All right. Good morning, and welcome again to JP Morgan's 54th Annual Technology Media and Communications Conference. My name is Harlan Sur. I'm the Semiconductor and Semiconductor Capital Equipment Analyst for the firm. Very pleased to have Dave Goeckeler, Chief Executive Officer and Chairman, Luis Visoso, Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer of SanDisk, here with us this morning. As we're all witnessing, storage technology is a critical part of unlocking the full potential of AI, especially as the frontier model builders are now focused on monetization and therefore significant unlock of inferencing-based workloads, which are definitely more memory and storage intensive. In the edge and client devices and consumer applications, more and more intelligence, real-time responsiveness also translates into more storage demand as well. SanDisk is at the forefront of delivering these high-performance flash-based storage solutions to all of these markets.
Dave is going to kick us off with some opening comments, a quick review of the March quarter results, June quarter guidance, then we'll kick off to Q&A. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us this morning. Dave let me turn it over to you.
All right, Harlan. Thank you. We're very happy to be here. I think Luis is going to get us kicked off with a few statements, and we'll go from there.
Yeah. Thank you for being here. We will be making forward-looking statements in today's discussions based on management's current assumptions and expectations, including with respect to our technology and product portfolio, our business plans and performance, our capital allocation priorities, market trends and opportunities, and our future financial results. These forward-looking statements are subject to risks and uncertainties. We assume no obligation to update these statements. Please refer to our annual report on Form 10-K, our quarterly reports on Form 10-Q, and our other filings with the SEC for more information on the risks and uncertainties that could cause actual resources to defer materially from expectations. We will also be making references to non-GAAP financials, and our reconciliation of GAAP to non-GAAP results can be found on the investor relations section of our website.
All right. Thanks, Luis. Harlan, again, it's great to be here. Just a few opening comments. It's a very dynamic time in the business.
Absolutely.
It's a lot of fun stuff going on. Look, we're a technology business. I think it always starts with the technology. The portfolio is just in great shape. BiCS8 is an unbelievable technology node. We've talked a lot about that in the past. I think everybody knows we've been very focused on our data center business. We have a great consumer business, great edge business. We've been focused on really driving a product strategy in data center. I think this quarter, we saw over 200% sequential growth in our data center business, 25% of our mix. I think we still expect that to grow going forward, but I think we're getting a really solid.
portfolio across the board at this point. Obviously, the demand situation is very dynamic, I think one of the most interesting thing that's going on in the business right now is it gives us the opportunity to change the business model. I think this is a business that's been a very transactional business in the past. That's led to a lot of dynamics of a volatile business. We're at a point now where we can start to change those practices with our customers. I think everybody's a winner in that process, and it's a lot of fun to go through it. We made some very big strides in the last quarter that I'm sure we'll talk about here today.
Yeah, absolutely. That's a great segue into my first question, because you talked about all of the transformational dynamics that are happening in the flash memory segment of the market. It reminds me, interestingly enough, of another segment of the storage market. Obviously, Dave, you were a part of that as well. I'm going to rewind back a couple of years, because it was under your leadership at Western Digital, powerhouse and hard disk drive-based storage, flash-based storage, which is now the SanDisk franchise as we know it today. The dynamics that the team was seeing in its HDD franchise 2024, 2025 time period is exactly what SanDisk has been seeing over the past 12 months.
Back then, you were seeing an HDD market that was becoming more dominated by data center and AI compute, customers that appreciated the technology and performance leadership in nearline drives, and a strong exabyte demand profile, 20%, 30% per year type CAGR that was accelerating within a structurally constrained supply environment. Under your tenure, you drove the build to order model with your HDD customers. You drove the initial multi-quarter customer agreements, which then more formalized under multi-year agreements, which looks very similar to the agreements you're locking in with your customers today with your flash-based customers. Your customers get multi-year predictability and assurance of supply, and in return, SanDisk gets predictability on the demand curve and financials.
Is much of what SanDisk and the team is architecting today via your new business model, NBM, multi-year agreements, was that a page taken out of the HDD playbook, which has proven to be so successful in the HDD industry today and was kind of spearheaded by you and the team back a couple of years ago?
