Welcome everyone to day two of Citi’s Global TMT Conference. My name is George Kurosawa. I am on the software team here at Citi, and I am pleased to be joined by Joe Del Preto, CFO of SPS Commerce. Welcome, Joe.
Yeah, nice to be here. Thanks for having me.
Maybe just to start, for anyone newer to the story, if you could just frame the SPS journey, where you feel like the company is at today.
Yeah
The value proposition that you are delivering to your customers.
Yeah. SPS has been around for a long time. The business was started in the late 1990s. The age of the internet really changed the way that suppliers and retailers can kind of work together. At the core, what SPS does is it built a managed network between some of the largest buying organizations. Think of big retailers, grocers, industrial suppliers, industrial distributors, and all their suppliers. We manage all the communication, all the EDI communication, API communication, all the digital requirements between the large retailers and grocers and the suppliers. The way we did it, we took a very different approach. We built a network.
Once you connect to our network, for example, when one of the suppliers, for example, let's say a Target supplier connects on our network, they have access to all the other retailers. For example, if they want to also connect with Costco, they don't need to know how to understand how to connect with Costco. They don't need to know what their EDI requirements are or their API requirements. Once they connected with us once, we manage that entire network. Over the years, we have about 3,500 buying organizations and a little over 40,000 suppliers, or what we call our customers, on the network. We kind of manage that network across day-to-day, across those different constituents.
Got it. I want to dive into the business, particularly the Max products.
Yeah.
Maybe just before that. There was some public reporting about some activist engagement, maybe that you all are potentially-
Yeah
exploring a sale. I understand there might be constraints on what you can say.
Yeah.
But if there's any, just give you the floor.
Yeah, no. Obviously, we can't comment on that. What I would tell you right now, internally the business is just. Everyone internally is just focused on driving the business forward. No comment on that, as you can imagine, but we feel really good about the momentum on the business. I'm sure we're going to get into it a little bit, George, but there's a lot of things that are working well right now. I think we're pretty positive about the future of SPS.
Okay, great. When I just think about the timing of your joining, you joined after the 2025 Investor Day. You had established kind of financial framework, high single-digit growth, 70%-75% gross margins, 35% EBITDA margins. Having been in the seat-
Yeah
a few quarters now, how do you think about that framework now? Are there components of that that feel maybe more conservative? Maybe just how has your confidence-
Yeah
in those targets evolved?
What I would say is still the same level of high confidence in the growth rate, in the high single digits. Nothing's changed there. I do think over the last, what I would say, since Investor Day, I think we've made a lot of strides in the internal use of AI that we believe can drive pretty good margin improvement. We're not changing. We talked about 200 basis points year-over-year in operating margin improvement. But some of the things we're seeing as it relates to agents that are going to help with onboarding, agents that we're building for the go-to-market side, and a couple of other areas.
We think that we probably, if you were to say anything was a little bit on the conservative side, or I would say there's probably a little bit more room on the margin side over the next couple of years based on some of the things we're seeing internally.
Okay, interesting. I want to dig into that more later, but maybe we can start on the Max side.
Yeah.
On the growth, obviously, the Max product set, going through the beta process. It seems like through that process, the product has started to evolve.
Yeah.
Chat seems to be morphing into more of a top-of-funnel product. Max Monitor moving into more of an agentic type structure.
Yeah.
Maybe you could talk about the learnings that you've had. What about the customer behaviors signal drove some of those evolutions?
Yeah. We released. It's now available GA for all 40,000 customers of ours on the Max chat side, or what we're calling Max Conversation. The adoption is really high. We're really excited about what we're seeing. What it's actually allowing us to do, we can see what people are putting into the chat and the problems they're trying to solve through their supply chain. For example, we saw a customer find over $300,000 of missing invoices that they never sent to a customer for orders they delivered. What they're able to do is find these issues in their supply chain through various chats. In that example, it took about 30 chats for them to get to that answer, right? Because they're looking, they're prompting it, they're learning.
What we believe is what we're doing is we're using all that information and all the things we're seeing that are people that are putting in the chat, and we're using that to build the agents. Instead of you trying to go through chat and find these supply chain issues, what if we just had an agent, for example, that just made sure that for every single order that you delivered, you created an invoice.
