially increasing our investment in the Singapore market as we execute our expansion plans at Marina Bay Sands in the years ahead. Singapore remains an outstanding market for additional investment. Let's turn to Macao. The operating environment there remains very difficult. In periods when the restrictions have been lifted, the customer demand and spending in Macao have proven resilient at the premium mass level from both a gaming and a retail perspective. As the market eventually recovers, our $2.2 billion investment program at Four Seasons and Londoner will provide outstanding growth opportunities in both the premium and mass customer segments. We appreciate the clarity of the revised gaming law in June.
We look forward to participating in the concession re-tendering process as it proceeds. We continue to have the largest footprint in this incredible market. We retain great optimism at our ability to perform to pre-pandemic levels and beyond when Macao's visitation returns. We would welcome the opportunity to invest billions of additional dollars in Macao. We continue to believe Macao is an outstanding market for additional investment. We consider our portfolio of resorts in Asia to be an ideal platform for growth in the years ahead, and additionally, we continue to pursue other opportunities in large land-based destination resorts in the U.S. and Asia. Let's go to Q&A.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, the floor is now open for questions. If you would like to enter the queue to ask a question, please press star one on your telephone keypad now. If listening on speaker phone today, please pick up your handset to provide optimum sound quality. Also, we ask each participant to limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. Please hold a moment while we poll for questions. The first question is coming from Joe Greff from JP Morgan. Joe, your line is live.
Hello, everybody.
Hi, Joe.
Love to start with Singapore here. When you look back at trends within the 2Q, which were obviously encouraging, and you look at, you know, the premium mass and the VIP segments, was there anything notable in one segment versus the other throughout the quarter? How even was the recovery month-to-month in the segments throughout the quarter, other than seasonality? You talked about source markets driving improvement. What geographies are driving that improvement? Then lastly, with my multi-part question number one here, can you talk about what you've seen so far in July in the first 20 days here? Thank you.
A lot of questions there, Joe. Well, we're not gonna break out the quarter. I think it suffices to say we're pleased to be back in a strong position in Singapore. The fundamental growth there comes from obviously both base mass and premium mass. I don't think either one outshine the other. It is consistent movement in the right direction. I think the biggest thing we're seeing is the airlift is opening up, and that also remains to be the most challenging part of the Singapore recovery. Airlift is still a challenge. You know, we're getting a lot of good business out of the region, especially out of Indonesia and Malaysia, but I think there's a lot more opportunity as the airlift returns. I think you see that in our deck.
The Changi monthly visitation numbers are still relatively less than 50% of what they were pre-pandemic. Although we're delighted with Singapore, and the numbers reflect that, we think there's reason to be optimistic in the months ahead.
Great. My follow-up is.
One second on that question, Joe. If you wanna just keep. That's what I think I heard you say. Is there more to it?
No, I mean, can you just talk about what you've seen so far in July? Has that trend continued?
I think, you know, we're not going to do that. You know, we're not going to talk about July. Our deck gives you a real good sense of what happened in Q2. Again, I think the story in Marina Bay Sands is a regional story and a Singapore story. As that place gets more visitation, I think if you look on page 16 of your slide presentation, your deck there, you'll see that we've not even reached 50% capacity in Changi. It's like 46% what it was May of 2019. We're doing these numbers with a still very distressed airlift. As I think you know, unlike the U.S., where there's unfettered ability to get to regional markets, airlift is back.
Transportation, this is still a place you need to fly to. The airlift story continues to hamper the recovery. I think the $300 million-plus quarter is a pleasant upside to what we thought we'd do. There's a lot more room to run as this market opens up into places like Japan, Korea, and more travel. We're really more dependent right now on the closer-in foreign markets.
Got it. Yeah.
