All right, thanks for joining us. Welcome to the 51st annual JP Morgan TMC Conference. I'm Phil Cusick. I follow the communications and media space here at JP Morgan. I want to welcome John Stankey, Chairman, CEO of AT&T.
It's good to be here.
you know, John, you finished selling assets about a year ago.
Before you get in, can everybody get their drink order in?
Yeah.
for the cocktail hour?
The cart's gonna come around.
I probably ought to do the safe harbor statement too. As you know, we have a website that you can go to look at all of our investor relations material. Some of the things I say today are forward-looking in nature and may not ultimately be the reality that sets in, so please understand that as you move forward here today. Thank you.
There we go. Did you hear I had to read that for Disney earlier?
Did you?
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
90 seconds of it. I did it in my best Mickey voice.
That's what I've got the legal department down to. We're changing a lot at AT&T.
Yeah. All right. Good. A year ago, changing a lot, you spun off WarnerMedia. Talk about what's happened in the business in the last year in terms of efficiency and a more sort of streamlined organization.
It's actually a year, I guess, last month, so it's not been that long. I'd say what's happened at the macro level is the business is a more focused business. One of the ways I describe it to people who ask me is I think there's more days where we come into work and we're calling the plays rather than the plays being called for us, which is a good thing. When you think about all the things we set out to do, which is start the process of de-levering, we made good progress in that last year, have more work to do as we drive to 2.5x in 2025, and still committed that our excess cash moves toward that. Our market momentum, both in the consumer fixed space and in wireless, has been strong.
We've been much more efficient in how we've attacked the market. You've seen our margin expansion occur in both those spaces as we've gotten more efficient. Our customer service levels have been improving across the board, which has helped us achieve best-in-class churn in both our postpaid wireless space and our consumer broadband space. For the first time in our history, we surpassed both T-Mobile and Verizon in ACSI customer satisfaction scores. Our own polling that we do and research shows that we're making progress in a lot of key areas of how customers view the business. Very, very strong progress in the reliability of our broadband product and the consistency of use on the wireless network. Not maybe the fastest, but the consistency of use scores, which we know is one of the major determiners of customers' choice on wireless networks, has improved dramatically, so that's helped.
You know, frankly, when you start to look at what we've been doing on the cost side, some of the basic blocking and tackling where we started to close some of the gaps between ourselves and other industry players. Also, we've done a lot of work around how we start to migrate out of our embedded legacy infrastructure in the business and put a lot of plans in place. We've built some specialized products and enabled that to happen. We've been aggressively working the regulatory stance on those things, and we are now poised and in a position where we can start working through that and executing that, and that will be kind of the next chapter in our ultimate cost takeout in this business.
I would say by and large, over the course of the year, we kind of set out what we intended to do, which is be a great communications company, take the asset base, get better returns off of it, and start maturing our operations and our expertise on it. We're not done with that journey, but we're in a far better place.
You started with cost-cutting, and I want to go back to that because you're in the middle of a pretty substantial cost-cutting program. Where are you in that and where are you in terms of that starting to come through in margins rather than being reinvested?
Well, I think you're actually starting to see it come through in margins. You've been seeing some margin accretion work into parts of the business right now. I would tell you, when you look at kind of where we are, we set out an initial target of $6 billion. We just passed the $5 billion of the $6 billion. We'll finish the balance of that over the course of this year. I don't expect we're stopping, to my point. I think our next chapter is to move into some of the legacy infrastructure on the copper base and what we're going to do to start sunsetting and retiring a lot of those legacy products and services that we have. I fully expect that that's going to be something that will be a multiyear effort.
When I look at kind of where we are relative to our gaps against some of our most storied competitors, we're probably about halfway in the journey of getting to parity of what we expect, so we've got about another half to go. When I look at the initiatives we have on the plate and the things that we're doing, feel comfortable that we can get that done. Look, I think you're gonna start seeing that accretion come in the form of improved cash flows, as we said, $16 billion this year. Some of that is coming on the backs of our improved cost management. As we move into the subsequent years, we're going to be doing the same thing.
Okay. There were some very precise net add numbers thrown around in the industry recently that I don't know how anybody can be that precise on where we're headed. As you look at the industry and the customers that you can go after in the last year, has that customer base slowed in terms of growth and what do you think is driving that?