I think we're taking some pages out of a lot of playbooks. I think it's really about really understanding your business, what the value drivers are, how your customers use your technology. Really getting business models aligned where it's best for sustained investment, sustained value delivery, and customers get the sustained benefit of your products.
on an ongoing basis. The markets are similar in the fact that really being focused on how you supply those markets and being careful about really understanding supply dynamics and don't oversupply the market is going to lead to better economics and better consistent business. The agreement, the NAND business is a little bit different than the HDD business. HDD business is a great business. I love those years. That's right. I think the changes we made, I think the companies are doing great. Absolutely. I think it's very well-managed companies with tremendous technology and great futures. It starts with that. The technology is extraordinarily important. Right. I think we build a technology that is extraordinarily important for the world. I think the NAND industry, that is a very broad set of customers, across devices, across consumer, across the cloud.
There's a lot of diversity in our customer base, a lot of demand drivers. I think that makes it a really great business. I think the technology is spectacular. I think in the NAND business, we have this huge advantage in that our technology is extraordinarily scalable. We can deliver enormous amounts of incremental supply through R&D and productivity gains. Yes. It's not just adding more capacity all the time. What this is really about is, one, getting a fair return for that technology and that investment. Again, it's a big investment. We don't just invest in the IP side of it, of building the NAND nodes. We also invest in the CapEx side of it, of having the production. We really have everything.
From defining the NAND itself, the fundamental node, to manufacturing that, to have the systems teams who are building the SSDs, having the back end, all of it. As a franchise, we own all of that, and we've built that over the last 20, 25 years. In the current environment, we're always thinking about how do we align our business model with our customer's business model, and how do we get those aligned? That's going to lead to better economics for both of us. Right. In the NAND industry, what I argue, that these models have not been very well aligned. Our business model, Luis and I constantly are making decisions on investing on a 10-year time horizon. Yeah. When you build a fab, you need to get a return from it for a very long time.
The market has been traditionally a market where the economics are determined on a quarterly basis. A lot of volatility. That leads to, somebody always feels like they're not getting what they deserve in that equation. Either the economics aren't really attractive enough to drive this long-term investment, or people feel like, "There's not enough product for me to do everything I want to do to run my business." Right. We think very deeply about that, like, how do we get these business models aligned? That's really what these new business models are all about. That's why we called them NBM agreements . Is about how do we get our business model, which is an unnatural thing, I think, for our customers. . We invest for the long- term. We're investing for growth. We're investing for mid to high teens growth. That means we run a fab.
Every single day, there's more wafers than the day before. There's more wafers tomorrow, there's more bits tomorrow than there was yesterday. That's true every single day. We have to sell those every single day. You build this huge asset, you turn it on, the idea is you don't want to turn it off. It's very expensive to turn it off. That's not necessarily our customer's business model . They don't really think about, "Hey, how do I consume on a very predictable basis? How do I consume where I grow all the time?" The way the market has worked that out in the past is say, "Well, every quarter we'll just decide what the price is." Then we'll have this clearing price, then you get all this volatility. Then you get all this cyclicality.
What we're trying to do is really three things, I think, is running a technology franchise. Number one, we're trying to get a fair return for our products . That's always the number one thing when you run a technology business. You want to get a fair return for what you've built. Last quarter, we drove 78.4% gross margin. We guided for slightly higher than that. I think we can say we're in an attractive neighborhood, as my friend Luis would say. That's attractive return. Number two, we want to get rid of the cyclicality, or at least dampen the cyclicality. That's right. At least when the cyclicality comes, have different techniques to deal with it than we have in the past. A traditional way to deal with the cyclicality is I've got to turn my inventory into cash because I need cash to run my business.
We want to get out of that model. What are we doing? We're strengthening our balance sheet. We're building cash reserves. We're putting contracts in place where when that moment happens, if it happens, there's a financial benefit to us, and it's not just we're wondering what to do in that moment. Get a fair return for your product, deal with the cyclicality, and then the third thing in any scale technology franchise, you need to grow. I think all of you here, that's what you want. You want to invest in growing businesses. Those are fun. I think one of the big advantages of our business is it's going to grow. That's not the debate. The debate is how fast it's going to grow. Well, the issue is depending on how fast you grow it, the other two get all out of whack.
