So welcome back to our fireside chat with Nomad Foods. With me today are CEO Stéfan Descheemaeker and newly appointed CFO Ruben Baldew. Welcome, gentlemen, and it's truly great to be back here in Boston with you. Stéfan and Ruben have some prepared remarks to start us off, and then with time permitting, we've got a little Q&A at the end. So Stéfan, over to you.
Thank you very much, Andrew, and by the way, over the years, I think the way you pronounce my name is becoming fantastic.
Thank you.
Well done. Well done. So good afternoon to all of us. By definition, as some of you may know the story, but I think it's worth reminding, you know, what this story is all about. So it's a story of, let me see. Should I... There we are. It's really a story of a pure play. We are frozen food leader. We are the European leader. We are number two, together with Unilever. When you're taking into account frozen food only, we are by far the number one. We like this story. We like the fact that we are focused. Focus is a word that you're going to hear a lot of times today. So yeah, the fact is, when you think about what we've been doing, we know this category better than anyone.
We have everything dating back nineteen thirty, actually nineteen twenty-four, when Clarence Birdseye invented the category, actually. Well, when our people, when all the people are starting to move to diversification and growth, actually, what we decided single, in a focused way, we like this category, that this category has a lot to offer, and we believe- Oh, thank you very much. Yes. What we want to do is we need to consolidate further this category. We've been able to now, in the last few years, to go to Eastern Europe at attractive multiples, and we're going to keep it that way, so that we're not going to deviate. We like this one. We like focus, and again, I think that's what we're doing best.
We could have the choice to become some sort of food conglomerate. We have decided not to go that way and to really move to what the things we know best. Now, if we think about what we do, we're bringing to the equation, the first thing we're bringing is market share, brand advantage. Our all brands, well, you know one in the U.S., which is Birds Eye, which is brand number one in the U.K. I can tell you the other brands, like Iglo in Germany or Findus in Italy or France or in the Nordics or in Spain, well, they're number one brand in their countries.
Even country brand that you probably never have heard of, like, like Ledo or, or Frikom in, in, in Serbia, they are by far the number one. They're super brands, I would put it that way. So that's the big thing for us. So we have exceptionally strong market share. We, and even beyond this, what we're trying to do is also to focus behind the subcategories that really matter. And you see that, for example, what we call the must-win battles, key categories in our different countries, where the average market share is 45%. So we like it. We like, we know that with market share comes, you know, market gross margin and all the rest of it. At the same time, what we also have is, let's say, on top of the quantity, the quality of the brands.
All brands, in terms of awareness, in terms of brand equity, in terms of preference, they, they're the number one. Between 2012 and 2013 of the key countries, they're all number one. So it's really a remarkable advantage, and we want to keep it that way and to reinvest, obviously, behind these brands. The second one is people advantage. Well, forget about the guy on the top. But beside that, you know, I think what we've been doing is we really have single-mindedly focused a lot of my time behind selecting the best and brightest people, but not only individually, but also collectively.
What I've seen is, right now, what we have is really. I can say after nine years of experience as a CEO, I really believe that the combination of collective strength and individual strength. I have the team, the best team I've ever had within Nomad. We have our new CFO, Ruben Baldew. He's with me today, and Ruben joined us from Accell Group, where he worked with KKR to make the company private. Before that, he spent 17 years of his life with Unilever, different countries, different jobs, and all these things, all obviously very much close to operations, to finance of financial operations, but beyond this. Well, I can say the only thing I can say is, Ruben has been with us for 10 weeks now. You told me this today. Time flies.
And well, he's bringing, you know, a lot of new ideas. He's a great team player, and well, he's very hands-on, which is really a piece that is very important for us. You know, we like to have people that not only have a brain, but also have obviously something that makes a difference, and he does. The rest of my team, again, same thing, a lot of changes, as you can see, but it's really a combination of new hires when there was a shortfall of skills, of mindset, and sometimes also people that have really gone up through the ranks and files of the organization. We'll just invite you to see two names. Steve Challouma, he's been a veteran of Iglo and Birds Eye.
Steven Libermann, August 2024, you may say, "Oh, my God, he's just started." He has a lot of experience with Findus over the last 20 years... So a lot of experience, a lot of combination of new minds, but also obviously existing skills, and, well, that's the kind of things we're trying to do. The rest of the team, let's say the top 80, over the last two years, three years, we have, let's say, changed around, two dozen of people. Again, same mindset. What can we bring? It's a never-ending story, and I think it's really working. So that's a big advantage. That's the second part of the advantage, beside the brand, is the quality of the people.