Joe, it's. Joe, one other thing it's Patrick. I think one thing to note when you look at Marina Bay Sands is that we're not at capacity. What I mean by that is, to Rob's point, if you look at the amount of airlift coming into Singapore, it's not where it can be, but we're at levels that are very strong relative to 2019. If you look at, you know, our non-rolling volumes, which are really speaking to the premium mass segment from the catchment area, you know, this is only going to grow. The good news is we have our team together.
You know, one of the things that's been slowing some of the growth coming out of the pandemic and really capturing some of the pent-up demand and the return to normalcy is the fact that many operators in the luxury segment didn't necessarily keep their team together throughout the pendency of the pandemic. We were fortunate enough to do that, and so now our team is ready to respond. We have plenty of capacity to absorb the growth as it comes in. Our view is that this is a good start, but we have more room to run.
To Patrick's point, Joe, one more thing to make you aware. We were there, I guess, a month or so ago. One thing that's disturbing is the hotel business. Even the luxury brands haven't been able to get open 100%.
Some running at 40%, 50% capacity because they don't have adequate personnel. That obviously feeds into Marina Bay Sands. As they get open fully this year, as that market returns, as employment grows, I think we'll grow with that. You know, there's a lot of room to run here if we get that place fully open and airlift returns to pre-pandemic numbers.
Great. Thank you for your thoughts there. Just switching over to Macao, can you just talk about what your average daily operating expense, average cash burn rate has been during this most recent casino closure there?
Grant, are you awake? Grant?
Yep, we're here.
Okay.
Yeah, good morning. Sorry, just momentarily lost you. Yeah. Joe, I think, you know, obviously second quarter, we were running at this $110 million EBITDA loss. You know, we're basically just over a million a day. As we went into second half of June, we have a local outbreak of COVID in Macao, and therefore, you know, into the third quarter. You know, clearly the revenue environment is lower than it has been in the second quarter, especially with the last week's closure of the casinos as well.
I think you can look back to where we were in 2020 in a very low tourism environment in the middle of that year, and take it from that in terms of the actual daily cash burn rate. Although I think our operating expenses have moderated a little bit since then, but that's the ballpark region.
Thanks, guys.
Thanks, Joe.
Thank you. The next question is coming from Shaun Kelley from Bank of America. Shaun, your line is live.
Hi. Good afternoon, everybody.
Shaun.
Rob, just sort of going back to Singapore for a moment. You know, the Changi numbers are really interesting. Is that a pretty good guide for, you know, I guess, visitation levels at the property? Sort of where I'm going is, you know, thinking about spend per visitor, right? We've obviously seen, you know, the pent-up demand, and those numbers rise across, you know, U.S. regional gaming, Las Vegas Strip.
Yeah.
I think we're all struggling a little bit to know exactly what, you know, Asia is gonna do.
Sure
You know, we can all, I think, do the math. If you know, visitation's down 50% and obviously you're 75% or 80% of your productivity levels already, that you know, suggests very good spend per visit levels, but obviously don't want to extrapolate just from the airport. If you could give us a little bit more guidance.
Well, I think we'd be careful in terms of extrapolating without recognizing we are running, you know, high occupancies already at Marina Bay Sands. Where I think you struggle a bit is to factor in when the rest of the market recovers. That's why I referenced the other high-end luxury hotels. There are lots of sleeping rooms who we benefit from. They come to shop, eat with us, gamble with us. We're not getting that lift, and I think that's the could be very impactful down the road. We're very happy with the spend levels we're seeing, and we're happy with the occupancy we're getting, but we're not getting that extra, people don't sleep in our hotel necessarily coming over to gamble, shop, et cetera. I think that's where we're trying to point out the visitation levels.
I also think it'll be helpful in driving better levels of play and spend as these other markets. You can't lose three million people in a month like May and not have some impact in your numbers. The question you raise is how high is up? I don't want. I'm not prepared to answer that. I don't know. You can't ignore the fact that you're losing, you know, tens of millions of people versus pre-pandemic. The point here is just to make it clear how different it is over there versus in the U.S., where visitation levels are back and access to these properties is back here in Las Vegas and regionals. It's not the case yet in Asia, and I think we'll benefit as that rises. Spend will get better.
