Good morning, everyone. I'm Ryan Krueger from KBW. I cover life insurers here. It's great to have MetLife back at the conference again this year. Up on stage with me is Michel Khalaf, who is President and CEO, and John McCallion, who is CFO. I'll just make some quick introductions, and then we'll get into the Q&A. Michel has been President and CEO since 2019. He originally joined MetLife in 2010 as CEO of the Middle East, Africa, and South Africa regions from the Alico acquisition that MetLife did, and became the President of EMEA in 2011 before taking on additional responsibilities as the head of the U.S. businesses in 2017, prior to his current role. John became CFO in 2018.
He originally joined the company in 2006 and has had several different senior management roles, including Treasurer and CFO of EMEA, as well as Head of Investor Relations. So with that, I'll kick things off. Earlier this year, you raised the ROE target to 13%-15% from 12%-14% previously. Can you talk about the key aspects of your strategy that led to that improved outlook?
Sure, and thanks for having us back, Ryan. Always great to be here at this conference. Feels really comfortable in these chairs as well this year, so that's a good thing. You know, I think the increase in our ROE target range is really a reflection of the transformation that we've undergone for a number of years now, whereby we've improved the, you know, overall enterprise risk profile while enhancing returns. And I think also speaks to the all weather nature of our Next Horizon strategy and how well we've been executing on it. You know, there are a few sort of contributors that I would point to here.
The first one I would say is, you know, our focus better, which is all about, deploying capital to its highest and best use, and the consistency and discipline in which we've been able to do so. So if we, you know, consider, capital in support of new business, we've been, consistently achieving, mid to high teens IRRs and low payback periods. And, you know, we disclose our VNB numbers every year, so you can see that clearly. And you know, we're a big ship, so it takes time for that to start to have an impact, but over time, it does bleed into our, the ROE. You know, the other thing I would point to is also, you know, that sort of same, discipline when it comes to, M&A.
I would argue that, you know, the M&A, M&A transactions that we have done here have all created value. I would give you an example with Versant Health, where when we acquired the company, we had pointed to us achieving IRRs that were well in excess of our minimum risk-adjusted hurdle rates. And then, you know, when it comes to excess capital, you know, again, here, we're guided by our IRR when it comes to you know, what we can achieve on, on share repurchases. You know, the other area that I would say also is a major contributor here is you know, around expense discipline and this efficiency mindset that we've talked about, that's really now part of the DNA of the company.
And if you think that we've, you know, we reduced our Direct Expense Ratio by 200 basis points, we've maintained it below 12.6, absorbing a lot of inflationary pressures, but also freeing up capacity to continue to invest in the business, which is extremely important. Again, I think that speaks to sort of, you know, how that's been playing out. And, and you know, besides these two sort of more strategic areas, I would say that the, you know, higher interest rates are generally, you know, good for MetLife. And, you know, over time, I think we're gonna continue to see that. So really, the, y ou know, when we announced in February that we're increasing the ROE target to 13%-15%, you know, it was really a recognition of sort of the progress we've made on all of these fronts, and I think also reflective of the momentum that, you know, those actions are building as well.
Great, thanks. And then I guess if we think about the first half of this year, we've certainly had some headwinds, the variable investment income, like, like, like everyone. But if you look beyond that, how are your results tracking so far this year relative to your outlook expectations?
Yeah, maybe I'll jump on that one, and thanks for having us, Ryan, great to see you and everyone here. I think, you know, first half, like you said, VII certainly has had some headwinds, but, you know, again, that asset class is there for a purpose to decrease the long tail component of the liabilities. But when you strip that out, I mean, I think, and Michel and I have talked about this a few times, you know, quite honestly, the first two quarters of this year have been really tremendous across the board. I mean, the underlying fundamentals of all the businesses are performing well.
You know, higher rates, certainly, as Michel has said, has been, has helped us, but the reality is, it's a lot of the actions that we've taken prior to that, that have put us in a good position for that, you know, growth, and we saw this in the second quarter. Obviously, the U.S.... Yeah, I know. So sorry if you didn't hear that. The first part was really good, but- But, you know, obviously, the, you know, U.S. has had a, you know, consistently strong-... You know, I'd say number of quarters here, we saw non-U.S., really starting to, you know, kind of rise up here. And I mean, I'd say the second quarter was tremendous, across the board. And, you know, they've been a resilient bunch, really.
