Even like you and I talking now, you can't do that on the Webexes or, so.
Good morning, and thanks for being here. We're really excited to have MSA with us, including Lee McChesney, CFO. We're going to dive right into a fireside chat. If you do have any questions, please raise your hand. We love participation. So with that, thanks for being here. So you talked about having an encouraging commercial pipeline, nice continuation of order activity into July. Can you talk about the demand trends into July by segment or region?
Yeah, perfect, so Saree, thank you, first of all, for the invitation to join today. So, yeah, so back in July, we talked about gave an update on just how the demand environment is across the portfolio. It's, you know, amazing resilient. I mean, we're a resilient business in this, in our own nature, in terms of, you know, whether it's the fire services business or the detection business. You know, the economy certainly matters, but, you know, there's an installed base there that has a lot of recurring business, so that's helpful for us. But just broadly, market-wise, in terms of new business, you know, it's the fire services are still holding in quite well, as they naturally do.
Within the detection space, you're certainly seeing still continued investments in new projects in the fixed detection space, you know, portable detection, and then the industrial PPE markets as well. Which just, you know, has a bit more of a linkage to labor. You know, typically, at this stage in a cycle, you might expect to see more pressure, but there's still enough projects going on, and again, we're pretty widespread in terms of how we serve the economy. Yeah, sure, we can find some challenged areas. You know, I could look, for example, in the U.S., in an area that has more of a just a pure manufacturing orientation.
We'll see some pressure, but then other areas where maybe, there's some infrastructure spend going on, or there's, you know, investments in energy, you're still seeing a nice positive. So overall, what we thought the year would be in terms of an outlook of growth is generally where it's still sitting. I think the only challenge that I think everyone has today is, you know, we don't have the same backlogs we had. You know, our backlogs are back down to normalized levels, so you got to get the orders in, and you got to get them out, and, you know, you don't have a backlog to pull back on.
Kind of diving more into the segment level, fire service showed solid growth in the quarter. You cited some good funding levels globally. Now, where are the key regions or cities you're focused on over the next several years?
Yeah, so fire services, just for different backgrounds. So we have, you know, their self-contained breathing apparatus, which is a big part of the business, and then we also have all the gear a firefighter would wear as well, and some of the tools they use. You know, the funding source for that, really, broadly is either, you know, federal government level or at the local municipal level. So the number one, the good thing is, really, no matter what's going on with the economy, the funding for that is usually pretty stable. So we're certainly seeing that play out this year as well.
You know, so for example, in the beginning of the year, we've seen, actually-- w e talk about fire being kinda right in the middle of our mid-single-digit growth outlook. It's in some cases actually led that because of some of these projects. We've also had the benefits, you know, we've talked about having this Air Force order. You know, earlier this year, we had the tail end of what we got last year as an order, and then right before we went through our earnings release, we were awarded the second tier of the Air Force agreement, and as we said then, you know, we still have to work through all the final logistics of shipping and things like that, but overall, it's good to have that order.
We just don't control everything that leads to whether it ships in 3Q, 4Q, or even early in 2025 and things like that. So, we'll work through that, but again, in terms of demand environment, it's still there. And then we mentioned, because a big market for us in the U.S., that the federal funding did come out. It did come out a little bit later this year than last year. That just makes it a little bit more challenging for us to get the orders in and getting them out, on a, I'll say, the same sequence as we did last year. So but that's, you know, basically has worked out.
What was also nice there is you saw that funding, you know, basically go into release mode, but then they also announced really the renewal on a three-year basis of continuation of that funding, which is not a surprise to us, but it's also nice to have that, locked in to know we have that for the next three years as well. So, in the end, the mix also internationally, we have, European standard to navigate. We use the M1 unit for that today. That's a derivative of the G1, which is, you know, really what we launched over 10 years ago in the U.S. We're having this nice, growing momentum really each year.
We've had some really large wins that, you know, pillar cities we talk about, that's been helpful, but we've just on a more core basis, we're seeing some good momentum there. So you actually look at growth for us this year, you know, say, for example, Europe, the fire services business has been very strong because of that momentum. So again, the demand is out there, but probably as I noted earlier, we just have to navigate the timing of these things, and, we don't control that. One of the things I always say about our business is, you know, we are really, you know, long-term oriented, and never overreact to a really strong quarter, also never overreact to one that's a little bit less than the mid-single-digit growth we're looking for.
