JPMorgan 49th Annual Global Technology, Media and Communications Conference

May 24, 2021

Hi, good afternoon and welcome to our 49th Annual CMC Conference. My name is Bill Peterson. I work on the semiconductor equipment research team. We're pleased to have MaxLinear's CEO, Keith Shore Sundripu and CFO and Chief Strategy Officer, Steven Litchfield. I've asked the team to spend a few minutes providing a quick overview of the company. I will then move to the fireside chat with a number of questions. In addition, please feel free to submit questions using the blue Ask a Question button under the video player and I'll do my best to incorporate them into the session. Welcome guys. Glad to have you here and I look forward to the talk. So over to you, Kishore. Thank you, Bill. It's a pleasure to be at this virtual conference from JPMorgan. Max Leer now we are in a pretty it's our 10th year as a company post our IPO. We specialize in making highly integrated radio frequency analog and mixed signal digital SoCs. Our target markets today span all markets where there are massive data bottlenecks. So what we like to say is that we solve data bottlenecks in the communication networks from the cloud, over the cloud into the home and throughout the home. By that, our markets basically enable us to take a really broadband or a fixed signal technology and solve the data bottlenecks be it inside the home or outside the home. Our first our biggest part of our revenues today are in access in connectivity and broadband access. In that basically, we do the consumer premise equipment where we receive broadband data signals, be it over cable or even fiber and distributed inside the home using WiFi, G. Hn, which is power line connectivity and MoCA, which is again broadband connectivity and distribution over coaxial cable. So a very comprehensive connectivity portfolio, probably 1 of only 2 players in the world with such a comprehensive portfolio in connectivity, which includes Ethernet. And on the access side, we have we are the only platform player that provides both the access technology, the gate tree processing technology and all the software that goes with it and provide our own silicon. 100 percent of our silicon is on the gateway CB device, so you can call it a 1 stop shop. And we have the same strategy for both cable and for fiber. Fiber is a market we have just entered. We've got some significant market design wins that will show up as great revenue growth prospects as we exit 2021 into 2022 and beyond. So we're very, very excited about that. The growth in this market area for us has come through content increase primarily where the originally, we would only provide the access piece where we received the signal, but now we do the gateway processing and the distribution as well. So our content has more than tripled since maybe 2 years ago. And on the Wi Fi Connect, we said we're very, very proud of our Wi Fi portfolio. We're 1 of 3 players with the world's most premier wave 600 product and soon Wi Fi 7 product line. That's a tri band solution but really enabling 10 gigabit type of data bandwidth distribution inside the home. And we are on the Wi Fi test bed alliance actually. So anybody who wants to read Wi Fi as a certificate of your product. The next big market we are been investing for the last 4 years is infrastructure. It constitutes primarily network infrastructure on 5 gs wireless and the other and transport. And then the other area is basically in optical and high speed interconnects for inside the data center. On the 5 gs wireless high speed network infrastructure, we do the massive MIMO radio transceivers for the 5 gs remote radio heads and active antenna systems. And we also are the only single full system solution provided by transport, wireless trans, which is basically backhaul, which involves microwave or millimeter wave transport. And optical side, we entered the market kind of late. Late is the wrong word. We were not originally it's an organic investment. We leapfrogged the PAM4 market and started investing in 400 gigabit PAM 4, 100 gigabit per single Lambda solutions, based where you get 400 gigabit, 4 lanes of optical coming inside and electrical side, electrical side, 8 lanes of 50 gigabits and together. So you have 400 gigabit of optical coming in and 400 gigabit of electrical going out. And we try to leapfrog our competition. We're in very advanced phases of qualification for a major operator, web scale operator. And we're very excited that towards the end of the year we should start shipping in this market. So and along with on the likewise, on the 5 gs side, we've got some important design wins with 3 major carrier operator OEMs. And as you all know, 5 gs has been delayed related to what the world was expecting, but we've got very strong traction. In fact, we started shipping in the first half to an OEM for a North America operator recently. We've also announced an alliance with Facebook for their Evenstar Open RAN Alliance. We would be the macro base station market and we're very excited about that. On the backhaul, wireless backhaul market, we are the world's only single system solution provider. We have strong traction, which is growing as the 5 gs rolls out because outside the U. S. Wireless is a pretty dominant transport mechanism for wireless and we have seen growth happening to that. If you really step back, 4 years ago, our infrastructure revenues were practically 0. Today, we have told