Yeah. I think I'm probably syncing with you in what some comments were maybe a week or two ago by some in the industry, I think the characterization of the industry I would generally agree with. I don't know that I agree with each of the precise allocations of the buckets within it. I would say in aggregate, the industry slowed a bit, I think we've been saying since last year that it was gonna slow a bit. I expect that was kind of the foundation of which we built our plan on. Everybody kind of looks at it a little bit differently. You know, we don't count prepaid to postpaid conversions as a gross add in the industry. Others do.
There are free line giveaways which get counted as, you know, net adds, but if they're not accreting into revenue, you know, is that the same as one that's a new customer that's paying full tilt for a monthly service fee? There's a little bit of derating that goes on. I think the point is that we're gonna see an industry that no matter how you count it, is suppressed probably in every category from last year a bit. I think that's just an artifact in the post-COVID environment of, in some cases, businesses rationalizing the infrastructure they need to support their business as they moved out of COVID. Sometimes there were multiple devices, sometimes there were data pucks, sometimes there was backup systems for temporary offices being put in place.
Some of that's being worked out. As a result of that, you see a little bit of thinning. I think you had, you know, as you would normally in the early parts of a new entrant coming in, Cable can look at the credit profile of certain customers differently than the embedded wireless players can look at them. They have a relationship. They sell broadband to a customer. Somebody that we may have looked at as being credit unworthy, they may have a relationship with and say they are worthy because we know what they do, and we can treat them to a different type of product or service.
You work through to kind of the front end on those things, the easy stuff comes on, and then it suppresses a bit, and I think we're gonna see that as we move through the balance of this year, probably also gated by a little bit of a more tepid economic environment is my guess.
I was surprised that one of your peers sat right here a couple of hours ago and told us that his net adds would be better year-over-year in the second quarter. A pleasant surprise. Do you want to give us where you're coming in at the-
Who was here earlier?
Mike Sievert.
Oh, okay. Could have guessed.
I wasn't gonna say it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just checking.
Yeah.
I wanna make sure.
Right.
I mean, probably doesn't surprise me. I would think a couple of things. One is, you know, they just did a major price increase and rejiggered their plans and threw a bunch of promotional constructs in to try to trigger some of that. I think you've also seen, at least I've seen some stuff floating around the industry of internal documents that they're also targeting that with maybe some additional free lines on certain accounts to incent some movement on that.
With that, I would expect that there's probably a little bit of pent-up demand in the front end of that new construct that you're gonna see some customers move in, and then it will, as it typically does, if it doesn't gain traction in the data that I've seen, at least in porting ratios and what we see in the market suggests there was a bit of a spike in the first couple weeks, and we're now kind of moving back to stasis and normalization. I think that will probably contribute a bit. Secondly, I know, and it's been in the public domain, there was a large government account that changed hands. It left AT&T, and it went to a particular company. It's probably 75,000-ish postpaid subscribers that are part of that government account.
It was business that was a break-even business for us. I walked it because I didn't want it at the prices that were required to take it, and I felt like kind of preserving profitability was an appropriate thing. I'm sure that's gonna move through the numbers in the second quarter that will help. That's a big chunk, and sometimes you see those lumpy dynamics roll through. it didn't surprise me that maybe they have a more flattish quarter to last year. I think overall, I still stand by my notion that I think the industry in general is gonna be down.
I think we are seeing numbers that are very similar to what I saw in the first quarter, where ratably, we're generally holding our share, notwithstanding a couple of those comments I just made that I think are probably gonna be one-off dynamics.
How do you think about tuning the business? That's very helpful. tuning the business in a slower environment. You know, you let that one go, maybe you fight for this one. sort of judging that, you know, you wanna grow, you wanna maintain your share, but also very sort of rationally.
I wouldn't, the context of your question, I wouldn't have made a different decision on that a year ago or two years ago. It would have been the same decision whether the environment was fast growth or slow growth. You know, we do business that is accretive to the company, and that's, you know, kind of how we're tuned all the time. I can't tell you that we're perfect in a large business and somehow, somewhere, somebody doesn't get something through that, you know, didn't have the right eyes on it. Maybe if John Stankey had looked at it, he might have said no, and somebody else said yes. By and large, the constructs that we try to run the business by and what we do is to ensure that we're bringing in business that's accretive.