It's how do you balance these three things? That's what we're doing with these new business models. It's a little different than other markets. We take pages out of those markets, right? Both Luis and I have run a lot of software businesses, quite frankly. Have run a lot of high scale recurring revenue software business. We take lessons out of those. Those are very attractive models. Right? They get a slightly different multiple than we do today. We're taking pages out of all of those and constructing a business model for our business with the technology franchise we have. That technology franchise is spectacular. It's important to almost every other technology that's built in the world. It's very scalable. It's difficult to do.
We have a lot of expertise, and we're putting a business model around that aligns better with our customers so we can get those two things aligned, and we have more visibility to not just demand, but economics of those demand. That demand is growing .
We're doing that in a way where we can balance that equation. We get the right economics, we deal with the cyclicality, which has traditionally been extremely corrosive to the industry, in my perspective. I won't speak for the industry, I'll speak for our business. Been extremely corrosive to our business. We want to grow. We want to do all three of those things, and we're balancing that equation, and I think these business models that we're putting in place do exactly that. It's extremely exciting because I think the place we're going to, and we're on that journey. We haven't been on it for very long, but it's rapidly changing, and that's a lot of fun. We're in a business that's been around for a very long time.
It's a very big business, and we're able to change the business model in a way where our customers are very happy with these agreements, right? Because they want predictability of supply.
Right.
We're very happy because we want to supply. That's the business we're in. They want to buy NAND, and turns out we want to produce NAND.
Yeah.
That's a great marriage. The issue is how do we get the business model in place that allows us both to do that and both to be happy? I think we have a very willing partner that's going down t hat path with us in defining those models.
That's perfect. We'll discuss more about the New Business Model transformation. I want to rewind back last year to your February Analyst Day. The team, the industry was still in the midst of a somewhat oversupplied environment in NAND. I clearly remember this. You put a stake in the ground at the Analyst Day and articulated a demand profile that would rise above supply. The inflection would happen. You said the inflection is going to happen in the second half of 2025 and continue to be undersupplied through 2026, and kudos to you and the team and the crystal ball for nailing this supply-demand inflection, right? Your team always does a great job of understanding the demand drivers and the industry supply dynamics, integrating some of the New Business Model constructs that you just talked about.
Putting on that same cap, putting on the crystal ball, leveraging your team, how does the team seem to see the supply-demand environment as we move through 2027?
First of all, thank you for the kind remarks. We do a tremendous amount of work. We're in the market every day. There's a lot of people that observe this market, and I have a lot of respect for people that are trying to observe this market and draw conclusions. I can say it's very hard to do. We're in the market, so we think we have unique insights, and we talk to our customers, and we understand the dynamics, and we build our own supply-demand models. You're right. In February when we got on stage and launched the company, we had a very clear point of view that the market was going to inflect in the second half of the year. You could say there might have been some skepticism of that afterwards.
Right.
That was fine. We had our conviction, and we went off and executed it. We still have this same level of conviction. We see this market undersupplied for a long period of time. It's a very dynamic market now. At that point, we said through the end of 2026 because frankly, that's the visibility we had.
Right.
At that point, it was February of 2025 th rough the end of 2026 was a long time away.
That's right.
In this market, but we had conviction through that, and I think we can say through the end of 2027, we have that same level of conviction now. What we're going to do is use that period to, one, produce tremendous products. Stay focused on delivering tremendous products. That's always the number one thing we need to do.
Right.
If you don't do that, you can't do any of the rest of it. Also use that period to kind of get these business models aligned with our customers so that we can predictably drive this business forward for our mutual benefit for a long period of time.
The new business model, multi-year agreements with customers, clearly the centerpiece or a strong part of the strategic transformation of the company since spinning out. You've signed five multi-year supply partnerships with what you've described as committed supply for customers, committed financials for the SanDisk team, backed by firm financial guarantees. The longest contract is five years. More importantly, you've said over 1/3 of fiscal 2027 bits are now covered under these firm customer commitments. First, can you just walk us through the conversation that you have that unfolds, right? The practical mechanics. How do these NBM conversations unfold? What's the typical customer journey from first conversation to signed contract? Typically, how long does it take to wrap something like this up?
Yeah. The conversations have been a win-win kind of relationship with our customers. Most cases, our customers are approaching us. The single first thing they say is, "How can you ensure there will be supply?" It's not a price it's like, first of all, "Can you guarantee supply?" Those conversations, they take time, right? Because you're not buying something for a year, for a quarter.
That's right.
