Good morning. We're going to get started here. Thank you all for participating, and those of you live on the web here, thank you for your participation. My name is Michael Thomson. I am the President and Chief Operating Officer at Unisys Corporation. Effective 4/1, I will be the next Chief Executive Officer of Unisys Corporation. Happy to get to know some of you here, and some I know already, and others we'll meet along the way. My goal for today, obviously, is to give you a little bit of insight into the Unisys Corporation, what we do, how we do it, where we do it, that type of thing, and what differentiates us.
I think we'll have some time at the back end here for a little bit of Q&A if there are any questions in the room, and clearly we're available all day for one-on-ones as well. Without further ado, let me just jump in a little bit to the company, what we do, how we do it, etc. We are a full-service IT outsource provider, right, for solutions and for services. You can see from the presentation here elements on the screen in relation to what that means. It's highly complex, highly technical from a perspective of what we do, and I don't, you know, clearly we've got the consultancy words on the screen here, but I like to talk a little bit more in kind of plain English about what that means and the level of complexity that we help to support for our clients' point of view.
That is everything really from the front end of the process when you talk about installation and field service and break/fix and frontline worker components of the organization, stepping through the infrastructure into hybrid multi-cloud infrastructure support. That's anything from the installation and cloud transformation all the way down to the managed services component of that. Look, we don't have a client that doesn't have essentially a hybrid multi-cloud, which means they've got some level of on-prem, they've got some level of AI tower, there'll be some level of single cloud, multi-cloud, private cloud environment. We manage the entire estate from that perspective. If you're thinking about how that steps through the stack, there's also an element of that for like a data abstraction layer, what we do in regards to large language models or small language models, data models, compute in that level, the movement forward in that.
If you think about the application tier, what we do on the app side, apps modernization, apps development, apps migration from a cloud perspective, and stepping forward all the way through to service desk and user experience, talking about how we bring that experience to the endpoint, and everything in between when you think about collaboration, the management perspective of not only the utilization of hardware and software in that environment, but also really talking about the management of all of the partners in that ecosystem. We're going to talk about a handful of the folks that we use in that space, but, you know, clearly they're in relation to our clients. For some of that, we do everything in that stack for and manage the entire ecosystem. And for many of our clients who are enterprise clients or global clients or public clients, we do certain elements of that.
We fit into that ecosystem but have the capability to do the entire stack from that perspective. How we go to market. We essentially go to market as a one Unisys perspective. We'll look at that through the lens of kind of a total company view. A lot of it is really determined on how we interface with that client, whether it's coming in through an RFP or we're looking for specific project work or we're working directly with an existing client. These are the segments that you would see from an external reporting perspective when you think about how we do it. You can look at the breadcrumbs along the bottom, and it gives you a little bit of sense of what's happening in each one of those segments. Again, our go-to-market is structured on a total company basis.
Our segments are structured really in how we deliver those, so as I mentioned earlier, for some cases, we deliver the entire stack to a client, and this is transparent to them, but in a lot of cases, we're doing pieces of that, and this is probably better aligned to our competitors, and we'll talk a little bit about who our competitors are and how they align to these various segments, but again, you can see along the bottom here, it's traditionally kind of a multi-cloud type of environment. You've got your application layer, your data layer, your end-user layer, and the experience component that resides at that end-user layer is how we're kind of dealing with the first two segments, and the third segment is a little unique to Unisys. It's really about our high-intensity, high-compute license and support model and our ClearPath Forward.
We're going to talk about that a little bit, and we do have some, you know, essentially our own IP in regards to what's happening from an industry solutions point of view, and I'll touch on some of those elements as well. Thinking just stepping through those segments, trying to give you a little bit more of a sense of the types of things that are happening individually in each one of those segments and kind of how much of our company that makes up, so starting out here just in alphabetical order is the Cloud Applications and Infrastructure segment. That particular segment makes up about 30% of our business and runs roughly around 17% gross margin currently. I'll talk a little bit about what some of the opportunities are to enhance our margin profile and our cash flow profile.
I think when I go through these first two segments, those are areas where we think we really have some opportunity to continue to enhance the margin profile of our business and extend the growth of our business. You can see through the circle here some of the elements of that, but again, pretty high level. What I wanted to point out really was some of the elements on the priority side and how we think about the cloud application infrastructure business. I thought it was helpful to pull out some of those things that differentiate us in our mind as far as our platforms and our go-to-market perspective. Starting just at the top there with our Intelligent Operations . You know, we hear all day around how AI is impacting the world, how we bring it to life.
From our point of view, it's really up in that upper right-hand corner, and it's not something new to Unisys or frankly something new to the market. It's really about how we can orchestrate and automate the ecosystem that I'm talking about. Whether it is a multi-partner ecosystem, whether it is a multi-tenant ecosystem, whether it's private, public, on-prem, cloud, whatever, right, someone has to orchestrate all of that activity together. In the old world, when you think about the utilization of an ITO outsourcer, it was really more in the lines of your mess for less, right? They were looking for someone to do all of the work that the IT departments do, and they wanted it done cheaper. That was really the mindset of CIOs in the world of old.