There are retail numbers that you might look at on page 31 as some indication of how powerful the recovery is happening, even without full visitation. You can see the sales per square foot at MBS and the power of what's happening over there. The good news is we're profitable, we're seeing growth. The better news is there might be a lot more ahead of us if we can access more people into Changi, fill up more hotels around our hotel, and see a full visitation return. It's not there yet.
Great. Maybe just as my follow-up, thinking about margins in Singapore, right, you know, without the revenues being back online, it's been hard to analyze. But c an you just talk a little bit about puts and takes there now as we get back to very recovered levels on the revenue side about some of the, you know, kind of on a stabilized basis as different segments come online? Because I think, you know, there was a tax change, you know, there that impacted the market and some other things. Can you just help us think about, you know, pros and cons or segments of business that could impact margins on a stabilized basis?
Pat, do you want to take that?
Yeah, sure. A couple of things to think about. First off, just as you mentioned, after March 1, our gaming tax increased both by 3% in the premium and the non-premium side. That 3% does impact margin. Now, I think there are some other things going on in Singapore. There are some higher expenses. There's utility costs that have gone up. There's other costs to operate in the market that have gone up. Inflation that you've seen in other markets are impacting some of the things that we buy. There's also some wage inflation because there's scarcity of labor in the marketplace in Singapore. It's a high-quality environment to work in. There's just a high demand as their economy continues to grow for high-quality labor. We've seen some labor increase.
There's some things that from a cost basis side are impacting our margins. The flip side of this is we're not at full revenue yet. As we grow revenue and as we make investment in these higher value suite products, and as we grow some of the services that we offer to our patrons, in the long run, we'd like to believe our margins return back towards where they were before. We just need to be operating at a normal environment. We still have some startup, what's called fits and starts related to some expenses. I think our goal is to get our margins back to where they were, but it's going to take some revenue growth for us to get there.
Great. Thanks. That's very clear. Thank you both.
Thank you. The next question is coming from Carlo Santarelli from Deutsche Bank. Carlo, your line is live.
Hey. Thank you. Hey, guys. Thanks for taking my question.
Hey, Carlo.
Rob, maybe you could help here. Just in terms of at Marina Bay Sands, obviously, I think VIP recovered to close to 75%.
Yeah.
Of 2019 levels. As you think about that kind of moving forward, are clearly, you know, some channels, as you mentioned, Korea, Japan, and I would assume to some extent Mainland China, is curtailed, to say the least. When you think about, like, the stability of that, in the current environment, does it feel as though that's a number that's kind of a new baseline thereabout, at least as we move forward?
You mean this current quarter's results being a baseline?
I'm referring more to VIP rolling chip volume and kind of the stability of that segment of the market.
I think there's room to run. I think there's room in there. I mean, look at what's happened in Singapore. Let's begin with I glossed over in the beginning, but we're putting $1 billion in that product. It's, you know, to be very blunt about it's always been a very appealing building, but it's never had the FF&E component in the suite and room product I think it deserved. It now has that over the next 18 months it'll finish. We were there, and the product we're putting together is as good as any place we've ever operated, and I think that's going to be very helpful. Two, let's be clear that Singapore is more desirable than ever as a destination. It's growing in appeal to a lot of people for a lot of reasons. We referenced the airlift.
You referenced China. You're absolutely right. China's, you know, obviously not there. But I think you add these things together, the desirability of Singapore as a destination, the rethinking of the FF&E in that building, the return of, you know, a lot more airlift than there was, hopefully, than in 2019. Yeah, do I think that segment can run? Yes, I do. I think we can. We also have, you know, less competition in the region. Obviously, Macao is not operating at this point. But I think this Singapore business is going to continue to grow because the region, the city-state of Singapore is very desirable and more and more people are going to come to us.
