Good morning, everyone. I'm Eric Serrota from Morgan Stanley's Beverages, Tobacco, and Household Products team, and I'm very pleased to welcome Philip Morris International back to Morgan Stanley's Global Consumer and Retail Conference. Before we begin, please see the Morgan Stanley Research website at www.morganstanley.com/researchdisclosures for important disclosures, and if you have any questions, you can reach out to your MS sales rep. PMI is a leading global tobacco company which is actively driving the transition to reduced-risk, smoke-free products. Its smoke-free products are now available in over 100 markets globally and account for over 40% of PMI's sales, adding creative margins to its legacy cigarette business. Joining us today is CEO Jacek Olczak. Jacek, thank you for being here.
Always a pleasure.
I'm going to turn it over to Jacek for a couple of big-picture comments, and then we'll get into some Q&A.
Yeah, the small-picture comment is that we just, a couple of hours ago, issued the press release reaffirming our guidance from Q3. Now, big picture, yes, we are present now with 100-plus markets, but importantly, in 30-plus markets, we have more than one proposition of a smoke-free product. I think one of the key questions that investors, but many other audiences also, would like to know: which of these product platforms will prevail, or which one is going to take it all? Is it the heat-not-burn with our flagship IQOS? Is it the pouches with ZYN? Or is it the e-vapor product?
I actually think that from a smoker's perspective, target audience and all smokers' perspective, you actually need to have all three platforms because all of these three platforms are delivering different usage occasions for smokers, and in aggregate, they offer them this almost, you know, giving them no reasons to stay with smoking, actually further incentivizing them to quit and move to the new proposition. I mean, the pouches, as you know, can be used in a very discrete manner. They have a different nicotine release, different nicotine profile. E-vapor is more of the path on the demand, of smoking on the demand. IQOS is replicating as much as possible, obviously, the ritual of smoking.
If you look at what is happening at the smoker levels, and we have run a number of tests, and actually this is the backbone of our commercialization philosophy today, our objective is to equip the smoker with all three platforms because this is the best way to keep them away from smoking. There is obviously also an element that the sum of the parts of the consumption moments during a day is higher than the individual basis. Because remember, smokers are in many places in the world, including very much this market, the U.S. market, for many decades have been thrown into the corner, kicked out of the bars, kicked out of the offices, and despite the fact that they pay extremely high price for the habit, I mean, they're not really treated by the society. There's a lot of ostracism, a lot of finger-pointing, et cetera.
I think smokers are actually regaining that freedom, and each of these products offers them something. Net-net, what you see in the markets when smoke-free products are available, cigarette sales accelerate its decline, and this is, to me, something which is essentially a one-way street. I mean, very rarely we see smokers coming back from smoke-free products to smoking. It only will happen if you have temporary setbacks in terms of some adverse regulatory interventions, sometimes not really based on the science and the fact, and very quickly the flow of the demand from smokers, adult smokers, to the smoke-free product is very strong. The smoke-free product will grow somewhere in the double digit or around 10% on a global basis.
I mean, if Philip Morris' growth of a smoke-free product will be somewhere in the range 10-12%, so we are by a notch or two notches above the industry trend, and we see the different accelerations, the accelerations across the different categories. We have carried with us all the positive elements of the past tobacco model in a sense of strong prices, brand loyalty, high gross margins, and high bottom margins, still with the room to improve, which we have demonstrated especially over the last few years.
If you consider the demand which is coming from smokers and say there are a billion-plus smokers in the world, differently distributed in different geographies, and where the smoke-free category stays today, still early days of the smoke-free categories, despite the fact that you already see not only volume but also financial results coming from those who strongly participate in this category. We have also carried with us the strong cash conversion, which was one of the characteristics of the tobacco industry in the past. The business model, if you like, from an investment perspective, is very much similar, but with the one difference: you have a different volume output. At Philip Morris, in particular, we are now about to close our fifth year in a row with the total positive volumes of smoke-free products offsetting, more than offsetting, declines on the cigarette market.
You still have a number of geographies which the products, for a variety of very much irrational reasons, are not open, and they are like, you know, big, big cherries on the cake which is in front of Philip Morris International in the industry. Because if I take the markets like India, Vietnam, Turkey, and a few others, and just focus on the markets which are about 100-plus billion units cigarette sales, which at a certain moment will and should be converted into the smoke-free product, you have quite the room for growth. This is the high-level picture. Eric, back to you.