When you look at us over, you know, a six-month basis or 12-month basis, you consistently see the growth algorithm that we talk about for MSA.
so you mentioned the Air Force contract. You deliver that first tranche in the first half of this year. You know, given that you have this elevated Air Force revenue delivered in 2024, do you still expect to grow at that 3%- 5% organic revenue target for 2025?
Yes, good question. So, generally, we like to talk about this this way: so we've talked about mid-single-digit growth for MSA on a look-forward basis. When we did have our Investor Day a couple months ago, we did talk about, the wonderful thing about the Air Force agreement is to have that business. The challenge is that is a harder comp. So we did say, you know, that could trim a little bit of growth off of that CAGR on a look-forward basis because, you know, next year, you're not gonna fully comp all the Air Force.
But overall, you know, we'll have to see how the Air Force finalizes in terms of what ships this year and what becomes next year, may become less of a comp. But just overall, the dynamics with fire are good. You know, next year there will be a standard change in the U.S., so that can always have some quarterly dynamics to it. But overall, you know, you can end up with a little bit of extra orders. You're going to end up with orders a bit later as the sequence goes out. But overall, you know, the fire business has been such a key part of our growth momentum. You know, typically, it's kind of right in the middle of our mid-single-digit growth.
You know, you can get these anomalies from quarter- to- quarter, but you're still feeling good as we look forward here.
And you also talked about Europe. I think you've talked about a strengthening position there with the introduction of the M1. This trend is expected to continue, I think, over the next 24- months.
Yeah.
So just talk about the M1 product. How is it winning market share in Europe?
Yeah. Thank you. So yes, I mentioned the M1 earlier. Again, it's a derivative of the G1. It's what... You know, any part of the world that, you know, really follows more the European standard, it's the appropriate tool. So again , G1, we launched in the US. It's really led to really a nice share gain for us over the past decade; we certainly have a leading position there, and rest of the world, we did not have that same position, so it's been a really nice opportunity for us. So we launched this in the 2018 timeframe, and that's really now kind of been growing this momentum across Europe and across the parts of Asia that also follow the EN standard as well.
So, you know, the core of our business is winning, you know, the mid-size, you know, even the larger departments. So, you know, you string some of those wins together, you really build some momentum. So certainly having some of these large wins, like London, for example, a few years ago, is helpful, kind of building the momentum, like, geez, what is MSA offering in this solution here? So, you know, we've certainly been gaining share- to- date. As I noted, so far this year, really a good driver of growth is the success with M1 and but more in these kind of mid-sized departments and things like that.
You have this concept we talk about really around the globe, but when you do win these mega cities or these large cities, you know, there really can be a bit of a halo effect, because it's quite a project to run a process to decide what SCBA you want to do, so a lot of times, the larger departments do that, so if you're a mid-size or smaller department, you may, you know, you'll look to those decisions being made, so it's been helpful there. The M1 gives a nice amount of flexibility because it is configurable.
It leverages the best of the G1, but, for example, in France, if they have a unique feature set that's different than, for example, what they want in Spain, we can flex that within the system and win locally there. So, we're quite encouraged. You know, it's nice to have the share we have globally, but, still a lot of growth opportunity for us in the international markets in fire services.
I'll pause to see if there's any questions from the room. Okay. Detection, it showed the highest growth in the quarter. It was boosted by some elevated backlog. You know, what did you see from underlying demand, excluding the backlog normalization?
Yeah, so detection has been a really nice growth part of MSA for many years now. So, you know, depending on the quarter, it can be just about the same, just shy of the fire services in terms of share of MSA. But, you know, it's really benefited from some nice organic momentum, and then some of certainly our acquisitions we've done over the last several years have driven that portfolio. So, we shared at our Investor Day that detection has been our highest growth category for MSA Safety. So to see that those trends in the first half of the year aren't surprising to us.
As we look forward here, you know, we still see that as our leading growth category for the next number of years. Again, that's when we look at our next five years out, we think detection will lead here. You know, you do have some interesting dynamics that are playing out now. It's been even higher than the normal growth levels in the last couple of years. Part of that had to do with, we did build some backlog during some of the post-COVID supply chain challenges. You know, electronics were hard to come by, so we had to kind of navigate that process there. We built up a backlog. We've had some incredible success. You know, for example, this upcoming third quarter last year in Europe, we had growth of almost 30%.