You add our better building with a more desirable Singapore with a airlift, with the opening of China, with the opening of Japan, Korea et al. I think the cumulative impact here is every segment can grow. I have a lot of belief that we can drive—we have to drive it because you know, there's clearly a cost side as was referenced by Shaun and Patrick on the previous call. We will drive revenue at all segments, and we'll be very attuned to it. I think we're in a very privileged position in Singapore right now of what's happened there, both with our building and with the destination itself.
Great. That's helpful. Just as it pertains to the expansion, 1,000 new rooms, I believe you guys had the construction start kind of, I guess it was an extension on when you had to begin construction in the 2Q of next year, if I'm not mistaken. Is there anything firmer that you guys have around cost and/or plans there, that you'd be able to share?
Yeah. Patrick, do you wanna?
Sure. Absolutely. You know, Rob referenced our visit to Singapore. It was a great visit on a lot of fronts. I think we spent time in the building, and we had the opportunity to continue our dialogue around the IR2 expansion. We're very excited to begin. I think one of the things that the pandemic did, unfortunately, was slow down that process. There's just a lot of things that have to be considered to fit it in to this very complex and very busy environment to make it sort of fit all the requirements that are necessary to get the approvals to begin. I think we're working on that now, and it's something that we hope in the coming months that we'll be able to get more firm about a start date.
We're excited about it, and we're working with the government currently, and hopefully we'll get a chance to begin soon.
Great. Thank you, Patrick. Thanks, guys.
Thank you. The next question is coming from Chad Beynon from Macquarie. Chad, your line is live.
Hi. Good afternoon. Thanks for taking my question. Wanted to ask about M&A in this environment. I know that's not a normal question for you guys, but given your strong cash flow position, your balance sheet, and just compressed multiples kind of across the gaming, lodging and leisure space, how are you thinking about maybe considering some opportunistic looks across the world? Thanks.
Patrick.
You know, I think one of the things as a company that, you know, all through the pandemic and part of the pandemic, we've always focused on is how we allocate capital and how we drive the highest returns for shareholders. You may have heard us in the past say that our highest and best use of capital is new development from the ground up, and that's really what we're focused on. If you look at the history of the company and success and the way it's delivered outsized shareholder returns is exploiting its strategy of building large scale integrated resorts in new jurisdictions. That's what we're focused on. For us, I think we have opportunities unique to who we are.
We have a long track record with Rob, and his, you know, decades of experience, the rest of the team's decades of experience in developing these resorts. We're gonna look to do that before we look to buy anything. I don't think the idea is that we would never look at something. I think we're always interested. I think we're interested in seeing if there's a way to create greater returns for our shareholders. But as a practical matter, we're not an M&A-driven business. I think for us, our priorities are gonna be look for new markets, develop, build and scale, and invest over the long term to create sustainable and durable returns. That's really what we're gonna look to do. I understand that there's, you know, variability, particularly at the digital side.
There's a lot of things that have valuations now that many people see them as compelling for the long term. There's perhaps some, you know, land-based opportunities that may come up over time. As a practical matter, like everyone else, we'll look at it, see if it makes any sense for us, but we're really gonna be focused on ground up development. That's who we are.
Thank you. On MBS, again, just on margins, you kinda touched about, you know, some of the different pieces of that. Has the promotional environment between you and your competitor in the market changed versus pre-pandemic, or does it feel as rational as it was at that time? Do you expect anything to change from a promotional environment once Macao opens back up? Thanks.
We've always been lucky that that environment's not promotionally driven. I don't think it will be in the future either. We'll have to wait and see what happens in Macao, but my sense is Macao, when it opens, will not be a challenge either. There'll be plenty of demand, and usually promotional activities get out of control when there's lack of revenue. I don't think there'll be a lack of revenue in Macao or Singapore, so I feel pretty good about it.