It alerted you that, "Hey, by the way, you delivered these orders to Trader Joe's, you have an invoice in." Or, "By the way, you got these purchase orders from Costco you haven't acknowledged." We see a lot of times where they might receive purchase orders, and a lot of the big retailers, there's a certain time horizon which you have to respond and acknowledge that you received the purchase order from the retailer. What if we had an agent that did that for you? If you think even farther along, what if the agent just went and did that thing that, because right now it'll tell you, "Oh, by the way, you didn't send these invoices." What if the next evolution of the agents we're building just went ahead and created those invoices for you?
We think there's a huge amount of upside in the way that the Max agents, which is the next phase past chat, and that's what we're going to monetize, can really drive a lot of supply chain efficiencies. Because we've built this managed network where we have all the data across all these retailers and grocers and all these suppliers, we think we're best positioned to be able to monetize that information and that data for our customers. We're pretty excited about where it's headed. We'll probably have our first Agents rolled out later this year, kind of in beta form. We're working through pricing and packaging right now, and then in 2027, I think you'll see us launch those more broadly.
Got it. It seems like you've already alluded to an example here, but just talking through the ROI of AI, it's kind of a big theme at this conference.
Yeah.
How do you feel like the most tangible proof points that you've seen in terms of what you can deliver?
Yeah. I think in our case, what we are most excited about is I think we can deliver hard ROI for our customers. We can tell them, for example, these are the purchase orders you missed, these are the invoices you didn't send, these are the drop ship orders that you haven't acknowledged yet. We can tell you right there and then what you're missing and what you're doing. So real ROI. And then on top of that, if we start doing things for you that you had people doing before, for example, like I said, if we can go in and actually fix those things for you and say, "Hey, by the way, you used to have all these people," for example, "had to acknowledge purchase orders.
What if we just identified the ones acknowledged for them, and then the business kept going?" You don't need all these people sitting around doing, like managing the supply chain. So we actually think in our scenario, we can provide hard ROI on our AI, because we're actually identifying real issues in your supply chain.
Right. Maybe on the commercialization side, I appreciate it might be a little bit early here.
Yeah
Maybe you can talk through how you're thinking initially about exposing customers to this product, how you're thinking about packaging it.
Yeah. We haven't finalized the pricing and packaging yet on the agent, but the way we're thinking about it is the way you'll pay for them are probably based on how many agents do you need, right? We might have a different agent for doing one type of activity versus another. We might have different agents depending on are you integrated with an ERP, and that might be a separate agent. The number of agents that you have running, the quantity of data you're consuming. For example, are these agents consuming a little amount of data or a large amount of data? Some kind of consumption-based approach probably. Then how frequently are you running these agents? Do you want these things running every day, every second, every week?
A combination of those things are probably going to drive the way we price and package the agents.
I see.
Some of them will be more sophisticated, some of them will be less sophisticated, are using our Web Fulfillment product, are using System Automation where we're integrating your ERP. There's a couple different factors that will probably drive the way we price and package them.
Makes sense. On the build versus buy, maybe another key pillar of the debate here at the conference.
Yeah
How are you seeing that evolve in your customer base? Are there any examples where you've seen customers maybe try to in-house some of the things that SPS has traditionally offered? What about your product positioning do you feel like maybe insulates you from that?
Yeah, so in our space, and George you probably know this, the build yourself has always been something we've competed against. This is, for us, this is not a new idea or concept. Our biggest competitors have built do it yourself tools. So they give you, for example, a piece of software that you can go build out, and you have to manage all your integrations into the different retailers. You have to stay on top of all the c ompliance from the retailers. You can do it all yourself. Yes, those tools will get a little bit more efficient with AI, but our approach has always been, you can go do it yourself. But we believe the managed network approach, where you connect once, is the better approach. We believe with AI, I don't know that that necessarily changes that dynamic in any way.
We actually think we have a bigger value prop because of our managed network and the ability to apply AI to things we talked about versus doing it yourself. So it's always been the case in our space, a do it yourself versus a network approach. I don't know that AI dramatically changes that dynamic.
Makes sense. On the 1P revenue recovery side.
Yeah
wanted to touch on that. You divested the 3P side, so now.
Yeah
the business is a little more focused. I think even when you had initially acquired those assets, the plan was always to ramp up the cross-sell motion through the course of 2026.
Yep.
If you could just talk through the maturity of that motion. Do you feel like it's fully ramped up? Are there any incremental investments you need to make there?