There is huge amount of money involved. We go through a lengthy conversation to really understand their needs, and the conversations start with how many years of commitment are you willing to make? Some customers are more comfortable committing to three years, some are more comfortable committing to five. Some have less visibility and willing to start small. Most of these conversations are, "Hey, we want to go longer, we just don't have that visibility at this point in time.
Right.
The second conversation is how many bits are you willing to buy? Normally what we see is the procurement teams are being a little bit more cautious than what they are hearing from their engineering teams.
Yeah.
We go through these negotiations, and an important feature we want is we want to better with strategic and winning customers. We define that by customers that are growing faster than the bits that we're producing, so faster than the mid-teens, and therefore they will be taking a higher percentage of our business. The conversation is about price. We're not talking about current prices, we're talking about what is the price that we think makes sense for us, and what price makes sense for them. As we've talked in the shorter term, we define those prices mostly fixed, and as you go out into the future, there are some variable components. Think about mostly a floor and ceiling concept in which this floor is attractive for us, and the ceiling obviously would be even more attractive.
That's right.
The reason we do that is because prices will fluctuate.
That's right.
We don't know in which direction they'll be in five years, and one of us is going to be unhappy if we fix the price. If the price goes higher, we would be unhappy because we would have left money on the table. If the prices go lower, our customers will be unhappy.
Yeah.
We want to make sure that each of us can capture some of that volatility. Not all of it, because we're signing a contract and we don't want that 100% volatility, but we can capture some of t hat value. The last component is we need to make sure that if the customer, for some reason, walks away, there is a financial guarantee where we are in a very good position. We've been negotiating financial instruments through which it's very clearly defined that if they walk away, the funds will flow through us. The funds are either with us or with a third-party financial institution, and the criteria has been predetermined. Think about as a prenup, although I hate that concept.
Yeah, right.
Just it's an easy way to understand it.
That's right.
It's just set at the very beginning. No lawsuits, no discussions. It's just very simple procedure.
That makes a lot of sense. No, appreciate the framework and how the team thinks about it. As of the earnings call in late April, you had five NBMs committed to the first three that you signed in the March quarter, have a total lifetime contracted value of $42 billion. Has the team signed more NBMs since earnings? Of the total or cumulative NBMs that you've now signed, what is the total lifetime contracted value and/or percentage of bits that are covered as you think about your shipment profile in fiscal 2027?
Yeah. We'll give you an update in a few weeks when we report, or a month and a half when we report our earnings. It's a little bit premature at this point. We just had our earnings call. As we mentioned, we're in active negotiations with additional customers.
Yes.
We're in conversations across different end markets, and we will give you an update soon.
If you look across your NBM engagements, signed or in discussions, are you seeing an interest level across your data center, edge/client business, consumer customers? In other words, breadth of customers by end market, is that there? When you're not signing an NBM with customer who comes to the table, what's the typical reason? Is there any concern that those customers reduce their relationship with SanDisk over time as you preferentially allocate to your NBM partners?
Yeah. If you think about the three end markets, this new business model really does not apply to consumer, to what we call consumer.
Okay.
That's a different type of business. We love that business. We're committed to it. We'll continue to drive it. These new business models really don't apply there. We are in active conversations across the other two end markets, and we believe that's the case. You're asking me a very difficult question, which is what are the causes where a new business model has failed?
Correct.
I'll tell you that hasn't been the case. No, we close the deals we've closed, and we're in active conversations in all the conversations we've started, and we'll give you an update when we have more news to share.
Let me make a few comments on that. We think it's very important. We think long-term value creation in this franchise, diversity is a big part of it. Optionality. We're not going to exit any markets to favor other markets. We want customers across our whole portfolio.
Yes.
We have a great consumer business. We talked about that. We have a great edge business, device business, right? Very large share there. We have just tremendous innovation over the years.
Yeah.
We want demand in those markets to keep those products world-class, and we've talked a lot about data center and our products. We now have world-class products, and demand is driven for those. Across these agreements, our desire would be to have different time frames, because you don't want everything ending at the same time. You want diversity, portfolio theory. You want different end markets, because that keeps the engine running inside the company. We're going to construct that portfolio. Right? We'll go back to those customers and extend them or whatever we need to do. Now, there are a set of customers that are not ready to opt into this model. That's fine. We have stunning customers. All of our customers are incredible companies. They all do amazing things. They build incredible products, and it's a privilege to work with all of them.