Everything that they've had to go through, and obviously everyone's had some challenges, but the growth aspects of the, you know, the business overall, I'd say everyone had did a great job in the, in the second quarter, controlling what they can control and really positioning themselves and, you know, using, quite honestly, the pandemic as an opportunity to come out stronger. And I'd say, you know, probably third thing, which Michel touched on, was, you know, expense discipline remains, you know, a real core component of our strategy, of our DNA. Year to date, our Direct Expense Ratio is 12.1%. Again, comparing that to 12.6% target. So again, I think the team's just done a really tremendous job, and we're really, you know, happy with the underlying fundamentals of the business right now.
Thanks. Moving into group benefits specifically, you've been generating mid-single-digit top-line growth. You also have a leading market share in the business. So wanted to get your thoughts on, you know, kinda how you're still being able to drive, you know, that type of growth despite how high your market share is, and then just also how you look at the growth opportunity going forward over the next several years.
Sure. I mean, group benefits is, you know, an attractive segment, I would say, of the, you know, life industry in the U.S. It's, you know, it's a capital-light business, healthy margins, with good growth opportunities as well, and we're obviously market leaders in this, in this space. You know, we've talked before about, you know, how important scale is, and that's really because you need to continuously invest in this business, something that we've been doing over a number of years and we continue to do. And it's, you know, it's sort of like a virtual circle because, you know, the more you invest to meet customer needs and expectations, employers and employees, the more you're gonna be able to build scale, the more you're gonna be able to continue to make those investments.
You know, we've... I said on the second quarter call that, you know, we expect that by the end of this year, our PFOs would reach $24 billion, which compared to 2019 would be, you know, an additional $5 billion in PFOs. That's a CAGR of 5%, so right in the middle of the range that we've pointed to. And we feel good about our ability to continue to deliver, you know, within that range. I would—you know, I think that confidence, I would say, is born out of a few factors. The first, you know, I will call out the importance of relationships and capabilities, and I would talk about those two in tandem. You know, relationships matter.
We have a very strong position, a leading position in the national account space, which is the 5,000 plus market. On average, our customers have been with us for over 20 years. You know, that's important, and I think a reflection of its importance is the fact that 75% of new sales are coming from, you know, either adding product or improving enrollment with existing customers. I say I marry capability with relationship because, you know, to get these types of outcomes, we have invested significantly in the business and our ability to integrate with the employer benefits ecosystem, and how we, in enrollment and re-enrollment capabilities. We've also deployed AI to help accelerate some of these initiatives, especially when it comes to underwriting and claims and customer experience.
So, you know, all in all, we feel good about our ability to continue to grow in that, in that segment. The other thing I would point to here is, you know, the importance of product, and we have the widest product range in the industry. That's, I think, particularly important when it comes to regional market, which is the 2,000-5,000 market segment. That's how we define it at MetLife. You know, and here, based on our analysis, we believe we're a top three player already. We've been able to grow at high single digits, outgrow the market there. You know, one of the ways that we do that is by bringing more product to market.
You know, I think a good data point here is the fact that, today, 50% of our customers in regional market have two or more products with us. So, you know, I think that's, you know, that's an area that we're excited about. And then, you know, I would also say that at the lower end of the market, really, the, you know, only one in four employers offer any types of, benefits at all. So there's a lot of white space as well that we think we can, we can take advantage of here. And then the third area I would, you know, I would point to is voluntary. And, you know, voluntary is not a new strategy for us. It's been a focus area for us for a number of years.
For a number of years, we've been able to grow voluntary at high teens, and we believe, again here, that that's sustainable. We're a market leader in A&H, we're a market leader in legal products, and we've added pet insurance, where we see good growth opportunities as well to our product offering. You know, I think here, you know, just, you know, to give you a sense of sort of how the market is evolving, you know, currently, 20% of our overall sales in group, you know, come from employee-paid products, where, you know, the, you know, we're enhancing enrollment and take-up rates.
So, you know, I think that speaks to sort of the opportunity there, and I think all of these things combined give us good confidence in our ability to sustain the growth momentum we've seen in the group business going forward.
W e've seen as we've emerged from the pandemic, I'd say most companies are reporting pretty favorable group benefits results right now. Are you seeing any impact to the competitive environment, as a result of this favorable experience?