Yeah. I would not say it's fully ramped up. I think a lot of the first half of this year, we were really focused on this 3P business and whether or not divesting it, what we want to do with it. I think that probably distracted us a little bit from the overall go-to-market strategy. Now that that is divested, what you'll see in the back half of this year going into next year is a real focus on the 1P side of the business, making sure that the sales incentive plans are properly inside of the sales team. Like historically, if you were a rep that was selling into a customer on the SPS Commerce Fulfillment side, you didn't have any incentive to cross-sell one of our other products.
That's going to start to change at the end of this year going into next year, where a sales rep will be incentivized to bring in other products into their sales cycle. Where before, there wasn't a lot of sales incentives to do that. I think a lot of that's going to evolve in the back half of this year. We're also moving or leading with, on the 1P side, the subscription model, the SupplyPike business we bought in 2024. It's all based on subscription base versus take rate. We're leading with that now going forward. We will sell the take rate business, which was the old Carbon6 business on the 1P side, if the customer really wants it. But we're trying to migrate customers off of the take rate because of the volatility, and it's less predictable to the subscription model.
All of that will happen in the back half of this year. You will see some advantages of the cross-selling throughout this year, but I think most of that you will see come through in 2027.
Got it. Maybe sticking on these adjustments to the go-to-market side. I think retailer campaigns have been the core
Yeah
of the new logo growth driver. It seems like you guys are starting to expand into maybe some new channels to acquire new logos, maybe exploring some traditional SEO. Talk us through what you are thinking there, and if, to the extent that spend has started, what are you seeing the initial conversion rates
Yeah
funnel build?
Yeah. The biggest driver of our top-of-funnel is the retail programs and working with the retailers. Number two is probably the channel. We have a lot of relationships with a lot of the big ERPs and the different VARs, and that's another big driver for us. On the marketing side, it's probably been an under-invested area. It's probably not so much on the SEO side, it's probably more on a couple areas. We haven't done a really good job marketing to existing customers, product marketing. For example, letting the customers know about things like Analytics or Revenue Recovery, or letting them know about the MAX products that are coming out. I think there's a huge opportunity. We made a lot of enhancements to our existing product that a lot of our existing customers don't know about.
I think, one, product marketing into the existing customer base is a focus area of marketing. The other one, on the new customer side, is more probably a upmarket into the mid-market enterprise. Probably less, more direct marketing campaigns, more of that account-based marketing, versus your traditional SEO type of spend. That's probably where the marketing team is spending more time. It hasn't been a huge part of our go-to-market budget historically. This is not incremental dollars to the budget, it's more about the reallocation of where those resources were before. We do believe there's an ability to drive more demand, not only within our existing customer base, but new customers with more of a marketing lens.
I see. When you think about the return you've had on those initial dollars-
Yeah
that you've started to reallocate, how has that compared to some of the traditional channels?
Yeah, what I would say is we're seeing really, especially on the existing customer side, where we're trying to get in front of our existing customer base, not only on new products, but how do we understand the other retailers they're working with, making sure we have the full penetration. We're seeing some really good early returns on our ability to go out into our existing customer base. It's probably still too early on the net new side because the retail and the channel is such a big part of that. It's definitely driving traffic, but probably not at the level yet where we're like, "Okay, this is a huge success," because it's still so early, and those sales cycles take a little bit longer. Where we're seeing the real success is on the existing customer side.
Got it. Makes sense. On the just traditional enablement campaign piece, that side has been obviously historically a great engine for the business.
Yeah.
It has, at times, been a little bit lumpy in terms of
Yeah
how it's driven new logos. Just talk us through your pipeline. Do you feel like the character of those campaigns has been changing at all? Just any patterns that you're seeing there.
Yeah. What I would say is we definitely saw pressure in the back half of last year with the number of retail campaigns we were landing. I think it was a combination of a couple things. One, I definitely think the impact of the tariffs on the overall macro of our market put a lot of pressure on retailers. Then number two is, before this year, or the first time coming into this year, the way the retail team was organized was it was just one team, and they had new and existing accounts. Where as you can imagine, for a sales rep, it was much easier to go and expand within existing retailers and land new programs than land net new retailers.