So that will be a harder comp, as we go into the back half of the year, for example. But, you know, we're really encouraged. Like, just as you said, we had really good growth in the first half of the year in detection on top of growth last year. That was in some cases in the mid-teens and high 20%. So, as we pivot towards the back half of the year, I think we see probably even more strength in portable detection than fixed detection,be cause we just had some really big projects last year. But again, as you look forward, we love all the dynamics that detection brings to us.
You know, it is for us also, it's a good margin story as well, and then when you win the business in detection, it's great for that moment, but you're also building, in many cases, a relationship for the next, if in the case of portables, next three or four years, but in the case of fixed detection, you know, it's, you're building a customer for 10 years. They're going to buy, replacement parts from you, they're going to have to do calibrations, and then as they change what they do, they're going to come back to you 'cause you've really been built into their safety system. So, you know, just some good trends.
I think one of the key differentiators in detection is that you make your own sensors. So how does this provide a competitive advantage for you?
Yes, a good question, and it's definitely something we do that not everyone else does that's in this space. It goes back to our origins. So again, we've been in detection for many years, and we've chosen to design and manufacture our own sensors, and so it's some pretty more advanced things. We limit who has access to the facilities in our sites to make sure we keep control of that IP. But what it gives us is really a fit to who MSA is. I mean, MSA wants to be a leading innovation company. So y ou know, for example, in the case of sensors, it's really important that you know the speed of detection so to have the fastest detectors. It's really important not to have false alarms.
You know, so, again, false alarms lead to people ignoring warning systems. So the fact that we can offer the market, in many cases, you know, some of the best technology out there, it's, it's what we're known for. So important part of the journey to date, and that's certainly our mindset as we look forward here, that we continue to bring to the market the best sensors, and that, again, that we control that manufacturing journey by doing it ourselves and really featuring them in our, both our fixed and our portable detectors we have. And in the end, you have a compelling solution.
So, our latest on connected device, the io4, in the portable space, it has, you know, all the benefits of those wonderful sensors, but then we've also packaged it in this newest connected technology as part of our MSA+. So you really get the full value proposition, and depending on the end user, to some, that's all that's appealing to them, or maybe they lean a certain way, like the sensor technology, that helps us tremendously in the marketplace.
You know, fall protection has been another big focus for you. This product saw some continued growth in the quarter. You know, what are opportunities to continue to grow market share there?
Yeah, so that's great. So a little bit of history for on fall protection. So just, just over five years ago, in addition to the strength we had in head protection, we said we want to do even more in fall protection, and we did that. We like the market dynamics, but again, let's go back to our mission. Our mission is to make sure that people go to work each day, and they come home safe. And still today, one of the you know the leading issues on a job site in a workplace is falls. So we thought that was a natural place for us to go, to go even deeper into. And so we've really had some nice momentum there. You know, it's a business where over the last five years, we've doubled our share.
You know, still a large addressable market for us. And what we've found, not unlike a lot of our other MSA journeys, is if we bring innovation to the marketplace, we match that with really good supply chain, we have a wonderful opportunity to grow our share there. So, it's interesting. You look at that industrial PPE business, with the absence of some of the supply challenges during COVID, it's been not only a high single digit growth, the fall protection piece within industrial PPE, but it's actually been in the teens sometimes. And then post kind of the COVID and the supply chain challenges, once again, we see really strong growth, particularly in fall protection.
That's really been a driver, and again, we talked a little bit earlier about what's going on with industrial PPE. You know, that's another part of why, you know, I don't think we've seen the industrial PPE necessarily turn negative, as we have had some really good results in the fall protection business.
Do you expect book- to- bill to remain over one in the second half of the year? And at what point do you expect your backlog to be worked down to normal levels?
Yeah. So well, let's start with the backlog story. So, you know, certainly, similar to a lot of other industrials, our backlog got elevated during the kind of supply chain challenges. You know, that we, we've really focused on working through that as quickly as possible. We shared just in the most recent quarter, we think our backlog today is really back to normalized levels. I can find maybe a couple of categories where it's elevated, but it's now as a percentage of our last 12-month sale, the backlog's pretty normalized. So what that means is, you know, I think this has been a challenge for everyone.