Great. Good overview. Let's start with US ZYN, 6-7% of revenue, but clearly an outsized driver of your multiple in the stock. You know, starting off, you know, going back to the third quarter, you know, did the $100 million investment to jump-start the commercial engine, did that have the impact that you expected to drive trial? You know, how has your retail takeaway volumes been trending versus your expectations, you know, as we've moved into October, November, and sort of gotten past that discrete investment?
This was a hard landing from a helicopter view to the quarter, $100 million appreciate. Is that, look, ZYN had, as many of you, I guess, know, I mean, ZYN was in a permanent out-of-stock or under-supply situation for about the fourth quarter. We obviously took a lot of adjustments in terms of the spend behind the brand. There was no point activating many of the programs if you could not supply the market. That situation is going to resolve a little bit faster than we initially thought, which is good in the sense that we ramp up the capacity faster and could start fulfilling all the orders earlier than initially we anticipated in a year. Now, what has happened in the Q3, we essentially gave the brand all the different elements of a marketing mix.
I know that everyone is focused on price promotions and especially the, you know, one kind of ZYN-free for purchase of any tobacco products. There was like a culmination, a concentration, maybe it's a better word, of all the activities in the one quarter, and I think we've been very clear, transparent, the earnings release after Q3 that this is not something which, you know, we should, one should expect going forward. Having said so, brand of a ZYN of its magnitude obviously deserves a variety of the support, and we will not stay shy in standing behind the brand and supporting this.
If you look at what has happened in the Q3 and the, okay, Q4 is still in the making, but if you look at the sequential evolution of the offtakes, et cetera, yes, obviously you had an acceleration of the ZYN volumes, but the sequential growth continued. Category summary grows, US pouches grow somewhere in the range of 30%. ZYN is presumably taking today 50-plus % of the growth of the category, despite the fact that the ZYN commands a much higher price than the main competitors of our product in the market, which is good for us. There will be support going on for ZYN, but I would not look into this Q3 as something which is to become a normal or, you know, frequently repeated, et cetera.
There was a silence for ZYN for a long period of time, and the moment when we felt very comfortable with, you know, increasing the shipments, et cetera, we just put a lot of marketing, including price promotional effort behind the brand. One thing which came as a positive surprise in terms of the frequency of the consumer response, how much equity parameters of ZYN has shot up very shortly after the Q3 acceleration of the marketing spend, because we knew that this is not just about the price and the rewarding existing, but also incentivizing the new consumers to join the category, to join the brand.
You know, in my history, when I saw the brand which is increasing its equity parameters, so it's beyond just the price by the, you know, double-digit number in a short period of time, it reconfirmed that the silent period around the ZYN when we have not done much, when we've been in the supply-constrained situations, was actually the right way to do. Because it's not just the price, it is about talking about the brands. Brands all of a sudden are being visible at the retail, but not only, and this is what the consumers of a premium proposition like ZYN, which is our positioning of the brand, expect from the brand.
Not to harp on price too much, but, you know, you did call out back in September that, you know, ZYN was at about a 60-65% premium on a per-pouch basis to the leading competitor, and a short-term goal of sort of volume share stabilization. You know, is holding volume share still the shorter-term goal, and are your price gaps today, which are probably in the 30s, right?
Yeah, maybe talk about the price gaps and the target price gaps in the public for obvious reasons, but look, ZYN was, is, and will be the, you know, the premium proposition in the market. Obviously, there was a moment at the beginning of the year, maybe towards the end of previous year, that, you know, in a short situation, retailers tend to price the product up, and competitions were accelerating the, you know, the presence in the market and also were supporting this with some pricing activities. The price gap tends to go higher than it normally should be. If I look at the evolutions where we are today, I do not think it is anything special.
Again, if category grows 30-something %, around 30%, if the ZYN captures strong 50-plus % of the category growth despite the fact that we have that pricing in the market, I do not think I should be that much worried. We have a few, what is very important is how quickly we will have a response or action taken by FDA with regards to the couple of still pending important PMTAs, which will further complement the portfolio lineup of the brand, both in terms of the nicotine strength and the formulation, maybe a few flavors.
As you know, the FDA has made the commitment that there are new PMTAs which they want to put on a fast track, and initially I think their promise was that we should hear from them before the year end, because we're still before the year end, but I think somewhere in 2026 in the next year, we should see some additions to the portfolio, to the brand, which will further support the growth.