Appreciate it. Thank you.
Sure.
Thanks, Chad.
Thank you. The next question is coming from Brandt Montour from Barclays. Brandt, your line is live.
Hey, everyone. Thanks for taking my question. First one was on Singapore. A follow-up on that last question, but more just for the Singapore market specifically. You know, we've heard a bunch of chatter out there in terms of potential interest in your main competitor in the Singapore market. Is there any scenario in which you know, a different operator could come in and take that over, and that would change the way you look at that competitive landscape?
We don't have any opinion on that. That's up to the government to make that decision. It's a duopoly market, and I don't see it having an impact either way.
Yeah. I think one thing that's important to note is that we view Marina Bay Sands as the best building in the world. In our mind, it's you know, just an unbelievable opportunity to continue to invest and operate the building and grow it over time. I don't think we view it any differently. We think the market opportunity in Singapore is absolutely unique and you know, we're very committed to long-term investment there. For us, I'm not sure it matters who operates it. You know, that's up to the Singapore government and to the owners of that business. For us, we're just focused on you know, continuing to develop our property and grow the market as best we can.
The one thing I would say about Singapore, we said it before, but we'll just reiterate, is that that place has evolved to even better than it was when we started years ago, and it keeps getting better. You look at Changi running at such a, you know, still 40%-50% capacity. You look at the desirability of that market, the things we're doing, I'm sure Genting is as well, to improve the product. It just feels like that market has a lot of room to run and to grow, for us and for our competitor. The offerings get better. Our phase II will be even stronger. To me, that's a market just beginning to feel its muscle.
Okay. Great. Thanks. That's helpful. Just as a follow-up on that, you know, as we sort of think about how to think about, you know, the constraints for how fast that MBS property can recover, the Singapore Tourism Board recently put out a number for 2022 international visitation that.
Something along those lines of, well, $4 million-$6 million for 2022. That it doesn't seem like that would incorporate a ton of, you know, ramp from here, and I know that's not necessarily exactly what you guys would see. Does that make it seem like the Changi airlift for the rest of the year is baked into the cake now? Can that be flexed up, do you think?
I'm not gonna speak for the government or what their numbers say. I think the capacity opportunity speaks for itself. I think it's more dependent not on Singapore, but on the airlines themselves and the other countries wanting to reengage and to open them all. I think the airport can obviously handle the capacity. I'd be surprised if Singapore wouldn't welcome more access, more flights. It's a question of getting the requisite employees in these airlines to get the lift going and open up these countries in a major way. I think it's hard to forecast where the world has changed, every day is different.
I'd like to think there's a lot more opportunity than that, but remains to be seen if the governments want to engage and if the airlines can get the employees to make it happen. I think demand, underlying demand, is absolutely there, just getting the ability to get there.
Great. Thanks so much, guys.
Thank you. The next question is coming from Robin Farley from UBS. Robin, your line is live.
Great. Thanks. Just a quick one on I don't know if I missed in your introductory comments, any comments on what you've talked about in the past related to online gaming and sports betting and kind of looking at B2B investments. I didn't catch if you had an update there. Thanks.
We didn't have an update. We didn't mention it. We've been focused right now on what's happened. We remain committed to our digital investments and looking at that market. Right now, the story for us is this land-based recovery, which we're feeling in Singapore. You know, we made some major strides in this company in terms of liquidity, the reopening of Singapore, and we think, you know, the upside potential of Singapore, the licensing process in Macao, we're focused on that. Of course, most importantly, the return to a normalized operating environment in Macao is paramount. We've just been so busy with that, the focus wasn't on digital right now. We continue to look at that opportunity. We continue to invest. We made a few investments, as you know, in the past.
Just simply a focus right now on land-based.
Okay. No, great. Has there been a change in what you expect for timing and spend at a potential New York project since, you know, since last quarter? Thanks.
I'm sorry, I missed your about New York.