to the investors in the last earnings call that we are on target to hit above $130, 000, 000 of revenues in 2021. So by any means to build infrastructure revenue in such a hard market, it's a huge testament to our team's execution capabilities and at the same time the prospects for growth in the future because 5 gs access and opticalized speech connects have barely started to take off for us. So we're really excited. The 3rd prong to our whole investment thesis as organically and inorganically is we've got a pretty nice sophisticated high performance analog market, which is primarily industrial interfaces and bridges between various serial transceivers or USB bridges and Ethernet bridges products and also encompasses our power product line. The power product line is incredibly important because on all our platforms whether it is in the wireless access and connect on the broadband access and connectivity business or in the wireless and optical infrastructure markets, There's a significant amount of power content and our idea is to own all the BOM around our products. And so the power product usually is as much of the BOM as the main transceivers. So we hope to increase our revenues through proliferation of our power products in wireless infrastructure and in the connectivity and broadband access business. So that's the overlay of our product lines. If you have any clarification, please need to ask. So let me open up the discussion for discussion right now. Okay. Yes. That was a terrific overview. Thanks for that. Of course, top of mind for all of us is right now, demand clearly seems to be exceeding supply pretty much across the board. Every semiconductor company may have different nuances and certainly you're in the same position. Can you just give us your latest update on the supply situation? It feels like really this is going to be with us at least through the remainder of this year, potentially into next year. I think you mentioned it could ease maybe later this year, but potentially go into next year. Some peers are saying that demand is exceeding supply by even like 40%. Can you help us understand that demand profile for your products? And I mean, the differences between your various segments, connectivity was held back in the Q1, Broadband appears to be held back a bit. Currently, anything notable between product lines? Great. It's a very good question, Bill. Have fantastic demand and I want to characterize our demand hopefully in a very differentiated way relative to what you're hearing about other peer group, if not even the peer group, the SelectConnect Business, you know. For us, our growth is coming hopefully, we are all smart about not counting double counting orders. Even if we we are very good about parsing through that. Our demand is coming on our broadband connectivity side through actually share gains and increasing BOM container of platforms. For us, it's really a secular growth phenomenon that we're driving on and supply in that sense is very critical because as we gain share, we don't want to lose the momentum if there are supply challenges, right? And so and the BOM expansion means that every new platform we're shipping, we're increasing our content. So the amount of silicon we need is much more as well. So that's the broadband access and connectivity portfolio direction here. And a big part of it is that for the longest time people were thinking that broadband access demand is driven from work from home with the COVID situation. That's not true at all. Our growth is coming to content increase. At the same time, we're gaining share in a major North America operator and we're getting design wins in fiber as well, which we'll start seeing the benefit of. And thirdly, I think that the broad if you look at the operator spend, everybody's announced intentions to increase their spending on the operator side because there's generally a big increase in bandwidths that our people want to consume. So we're benefiting from that. So for us, supply constraints are really around increased demand for more new products, okay? And our shortages or our demand is being crimped, our supplies is being crimped because primarily this year we have been fighting battle through on packaging side, substrates and lead frames. And we are hoping that we can ease the situation by the end of the year by bringing multiple suppliers online, lead frames and substrate packages. So, so far we have not had demand issues that are being affected by wafer supply. We've got that covered very nicely so far, right? So you never know what happens in this environment, right. So I think we feel good that towards the end of the year we'll ease the situation. Regarding backlogs, it's a very bold discussion. We have got more backlog for the next 15 months than we know what to do with, right, so to speak. But we want to make sure we shift to real demand at the endpoints and not some big not count backlog that is being provided because of lead times. It is a very different situation. Secondly, we also see a lot of new products growing and design wins in our connectivity, wireless, Wi Fi, Ethernet moving into next year that we hope we're not constrained to share, right. These are all brand new sockets. We're very excited about our connectivity also should exceed our growth projections pretty strongly if we can meet the supply because there are a lot of new OEMs who want to ship our product. So that's the broadband side. On the