Because of the breadth of our relationships, for example, with many large business accounts that we have, we have to look at that broadly. Sometimes in a particular contract change or a particular construct that we're selling, we may be balancing that out against the entire book of business with the account and thinking about what holds and what allows us to stay in a prime position. Those kind of decisions have always been the way that we've looked at things and made sure that in aggregate, we're delivering acceptable returns back. Now, to get to the point of your question, what do we do in a slower growth business? Well, look, I think it's really important that you have low churn in a slower growth market.
you know, it's good to be sitting here. At the lowest postpaid churn, voice churn in the industry right now. It's good to be sitting here with the lowest broadband churn in the industry. The best way to manage costs and manage profitability and slower growth is to not to have to re-trade customers, and we start that in a very strong position in that regard. Propensity to switch numbers that we look at within our customer base are incredibly robust right now than in terms of our ability to hang on to the base and manage through things. That's one. Two, you have to be very careful about which channels are bringing in the right profitable growth. We've been talking for multiple quarters about we're not really just kind of running one one play.
We've been working our distribution very carefully across a variety of different channels. Some of those channels are more profitable than others. Some of them are better at bringing in new gross, new to AT&T than others. We are tuning that to ensure that we're prioritizing those channels and maybe backing off some of the channels that were neutral to slightly positive with the expectation that in this environment that they may move to being less than positive. That's probably the second biggest move we do. Third, we're of course playing through where we have an opportunity to start ganging up on multiple products in a household, wireless, but no broadband, but no wireless. Those are easy accretive wins early on.
We've done some good work in that regard over the last couple of years, but we still have more to do where we can be a bit more refined right now, and we're doubling down in those areas.
You mentioned broadband wireless broadband. As I said earlier today that, you know, I've been doing this a long time and I've never seen.
Oh, yeah.
... where there wasn't a lot of fear about competition. Yet today the focus of fear is on cable, and this convergence and just a general deflation in both industries as wireless goes into broadband and broadband goes into wireless. Is that a concern of yours, or is that just overblown by investors?
I'm always mindful of competition. I think there's, you know, you don't ever want to take your eye off the ball, but I'd step back before I'd look at any specific issue and I'd say, look at what's just happened in the wireless space over the last two months and the restructuring of rate plans, across our two largest competitors. You want to get that?
I'm gonna leave it.
Our two largest competitors just made some pretty significant changes, and I think in most instances are trying to price in more value, by taking rates up and sometimes restructuring how the fringes come with it. They're effectively, you know, I think suggesting that because of their large investments in their business, they should be able to get more from a customer. Boy, if you know, you're worried about competitive intensity, typically you wouldn't see.
Prices get higher.
... the floors going this way, right? I'm just like, I'm a simpleton, but I don't do market structure for a living. I think most of the books used to say that that was, you know, an indication of a healthy structure in a market. You know, I kind of look at that and I say, all right, well, Cable's down pricing to a segment of the, of the base at aggressive pricing. The segment that they seem to be able to attach are the 1 and 2 line customers. It's much harder on an MVNO construct at three and four lines when you get into costs of devices, you get into the breakage dynamics that occur at the lower price point on the average lower price points that we sell at on a four or five, six line.
Yeah, just to clarify, I've heard this and people ask me what this means, and I think what it means is, you know, you sell a single customer at $70, $80, $90, and you sell family lines at $40-$50.
Yeah. I always love the, you know, a good comparison that comes out is everybody says, "Oh, rates are so much lower in Europe." Well, what they're comparing is the one line price in the United States to the one line price in Europe. What is the comparison is the family plan price in the United States, which over 65% of our customers are on greater than two line family plans. You know, you compare those numbers, and they start to look comparative, right? It's exactly right, and that's how most of the market in the US is sold. I would tell you that while there's some near term numbers, I don't know that that scales necessarily to the broad base of, given the constructs of affinity plans.
I would also say that when you kind of look at what we've got going on is I'm not surprised that the aggressive stance right now, if you have the most vulnerable broadband product in the market, which if you do customer research, least satisfied fixed broadband customers to the large players in the market tend to be, assuming our fiber product, tend to be Charter Communications customers. I think going and pairing them with another product is a good defensive move to keep them on your broadband product. I'm not surprised that they're being competitive and aggressive with that.