As you take a step back, you know, nicotine pouches, Modern Oral, it's 6-7% share in the US today of total tobacco on a spend basis in track channels. You know, where do you think that can go and over what timeframe?
Yeah, this is, by the way, the, I guess the pouch category is in, but the pouch category is the fastest-growing category, I believe, in the many channels today, ahead of the energy drinks and many others. There is robust growth, and I don't see today, okay, that I look very, you know, positively into 2026, right, which of the strengths in terms of the category growth as in performance kind of will continue for the next year. We're not in a guidance, you know, recession for the next year, but the outlook looks, you know, looks positive.
Also, what gives me the reason for being positive that I know many people have noticed, this one is the first time in the history of various regulatory bodies in the U.S., but not only, let's stay with the focus on the U.S., that I haven't heard anything disturbing with regards to the conversations around the nicotine, unlike it was in the past. I mean, you will remember there was some controversy earned under the modern around the vape. There was the whole controversy around the valley and who was, you know, which product should be blamed for what and which products were blamed.
If I look at the alignment from the health secretary about going very much for the FDA, including the Office of Tobacco, et cetera, there's actually a desire to straighten the conversations around the nicotine, because a lot of harm in terms of equipping adult smokers with the ability to make the right decisions has been done by the old misinformation which is around the nicotine. This administration, at least on the health side, I mean, it's pretty clear in their views, and there is a strong science, you know, very well, it's not the nicotine which causes the problems caused by smoking. Yes, it is addictive. Yes, it is a, you know, stimulant works on a certain cognitive skills, et cetera.
You know, the substance deserves the normal conversations and not the conversations which are borrowed from 20 or 30 years ago when the only product in consumption was the combustible cigarette. That is another important element that I wish obviously this translated into faster turnaround at FDA in terms of processing the application, but I believe it is more, you know, the process itself is pretty heavy and, you know, many administrations can be lost in this process. If I look at the mindset, what is the thinking, et cetera, it is further support that there is quite a room to grow, quite a lot of room to grow. You mentioned pouches are not even the double digit of the total nicotine in the U.S. Okay, speaking for ZYN, how about ZYN?
The ZYN sources initially sourced a lot from the oral tobacco, more traditional oral tobacco, but very quickly start sourcing from the E-Vapor and start sourcing obviously from a cigarette. Okay, it depends on the timeframe in which you measure this whole thing, but the rule of thumb is like one-third is coming from each of these main nicotine categories in the market, and this is what supports the growth, and I believe this thing's going to stay. E-vapor product, and I know that E-Vapor product has quite a lot of challenges on the regulatory side and what is the legal, illegal market, but the most important is there is the demand for these products. I believe category is going to stay. There is a demand, growing demand for the oral product pouches, and it's going to continue, and it's going to stay.
Okay, we're also waiting for, you know, one day, hopefully next year, we'll bring a heat-not-burn with IQOS to the U.S. territory, then all three boxes will be ticked in the sense that U.S. will be brought to the full multi-category smoker proposition for smokers.
Great. I'll come back to IQOS in the U.S., but, you know, moving on from ZYN, you know, to the other 94% of your business, you know, starting with the international IQOS, you know, your guidance is 10%-12% HTU IMS volumes this year in terms of growth, realizing you aren't giving guidance yet for next year, but could you discuss the puts and takes for IQOS volume growth next year? You know, you have the characterizing flavor ban in Poland, excise tax equalization in Japan, some competitive activity there.
Okay, we're repeating again that, you know, IQOS, heat-not-burn category, we're very much IQOS, which is a lion's share of the category, and it's holding its share. It's in the 11 consecutive years of the growth. Some of you may remember there was some slowdown of the growth in Japan many years ago, and some people were immediately predicting this is the end of the heat-not-burn. This is the end of the heat-not-burn. If you look at it from today's perspective, it was just the blip on the graph. There is a growing demand despite the fact that there are price increases. There's also some excise, tax-driven price increases, also manufacturers' price increases, and a variety of the different regulatory frameworks in which these products can reach the adult smokers. Some are much more open.