If they're not ready for this model, or they don't think it's right for them, that's fine. We're still going to have a percentage of our business that we engage in. There's some customers just aren't big enough.
Right.
Right?
Right. That's right.
There's a long tail of customers that they're not driving this much demand, that are wonderful customers, and they're great businesses to be in. As we get there, we'll talk more about it, about where we land, of what percentage of our business i s covered under these agreements. Clearly, the amount of our supply that's left available for this quarterly negotiation is going to go down.
That's right.
That's a good thing, right?
That's right.
It's just more a part of this diversity. We want a broad diversity of how we do business, but what we really want is a major part of the portfolio where we understand the economics years into the future. That, again, go back to these three things we're trying to solve. We want great economics, we want to deal with the cyclicality in a very different way than we've dealt with it in the past, which is just episodic, where it's like, oh my god, all of a sudden we have all these situations where we've got to turn inventory into cash, and we've got to do all these kinds of things. We're leaving that world behind. Right? It doesn't mean that the world's still going to have recessions. Things are still going to change.
Right. That's right.
Stuff is going to go up and down. Issue is how we respond to it. We're going to be in a very, very different position in our ability to respond to that and make it as short as possible. We have way more flexibility. We want to grow. Like I said, we got the growth lever taken care of. Again, that, to me, as a longtime technology manager that's the hardest one, is to grow. Right? Because usually when you get to highly profitable businesses that are large you run out of market and you stop growing, and then you got to go do a whole bunch of other stuff to grow.
We got that one taken care of. I think the debate is, well, could you grow faster? M aybe we could grow faster, but we want to do all three of these things at the same time. We think that's kind of the way we want to structure the portfolio, and it's extremely exciting because we think that's within our grasp. The customers that we need to do that with are coming down that path willingly. They're pulling us down that path.
Right.
Right? We have to innovate around, again, back to this, how do we get our business model, which is an unnatural thing, right? You build a fab, you turn it on, wafers just come out. You better sell them. With their business model, how do we get those two things aligned in a way it works for both of us? We've made, I think, really good progress on that, and we're continuing to having more discussions.
As you rightly pointed out, growth is a paramount sort of focus issue. The great thing about these NBMs, in general, whether customers sign or not, you're getting them to the table. You're having them unveil what they think is their outlook for storage demand for the next sort of several years. Right? As you aggregate all of this, has this changed your views? You have a segment of the market, data center, which wasn't that big of a driver a few years ago, which is clearly going to become a very significant driver of the franchise going forward. Whether it's bringing all these customers to the table, you've got this new demand driver from data center. As you aggregate all of this, has this changed your views on driving a mid to high teens type bit supply growth profile over the next few years?
Yeah. I'm going to go back to kind of the way I've been framing it. The debate always seems to be around could you grow faster or should you grow faster? What we're trying to do is balance all three of these things. Traditionally, the issue in this market is if you start growing faster, then the other two get messed up very quickly. We're very conscious of that, and it's about getting more visibility.
Yeah.
As we get more visibility into the portfolio, I think the answers to these questions will be easier. Right now, again, it was only February of last year-
Right.
...started this question. We got on stage and we said, "The market's going to grow mid to high teens, and we think pricing is going to inflect up in the second half." Everybody told us we were wrong. Right? They gave our company a $7 billion valuation.
Right.
That was only a little over a year ago.
Right.
Now it's like, "Well, you should grow faster and you should do all this other stuff." It's like, hey, look, we have a model, and we believe in that model, and that we believe that mid to high teens bit growth is sustainable over time. As our customers come to us and they're willing to make longer commitments, that will give us more visibility into what the future looks like. That's a good thing for everybody.
Yeah. On the economic profile front, given the strong pricing environment and margin expansion as a result of the rather tight supply environment, there hasn't been as much focus on cost downs by the market as it relates to SanDisk's execution. However, as you negotiate these NBMs, the economic framework is important. There are certain assumptions, Luis, that I assume that you're baking in from a cost down perspective, right, as you think about the overall economics to SanDisk. You have laid out a cost profile, cost down profile of low teens type of annualized rate. First of all, is the low teens annualized rate still the way to think about how you're driving your cost per bit profile?
Maybe if you can just level set us year- to- date, what has been your cost per bit decline trajectory and your outlook for this fiscal year?