Timing of spend.
Timing of spend. No, I think we remain a believer in that market, and the process is taking longer than I thought it would, but hopefully this year or early next, we'll know what's happening there. No, still the density of population and the ethnicity and the access in New York makes it very appealing, and lack of capacity still remains a premier market in my mind, if we can get there. A lot of competition. We're one of many in the hunt there. Nothing new to report. We have a plan in place. We're executing to it. We'll just wait for the RFP to unfold. We're nothing new in New York.
Okay, great. Thank you.
Sure. Thanks, Robin.
Thank you. The next question is coming from Steve Wieczynski from Stifel. Steve, your line is live.
Yeah, hey, guys. Good afternoon. This will probably be for Grant, and it's probably gonna be a difficult question to even answer. You know, Grant, I guess for, you know, for us non-Chinese citizens, it's extremely tough for us to understand, you know, where China is with respect to the reopening process. I don't know if you can help us understand, you know, maybe what you're hearing around the zero case policy, which I mean, I think the rest of the world probably fully knows at this point, it's never, you know, really going to work.
If some of these harsher stances toward the virus could, you know, start to get relaxed before, you know, maybe is there a timeframe you guys are watching or anything, is there anything you've heard? Maybe is it the October election? I guess, you know, anything around that would be, you know, very, very helpful. Thanks.
Yeah. Thanks for the question. I think as you alluded to, there's not much that we can help with in terms of any speculation on timelines or changes. I think what we're focused on is, you know, what's happening in Macao. I think, you know, the things that we can effect is to make sure that we do help the, you know, the prevailing government policy, so that we can actually get Macao reopened back with Zhuhai, the neighboring city in Mainland, as quickly as possible. That means, I think aligning ourselves fully and safely with the overall COVID policy. That's what's happening right now.
Hopefully over the coming weeks, we will be progressively reopening all of the facilities that we've had to close in the past week. That's what we're really focused on. It's really not our place to speculate on future changes on the overall health policy. I don't know if Wilfred has more to add on that.
No, I think, Grant, you're right. At this stage, I think the whole country is also embroiled in this COVID situation, and obviously, policies will evolve. We in Macao are trying our best to support the local government in order that Macao can return to normalcy.
Okay, great. Thanks for that, guys. Rob, obviously, there's been some movement with regards to the new Macao gaming laws, regulations, whatever way you wanna think about it, which actually seem pretty favorable. You know, wondering how you guys are viewing those regulation changes and maybe any of the pros or cons that you see emerging from those.
Well, we're grateful for the clarity from the government. I think the process is moving very well. I think a lot of the concerns some people had have been eliminated. We're just going through a process and hoping to complete this thing in due course. Obviously, we're all pleased. I think all the operators are pleased how this is playing out, and we're hoping for a positive conclusion. You know, I think a lot of the fears have been erased. Grant or Wilfred can comment. That's as far as I can take it.
I think that's right, Rob.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think we're.
Grant, go ahead.
No, I was just gonna add that, you know, obviously we're very appreciative to that during this difficult time on the COVID front that the government and the legislature were able to move forward to complete the passing of the revised gaming law towards the end of June, and that we were able to also execute the six-month extension that takes us to the end of this year. I think the whole process is moving forward expeditiously. As Rob said, we look forward to, you know, participating in the tendering process.
Stephen, one thing I would say, our company, as you know, has been through an awfully difficult couple of years, more than most because we're Asia focused. We've now completed the sale in Las Vegas gives us more than ample liquidity no matter what happens. Singapore is up and making money and there's more to come. We're very grateful for what's happening in Singapore. We see a lot better days ahead. The Macao licensing process is the same way. It feels like we've survived. A lot of people are concerned, but in the end, it's worked out for everybody in a positive manner thus far. Hope that continues.