It's been our mindset all year is to drive growth of 3% or 4% like we've done in the first half of the year. You actually have to drive orders higher than that. Because last year, that growth definitely benefited from that backlog conversion. So that's been our mindset all year, and that's still our view today. You know, we shared, you know, orders were on that trend through July. Still seeing that today through August, and that will lead to the book-to-bill turning positive. Now, it typically always turns positive, because in the third quarter, we get a lot of orders in the fire services business, and then we convert through those in the fourth quarter, and then into the first quarter.
Yeah, it will turn positive and, coming off this new base where we don't have all the noise of that backlog from the past.
So, you know, I'm a little newer to the story, and one thing that I think stood out to me was the operating margins were in the low teens% in that 2014-2015 timeframe. Now they're in the low 20% range. Can you just talk about how you drove the increase in margins over the last several years?
Yeah. So, no, thank you. Yeah, it's-- you know, obviously, we're focused on our mission of driving safety. We fuel that through innovation. But, one of the things we really have tried to bring to market as well is our business system, which started as our operating system in operations. And, as you can imagine, it's a lean-based concept. Steve, who's now our CEO, came into the organization with an ops background. He certainly brought that capability, that mindset to the organization. So I would say this, over the last ten years, to put some math on that, you know, we were in the low teens for an operating margin, and today we stand in the low twenties.
So it's, as you said, it's been some really nice progress. You know, initially, I think we were even more focused on our cost base, so you saw some really good momentum in SG&A. And then over the last several years, you've seen a nice balance in both gross margin and SG&A. And what we're doing there is, I would say, everything that you need to do with a mindset to drive your margins positive. So, you know, we certainly have built a really strong capability with our pricing team, you know, making sure we offset what's going on with the inflation environment. We've certainly done that. You know, I would point you to the COVID years, where, we didn't have to manage a gross margin shortfall.
We were able to maintain our gross margins, you know, in that challenged time, and then now, as it kind of moves more into a normalized environment, that's coming through, but also our focus on productivity, you know, at a manufacturing level, but also across the organization when you get into the SG&A functions, and then can't ignore the most important factor, which is being innovation-led. You know, innovation-led is really a if you bring innovation forward, that's valuable to the customer it's another opportunity to really, you know, I'll say, stabilize or enhance your gross margin. So, all those elements are playing into it.
What I would tell you today, though, is the organization has just rallied around that as they have been on a, you know, full global scale, but also a fully functional level. And our mindset is, you know, that's been great progress over the last decade, but we have, you know, we've spoken about most recently in our Investor Day, that we see a view that we can continue doing that going forward as well.
It's a good segue to the next question. So at your Investor Day, you're looking to expand operating margins by 30-50 basis points annually. Can you just help us understand that breakdown further? How much of this is gross margin expansion versus, leveraging OpEx?
Yeah. So this, I appreciate the question. So, yeah, so in Investor Day, we, a couple things. We actually put out there, a five-year target, which we had not done in the past, and within there was a view on what we're going to do with operating margin over the next, five years. And, the message, which really speaks to kind of the confidence and this momentum we've built here, is we think we can, we can target operating margins expanding each year about 30- 50 basis points. And, it will be a nice balance, with, between gross margin and SG&A. So again, historically, probably had a little bit of a, more of an SG&A lean, then it was a bit more of a gross margin lean, but we think there's a nice balance potential as we look forward here.
You know, within gross margin, it's certainly the same categories we just spoke about, you know, whether it's productivity, whether it's the pricing efficiency, and again, continuing to drive innovation. And then within SG&A, there's varying mix of projects. Certainly, we continue to focus on, you know, back office efficiency, driving shared services and things like that, that will come forward. And then we continually look at our footprint. You know, we've made some moves on the manufacturing level. We've made some moves in the past on the SG&A level to drive efficiency as well. But, you know, in the end, we think we target 30-50 basis points. If you look at all those categories, we're actually going after more.
But as we also like to say, we don't control the external world, so we know some things will come up. There'll probably be some FX, maybe there'll be some deflation, there'll be some inflation, but we think we're well positioned to navigate that and commit to consistent improvement.
And just building on that, you know, how do you think about price cost, inclusive of any cost reduction actions? And like, what is the typical fixed versus variable cost structure?