Yeah, I think to your point, I mean, what we've seen, you know, certainly in recent quarters is sort of a, you know, reversion to pre-pandemic levels when it comes to underwriting ratios, seasonality, and the like. That's especially true, I would say, for life and dental. You know, disability has seen strong, strong results. I think that's down to a tight labor market. It's a smaller component of our business, but we've seen that as, you know, as well as the rest of the industry. You know, from a competitive landscape perspective, I would say, we don't see any substantive changes there. I think the market is competitive, in some instances, highly competitive, but not irrational.
And I think the short nature of the products that are, you know, offered here, you know, acts in some ways as a deterrent for somebody sort of being irrational for a sustained period of time. I mean, the other... I think, you know, what we also see here is, you know, post-pandemic, clearly there's heightened awareness, as to the importance of protection products. So, you know, we've seen more interest in, you know, those products. And what we also see is, you know, a continuation of the trend where employers value benefits as a tool to retain and attract talent. And, you know, employers also are placing greater value. They're not expecting only a check from their employers; they're expecting much more.
So all those things, I think, are good for the industry as a whole, and as a leader in the industry, you know, I think we, you know, clearly expect to continue to benefit from those as well.
Great. Shifting over to the retirement business, there's a number of products there: pension risk transfers, structured settlements, stable value, funding agreements, a bunch of different things. Can you talk about kind of where you're seeing the best growth opportunities in that business right now?
Yeah. I mean, we've seen really strong results coming out of RIS, and we've always talked about sort of the diversification that we have in RIS, which really enables us to perform, you know, across different market environments and conditions. So our, you know, RIS is a, you know, set of life insurance, institutional income annuities, and investment products. And, you know, we continue to see good opportunities across the board, I would say. A couple of areas that I would point to here, you know, one, I would say PRT, and I would say U.S. and U.K. You know, we're seeing really healthy funding levels, which typically indicates that an early indicator that plan sponsors are likely to transact.
You know, last year was a record year for us in terms of $12 billion plus in PRT sales. You know, obviously, that was helped by the $8 billion IBM deal. We tend to play in the jumbo end of the market, retiree-only cases, and we feel good about our ability to continue to win our fair share there. We're very disciplined in our approach to PRT. And I would also say that, you know, we never want one business to be sort of the oversized business when it comes to RIS or any other business. But we, you know, we think this is a good business with healthy returns, and we expect to continue to play there. And from a U.K. perspective, we're in the U.K. longevity market, reinsurance market.
You know, from a standing start, we've built that to about $19 billion in notional and about $1 billion in recurring PFOs, and our entry to the market has been extremely well-received, and we continue to see good prospects there. You know, another business that I would just also mention here, where we're seeing really good growth, is the structured settlement business. You know, a couple of things are happening there. One, the backlog in the courts from COVID has eased, so that's been helpful to that business. And then higher rates mean that, you know, the settlement options are more attractive as well.
We're a market leader, and, you know, we're continuing to see a really good, good growth, there, and we're achieving very healthy, returns as well. So that's... those are, you know, a couple of examples of sort of, you know, this, how this diversification comes into play and how different product sets, you know, react to different market environments. But overall, you know, if you think about RIS, I mean, this is a business in 2019 that was generating $310 million or $300+ million, $310 million is the exact number, on average a quarter, and it's now generating $410 million a quarter. So I think that speaks to, you know, just the growth that we're seeing and how this business has performed post-pandemic as well.
You've seen spread... Excluding VII, you've seen spreads kind of continuously expand over the last several quarters in this business. Can you help us think through kind of the impact of the interest rate caps and how that is affecting your results? And then, I guess, as we move forward, those are gonna start rolling off at some point, but then you have the benefit of higher long-term interest rates. So... Can you try to put all that together?
Yeah, sure. Like you said, it was a, you know... We took action at the time when, you know, the risk of rising rates weren't so great, right? To buy protection for that potential. And obviously, shape of the curve matters in that segment. Higher and longer rates, good. Typically short end can put pressure on us. Caps have offset that pretty materially, and has helped kind of manage, you know, that transition, I'll call it, right? From, you know, the fact that rates are getting are higher, they will kind of materialize and find their way into the overall spreads of, of the business, but those caps kind of give us that protection over the short term. And so that kind of protects our spreads, if you will.