We're just waiting for the thing you referenced initially, which is when does the government rethink the zero COVID or how does that play out? We don't know. Don't pretend to know. That's the last thing we're waiting for to get our company back to a much better place. Three of the four have been achieved, so we'll continue to press on with the license and wait patiently for the government to advise us on the reopening of Macao.
Okay, great. Thanks, Rob. Really appreciate it.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is coming from David Katz from Jefferies. David, your line is live.
Hi. Afternoon. Thanks for taking my questions. Number one, I wanted to ask about just the physical plant in Macao and, you know, recalling that, you know, those are, you know, have a significant number of, you know, private rooms that were historically used for VIP. You know, how do we think about kinda that spatial layout and planning going forward? I have a follow-up in another direction.
Grant, you wanna take that? Because I have my own views, but I think you should.
Yep. Sure. I think we've been watching as the market has been evolving and also planning for the future. I think a lot of the salons, and certainly that applies to the new salons that we've developed as part of the Grand Suites at Four Seasons and the Londoner Macao projects. I think they're really premium salons, premium gaming salons that could be applicable and used by the different segments, whether that's the VIP rolling or the premium mass. Clearly, I think Macao overall may be relooking at how each operator redeploys their assets.
As far as we're concerned, especially the new products that we've developed over the past two years, we feel pretty positive about, you know, redeploying a lot of those gaming spaces for the premium mass segment. Also over time, as we look towards, you know, the future, also the premium direct segment and attracting the overseas markets in the rest of Asia into those products. We've been currently going through a planning exercise on the future deployment of those areas. You know, as the market evolves and as things normalize, we'll be able to get more definition around that.
You know, even as of the past 12 months, we've been redeploying some of those rooms that were assigned to the rolling segment to the non-rolling segments.
Hey, David, no one ever thought, you know, additional gaming space in Macao was a bad thing. As we focus more-
Right.
On base mass and premium mass, I think it actually expands our ability to make more money. The junket business we always know is a margin challenged business. I feel grateful we have all this new space coming back to us that we can redeploy. We're still gonna be the world's biggest gaming market. We're land-based, and we'll have the biggest footprint. As Grant and Wilfred and the team rethink that space, I think it adds all kinds of premium opportunities for base mass, premium mass, and direct premium as well. To me, it's a very valuable transition to a higher focused margin business. That enables us to, again, Macao, the penetration in China is still, I think, sub 3% for the Chinese population. It's going to be a growth market.
Capacity will be an issue down the road because there are new casinos opening. I think that space may prove to be very valuable as we get back to work in Macao, hopefully this year or next. I think we're lucky to have all that extra space. We can, you know, redeploy a more profitable way down the road. Happy to have it back.
Understood. As my follow-up, you've done obviously the Singapore MBS did a lot better than what we had. Just looking at the ADR of, I think, $330, and I'm not sure that you cover this directly so far. When we look back to 2019, it was. There's still some headroom there. It was about $90 ADR higher. How do you sort of see that evolving as we roll forward?
Patrick, you want to take that?
Yeah, sure. Happy to. I think some of it has to do with sort of start up across the quarter. I think, you know, one of the other things to note is that it's not, you know, fully recovered with all the different segments because there is, you know, sort of not as much FIT and MICE demand as we had, you know, across 2019. So you're going to see some ADR spread from that. But I think the most important thing to note is we're making, as Rob referenced, a billion-dollar investment in our product there. Over time, our ADR will be higher.
Across the next six quarters, let's sort of focus on at the end of 2023 in time for Chinese New Year of 2024, we're going to have 400 new suites that we never had before. They're the highest quality suites we've ever done as a company, and we're going to drive different ADR. While we're out a couple of 100 suites now, we've got rooms out of inventory. We've got a lot of things going on through the building. It's startup period. I wouldn't look at this ADR as representative.
Yeah.