infrastructure side, it's really new product ramps, right? And the new product ramps always have a struggle because forecasting demand is very difficult. In the initial year, early on in the previous mindset, we would be conservative about how we place orders, right? Let's see the ramp settle in, you get some buffer and stuff. Now we have changed our tactic completely and we are ordering from a more of an annual demand perspective, trying to reserve as much capacity as we can so that we don't thwart our own brands, right? So we need to make sure so the new product brands in wireless and optical, we're being very, very careful and watchful, make sure we can ramp. So there the demand again is driven by substrate shortages, right? So we'll be constrained by that. So on our high performance analog product lines in the industrial market or otherwise, We are not limited by overly by supply constraints. We had that very much in the control in a sense that that market in general, you have a lot of inventory, right, in the channel and we've been able to meet the plan very nicely. And hopefully, we don't fall into supply constraints at all. But we are seeing some pickup in the market as well. So hopefully, we can continue to maintain our if we can solve our packaging challenges, we should be able to fulfill the demand and have some ease of supply towards the end of the year. That's our thinking right now. Okay. I guess, you mentioned you have elevated backlog. I know it's only been a few weeks since earnings, but how are lead times been trending? Are they still expanding? Are there any signs of stabilizing at this stage? Or again, it might be a little bit varying by product type? So obviously, there is some variation related to product type and what our own inventory supply chain is and things like that, right, and the package type. However, in general, across the board, the lead times have exceeded from what it was 2 months ago. But right now, I feel they've stabilized. However, the lead times are pretty long. They can range from 40 weeks to 50 odd weeks right now. So the situation right now is predicated on packaging and lead frames, right, and substrates. So we have not seen any effect of any foundry issues yet. So if that situation remains that way, we should start some easing up going on by the end of the year. But at this point, those are the lead times we're dealing with. Okay. Maybe moving on broadband and connectivity kind of grouping them together, although there's a bit different products. Obviously, you had the acquisition last year of the Intel Home Gateway products, which brought a lot of scale and kind of you're now offering kind of more complete solutions, you have Wi Fi business. But I guess just maybe for broadband, what is your current view of the let's say the transition from DOCSIS 3.0 to 3.1? I mean how much more runway do we have with the current transition? It is a lot more room for the transition to happen. I think we are hitting right now more than 50% penetration, driven primarily by in the North American markets and some Western European markets. However, there's opportunity to for 3.1 to keep growing as a share as it replaces 3.0 in the other markets over the next 2 to 3 years. And generally, my own personal experience is that you get closer to 100% over a 4 year window and we are now in the beginning of the 3rd year window. So we've crossed the 50% point in this ramp. And so I think there's some more runway left where basically it means good things in terms of ASP expansion, right? So there's some more room left here for 3.2 will be replaced by 3.1. But for us, the bigger part is that on a 3.1 platform, we have a BOEM expansion going on, right? And that's even more relevant for us. So it's going to be disproportionately more coming from the BOEM expansion than you would otherwise see from a volume growth. You discussed market share gains and this is really I guess share within your customers as well as maybe your customers market share gains. How much of your growth expectations from here are based on further share gains versus market growth that we've seen here? We are pretty much hitting the run rates of where we are typically in the cable market worldwide, right, you want to be it's a 2 player market. It's 50% plusminus5% share. We have always maintained and we fluctuate on a yearly basis. But in the previous 2 years, we had taken the hits because there were some issues for our major OEM to have qualification to major North America operator. Beyond that, I think we'll get that gainshare going in another next 2 to 3 quarters. By the end of the year, we hope that we're at that sort of equilibrium point and that's our expectation. So you got a couple of more quarters of growth left. Now with all the supply situation, everything, can we get more market share, if we can supply more product? Absolutely. But at this point, I would say we've got maybe a few more quarters maybe few to 4 quarters left for the share gain to happen. Certainly. Complete to the point, yes. Understood. And then of course, in the other markets where on the fiber side, where we have no share or little or no share, there we're going to go from maybe 2% to 3% of the market to a huge run rate per growth because we have the premier platform for the ex GPON market and a major operator is selected as North America, 1 of the premier operators And that starts to become a showcase for other operators to adopt our solution. Okay. Again, it's kind of related and you talked about BOM increases. The connectivity business, which you guys include your prior MoCA, G. HN plus newer segments such as WiFi and Ethernet. I guess, can you help us understand the relative size, the major components today? And I mean, you've obviously talked about Wi Fi potentially doubling this year, potentially doubling again next year. Trying to get a feel for the various growth outlooks for the various segments, 1st at a high level and we'll dive in a little bit further. So let me just get a word just a few words in before I ask Steve to elaborate on this. Look, all our connectivity products are growing. They're all going very, very healthily. So it's not just that 1. 