Yeah. First of all, we will always focus on costs.
Yeah.
That's our job. We'll continue to drive that. The cost downs are less than they used to be. Frankly, it's not where we want to focus the conversations with our customers. It's about the value we create, the value they create with our products.
It's a part of the economic-- Your customers don't focus on it, but as you think about your economics, you obviously have to factor that in, right?
Right. When we told you that the deals we signed will be consistent with the gross margins-
Correct.
...we guided
All of that is taking into account the current cost structure, everything we see, and that. That's factored in, but we don't talk about costs.
Harlan, this is, I think, one of the most interesting things for me in the last year and a half. When we launched the company, I remember we got on stage and I just said, "I'm going to stop talking about cost downs." Every earnings call, what's your cost down this quarter? What's it going to be next quarter? We're going to stop talking about this. I've never seen an industry where people tell you what their costs are.
Right.
The business was managed from the cost side of it. If we drive our costs down, the economics are worse. We're just going to stop talking about that. It's been kind of interesting over the last year, people stop asking about it. It's been great.
They've stopped asking about it partially because pricing has done well. From my perspective, cost is important because it's a reflection of the team's execution. It's a part of the reason why SanDisk has the best-in-class manufacturing technology. Right? That's part of the reason why I'm asking that question.
You're 100% correct.
Yeah.
I appreciate the question. I appreciate the comments. Look, one of the things I said at the beginning, one of the things I'm so excited about this business, we have an enormous amount of R&D productivity in the tank. We know what the BiCS roadmap is going to be years into the future. You're right, we can increase productivity, we can drive more bits.
Right.
We don't need to do-
That's right. Yeah.
We don't need to build a whole bunch of greenfield and all this kind of stuff because we get the productivity through R&D. A consequence of those additional supply is they are at a lower cost.
Yeah.
That is true. That's our side of the equation to keep, and as Luis said, every business drives more productivity.
Yeah.
Every business drives more productivity. That's our job. We have, to your point of your question, we have a big lever that a lot of people don't have.
Yeah.
of driving productivity, which also drives growth.
Exactly.
It's an amazing thing for the financial model of this franchise. It's incredible.
Yeah.
To Luis' point, we're still very focused on it. It's just not the way we run the business anymore. It used to be the way we run the business, which just was, "Hey, there's infinite elasticity. If we just lower the cost, everybody will make money." Turns out that was never really true. Maybe it was true in the 2D era.
Yeah.
Was never really true in the 3D era.
Right.
Now we're getting to a different way of running the business.
Yes.
Which is the intrinsic value of the technology being recognized, supply discipline, matching supply to attractive demand, not just, "Hey, we can drive the cost down, we should supply more into the market." It doesn't mean that it's not still there.
Correct.
It is still there.
Absolutely.
It's not something where we're not really highlighting that number at this point.
Let's focus on the area of performance and differentiation. You've said it many times, David Goeckeler, but your customers' willingness to enter into these NBMs, these multi-year agreements, is first and foremost driven by differentiation. Performance differentiation. I think one of the areas where the team has done an outstanding job relative to the last 20+ years that I've covered SanDisk standalone, SanDisk as a part of WD, SanDisk standalone again, is the team has made significant improvements in your data center enterprise SSD portfolio. Success in data center solutions, as you guys know, is not just based on having the best-in-class world performance like base NAND manufacturing technology. Success in enterprise SSD is also that, plus I have to have a great silicon controller technology, and then even more importantly, in some cases, I've got to have the right software and firmware.
With the dramatic growth in your enterprise SSD business, along with share gains, what has the team done to architect a better controller chip design? What has the team done to enhance the firmware, software, which are all key determinants and very strong success factors for your customers?
Again, I appreciate the kind words. One of the things I've always appreciated about this business, whether it was part of WD or now as a separate business, is the R&D team. We just have incredible R&D capability, incredible existing IP portfolio. In a world where you have AI now, which is like-
one of the most exciting technologies, when you have this unbelievable R&D team, they're going to come up with new ideas and be able to innovate. That's leading to all kinds of other projects we probably won't have time to talk about, like HBF. Why the progress on enterprise SSD all of a sudden? I look at SanDisk, maybe it's a couple of very big arcs of SanDisk. SanDisk was a great consumer business.
Right.
The WD era was really