Over the next couple of quarters, as we have rooms out of inventory, there's going to be some choppiness. By the time we're done getting into 2023 and getting across 2023 when the project is completed, then you'll have a good look at what ADR can really be under the value of the full investment, which is substantial. It's basically a complete redo of Towers One, Towers Two, and some of the common spaces and amenity spaces that we have. It's going to be a fundamentally different experience for our guests, and we hope and believe very strongly that they'll pay a lot more for it because it will attract a higher value tourist, and that's really our goal.
Our biggest problem in the days ahead in MBS is that Changi recovery continues and passengers come back. Our biggest problem won't be ADR. It's going to be having enough rooms to accommodate all the demand. ADR will climb either through casino, direct or through cash customers or through convention. There'll be no problem getting back. That's not the issue. The issue has always been is we're capacity constrained at MBS. We need more sleeping rooms, and we'll get the ADR. The recovery you're seeing here is in its infancy. It's just beginning. Be assured that we can get the ADR back to pre-COVID levels and above. In fact, I hope we can do much better with casino demand and drive the casino ADR as well.
Perfect. Thank you so much.
Sure. Thank you.
Thanks, David.
Thank you. Last question is coming from Dan Politzer from Wells Fargo. Dan, your line is live.
Hey, thanks for taking my question. So, you know, given the momentum you're seeing in Singapore and the recovery is still in its infancy, how do you think about the long-term path, you know, to getting back to pre-COVID, you know, the $1.7 billion of EBITDA in the event China doesn't open? Do you need China to reopen to kind of get back or get close to that level? Or, you know, given what you're seeing now, do you have a, you know, line of sight to getting near there in the absence of China reopening?
It's a good question, and we're watching like you are. I think let's not ever dismiss the importance of China in any of our businesses. China's, you know, is still a powerhouse as a consumer market, and we should never dismiss it as powerful. Can we get to $400 million a quarter, you know, without China? You know, most people would think not. But then again, I would have thought we wouldn't have done this well with Changi still having underperforming in terms of visitation. You know, it depends. Like the U.S., I think you have to question where will the over-indexing come from? Will Indonesia, Malaysia, and other source markets over-index? And that's the question. We don't know the answer to that.
Will there be pent-up demand coming out of, you know, Thailand and Vietnam and Indonesia and, you know, could Korea outperform? I just don't know. We'll have to wait and see how those markets open up again. We're in uncharted waters here. It's new. I would never dismiss the importance of China as a market for anybody in our retail business, our hotel business, our casino business. China is very, very critical to everybody in Asia, and you can see that in any market you participate in. How high is up without China returning? I do have to wait and see together. There's a lot of good drivers here that make us feel good. The visitation makes us feel like there's opportunity there. Our renovation feels like it's going to be very impactful as it comes online.
The over-indexing of non-China markets feels like it's coming on strong. I think we'll revisit that and we'll have a better answer for you next quarter we print our numbers.
Got it. Just as a follow-up, I know COVID cases in Singapore actually have been rising lately. You know, given your experience working with the government and your perception, I guess, on their stance of living with COVID and the stage of reopening we're in, do you see any risk with additional restrictions coming back or being put in place?
Patrick, you want to grab that?
Yeah, sure. Happy to. I think at this point, you know, all we can do is be optimistic about the public health posture that Singapore's shown. They've shown a lot of leadership. They have a significant history of investment in their hospital system and their public health infrastructure, and I think they're proceeding as they've said. I think they've broadcast it all along, and they followed what they've laid out. As we sit here right now, I think they're, you know, moving in the way they said they're going to do, which is continue to have visitation, continue to be involved in the growth in their economy and move forward with, you know, this is an endemic situation. We don't know.
I think this is something where, you know, we've obviously shown flexibility to respond as needed to support the government and their initiatives. At this time, it seems like we're heading in the right direction. Could that change in the future? We don't know.
Got it. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. This does conclude today's conference call. You may disconnect your phone lines at this time and have a wonderful day. We thank you for your participation.