1 is a bigger sized 1, but they're also when you combine the wire and they are not small either, right? So Steve, you want to take it from you? Yes, Bill. So we haven't broken out exactly all the pieces of the connectivity box there, but clearly the largest is Wi Fi. We did identify that we did on the order of $25, 000, 000 last year, expecting that to more than double this year. And then, if you sort as you mentioned on the earnings call as well, that probably potential to double again. I mean, we often this business, I mean, a couple of years ago, Quantenna was running this thing at $200, 000, 000 plus a year. And there's a clear line of sight kind of getting north of $200, 000, 000 over the next, call it, 2 to 3, 4 years here and we're getting great traction thus far with the operators. That's kind of the low hanging fruit. And then we can start to expand beyond that. Carriers and then even beyond, I'll sign that as well with the retail guys also. So that's the largest portion of it. Ethernet is a big driver as well. And then you do have the MoCA and T. Hn business that we've had for a number of years. G. Hn is a little smaller business, but MoCA is a sizable business, continues to grow. I think given the whole dynamics that we've seen over the last, call it a year, where within the home, people are really recognizing the need for MoCA, needing to increase the quality of that service within the home. There has been a lot of speculation that Wi Fi would take that, which with the Wi Fi offering, that's fine. But I think I would look at it a little differently. It's more of a level of market that you're looking for on a high level product. You're going to want the MoCA solution. And then on the low end product, you can get Wi Fi. And but importantly, most of the operators are deploying it with and so then the user has that capability. Yes, you kind of talked about earlier, currently supplying in the gateways and so forth with opportunities to expand your WiFi portfolio. Can you remind us of the content opportunities you see when for the WiFi 6 boxes and how that is even maybe even better with WiFi 6E, you have the Wave 664 series, for example, how do your content opportunities trend for Wi Fi and then of course Wi Fi 16? So, we have a range of Wi Fi SKUs and products, right? So if you really look at today, right, in a major gateway operator box, the Wi Fi 6 can be maybe between $10 to $15 I would say more closer to the $15 12 to $15 range. When Wi Fi 7 happens, tri band, it could be as high as $20 plus $20 to $25 So you can see that the connectivity product and if you include Ethernet into either MoCA into it, on any major gateway operator, if they have any of these components, you're looking at this 1 to be significantly higher than the main processor itself, the network processor itself in the gateway. So it's a huge growth opportunity. And at the same time, we are not just focused on operator gateways alone, we have actually got major design wins in significant players who are not in the operator space. For example, if you look at major players in China and so on, who where we don't sell the gateway products, but they really love our Wi Fi products. 1 of the things was when Wi Fi 6 happened, our competition did not go to they were not focused on an access point offering where you would have double the bandwidth. Traditional ones are 80 megahertz and 160 megahertz was what the access points needed. And we leapfrog to that. And as a result, there's not a very meaningful access point offering at the bandwidth in Wi Fi 6 except the MaxLinear silicon. Of course, the Wi Fi 7 will all be in the even playing field on that bandwidth side of data. However, we've got a very, very good position on the Wi Fi 6 side basically, right? And our 6C is ramping to production now. And then we are working on our Wi Fi 7 products. So there's significant gains we had in Wi Fi in terms of ASP increases. I think you roughly want to think about Visa Gateway platform, dollars 12 to $15 and then a retail platform will not have that kind of a or a mid case, they would be maybe $5 to $10 not $5 but around $10 range, right? Let's say that would be the 2 ranges you want to think about. And any subsequent generation, we can at least add ASP increases by about 50% or more. Okay? Okay. No, that's great. Another area you guys have been more vocal about it, but it was obviously 1 of the pillars you got from the Intel acquisition is Ethernet. You spoke about it a bit earlier for these same type of boxes, Wi Fi 6, laptops, industrial laptops and so forth. How much does Ethernet add in terms of content? I guess maybe collectively, what kind of attach rates are you seeing with Ethernet and really Wi Fi and what other