The third pillar is the category, and that might sound, well, from the American standards, "Well, are you sure frozen food is a, is a great category?" I would just invite you to think the way it's working in the U.S. and the way it's working in Europe. The U.S. is mostly about ready meals and pizza, and as you can see, 2/3 of our business is about protein and vegetables, 2/3 . So it's a big difference. It's fish, it's poultry, it's vegetable, so definitely good food. And on top of that, if you're adding one thing is, basically 93% of our business is generated from product deemed healthy in the government's, the U.K. government's nutrient profile model, as they are not high in fat, sugar, and salt.
The combination of the 93% and this 2/3, well, I think it's a reasonably good proxy for good food. On top of that, you know, on top of being, of having healthy food and secular trends, we also we also know that frozen food is convenient. It saves consumer time. That's one thing. Second, it's also important in terms of its value for money. It's, it's surprisingly enough, you know, compared to other chilled experience, in that it's 2-3 EUR less per meal, so that's a big difference. And it's obviously a big difference in terms of, well, the inflation has been a big hit for all of us, for consumers, and so being able to serve good food at the right price is absolutely fundamental. And on top of that, you have sustainability.
We have an extremely strong, naturally, a very strong sustainability plan. We're coming, obviously, waste is a big thing, not only for us, not only for the consumers, but also for the retailers. When you think about, you know, the way, the real margin after waste compared to chilled or to fresh, is much better. And on top of that, for them, it's also a great way to face, let's say, the sustainability profile of the company vis-a-vis NGO and vis-a-vis the governments. So that's why, by the way, what we've seen is they're starting to invest, you know, in the frozen food, in the frozen aisle. And we've seen more and more of these examples of retailers starting to invest for cost reasons, where every time they're refurbishing one of their stores.
But also on top of that, you know, obviously it's improving consumer experience. What you see on the left is the kind of things that some retailers are considering right now. You know, Morrisons, which is one of the biggest, you know, retailers in the U.K., and they're considering, they're piloting, actually, right now, series of stores where they're going to increase the temperature from - 18 to - 15. Which is really something we initiated one year and a half ago, where we tried different temperature between - 18, which was always the golden standard in frozen food. And we said, "Okay, fine. Should it be the golden standard, or should it be minus nine, - 12, - 15?
We come up with the conclusion with our product that - 15 is great, and with - 15, you're saving 10% of energy, and you're saving 10% of carbon, so it's a great thing, and that's why, you know, we believe that, you know, retailers have a good reason to invest behind the category. On top of that, it's also a question of perception. We believe that it's, frozen food is only about planning. Actually, it's not. You know, it's something which works well in terms of impulse. It's expendable as such, and when you compare with other non-prepared meal categories, we're doing well. That's exactly what the slide is showing here.
With all this, what we've seen is, again, when you compare food in Europe vis-a-vis frozen food, over the last 10 years, frozen food is outpacing food, and it's not finished. We can see that in 2024, we still have the same situation. We also believe that it's there to stay and even further, for a variety of reasons. One is, I think the retailer, as we said, you know, is starting to realize that there is value for them, you know, for a variety of reasons with frozen food. A lot of secular trends that we were talking about, and also some of the catch up, you know, between U.S., as you can see on the left, and the other countries, U.K., but also obviously some of the countries like Bosnia and Serbia.
So a lot of all the countries where we're present. So we see a lot of potential for all these reasons. So that's a bit the background. Now, how about our plans? Well, we're starting with the left-hand side, which is, for those who know us, it's been the bread and butter of our organization, which is the must-win battles. So as we said, we're focusing not on 100% of our business, but definitely on the best and brightest, let's say, categories, where we have the highest market share, the highest gross margin, and the highest growth potential. That's the left-hand side of the business.
Just to give you an example, 24, 25 of these must-win battles today represent more than 50% of our business in terms of sales and obviously more in terms of margin. What is new for us is what we've added since then, which is a growth platform, which is the kind of things like, well, for example, we're doing extremely well in the UK with poultry, and we have nothing in Germany. We believe that we have the brands, we have the equity to get there, and we have the products as well. That's exactly what we're doing right now, which is all these categories, growth platforms, our platform, categories where, which are accretive from the growth margin standpoint, and we're going to invest A&P behind it.