What happened was we brought a new leader in in the middle of last year, and coming into this year, what we reorganized the team, where we have folks that are hunters and farmers. We have a team dedicated to going to land net new retailers that we've never had before, and then folks that are focused on existing retailers and expanding within those and adding new programs. Since we've done that, the first half of this year, the number of retail programs on the net new side that we've been able to generate, I think coming into this quarter, was the highest pipeline we've ever seen. That momentum in the first half of this year is going to lead to the success we expect to see the back half of this year into next year.
I think it's a combination of the change in the go-to-market strategy, and also the retailers are in a much healthier position than they were a year ago. I think the combination of those two, we've talked about this, is probably the strongest level of retail campaigns that we've seen over the last four or five years going into the back half of this year. We're very excited of the momentum we're seeing in that space. There's a couple things that have been driving that.
Is that hunter motion already delivering results? I'd imagine-
Yes
it takes some time to build pipeline and close some of those opportunities. Is that something that's already
Already delivering results. We've got those campaigns. We have the campaigns closed, and now we have to go implement them, right? That's what you'll see in the back half of the year. The first half of the year, we're out there selling these campaigns, and we definitely have a strong pipeline of new campaigns in the back half of the year. Then you have this cycle. You've got to reach out to all the suppliers, you've got to onboard them, and so that'll all happen the back half of this year, early next year. As you know, that's all part of the land and expand motion. So what happens is, when we land these new customers, they usually only land with that one retailer in the retailer program.
Then we have a separate team that comes in after the fact and says, "Okay, now that we've landed this one retailer, let's get the rest of the folks you're working with." That's kind of the expand motion. The near-term impact of landing those new customers from a revenue standpoint is quite small, but that's really the engine that drives the long-term growth, is then we can add multiple retailers on top of that.
Right. I think one of the things you initially alluded to, talking about the long-term framework, where you feel more confident is on the margin side. It seems like SPS, the business model, there's so many opportunities for internal application of AI.
Yeah.
Talk us through maybe the top few use cases you're seeing and your progress so far on making improvements there.
Yeah. The top use case is going to be on the onboarding side. Our largest cost of revenue in the organization is the onboarding team, and this is the team that historically would manually onboard every one of our customers onto the network. Whether you're the smallest customer, you got a human being that came in and helped configure the network between you and the retailer. Even on the large side, they'd come in, for example, if we were integrating into your ERP, let's say a NetSuite, they would help you with all your NetSuite configuration, help you integrate into our network. That's the largest cost we, that's the largest team at SPS in total. We talked about a month ago, we did our first fully agentic onboarding for our Web Fulfillment customers. Not the ERP-integrated customers, but think of the Web Fulfillment customer.
On average, that would take maybe a day or two for a person to help onboard that customer. The agent can do it in minutes. We did our first one about a month ago. Now we have hundreds of those a month going on, and we're making real progress on the ability to agentify the onboarding process. The next phase that you're going to see that we're starting to build right now are the agents for the System Automation customers. If you think about each ERP we integrate with, we've got to build a separate agent to onboard the NetSuite configuration, because that's different than the SAP configuration. Now we're in the process of building agents that will help customers onboard on the System Automation side.
If you think about overall, what used to take hundreds of people to onboard our customers, we believe, for example, on the System Automation side, let's say it took you six-nine months to onboard on SPS network manually, we can do that in a few weeks. Not only will that create a much better customer experience, I think it's quicker time to think about time to revenue on those customers. The sooner we can onboard you, the sooner orders are flowing through, the sooner we can add more trading partners. On top of that, we believe it's going to really help with the retailers. One of the biggest pushbacks we get historically with retailers when we're trying to land new retailers is how long it takes to onboard the suppliers.
We go into a retailer, we convince them that, "Hey, why don't we help make sure all your suppliers are digitally compliant and meeting all your requirements?" And they'll say, "Okay, how long does that take?" It's going to probably take six to 12 months to onboard all your suppliers. Now if we can go to them and say, "Hey, we can onboard all your suppliers in a month," it's a much different value prop. We think there's going to be multiple impacts of building these onboarding agents. Not only is it going to drive margin, but also we believe it could have a big impact on revenue.
Really interesting. Those initial agentic deployments that you've done, maybe if you could frame how the amount of time savings that you've seen there relative to what a traditional approach would have looked like.
Yeah. On the Web Fulfillment side, I would say it would take, on average, 1 to 2 days for someone to onboard them. Now that can be done in 15 minutes.