Look, I think they'll start to roll off now, right? And so, shape of the curve will matter and things like that. I think, you know, if you just use the second quarter, we're at, I think, 142 bps of spread ex VII. I'd say, you know, our view is that the third and fourth quarter are in that vicinity, maybe tick down a bit each quarter, a few basis points, you know, per quarter, but in general, should be pretty resilient this year, relative, you know, relatively speaking. And then, you know, I think we'll have to see where the shape of the curve will matter going forward, right? And so we'll need to see where that is, and obviously, we'll provide some updates in our outlook call for the next year.
Let's move into Asia. Interest rates have increased there. They're still low, but they're a lot higher than they've been. And then you also sell U.S. dollar-denominated products, and interest rates are higher, here as well. So can you talk about how this has impacted demand, for your products in Asia?
Yeah. I mean, the higher U.S. rates have continued to sort of drive demand for single premium FX products in Japan. And, you know, we were sort of innovators in this space. I think we continue to be, you know, important players as well. And, you know, really pleased with sort of how, you know, our trajectory in Japan and the rest of Asia, but Japan in particular, you know, coming out of the pandemic. You know, a couple of things I would point to there in terms of the FX annuities products, you know, there, we're continuing to maintain our share, I would say. The banca channel is a major distributor of these products. It's a competitive channel.
So, you know, again, we remain very disciplined in terms of our approach and returns that we generate on this business. And then we. You know, one of the things I think that we've been successful at is in Japan, is the speed in which we're able to bring new products to market. And a good demonstration of that was in the second quarter, where the introduction of our single premium dollar life product, you know, we saw really good, you know, take-up for that product. And during the quarter, we think that's going to continue, hopefully so. So that's been another sort of important factor for us.
The diversification that we have, whether it's product or distribution, is also helpful to us in Japan in terms of maintaining our trajectory going forward.
Japan has a new economic solvency ratio proposal that has been talked about for many years. I believe it's supposed to happen in 2025, finally. It's more similar to Solvency II. You know, how are you thinking about this and how it could impact MetLife in Japan?
Yeah, I think our, you know, our view has been that, you know, a more economic framework is way better. Right now, the SMR has an asymmetrical situation associated with it, so higher rates, the ratio goes down, and yet higher rates are better for the business. And certainly, as, you know, you just talked about, you know, we have a heavy dose of U.S. dollar-denominated products, and that, and that's where rates have really risen. But the reality is that's better economically. And and I think that alignment will bring, you know, is, is much more, you know, better for the, the industry, and, and we're certainly been supportive of that.
You know, we've always used an economic framework anyway, within our company, as well as looking at the statutory frameworks that are in each jurisdiction. So, you know, we're very, very supportive. Obviously, I think there are a few minor things that the industry is working with the FSA on, just to see if we can make some, which we believe would be better refinements. So we're hopeful there, but ultimately, I think even where it stands today, we think it's a, you know, it's a positive for the industry.
I think in terms of business, you know, I would say on the margin, it might affect some things like how we leverage reinsurance or some products that we have, but I think overall, you know, in general, we've always worked under that economic framework, so we wouldn't expect a material impact.
Got it. In Latin America, you've had very strong growth, you know, for a while now. Can you talk about, you know, the key, the key drivers of that and what you're seeing in that market?
Yeah. I'm, I mean, really pleased with LatAm's performance. And, you know, even during the pandemic, we had pointed to the fact that sort of the underlying strength of the franchise was, you know, really maintained, sustained, and even enhanced, I would say, and we're seeing that play out coming out of the pandemic. And, you know, and again, if you think about LatAm, pre-pandemic, we were generating about $150 million a quarter in adjusted earnings, where last two quarters have been in the 200+ range. You know, I think a number of factors that I believe give us confidence in our ability to sustain momentum there. The first one is, you know, we have a really simple, clear strategy, with four pillars. The first is protect the core.
We have some, you know, we're market leaders in Mexico and in Chile. We have a dominant position in Mexico, for example, on the work side, government front. So, you know, it's important to continue to maintain very good persistency there and to grow that business moderately as well, which is we've been able to do. So, so that's one. And to do that, I would say, you know, we need to continue to make, you know, investments in customer experience and new capabilities and the like, which we've been doing in LatAm. The second one is growth through diversification.