So the combination of both, plus, obviously, the savings at the supply chain level, means that we can have a self-financing pro, let's say, model, where we're going to obviously invest behind the business. Business is going to go to net sales and on and on and on, with obviously the right margin. With that, you know, it's also, well, something new for us, which is a 360 approach for all our products, all our categories, all our SKUs, which is basically our new commercial flywheel. I give you really some examples in terms of must-win battles, in terms of partnering with the retailers. What I will do now is we elaborate a bit, you know, behind our innovation, which is part of this plan, obviously.
So we spent quite some time over the last two years to really develop something which would be more consumer-driven. I don't think we were consumer-driven enough in terms of innovation. We've taken advantage of the last two years, where basically innovation was on the downer with the retailers because price was the only thing, so we developed the model. We've come up with five different pillars. Three are focused on the existing core, two are focused on the future core. And, we're really dealing with that in a sprint model, so we're going faster, and we're really starting to see the first results right now as we speak, actually, during H2 and even further in Q3 and even further, Q4. So what it does is, and it's only the beginning, so between 2023 and 2024, we were accelerating the model.
As I said, it's accelerating really right now, Q3, Q4. We think we're going to be close to 5% at the end of the year, and we believe that there is more to come with the model. What we like, on top of that, is the risk profile of the innovation model. Because when you think about example, like, poultry in Italy, well, it's an innovation in this country for us, definitely, but it's based on an existing success in the UK. And so the risk profile for us is much lower than something starting from scratch. So we like it, we like the combination, we like the portfolio. We can do better, but it's the combination is really working well for us.
On top of that, you know, we also last year we increased A&P by 14%, and it really started, let's say, at the end of Q3, Q4, and we keep it that way. We think we're going to be around 4% this year, and definitely we want to invest more in 2025 and beyond. Sorry. That's in terms of investment, but at the same time, what we also have seen is that we're just spending smarter. So our market research team has built many new capabilities in recent years, one of which is around media mix modeling. And so we have obviously, like many people, don't get me wrong, we're moving away from TV only to digital.
The difference, though, is when, well, over the last two years, we moved from 80% to 60%. This is very different from one country to another country, because that's Europe. If you think you're going to invest, let's say, 50% or 60% in digital in Bosnia, I think you're wrong. So in these countries, it's still something like 80%, 70% in TV. While in the Nordics, for example, in Scandinavia, well, it might be something like 60% already in digital. So we have this approach, which is we hate average, especially in all our countries, and so we're really trying to have the right data to make the right decision in the right country.
At the same time, what we see is, well, we see the improvement in media ROI, so in all the big countries like Germany, like UK, or like Italy. When I started this conversation with you, I made the example, I came with the example of a poultry business. This is a good example. It's an example coming from success in the UK. So over the last five years, our business has roughly doubled in the UK from EUR 170 million to EUR 300 million, with the right margin, right products, the right brand, obviously. With that, we think, okay, we have country number two, which is Italy, country number three is Germany. And we think we have what it takes with the right adaptation.
We're taking the UK products, the English products, and we're adapting them, you know, to local taste, Italian taste, and German taste. Obviously, we're not going to do that in all the countries, but these are the three big countries, and now we're starting. We just started early this year with Italy. As you can see, it's a model where the market is not very big at this stage, but over the last twelve weeks, we've increased our market share by five hundred basis points, and it's going to be really about increasing market share, but also developing the market, building the market. It's very much a chilled market at this stage, and we believe that, you know, we have what it takes.
We've seen this, you know, in many situations in Italy, where in frozen fish, for example, you know, it has developed, you know, and we've been able to develop, you know, the category over the years. In Germany, where we're just starting now, it's a different model. It's a very big market, as you can see, close to EUR 800 million, but it's very much in the hands of private label. So what we want to do, and what we're going to do, is we are coming with products that are just better, taste better, more healthy, at an affordable price.
It's a different model, where the ambition is to take market share away from private label, and again, with the right assets, the right products, and definitely with product superiority at an affordable price. The other example is fish and potatoes. We're using fish to grow potatoes. It's called fish and chips, basically. It's simple. It's really about. We have an example. We did it in France. We took the product four years ago from the UK, and it has become a really, I mean, it's been a blockbuster in the UK. In France, it's a great product, and now we're adding, obviously, the chips.