opportunities you have beyond the gateway with Ethernet products? Look, we have a 1 to 1 attachment on our gateways with the Ethernet product, right. But we have the older generation products that are gigabit Ethernet, right, and that are on our platforms. Product, which is 2.5 gigabit Ethernet. I just want to point out that we are the world's premier 2.5 gigabit Ethernet PHY solution and find controller solution and we have a range of offerings. We have a single 2.5 gigabit PHY. We have a QUARTER PHY that's 4 of those in 1. And so we have that to be a very unique in that offering and we are by and far ahead of any of our competition with a very optimized low power silicon. And so we have a lot of design win traction outside of the gateway boxes for even the retail and other people's operator boxes, right? So 1 of the things that's happening is the laptops, other products are all going to are migrated 0.5 gigabit, right? So there's a huge momentum towards 2.5 gigabit. And the beauty of 2.5 gigabit is that it uses the same Ethernet cabling in your home and everything. You don't have to replace 2.5 gigabytes the cabling, if it has 1 to 5 gigabit or 10 gigabit, the cabling has to be completely changed. And so 29 gigabit is a sweet spot, which is just about right, where with existing cabling, whether it's enterprise or non enterprise, where it is a suite product line. So there's a huge growth opportunity in front of us. We're winning designs. It's growing very, very strongly and we'll be bringing out more products on the 2.5 gigabit side pretty soon. So I would say right now on the 200 gigabit side, pretty much we maybe the I hate to say only player, there's competition's product that need to get fixed. But if there's a 2.5 gigabit being thought about, our competition is either selling their 5 gigabit or 10 gigabit as 2.5 gigabit, which means they don't have the cost excellence to find that or we are the only product of choice right now. Okay. That's a great overview of the combined segments. Moving on to infrastructure, this really feels like it's on track to kind of deliver on the promise after we had Huawei bans last year. I mean, you're still fighting supply constraints, but your backhaul business appears to be recovering, access appears to be taken off a bit. When you look at your growth for this year, I think you said 130, 000, 000 approximately 130, 000, 000 dollars Can you break down just at a high level the main drivers? It seems like backhaul transceivers and modems are a big part of that, followed by massive MIMO transceivers and then maybe just rounding it out would be more of the business around the PAM4. But if you can kind of break down the growth between those this year, that'd be helpful. Steve, do you want to take that? Yes, sure. Yes, Bill, so you're absolutely right. The majority of that, I mean, as has been the case over the last year, the backhaul and HBA business are probably the biggest contributors in that infrastructure number. If you recall, the transceiver product for our backhaul market has been a it's a new product. We've had it designed in for about a year, year and a half now, and it's just moving to production. We saw a little bit of it last year, held back because of the Huawei ban, but we've really seen it come back last quarter came back infrastructure came back really in earnest. A lot of that was driven by backhaul demand. And I expect this new product as well as our modems will continue to drive good contribution all year long and good growth all year long in backhaul. So that is definitely the biggest. We saw a big recovery on the power side. So, several power management, something that we very much focused on, expect that to continue to show growth throughout the year. And then the 2 Italian areas, I mean PAM4 as well as the 5 gs access, we'll have nice contributors. PAM I'm sorry, well, the PAM4, I'll hit that 1 first. To your point, much more back end loaded, not a huge revenue contributor this year, but much more meaningful in 'twenty 2. But it will be nice to finally see that ramp start to happen on the PAM4 side. And then lastly, the 5 gs access piece. So 5 gs access showing good contribution, 1st product to revenue in Q1 as expected and frankly as planned for some time. And that should continue to grow throughout the year. So we'll see a bigger contribution each quarter throughout the year. And then I think in 'twenty 2, as 5 gs really gets going in earnest, particularly in North America, I think we could see more growth following that. Sure. And I guess, the wireless access, this you've called us a pretty sizable market, I believe $500, 000, 000 by 2023. Can you give us a feel for how does this progress from 4x4 all the way up to 64x64? I think you have 8x8 is on the come here. You mentioned earlier O RAN that feels like it might be a bit further out, but if you walk us through the projections out over the next few years of the access business. So I just want to point out that in the wireless access, we are not the incumbents, right? Historically, it's been ADI and TI and other discrete component makers. We shook up the market by coming with a CMOS, 14 nanometer, single chip, 4x4 transceiver, then we leap broad with 8x8 RF transceivers. In a sense, we drove the market to these new levels of integration to drive down the cost and sort of help the transition to these higher order massive MIMO configurations. But we expect that it's going to and we expect that the