Wow.
Then something that maybe took, on the System Automation side, six to nine months. Now, this isn't live yet. We think we can get the six to nine months down to a few weeks. A pretty dramatic change in the time it takes to onboard. And the customer experience is so much better because what we're doing is, what the agent does is it goes out across all of the gone calls and all the conversations sales has had. It goes through all the CRM. It knows all your requirements based on the retailer you're working with. And so it can do all the configuration with very little input from the customer. And what it will do is say, "Oh, here are the one or two pieces of information we need from you.
We have everything else." The customer experience is just much better because they're not sitting on the phone or going back and forth with email with our onboarding agent. The time it takes them on their end as well, not only is it our time, but it's the customer's time that they have to put forward to do these onboarding as well. We think there's a pretty big value prop for our customers there.
It also seems like a faster customer time to value might lend itself to easier cross-sell. I mean, first of all, higher satisfaction, but also you're able to just get them through that process more quickly, get them to value, and expose them to some of the new products.
You're exactly right. We're not going to sell you any new products until you're at least onboarded onto the core SPS Commerce Fulfillment product. You're exactly right. The sooner we can get to that motion as well, the better.
Just in terms of the retailer rule book maintenance, is that maybe thinking through other use cases-
Yeah
of potential AI. Is the retailer rule book maintenance, maybe help us understand how large is that in terms of the cost structure and maybe if you've seen any improvements there?
Yeah. What I would say there, I think it's one of the huge value, it's one of our huge sets of proprietary data, because only about half of the buying organizations publish the actual requirements. Most of them are unwritten, and only about a third of the changes that they make are actually published. A lot of the rules that they have are unwritten rules. Because we've gone about this go-to-market approach where we work with the retailers to drive the supplier compliance, we have access, we get all the information, we get all the data. That itself hasn't dramatically changed.
What we believe agents can help us do is because we have access across the whole network, if we see an issue, for example, with one supplier with Target over here, before we would identify that, it would notify someone on the team, and they would go make that configuration change in the network, so all the other customers get that advantage. That's one of the big advantages. What if an agent, for example, could identify that on this customer A over here, and then instead of alerting someone on the engineering team to go make this change in the network, it could automatically go through and make that change based on what happened over here? We believe that's where we can get some real advantages, to your point, about where AI can help be more efficient in the way we update the network.
These different initiatives, gross margin has already been trending up for the business.
Yeah.
Would you attribute any of that to these initiatives yet, or this is all sort of further upside to come?
No, none of this is hitting our gross margin yet. Like I said, we did our first agentic onboarding about a month ago, and so this is all probably incremental upside to the margin improvements you've seen. The margin improvement you've seen on the gross margin in the last couple of years has been more fine-tuning all of those manual processes with our customers. Because one of the biggest friction points, one of the areas of dissatisfaction with our customers is when that onboarding process takes so long. So that team's already been laser-focused on making process improvements there and getting more efficient in the way they do their job, and that's more process people and technology. That's where that historical over-the-last-12-to-24-months margin improvements come from. None of the stuff I just talked about is built into our margin right now that you see.
On the guidance framework for the rest of the year, I think by our math, you talked about the 1P logo side ending up maybe somewhere flat to slightly up for the year. I think that implies some kind of step up on the 1P ARPU side.
If you could just talk about what do you feel like are the main drivers underpinning that and the durability of ARPU growth going forward?
Yeah. I think the biggest thing driving that is the momentum we are seeing within our existing customer base on adding new retailers and new trading partners. I think last year we saw a lot of down sells and a lot of pressure when the tariffs came out. Now that we have lapped, once we hit to April, we lapped Liberation Day. We went through all those contracts, we right-sized them. What we are seeing from our customers is they are in a much healthier position. What we are seeing, that we see them on renewals, we see them adding more trading partners, they are increasing their document plans. We are seeing momentum in that regard. That is what gives us the most confidence.
Then, like I said, a lot of the times when we run these retailer programs, yes, we add net new customers, but a lot of the time we are adding new trading partners to our existing customer base as well, right? The momentum we are seeing on the retail side, not only is that going to drive more new customers, but it also is a huge expansion lever for us as well. So a combination of the momentum we are seeing on the retail side, and then what I would say is the health of our existing customer base and our ability to add more trading partners, starting to cross-sell a little bit of SPS Commerce Revenue Recovery. I think the combination of all of those things give us confidence on the ARPU side.