So this year, for example, in the UK, where fish product or fish assortment is very big, we didn't have any meaningful, let's say, potatoes or chips. We're building them both together, and obviously, on the same brand, and, definitely that bundling them together is a great model. So again, a lower level of innovation in terms of risk, but definitely very efficient. So we have a lot of examples like this. We have examples in Eastern Europe, where, you know, people in this country were very much focused on natural veg, vegetables, and the natural fish, which is fine, but obviously low margin. So we're coming with coated fish, we're coming with prepared vegetables. We're losing part of the rest, but definitely we grow, we're developing a new category at a much higher level.
We're doing the same in terms of snacking in Nordics, taking the examples of France, for example. We're doing this, and we're really taking full advantage of the richness of the countries from one country to another. That will be my final slide before giving it all, bringing it back to Ruben, is it's working. We said, you know, that we were going to increase volume. We lost volume. We moved from - 2, - 13 to - 8, to - 2, to + 1.6 in quarter two, ahead of time. Within the, let's say, the + 1.6, must-win battles are doing better, so it's, which is great in terms of margin, and we're going to continue that way.
With that, you know, I will give the word to, to Ruben.
Thank you very much, Stéfan. Can everybody hear me? Think so. It's great to be here for the first time, and, Andrew, thanks for pronouncing my name already well the first time, so, no learning curve there. If you go, and I can click to the next slide. So you've heard about Stéfan, where do we play, what are our must-win battles, how are we going to drive growth, and that we already see the recovery now from -2% to +2% in volume growth. If you look at our 2024 guidance, total revenue guidance is between 3% and 4%, and within that, we know that our comparator H2, where H1 was last year, around 8%, H2, we have a softer comparator with around 2%.
In that H2 growth, the growth will be more skewed into quarter four, which is more linked to the timing and phasing of some of our launches and some of our promotions. Because, as Stéfan said, we will drive the growth through our more profitable must-win battles, the EBITDA growth will be higher, between 4% and 6% growth. And this, in combination with the fact that we're doing share buybacks, will lead to an adjusted EPS of EUR 1.75-EUR 1.80, and in dollars, $1.94-$2, which is around 9%-12% growth. And we expect to continue our strong free cash flow conversion between 90% and 95%. That 2024 target is in line with our long-term target of 3%-4%. And you've seen the chart which Stéfan showed about the category growth.
Frozen food in Europe, over the last 10 years, have grown almost 3%, 2.9%. If you couple that with the fact that within that category, 2/3 of our portfolio is in fish, vegetables, and poultry, actually, by holding share in these categories, we should be already able to drive the 3%-4%. Couple that then with what Stéfan just said, our brands, our flywheel, how we are going to drive the growth platforms, like with poultry and fish and veg, this is why we're now at 3%-4% revenue growth also for the long term. Again, we will continue to drive profit through our more profitable must-win battles.
As you've seen in quarter two, we drove efficiencies through efficiencies, we drove savings through efficiencies in our factories, in our logistic warehouses, so EBITDA 5%-7%. By leveraging also the rest of the P&L, EPS will be 7%-9%. Cash flow, as this year, will continue to be 90-95. Now, I just said the 3-4. If you look at that from a category growth, our portfolio position and how we play in there, we feel comfortable with the 3-4%. We also feel comfortable if you look at the historical numbers. We, Stéfan, because I just joined, but Nomad has already been delivering this. It's 6%, it's actually between 6% and 7%, has been the historical growth year on year of our revenue.
And actually, within that, roughly half of that was organic growth. So again, we emphasize the fact that the guidance we already have been delivering on that. Adjusted EBITDA, 7%, and adjusted EPS, you see a bit in 2023 with high interest costs, but you see the trend of 10%. It's not only the track record of delivering the P&L, the growth in EBITDA and EPS, but also how that has translated into cash. So between 2017 and 2023, we have delivered EUR 1.8 billion of free cash flow. There were, if you look at the years 2021, 2022, given the crisis with the high inflation, there was a need to have more buffer in terms of working capital. But you see the other years, especially last year, is we have been hovering between a kind of 250 and 350.