transition to higher order, whether it's 64x64 is going to take about 3 to 4 years to get there. Initial ones are 16x16 16 or 32 by 32, particularly because China so far has been the driver and when the U. S. Imposed export bans, obviously, we got hurt really, really bad. But beyond that, they also changed their strategy and said there are Chinese that have their own solutions 4x4 and let's stick to that and reduce the order of the MIMO to 32x32 so that they've all traded supplies internally. So the market has got a sort of got a slowdown and the China, in fact, even now is going slow as you must all be aware of it. So North America with the license purchase from AT and T and Verizon and then DISH trying to roll out on their spectrum, we should start seeing a big boost to the rollouts. Now DISH's will be lower order end deployments because they've tried to roll out a pretty basic network. And I'm assuming that Verizon and AT and T will go at it, so will T Mobile. And that will take about 3 to 4 years to play out. I would say they would start at maybe 32x32 and then head to 64x64 over the 4 year window. Now beyond that integration levels, I would say that it has to be rationale for suppliers like us to even drive that, right? So I would say that right now 8x8 is a sweet spot from a chip supply point of view. Obviously, moving forward, you could further expect further integration. Now how does it all tie into our strategy, right? Obviously, that means that moving to more advanced nodes lower the power because power is a huge part of the 5 gs problem because they don't want to bring in extra power and that's a huge cost of ownership challenges that the 5 gs players are facing. But for us, the O RAN development is a long term game plan where we want to own everything inside the remote radio unit in the macro business. If you want to be the platform, just like our gateways and why not? We have all the technology. We have the transceivers. We have the TFD technology. We already do that. And we have the gateway processor technologies. So we can put all the pieces together and be the single macro based issue remote premia unit. So for us, this is a longer term plan as the OLED happens as an alternative to the major OEMs. In Europe, there are only 2 and they want more auction, if you will, and the disaggregated system and the inter ops really become more credible, we want to be right there with our solution, right? And so for us, that's the longer term game plan is also own the entire platform in an O RAN world for the macro base stations. Okay. We're just about out of time, but I wanted to ask you about your 5 nanometer, 800 gig optical product set to sample this quarter. Help us understand, obviously, you're looking to lead product competition at this stage, but help us understand when you expect the products to ramp? This 2022 or is this really something down a few years down the road? So, well, you wait for next week and we may have something to share, right? The OFC is around the corner. So obviously, we are seeing some exciting results right now. So let's hold it there, right? So we feel very, very good. And I really don't see this is about us catching up and leapfrogging the competition we have in the comprehensive portfolio right now. But the big growth is going to come from 400 gig standalone solutions, right? And the 800 gig will be the successor product. If you really look at the market, right, today, the hyperscale deployments are pretty fragmented. You have Google and Facebook doing 200 gig products and then Amazon wanting to do 400 gig products. Now, so there's a dichotomy there and Microsoft sort of behind there, right? But they've all agreed that they're all converging on a 400 gig or 800 gig platform in the next generation of switches. And so you should expect that after the 2 to 3 year window, right? You'll have products ready next year and then probably the ramp happens always later than you think, let's say by 23 and 24 beginning, right? And so what is the difference here between why all of them are agreed upon? So today, if you look at the world, it's 200 gig optical in for Google and Facebook and it's 200 gig electrical out. So 4 lanes of 50 gigabit, 4 lanes of 50 gigabit on electrical and 400 gigabit. And the Amazon configuration is 4 lanes of 100 gigabit optical, 8 lanes of 50 gigabit, right? So that's 400 in. All of these guys considered the 100 gigabit electrical lane as a sweet spot, basically 4x100 coming in, 4x100 going out or 8x100 coming in, 8x100 going out. So the whole world will be harmonized just like 10 gigabit. 100 gigabit will be the sweetest interconnect speed for almost another 10 years to come maybe beyond. Just like 10 gigabit has been the driver, the whole world will converge to the platform. That's the great thrust of our 5 nanometer investment is to have the best solution for a market where this is going to be the mainstay of the world for a long, long time to come. And today, with the consolidation, everything and where we are, we can actually be seen in a very, very good position to be a major player in this market. That's a terrific overview. So many more questions I could go to. Unfortunately, we're out of time. We look forward to monitoring the progress here of your various product cycles and growth opportunities. And thanks for joining our conference. Really appreciate it. Thank you very much and you're welcome. Look forward to talking to you guys again. Bye. Bye.