The international story, I think that is something that has come in and out of focus for SPS. Maybe if you could just give us an update on what the progress has been.
Yeah.
How does that stack rank in terms of your different initiatives?
Yeah. It's definitely a focus of ours. We're still mostly focused in North America. 91% of our revenue comes from North America. We hired a new European leader late last year. He's done a really good job. We're starting to land our first retail programs over there. It's a little bit different dynamic over there. We haven't really led with the retail programs. What we're trying to do is build out a very similar structure like we do in the U.S. over there, but it's very country specific, right? Think about the U.S. market, it's massive, and you could have a deck that covers all of the U.S. Well, in Europe, the retailers are different by country. It's a little bit different of a strategy that you have to take over there to build out this kind of retail strategy.
But we're starting to see some success. We're seeing success in the U.K. We're seeing some success in Australia. I do think there's momentum over there. The new leader over there is really strong, and we're starting to figure out what is our local strategy going to be. Also, we're seeing some momentum on the e-invoicing side. I know we bought a company in that space about four or five years ago. You've probably seen there's been some new e-invoicing requirements coming out across Europe. Anytime these new requirements come out, that's a tailwind for our business because that's something we do. It forces adoption. There's a couple things that we believe are moving in the right direction there.
It's not going to be a huge growth driver of the business overall the next couple years, but it's definitely gaining momentum, and so we feel good about the directions it's going right now. We're happy with the leader that we brought in. It's definitely an area that we're focused on. It's just not going to be the biggest driver.
Got it. I want to pause to see if there's any questions in the audience for Joe. Okay. Maybe just on the capital allocation side, you guys have been fairly aggressive with the buyback side. It seems like M&A, you haven't undergone anything since Carbon6.
Yeah.
Maybe just how you're thinking about the split there between maybe future tuck-ins.
Yeah
Further buybacks, organic growth reinvestment.
Yeah. I would say right now, we're obviously keeping our eye on M&A. I don't think that's probably the first place we would invest. I think right now we would continue to buy our stock back. We think that's the best value right now based on where our stock is trading. As we go forward, we're constantly monitoring this, right? If things were to change on that front, then obviously we would look back at M&A. I don't think M&A is off the table forever. I think just right now, that mix right now is more towards buyback versus M&A.
Got it. Then, I think we talked through a lot of the components of the margin expansion story that seemed really interesting. Maybe you could just talk us through converting that to free cash flow. I think a lot of the guidance framework has been around EBITDA.
Yeah.
How do you think about the mechanics there in terms of conversion, where that could go?
Yeah. We're focused on that. We actually have, I would say, a pretty good conversion from EBITDA to free cash flow. That's definitely a focus of us. It's definitely a focus of investors, and we're always driving towards better free cash flow. I think there's a big opportunity here. I think historically we've sold more month to month than annual contracts. And we have a slightly more right now annual versus month to month, but we haven't done our pricing and packaging that gave a lot of incentives to buy annual versus monthly. The sales team hasn't been incentivized to sell annual versus monthly. I do think there's some dynamics in our pricing and packaging.
I think there's some dynamics in our sales incentives that you'll see over the next 12 months that can, I believe, drive even stronger free cash flow and probably close that gap even more between EBITDA and free cash flow. So that's definitely a focus of ours internally.
Okay. We just have a few minutes left here. Maybe if you could just leave investors with some closing thoughts.
Yeah.
What gets you most excited about the business going forward?
Yeah. I think what gets me most excited are a couple of things. One, we built the biggest managed network in this space. We believe that with Max and the agents that we can build that sit on top of that network, we can be the best positioned to drive efficiency in the supply chain between these large retailers and suppliers. I don't think anyone else, in all your do-it-yourself scenarios, you're not going to be able to do that because you don't have the knowledge or the information that we have when you join a network to be able to apply the AI in the same way we do.
We actually think if you wake up two, three, four years from now, the combination of the margin improvements we're going to get with the internal agents we're building and the way we believe we can play AI across this managed network, we think we're going to be very well positioned to really grow this business and be the market leader.
Great. Well, we'll leave it there then. Joe.
All right.
Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, everyone else.
Thank you. Thanks, George.