So around three hundred million has been, in normal years, the underlying free cash flow. If you look at the targets we just displayed, actually, that would translate for the next three years into one billion of free cash flow, which is one third of our market cap at the current exchange rate. Now, if you look at that free cash flow historically, how have we deployed that? Between 2018 and 2021, we've done M&A, accretive M&A. If we look at the businesses acquired, like Goodfella's Pizza, Aunt Bessie's, Findus in Switzerland, but also more recently, the business in Eastern Europe, with both a frozen food business, savory business, as well as an ice cream business. In aggregate, those businesses, those acquisitions, have over-delivered on our internal expectations.
In recent years, we've shifted from an M&A to cash delivery directly to shareholders, either in terms of, share buyback or in terms of a cash dividend. And you see what we've done in the recent years with the dividend also having a 3% yield. Now, summing it all up, you've heard Stéfan talking about where we are positioned, the category we play in, an healthy category, an healthy portfolio, how we will continue to drive growth with our growth platforms. If you then see how that translates into revenue growth, but also profitable growth with the EPS, and then the free cash flow conversion, I hope you agree with us that we think there's an exciting journey ahead of us in terms of long-term value creation. And with that, I hand over to Andrew.
Perfect.
Thank you.
Great. Thank you. Thank you, Stéfan. And thank you, Stéfan, and thank you, Ruben. We got about 10 minutes left for some Q&A.
Good, yeah.
Maybe starting off, Stéfan, GLP-1s have been topical. Plenty of debate on what it may mean for the food industry. Can you share your view on this and the potential implications for your portfolio, which as you talk about, is more focused on sort of nutrition and protein as well?
Well, let me, let me first focus on, on Ozempic or GLP-1. Obviously, it's still very new. We had a lot of different predictions, by the way, starting with the CEO of Walmart, if my memory is right. What we have, we haven't seen any real meaningful impact for us, but in all fairness, it's still very new in the U.S., and it's even more new in, because it's more recent in our country, in our countries. Still, the only thing I end up seeing is something from Morgan Stanley that says: Well, you know, people are going to... The intake, the food intake is going to be materially lower with three exceptions. One is plant protein, second is poultry and fish, and third is vegetable.
Let me remind you, 2/3 of our business is between vegetables, let's say, poultry and fish. We see this more as a positive than a negative. But I think it would be great to have even a, you know, let me stand back for a second. I think Ozempic is only one manifestation of something which is becoming bigger and bigger for me-
Yeah
... which is the debate around food, the quality of food, good food versus bad food. And it's a very serious debate. It's about obesity, it's about health. It's big in this country, it's getting bigger in our countries as well in Europe. And so, well, the first thing is, I don't think that, I haven't seen anybody, you know, becoming obese with vegetables, well, tell me. And I think between Ozempic, you know, good food, bad food, well, I think we have, we have a great job to perform. That's why I like this this category so much, that I like the way we are positioned. And I think this debate is going to take place. It's going to be about taxation at some stage as well. It's going to be about Ozempic.
It's going to be about people, you know, taking consideration their health, and we have between our 2/3 and also our low level of fat, sugar, and salt. We definitely believe that we are extremely well positioned, and I love it.
Yeah. I know you've been upgrading your ERP system and moving to SAP HANA. I believe the changeover is happening in one of your major UK plants this quarter.
Yes.
Can you update us on how that's progressing?
It's overall, it's moving well. As you know, I mean, the ERP implementation is always, you know, an interesting endeavor.
Mm-hmm.
But we've prepared ourselves the right way. We've, as we expected, you know, what we did is we've loaded, you know, the retailers so that we have to make sure that, you know, they're going to have the right level of inventories before starting, because basically what you're doing, you unplug a factory for a few weeks, and obviously, that's why, you know, you need to make sure that the people are going to be really quick. We're moving well. At the same time, we also have decided for us to make sure that there won't be any problem, bumps in the road with the consumers, to reschedule some of the, let's say, the.
Promotions.
The promotions between Q3 and Q4, and that's, I think, that was the right thing to do for the consumer sale.
Ruben, the presentation was very much focused on how you intend to drive revenue growth. But while you mentioned it briefly, there was little on productivity. I guess, as the new CFO, can you talk about what you have seen since you joined, in regards to the cost savings pipeline and what we should expect going forward?