The communication with adult smokers can be more broad or deeper, take Japan. They're, you know, half of the market. I think this year Japan will turn the mark of a 50% combustible products volume, not value, and 50% smoke-free products. Yeah, so at the level of a 50%, Japan seems that they're going to implement the stage type of tax increases with the closing the gap, equalization of the smoke-free products taxation to CC. There will be, as per the latest version of the plan, about two, well, not about, two tax interventions on the heated tobacco in 2026, and then goes in the multi-year price, sorry, tax changes for a CC and a heated tobacco in the next three years, 2027, 2028, and 2029, I believe.
Now, the magnitude is that for IQOS, which occupies the higher end of the price ladder, actually is on the top of a price ladder, the TEREA would have a pass on somewhere in the range of JPY 40. Sentia, which is our second proposition under the IQOS umbrella, is about JPY 60, and the rest of the market is in the JPY 100 territory. As you see, there will be a lot of pressure assuming that, you know, this is a pass-on type of a scenario to roll this free in the market in, you know, one or more steps. I do not want to go into the detail. Obviously, we will have some impact in 2026 on the volume evolution in Japan, but I would take a little bit broader or longer view of what is going to happen.
There is a continuous growth of a category in IQOS, and this is also despite very intense competition in terms of the new products coming into the market from our two major competitors, right, in the Japanese market. There is also quite a strong or very aggressive price competition, but, you know, IQOS holds the share and they participate fully in the growth of the category. Yes, we'll have that sort of a headwind coming from Japan. We'll still have a few months to fine-tune the details, how we're going to play it, what the market, the consumer response is going to be. Look, we went with IQOS, heat-not-burn with IQOS for the flavor ban in most of the European Union countries. The last countries which we have in front of us is Poland.
You remember in Italy, we had a couple of quarters of a slowdown growth. If you look at the growth of Italy today post the ban, post the flavor ban implementation, it's like just another blip which happened in the past, and the story continues. We had some adverse tax events in Germany this year, which we had to manage for the pricing, and the Germany IQOS keep on growing. You always will have, look, the same things are happening on a vape category that, you know, different countries are coming with some regulatory or tax and regulatory ideas. If I look at the longer period of any of the smoke-free category, we only have one conclusion. They can slow you down on a quarter. It doesn't change the trajectory or the direction of a longer-term growth.
I believe for Philip Morris in particular, but I believe also for the industry, it's a good problem to have.
Great. So.
Was supposed to sound optimistic.
Looking around the world and, you know, leaving aside the U.S. for a moment and leaving aside some of the markets that you mentioned, like the Vietnams and Indias where heated tobacco isn't authorized, you know, where do you see the greatest opportunity for IQOS over the next, you know, three to five years or five to ten years? You know, looking back, you know, Iluma rollout was a major driver of smoker conversion, you know, real step change in user experience. I guess what are the drivers of the next leg of growth for IQOS internationally?
You may remember when we started the whole journey with IQOS 10, 11 years ago, the first model was called, actually the market never saw that model, was 2.0. Then we went to the market with 2.4, 2.4 Plus, 3.0, 3.something, 4.0. Now we're in the 4.1. I guess there are the reasons when we put these material numbers, if you like, there will be IQOS, there will be next IQOS in the market. I mean, there is still the room of innovation. You're also tapping to these audiences which may be more conservative or more attached to cigarettes, so you need to design the product slightly different. IQOS ILUMA, as you remember, was the step change in their user experience. You know, you get rid of the blade and all the associated challenges, cleaning, breakage, et cetera. You go to the seamless experience.
I think that's going to stay, but there is the room for the innovation. I don't think we should be assuming that. I know the ideal scenario would be that what is the next mile? Can we produce the same product for another 50 years and enjoying the attractive economics? The way we look at this is the category still serves us very well so far, but the category is still at the very early stages. There are still vastly more smokers out there than those who have converted to this product. You know, there is a learning curve on our side, but there's also a technology, et cetera, which allows you to improve further the user experience, make the products better, et cetera, and address still some unmet or unsatisfied needs at the consumer level.
IQOS five years from now will be looking different, and I may not know exactly what it is, but I'm also thinking that, you know, 10 years from now, pouches will look different. There are innovations which are supported by the attractiveness of the category, by the growing demand. Obviously, people have, consumers have their own individual type of expectations. I think there is room for innovations going beyond the flavors, which we also know that on occasions may trigger some unintended consequences in terms of a usage profile underage, but I believe there is quite a discipline in execution from a marketing perspective not to trigger this undesired type of a situation, but there is still room for innovations. We are well equipped. I mean, we have been on the front foot of innovations around the heat-not-burn.