At some point in time, being on a variable cost product where the usage element is increasing 40% a year, and we're likely to start seeing some new applications start to pop up in the end of this year, where customers start buying devices that are mobile usage intensive, that require high bandwidth capabilities to use them and avail themselves of them. They're going to be incremental add-ons to existing accounts. That play, you know, just feels like it's going to get stressed. To be a low price leader when you're not the low-priced infrastructure provider.
You've hinted about this, I think it was on the earnings call, the things that could come at the end of the year. I think of what to come at the end of the year is the 5G networks will be much more complete than they are today, yours and your peers. There's some AR/VR devices that are big headlines coming from some big manufacturers. Is that what you're referring to?
I think we'll probably see some first-generation consumer electronics devices starting to show up. I think they're going to get progressively better and progressively more mobile over time, would be my guess.
I had assumed that those would start as Wi-Fi rather than 5G.
I would think you're probably, I think, when we think about how the first smartphones emerged and what the utility was mobile versus fixed, I think we should assume that there's probably gonna be a migration of that, where largely, the scaled infrastructure in the home and some mobile and then moving to more mobile.
Yeah. As you look at the, you know, I imagine you walk through the skunk works in Korea or in Cupertino and sort of see what might be coming someday. Is it one, two, three, four years from now when those things are mobile and really dragging a lot of data through your network?
Well, look, I think, you know, I said this, I think you're going to start to see, to your point, as 5G networks with the capabilities that were instantiated in 5G to do things like network slicing, unique characteristics of performance start to actually become more ubiquitous and capable, the applications will start to show up. As we get into next year, I think you're going to start seeing those things occur. You're going to start seeing usage being driven not only in the consumer space, but probably more prevalent in the business space. When I'm visiting large enterprise customers that we deal with, more often than not, that conversation gets back to some degree of private infrastructure that they need within their operation. It's not just about the private infrastructure, it's about how to take the private infrastructure and marry it-
Yes.
with the wide area network so that it works as soon as you leave the office park or you leave the building out to the tarmac, and you need that consistency. I think you're going to start seeing that emerge, and I think those kind of capabilities over time are the type of thing that having high performance mobile compute and making sure that your bandwidth and infrastructure is tuned to do that is going to be really important.
I think those things will come. They've just suffered from overhype by some of your peers.
Usually. Remember early on in LTE, everybody said, "Well, why the hell is everybody you know, deploying 4G LTE? Why all this investment?" Suddenly it's like, hey, when you have consistent streaming and you can actually watch video all the time, we can build some different applications. Then boom, it goes, right?
Right. Well, speaking of broadband, you know, the in-home portion, getting this fiber network up and running, I think is going to be really interesting as you roughly double the size of your network over a few years. What, what have you seen in terms of the return on this process, both the input costs but also the performance of the business in terms of what people are taking and how many of them?
Well, the business is performing well. If it was not performing well, we wouldn't have had the conviction to start the Gigapower venture with BlackRock. I think what we saw within our region, actually, we were so impressed by what we saw. We said, "Is there an extension of this outside of our region that we should be thinking of variants, that we should understand that we're at a different moment in time?" Within our footprint and that which is owned and operated by exclusively AT&T, we've talked about the fact that when we did the original business case on 30 million customer passings, 2025, you know, we looked at a variety of different things.
The big sensitivities in the business case are the rate of penetration, how fast you get customers on the network after you build it, the ARPU, and in particular, what the terminal ARPU is on the customer at its steady state and then third, it's the build costs. Those are your biggest impact around the financial return characteristics of it. On the rate of penetration, I've shared publicly that our rate of penetration in the first year after a build is twice as much as what we expected when we did the original business case on this stuff to get to the 30 million customer passings.
Can you quantify that for us at all? Because...
We haven't gone any further than that. It's substantial. Okay.
Bar cart. We need the bar cart.
It's twice as a lot.
All right.
I'll just leave it at that. The second, we're operating right now at what we assume to be the terminal ARPU. Where we stand in the business right now, we're actually at what would have been the terminal ARPU out at year 10.
When was this business case written?
This is right before we announced the 30 million homes, which is about 30 million passings, which was right about when I came into the job, so three years ago. The third part, cost to build, there has been a little bit of pressure on build. Two parts of a build. There's what you pay for the electronics and the fiber. That part, less volatile, more governed by long-term supply relationships. We have scale. This is something, by the way, that we've imparted to the JV. Our procurement and supply contracts are availed to the JV to be able to buy fiber and electronics under that. The second part of the civils. After you have the electronics, you got to dig trenches and all the sexy things that you do to get stuff out in the neighborhood.