Yeah. So, all right. So, in terms of first question was pricing?
Yeah, price cost, yeah.
Okay, price cost. So yeah, we again, we've built some good momentum on the pricing side. Probably goes back to the tariff era, and then certainly, we've navigated that through COVID. You know, in the end, we really think price, about pricing from a value proposition perspective. You know, we're we are in many cases, coming to market with a leading solution in the safety space. And today, that solution isn't just about the features it has as a safety product, but it's also an opportunity for productivity for the end user. So whether that's on the record-keeping side or on, frankly, driving reduction in the time it takes to remain, to have a safe environment. So really, value pricing of the feature. So that's our focus.
Certainly, we have a leading position in almost all of our product categories, which allows us to navigate, you know, inflation as it comes at us. Certainly, in our outlook, we're expecting continued inflation, and we'll price accordingly, and then we'll, you know, leverage things like innovation and productivity to help drive that momentum, so you know, we're in a good place. Just like you saw this year, we've been able to offset the additional inflation with around the price increase. You know, that's, I think, the view we'll have next year as well, 'cause we still, I think we still look at our math right now and say there's gonna be inflation next year.
In terms of just flexing, in terms of fixed and variable costs, I mean, one of the things I would say is, you know, we get this question a lot. We don't have a lot of decrementals because the portfolio is very balanced, quite diverse. But when we have had, you know, a couple periods, you know, we do flex our variable costs, so like in SG&A, it's probably about 25%, be able to flex there. But we're very long-term focused. We try to protect innovation all the engineers, those are groups that usually aren't touched in any type of economic cycle. We really flex the SG&A as much as possible, but in the end, we're not--
You know, we're typically navigating, you know, an LSD-type growth number or maybe a small negative. We don't swing to the big negatives because of really the resilient nature of our portfolio. So it's one of our unique advantages is that we can continue to really be long-term oriented really on an everyday basis, even in a more challenged economic cycle.
Obviously, it's an election year in the U.S. We're asking all of our companies this. We're not asking you to pick a candidate-
Yeah.
But what are some of the policies that you look at as being really beneficial?
Yeah
Or not beneficial, you know, as you think about the company?
Yeah, so, no, I appreciate the question. Yeah, I won't give you an answer on the first part. In the safety space, certainly, you know, we have an advantage from all these different regulations that keep people safe. So we have a passion to keep people safe. So I would tell you, no matter the candidate, what side they're from, when they are on the side of worker safety, we're typically right there with them. And, you know, it pains us to, you know, we're made aware of safety issues, so anything that can do to help that, we're certainly supportive of. So, you know, I'd probably lean there.
Certainly, we've seen some good trends over the last several years, not just here in the U.S., but around the world. You know, you just have a, you know. I think this was happening even before COVID, but certainly COVID, the value of your workers and making sure you're investing in safety is helpful. So I think those regulations, whether it's that's helping drive it or frankly, just good business interest, and it's, I'm going to value my worker. Then I think as even when you look forward here, some of the other regulations coming about reporting on safety metrics and things like that, I think companies are gonna wanna show they're improving their safety metrics each and every year.
And you know, I think, like, we all know this, you won't change that unless you invest in safety. So again, whether the company's choosing to do it or the government's encouraging to do it, I think it's a win for MSA Safety.
We probably have time for one more question, from the audience.
I guess as a follow-up, on that last question: so I believe your supply chain takes advantage of low-cost country sourcing. You know, in the event that tariffs are put on that, you know, how would you guys manage through that scenario?
That's a good, good question. So, certainly we've managed the tariffs in the past, but I would tell you actually, we love to manufacture. That's our strategy. And, but we like to do it in region. So, we probably even orient ourselves more there over the last decade than we were in the past. But certainly, there's some components that we do buy that could be subject to tariffs. I mean, for us, fortunately, it would be a challenge, but it's, it'd be very manageable. If you look at the value as a percentage of our cost of goods sold, it's something, but it's, you know, it's not the dynamic that some companies have where, you know, it's going to increase their cost by 15%.
It'd be a couple points of cost increase to us, and certainly, we'd look to, you know, our pricing capability and also our productivity to mitigate that.
Perfect. I think that's probably rounding out the clock for the morning. So thanks for attending. We really appreciate it.
Thank you, Saree.