The innovation is not just on the product level, but the whole ecosystem or model which we have behind it. The integrations between a digital brand retail, we've never been in a brand retail. We own the majority of the relations with the consumers, maybe not the transactions, but there was never a desire, and it serves very well that every time we go now to the market with another proposition either from IQOS or P4 or, sorry, electronic cigarettes or the pouches, we're somehow benefiting from everything which we have installed already before, very much on the back of IQOS. As you mentioned at the very beginning, we have 100 plus markets in which the smoke-free products are present. It gives you quite the room to play.
Great. Then, you know, turning back to the U.S., how are you framing the potential for IQOS ILUMA, you know, once it's authorized? You know, huge market, 28 million smokers, you know, also a large E-Vapor market, but a lot of poly use, you know, is 10% share in five years from launch still, you know, how you think about the targets? Then, you know, are there any learnings from the IQOS 3.0?
Look, we, yes, I volunteered that number, but it's not that I, you know, pick up any number. If I look where most of the international markets were in the year five, whatever of penetration of IQOS, this is, my view, is a very attainable number. Now, you can add to this that the US will start with the latest version of IQOS. International markets were going, had the history of the blade and, you know, early problems of the device and the usability of the proposition. This should further enforce that that sort of a number is attainable. Now, look, even here, when IQOS is not sold, the US is not in isolation. People travel and there is quite a few IQOS users, at least judging who is walking on the streets here. The awareness of the product is there.
The starting point is much better as you would really open the U.S. as a green market, right, a greenfield market that nothing has been done. Now, we have, we're contacting as we speak some tiny commercial operations or tests on the previous versions on IQOS, which we would rather go and switch to the latest version because it completely allows us to deploy the different commercialization model, less labor and also financially less intensive than the supporting previous versions of IQOS. You know, judging how people react, I'm very positive. There is definitely a room for the proposition like IQOS in the U.S. market.
Great. You know, zooming back out to the group level, you have a powerful margin tailwind from smoke-free growing faster than combustibles. Within that, you know, ZYN growing faster than IQOS. You have also spoken about, you know, PMI being very early in the journey of optimizing the cost structure for IQOS. We have also seen some more normalization in margins for ZYN with, as you said, some of the promotional levels normalizing. You know, taking all these moving pieces together, you know, how do you frame the margin improvement potential, you know, for PMI over the next few years? You know, can you really start to get at the IQOS cost efficiencies while you are still really driving growth worldwide?
On the gross margin level, okay, then obviously where all the economies of scale in terms of manufacturing, et cetera, presence in a number of markets, et cetera, kick in. I mean, as the smoke-free products are offering you by not even better margins than the cigarettes, and we know that the cigarettes had very strong margins. Now, there are different drivers of the room for growth, Bob Wetherbee CC, which is more the combustible cigarettes, sorry, which is more driven by the pricing. And this pricing remains strong, and you saw within our results we are a significant contributor to the growth of a combustible from a financial perspective of the combustible category. The smoke-free products, we position them all in the upper parts of the market.
We are definitely taking advantage of the premium underlying great margins amplified by the fact that you're in a premium part of this market. It's the case of, excuse me, IQOS, but also our electronic cigarettes ZYN we discussed. And there is the room to grow because, you know, ZYN in the US is at scale. Yes, it's a tiny category, but already you can play it, you can leverage the scale in terms of capacity, et cetera. Electronic cigarettes are coming to the same level, and IQOS just continue to enjoy its scale. Net-net, I believe there is room for a growth of the combustible cigarettes margin. There's definitely the room to grow on the margins on SFP. And when I mean the margins, I don't only focus on the gross margin, but also what stays in operating income level.
If you see this year and the past year, despite the fact that there was a, you know, continuous investment behind the R&D and the commercial support, et cetera, you still have room to grow the market. Okay, sometimes you can accelerate that growth. It depends on the timing of the event, opening the markets and some marketing initiatives. Very positive on the margins. We had the periods of going back to ZYN right in the US that obviously if you scale back the marketing, commercial elements, promotional authority support, obviously your margins will shoot up higher. That's not the level which normally the brand should have. Once you normalize, I think there is room for growth of the margin. Pricing is very strong. We're taking pricing on smoke-free products. Obviously we're taking a pricing on combustible, as everyone knows. I believe that's going to stay.