That part has been more prone to inflation dynamics because it's a wage-intensive dynamic of hiring people to dig trenches and do work. In the aggregate, you're talking about 5% and 10% increases in cost to build on something that is amortized over 30 years. If you pick a number just as example, if you said it was $1,000 per location passed and you go to $1,100 or $1,050 and you amortize that over 30 years, and then you weigh that against far faster penetration, higher ARPU, you're doing better on returns, not worse than what we assumed back in 2020.
Okay. As you look at the selling that broadband business and the wireless together, how is the broadband sort of pulling wireless along? Or is wireless pulling broadband along in new markets?
We pull when we have a new customer addition in broadband and when we penetrate broadband, we've gotten pretty good now around starting to farm that base to move wireless customers that are not AT&T Wireless customers. It, you know, it's really not rocket science. It really helps when somebody buys a product and they're happy. They buy fiber. It's got very high customer acceptance levels. You know, you're talking 10, 12 points of difference of NPS than other products in the market. It's viewed when a customer starts to use it, they notice the quality and the difference, they're receptive to listening to something at that point. That helps a lot. Now, as you know, we're adding maybe, I mean, you guys can all go do the math, call it 300,000-ish customers on fiber a quarter.
You rate that then for market share based on the markets that we sell in. That gives you a pool of customers to go after, but it's not as impactful as, you know, mass market advertising to the national U.S. The flip side, we go to the inverse of that share, those people who have AT&T Wireless that don't have broadband, we've been a little less effective on that, but we're now starting to get our groove. We have a little bit more we need to do, but I would say there's no reason that can't be as productive as the inverse, but it hasn't yet. We are getting there.
Okay. I want to spend a few minutes just to change gears a little bit. Free cash flow is this thing that has always been a focus for AT&T management and investors, to the good and the bad. In a business where operational metrics were all in line to better in the first quarter, the stock was down 10%.
Mm-hmm. I didn't notice.
I imagine that was a tough day. Help us think about the pieces of free cash flow where there's variability and where investors have risk and how you think about managing that going forward.
Maybe I'll back up one step.
Yeah
... we just went through the emotional event. Probably some things I'd do differently coming. I don't know that it would have changed the outcome, the numbers are the numbers. I'm not suggesting that you change the numbers. Thought we had communicated effectively that we expected it was going to be a down cash quarter and why. Apparently not effectively enough. The conclusion, one of the other conclusions I've drawn is just got an investor base that doesn't like $1 billion, period, no matter what you communicate. How did we get there? Probably a lot of reasons over a number of years. Got a lot going on in the business. We're changing a lot. We're investing at record levels. We shifted our position in the market. Our supply base is different. We started new construction things that we haven't done before.
The cash flow characteristics of the business with that many moving parts and changes, dramatically changed. You know, where we used to be a little bit more ratable quarter to quarter, first quarter was always a little bit soft, but never to this level. We've now engineered a business on working capital and a variety of other things that resulted in a plan that had us doing what we did. Clearly, our investor base is not enamored with that lumpiness. Even though we've kind of engineered it for relatively ratable and equivalent profitability quarter to quarter, the cash flow dynamics were not that way.
As a management team, got to step back and ask ourselves, what do we need to do to start architecting the business a little bit differently to accept the fact that investors would like to see a little bit more predictability and ratability around it? What are the things we can do operationally and structurally to smooth that out moving forward? That's one of the things that I think is a takeaway that we need to do. Probably if I was doing my job right, probably should have stumbled to that earlier and probably should have immediately understood that given what took place in 2022, that people would, you know, without listening to what's being said or whatever data was put out there, go to a deja vu all over again moment and say, "Here we are again.
We're just going through this process that occurred in the early part of 2022 to guide down on cash. I, you know, I'd hoped maybe I hadn't processed that credibility had moved along and that people had all the visibility to be able to look at it differently, and I was wrong. What do I think is different this time? I'll point to three things. One, you just hit one of them right on the head. Profitability, customer metrics, customer growth, ARPU growth, EBITDA growth, the profitability of our largest business, the guide that we've given on EBITDA growth of 3% or better, those are all going to drive real improvements in cash flows as we move through the year. Customers are paying us. We have every reason to believe they're going to continue paying us.