So, you know, leveraging some of the capabilities that we've built, for example, in the work side, government, to, you know, build a, over time, similar franchise in the private sector, for example, something that we've been working on for a number of years. We're starting to see good traction. And also diversifying by, you know, growing in the group benefit space and in banca and direct marketing. Those are very interesting channels. Again, we're seeing really good traction there. And I think that's also consistent with some of the overall dynamics we see in the region, where, you know, if you think about overall penetration levels, they're still below OECD levels. The pandemic has heightened the awareness and the need for protection-type products.
So, you know, those all, you know, are good sort of factors for the industry as a whole. And, you know, the third one is a flight to quality that we've seen. I mean, we've paid close to $1 billion in COVID claims in Mexico, and that counts for something, you know, coming out of the pandemic, and we're benefiting from that as well. And then, you know, the third sort of area that, again, gives us confidence in our ability to sustain our momentum is Brazil. And, you know, Brazil is a very interesting market, very heavily concentrated, you know, banca-dominated, I would say. But we're seeing that change. You know, we've seen a number...
Digital adoption in Brazil has risen extremely fast, and we've seen, you know, new players come into, to the market, digital banks. We've also seen, you know, other sponsors become, you know, more prominent in the market as potential distributors for our, our products. And again, here, some of the investments we've made, are helpful to us because they position us as really attractive partners. So, Brazil has been a good story. It's now accounts for about 20% of LatAm overall sales. I think that's gonna grow over time. Last year, we grew sales by 30% in Brazil. I think this year will be, you know, will run at a similar pace, so really bullish on Brazil.
And then the last area is, I think all the investments we've been making in the customer experience and digitizing our business, again, deploying some AI capabilities there. So that enables, I think, this growth trajectory. So for those reasons, we feel, we feel good about our, you know, prospects on, you know, as far as LatAm is concerned.
Thanks. Switching gears a bit, to the investment portfolio. Can you give an update on your commercial mortgage and real estate equity portfolios and, and how they're performing in this environment?
Yeah, sure. So you know, obviously, there's the environment is, is under a bit of stress in general. But I think what's important when you think about our, you know, our approach to this is probably three things. First is ALM. You know, these are really good assets for a sticky set of liabilities, right? Our liabilities do not change in duration under stress, right? So, one, they work from an ALM perspective. Two, you know, as we approach this, we focus on high-quality assets with strong institutional sponsors. Very important, sponsors that have managed this throughout cycles and crises and have been there before and understand what it takes, to manage through and to effectively come out stronger. And then three is kinda how we enter, right?
So think like the commercial mortgage loan portfolio. You know, generally speaking, you know, when we enter a loan, we're looking at kind of the 50s in terms of LTV. And we do that so that in times of stress, we can absorb that valuation hit, and we're seeing that today, right? And I think, you know, if you look at the second quarter, you know, we had marked all of our office portfolio. We took the initiative to get through all the office since it had some, you know, focus in the industry. And obviously, like I said, they are, you know, high-quality assets, strong sponsors. And, despite that, and it was probably... You know, we estimate it's probably about a 25% peak-to-trough impact in that valuation of appraisals.
You know, our LTVs moved, I think, overall from 58-62, and debt service coverage ratio had a modest decline from 2.4-2.3. So again, that kind of resiliency and robustness of our portfolios is a function of our approach to the market, and I think that's, you know, really important. I think the other thing I would highlight is, you know, we have the commercial mortgage loan space. We also are a leader in in real estate equity investments. And having both of those, again, provide us the expertise and opportunity to underwrite the collateral correctly, be comfortable owning it if we need to. But the reality is, the portfolio is holding up very well. We've resolved about 70% or so of maturities this year.
I think earlier in the year, we talked about maybe $200 million of pressure in terms of total loans for the year. That's still our estimate in terms of what could have, you know, some possible minor write-off of, say, $15 million-$20 million. So again, very manageable, but it all comes back to our approach to this asset class. And so, you know, overall, performing well. Obviously, there's stress in the market, but, you know, we're comfortable with the position we have today.
Can you talk about the composition of the alternative investment portfolio, and also how you're thinking about the near-term performance there?
Sure. So again, go back to ALM. These alternatives are there to defease liabilities. Typically, we use them for the tail, right? So it's a long term. Over time, these assets have, you know, particularly in the PE space, generated returns of around 12% or 3% a quarter. But, you know, they're a little under that today. You know, composition-wise, we're about $14.5 billion of PE. There's another $100 million now of hedge funds. That was something that we intentionally reduced over the years. And then we have about $3.5 billion of, call it, real estate related of funds, if you will. And so, you know, the last quarter, we saw things starting to stabilize. I mean, you know, we saw some declines in the fourth, the first quarter.