Yeah, so as I said, I think this company has made great progress, both in terms of organic growth as well in terms of M&A, creative M&A. You've seen the acquisitions there, still on the screen. So very much in buy and build. I think what we've done very well is per factory, really doing optimization with kind of via Kaizen programs. But also we have to be clear that if you look at the pricing that had to be taken, and you see that in our annual report, volumes have gone down in some of our factories. With the M&A, we had some more factories in our total network. So we do think that in total, there's a potential for higher logistics, higher factories, to look at further savings.
That, for us, links with our flywheel. Because we, as you've seen in quarter two, we've had savings in our factories and logistics, and we will reinvest that. We can reinvest, and we've done part, big part of that in A&P, in behind our brands. If we see opportunities for some surgical investments on the shop floor, we will do that. With that, we will continue then to drive volume growth and drive more efficiencies in our factories and have the flywheel. We do see opportunities there.
Great. Stéfan, no, no real mention of the Eastern European business that you acquired a few years ago. Can you talk briefly about how that business has done since you acquired it, and how it's performing more recently?
I can tell you, we didn't want to hide anything, because we're very pleased with what's happening there. We are ahead of the plan, that's very clear. We've generated, you know, an ice cream business, so that's why I don't want to demonize, you know, good food versus bad food. It's doing extremely well. On top of that, you know, what we expected, which was to move from basically, you know, natural fish, natural veg, to something which is more sophisticated with a higher margin, is doing well. The team are doing extremely well, so it's really a great acquisition. Hopefully, it's the first one in Eastern Europe, and then others will come.
Great. Much more emphasis on innovation as a driver of growth-
Yes
... from you of late. Can you discuss what changes you've made, whether it be people, process, what have you, to build this pipeline?
People-wise, I came to the conclusion that we are probably a bit too much product-driven as opposed to consumer-driven. So it's been a bit of a... And then, that's the first piece. So we've changed some people. I think it's more marketing-driven first. Definitely, it's more so outside in than it used to be. And, as we said, you know, we're also becoming very pragmatic, and we've been able to link this innovation with these growth platforms, so as to make sure that between launching something new, but also something which is well-known for us, is going to work. And then also, the point of coming with, you know, two strong pillars for the future, three pillars for us, I can see in real terms, it's working well.
Little by little, this innovation mindset is starting to really take that fraction in within the company.
Great. Great to hear about the success driving revenue in your Eastern European Adriatics cluster. Can you talk about profitability there? In emerging markets, typically margin diluted for most companies. Is that true for you as well?
The answer is no. Quite the contrary. So it's really accretive. It's accretive less on the frozen food side, but definitely at the ice cream side, especially the impulse side. It's a kind of nice margin. But you need to understand that we also have a very interesting DSD model. We have 120,000 freezers across the region, and that helps.
Thoughts on capital allocation? It's been a few years now since you did a deal.
Yeah.
Is this a renewed priority for you going forward? Obviously, it's been an anomalous couple of years, and the focus, I think, rightfully so, is on returning more of that cash to shareholders, particularly with where the stock was. But thoughts on M&A going forward, opportunity, how the pipeline looks, maybe more recently, as opposed to the last couple of years?
I will start and then please, Ruben, complement it. Yeah, the pipeline is still full, by the way, and I think there is a reason it's full, because some of these guys, you know, they still, you know, think that they can extract something like 12x EBITDA.
Mm-hmm.
And, we're trading at eight. So when you're trading at 10, and we're buying something at 10, you know that, well, that's at least what we've seen, and we've been able to extract two points of multiple. With 12, 12 versus eight, well, the best acquisition is our stocks.
Yeah. Yeah.
Couldn't agree more. So, that's it. And I think in parallel, what we continue to work on-
Yeah
... is explaining why we play in strong categories with strong secular trends, then deliver, and once we have a higher multiple, yeah, then you can look at M&A again.
But-
But until that-
Yeah
... we stay focused on what we're doing.
Perfect.
And there are some, you know, but-
Mm-hmm
... again, you don't, I don't think we want to be passionate about deals for the sake of deals.
Yeah. Good. All right. Well, first of all, thank you for a lot of new content in the slides today, actually. So that was really interesting to take a look at.
Yeah.
And thanks for your help on that, Jason. Please join us in the breakout for further questions, and we really appreciate you being here, Stéfan and Ruben.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.