That's gonna result in money in the coffers and improve the performance of the business in 2023 versus 2022. Second, handset payments and handset expenditures. First quarter was the peak. It's the peak because we sell more in the fourth quarter than we do at any other time of the year. Based on the payment structures with the vendors we deal with, that bill all comes due in the first quarter. We also have some one-time dynamics that occur in the first quarter of compensation structures for bonus payouts. That goes away. We know handsets will be lower. I just shared with you. Look, if the industry's down in aggregate on gross adds, that's gonna mean the demand on handsets are going to be down.
If we see dynamics of customers choosing, in some segments of the market, to extend the use of their handsets a bit longer, that will drive it down. We have pretty good line of sight to know that our handset commitments for the course of the year are gonna be down. Third, the capital program and where we are. We did a lot of work in the fourth quarter of last year. A lot of that rolls into payments that get made in the first quarter. First quarter was a bit hotter than what it will be for us to kind of ultimately come in at the guide that we've given you on capital investments. You should expect that that's going to be a delta as we move through the course of the year. These are things, handsets, capital. The. We're not talking about 30-day visibility into these.
Decisions that we're making right now are for the balance of the year on capital. It's got long lead times. You don't just wake up in November and say, "Gee, I think I'm gonna go spend money in December." You're making money decisions in May for money that you're gonna spend in November and December. On handsets, you know, you're 120 days out, plus on ordering. You know what you're ordering, and you have your forecast and what you're doing. We have good visibility on this stuff, and when you roll it all through the numbers, that's why we're confident in our $16 billion or better guide.
The only other thing I wanted to hit was last year, there was a working capital drag in the second quarter that we talked about. Is there anything going on in sort of working capital drag or bad debt that we should be thinking about in the business today?
I see nothing that, you know, is going to be out of pattern. Our debt levels, our bad debt levels, and our collection levels are all perfectly consistent with what we'd expect. They're all moving in a ratable fashion to our customer growth. Yeah, there can be a little bit more bad debt, but it's totally ratable till you bring on more customers, and there's gonna be a little bit more bad debt. Nothing out of pattern to historic levels. Nothing that we've done in changing credit quality. We've always had a high-quality postpaid customer base. It's one reason why we have the industry-best postpaid churn on, you know, voice. I see nothing that is any different about that, nor have customer dynamics around payment changed in any way, shape, or form.
Okay. I'll leave you alone on that one. let's finish it up with.
Just come back again in 60 days.
360 at least. Let's finish up with you're three years into being CEO of AT&T. What are you excited about for the next three years?
It's interesting you characterize it that way, 'cause I actually I've gotten to this habit of kind of thinking about this as three-year chapters. And, you know, where you started this conversation is, you know, we restructured the asset base of the business. We spent a year now trying to get that asset base moving in the direction you want it to move, and I think it's kind of been a block of things that we've had to do. I think the next three years is really about perfecting that set of plays. It's about getting that asset base to industry-best return characteristics, customer-best metrics, brand-best support in the market.
It is about getting all those things that I think we've put a lot of time and effort in how we needed to reposition and restructure the business and refining the plays to excellence. In addition to having to do it that way, part of refining the plays to excellence is getting the next level of distraction out, which is backing away from those legacy historic products and the legacy-capped infrastructure that served us well, has been great for the business, but adds a degree of complexity and drag into the business, that as we start to sunset square mileage, central offices, products, we become a lot more agile in what we can do.
A lot of the stuff that comes along with maintaining that and operating that and having to worry about that drops away, and you get a more and more focused business moving forward. This doesn't sound really sexy, but I want capital allocation to get our balance sheet in order and make sure that we get the flexibility back that we need to have to operate in this industry. It's about continuing to invest in those growth platforms, and it's about refining our execution on operation to literally get to the point that we're best in industry. When those things happen, you then have an opportunity to go look at what other things you wanna do with the business and where you wanna go. As I talk about with the management team, let's not overdrive our headlights.
Let's earn what we need to earn first, which is to run this business well.
That's a good place to stop. Thanks, John.
Thanks for having me in, Phil. Appreciate it.
Thanks, everybody. Thanks for sticking around.