Great. With third quarter results, you announced a new organizational structure, two business units, US and international, three reporting segments, international smokefree, the combustibles, and then the US. What's the rationale behind this and, you know, what do you see as the expected benefits of the new structure?
That is the way as we, us and as a management and us as the board, with the board, looking at the business and our conversations about the international US and our conversations about the smokefree and SCC. We somehow have that structure which we designed in 2008, right, when we left the US at that time. The regional structure, frankly speaking, this region for us, which is a reputable segment, we did not really run the business like this, but it created a lot of work to be done. I believe anybody talked of the investors' engagement. I do not remember when was the last time I got to my CFO or our CFO got the questions about the specific region. Questions are US, Japan, Germany, Italy. This is where the P&L, this is where the business is. That level of consolidation was not really important to anybody.
We clarified the structure. Now, if you look at the history of Philip Morris International, our longer history, we're essentially coming back to the structure that when we were with the US before 2008. You remember you had the Philip Morris USA, Philip Morris International, at the time was a Kraft and Miller Brewing Company and a few other units. You had this corporate type of relay, which was with some central functions, which are providing services to both parts of the business. We just wanted to clarify from a governance, et cetera, and the way the management looks, perspective, the design, because otherwise we would have to take a US reporting to international, which also spent quite a lot of time talking with some other companies which have a similar type of setups.
I believe keeping US and international somehow at the parallel level and letting them, it's the one company, but let them run this business is not only more efficient, it's actually more effective.
In a couple of minutes we have left, maybe we could talk a bit about capital allocation priorities from here. You know, you're well on the way to getting back to your two times leverage target post Swedish Match and the IQOS US rights acquisitions. You know, do you foresee any sizable M&A opportunities? Are there any portfolio or capability gaps that, you know, would be easier to fill inorganically?
I mean, most of our growth is based for the organic growth. Obviously, there was a Swedish Match acquisition, but still in the totality of the smoke-free, this all came from organic. I mean, will it continue? I mean, in the future, we'll tell. I mean, from a capital allocation is, okay, the leveraging of the company post the acquisition of Swedish Match is well on its progressing on target with $11.5 billion cash flow target for this year. I think we're coming into the desired level of the leverage, which is 2.2, around the 2 for the next year. We have said that at this moment we'll be looking with the board what to do in a sense.
I mean, you know our views on the dividend and the last increase of the dividend was reconfirmation how Philip Morris strongly thinks about rewarding the shareholders for the dividend, dividend growth. Obviously, absent other allocations, we'll have conversations with the board what are the other potential ways of returning cash to shareholders. This is not a CapEx, you know, when we talk about the investments behind the smoke-free products and continuous growth, double digit and ZYN US, but, you know, the whole business on a global basis, this is we're not running a very CapEx intensive business. For us to, from time to time, add extra capacity, you're talking, you know, investment in a range of a few hundred, couple hundred, few hundred million dollars. From a totality of a cash generation capacity of PMI, this is not really that much of a disturbing factor.
Great. In the last few seconds that we have, I just want to wrap up. Are there any parts of the PMI story that you think are sort of misunderstood by investors here?
No, I mean, look, this is all smoke-free products at the very beginning in a sense. Yes, there is some longer or shorter history. I just ask that, you know, the natural desire to like extrapolate for what it is. The reality is that, you know, as I said at the beginning, I have more than a billion smokers on a global basis and in each of the countries, even in Japan, which is so well progressed with the heated tobacco, there is still a lot of smokers out there. That's the one thing. This supports the continuous strong demand for the smoke-free products.
The second thing is I believe the words in terms of the conversations around this category, smoke-free products and the nicotine from, you know, regulatory type of the risk, I think that this is more behind us than in front of us because, you know, the people who have smokers who have adopted these products, I mean, they have their own observations that they know that these products did the job for them, tremendous job for them. They managed to quit smoking. There is a more and more mature type of conversations around the nicotine, which I believe it all goes in the right direction. Actually the last second, there was one of your predecessors, which I remember, David Adelman.
Yeah.
He was new.
Big shoes to fill there.
Big shoes. Sometimes you have the audience have a free time on a weekend or whatever to read. There was an interview with David Adelman from 2005, which I think was titled Forbes or Fortune, one of those. Okay. Title was Marlboro Man. The way he predicted what the industry can be, I do not think he should be called analyst. He was closer to fortune teller. Thank you.
Great. Thanks so much, Jacek. With that, we'll wrap up here.
Thank you.