PE was a positive 1.5% return in the second quarter. You know, we still saw some pressure from real estate of minus 1.9% in the second quarter. One of the things we highlighted, we thought that, you know... We think we've hit the trough. We don't think this is a V-shaped recovery in this asset class. We think it's more U-ish, if you will, if that's a term. So our view is in the third quarter will be something similar. I think early signs so far is probably the PE returns. I mean, we haven't seen much yet. We'll get a lot of that in September, but our conversations and everything indicate, you know, probably something similar to what we saw in the second quarter of 1.5%.
Real estate, we're getting a little more insight. Now, remember, all this is on a quarter lag, so think, you know, I just mentioned that we marked our portfolio, and there was a lot of marks to the portfolio in the second quarter. We're seeing that come through, those marks, on our real estate funds as well. So I think returns could be a little more negative in the real estate front. Maybe that's a $20 million-$30 million headwind off of our VII number of 220-ish in the second quarter. But, you know, overall, we think we've hit the trough, and, you know, I think there'll be a over time recovery in the broad asset class here.
So MetLife has done a number of dispositions in recent years. The latest was the reinsurance transaction with Global Atlantic. You know, do you think there's still more to do on the disposition front, or are you largely content with where the portfolio sits today?
Yeah, I think we're, you know, we're always looking at our portfolio through the lens of strategic fit and whether our, you know, a business or a market is able to achieve a minimum risk-adjusted hurdle rate, or there's a reasonable path to it achieving that. And, you know, that's an ongoing exercise, I would say. So we're going to continue to look at our portfolio through that lens. You know, I think the good news, whether you think about sort of any gaps that we see or any burning platforms, is that, you know, there aren't any that we see. And that puts us, I think, in a position of strength, of being, you know, opportunistic.
And, you know, when we sort of transact, we transact from a position of strength, which I think allows us to achieve, you know, value, create value for shareholders here. So that's the approach. I think we're going to continue to, you know, to deploy that same approach going forward. And like I said, whereas there's nothing, you know, there's no burning platform, I think we're going to continue with that same discipline. We think it's, you know, the right way to, you know, as we think about how to continue to shape and reshape our portfolio.
You know, I think just to add to that, I mean, I think just to emphasize the point that, you know, not being forced to do anything is a real advantage. I mean, you heard it with us, with, you know, our commercial mortgage portfolio and our positioning here, with, you know, how we manage and optimize, you know, the runoff, and then obviously, the capabilities we have. I think just in general, that is a, you know, something we focus on a lot.
Then, how are you prioritizing capital return between, you know, M&A, buybacks, dividends, especially now that you've freed up this $3.25 billion from Global Atlantic deal? I guess a question, you know, that's been common is, you know, are you looking to return all of that to shareholders, the capital that you freed up, or would you like to maintain some cushion given uncertainty in the economy?
I think from a... Let me start with dividend. I think from a dividend perspective, we'd like to, you know, have a competitive dividend, you know, that is, you know, that generally, over time, grows in line with our, the growth in our adjusted earnings, I would say. You know, from an excess capital perspective, I mean, we've talked about, you know, our philosophy, which is, I think now, you know, more than just a philosophy, because I think we've, we've been consistent in how, you know, we've gone about this. You know, we've said that, you know, we're comfortable with the $3 billion-$4 billion buffer, you know, liquidity buffer at our holdcos.
So, you know, and after investing in organic growth and in the absence of accretive value-creating M&A, you know, we are going to return capital to shareholders. And, you know, and, and as I said, I think we've been consistent. When we announced the deal, we also announced an increase in our buyback authorization to $4 billion. So that, I think, should give folks sort of an indication in terms of the direction of traffic here. And, you know, obviously, the deal hasn't closed. We still expect it to close in the second half of the year. And look, at the time, we're going to obviously assess the environment. That's something that we would do anyway.
But I would say that, you know, what we've done before in the wake of major divestitures in terms of being deliberate, expeditious in how we've returned capital should also serve as a good guide in terms of how we would proceed here.
Great. Well, I think that we're about out of time, so I think we'll wrap it up here. Thank you very much for participating in the conference again this year.
Thank you.
Thank you, Ryan.
Thanks, Ryan.