Today, they still want an economic way to deliver that, but to keep up with the technology, to keep up with the new providers that are in the space, to keep up with the new tech, whether it's software or hardware, and also to be able to organize and manage all of that. If you think about how difficult that is for an IT service provider to do that, think about how difficult that is for a company that is doing that internally and keeping up with that level of expertise. And so, when you kind of scroll down the list here and you think about the areas of importance, one is the orchestration of all of that, as I've mentioned. The other is the data layer, right?
When we talk about AI today and specifically GenAI today, it's really about a data model, and it's about the organization of that data model. And so, we have this whole abstraction layer, whether it's from the application side of the house or it's below the hypervisor in the infrastructure side of the house, or it's data telemetry from the end user, that entire data ecosystem is really what we talk about when we think about AI, both at the compute level locally and at the edge when you talk about small language models or compute level on the edge. So, that whole data abstraction level is really important. I just saw an article a week or so ago in the journal about the most important thing from a CIO's perspective or what's on their mind or their biggest concern. Still, cyber, not going to change.
It is a huge element of what's going on in the world today and probably where we're all most exposed, so the managed security services sits within this particular segment from our perspective. That's running SOCs and SIEMs and kind of understanding the threat landscape, preventing issues, etc., reaction to issues. And again, that ecosystem, those issues can happen anywhere up and down that chain, so whether you own it or not doesn't mean whether or not from our client's perspective we're supporting the facilitation of managing their security. All of that done, you see an overlay here for the Intelligence Accelerator. That's our GenAI model that kind of looks around the landscape for, I'll say, self-healing and prevention and opportunities for support of the overall ecosystem.
As I mentioned, we do have some industry vertical expertise in certain areas as well as some of our own IP in those areas. A lot of that apps work or all of that apps work happens out of this particular segment. Next segment here that I want to talk about is our Digital Workplace Solutions. This is kind of our bread and butter. When you think about it through the lens of end user experience, you see right at the upper left, again, this is about 30% of our business. This is sitting currently at about a 16% gross margin profile. You can see around the wheel again the types of things that happen in here. This, to me, is the area of real potential growth from the company's point of view.
This is the area where we are most differentiated as far as the company is concerned. You know, if you look at the bottom left here and we talk about XLAs, I don't know how familiar you are with XLAs. Everyone's familiar with SLAs or service level agreements. XLAs are experience level agreements, and we try to really work with our teams and our clients to get beyond just the application of meeting the contract requirements of a service level agreement. We like to talk about that through the lens of the experience, how that ultimately creates productivity for our clients and their associates, and that productivity can be in the form of uptime. It can be in the form of people productivity.
It can be in the form of just kind of ecosystem and extends well beyond just what you would think of as the traditional PC and the feed into the PC, right? Some of that has to do with the physical environment, the conference rooms management that has to do with the server that has to do with unified communication. So, that experience or the data telemetry that we bring into that experience extends beyond just the physical component of IT. And in some cases, we're actually bringing in experience outside of IT. So, it might be data telemetry from other departments within the company and how they interrelate so that we can get to an algorithm that really talks about the overall company profitability. So, that's what I meant about the extension of the legacy ITO environment to this environment.
It's much more akin to how we can make the client businesses more profitable, more successful, and the more data telemetry elements you can get into that equation, and the more, I'll say, joins that you can make in that data, the more information you can provide to run the business in a more effective way. This looks simple, right, when you talk about field services even or frontline worker, but if you think about today's world, that includes things like new racking and liquid cooling and air cooling to support the AI towers of today, so there's a continual skill update that has to happen from an industry perspective. We think we're leading the edge in that. You think about something as simple as asset management or inventory management, Active Directory management, and how all of that happens. That's embedded in this organization.
Probably one of the most, I'll say, easiest use cases when you talk about GenAI is knowledge management. Here's a great example of what we're doing from a GenAI perspective in the utilization of knowledge management, how that ties to a service desk, how that ties to deflection of issues, how that ties to resolution of issues from a bot perspective, if you will. All of that embedded in our knowledge management and on our DWS offerings here, which is full lifecycle of hardware, right? Whether it's at the server side and infrastructure or whether it's at the end user side as far as endpoints are concerned. All of that's embedded in our DWS solutions. Here we're talking about the last of the three segments, which is our Enterprise Computing Solutions .
This is predominantly our ClearPath Forward operating system that went into production somewhere in the mid-80s, probably 1986. So, it's been around for quite a long time. Many, many countries and companies utilize this as the backbone for what we do. We process mortgage processing for entire countries. We do a trillion transactions a day in one of our financial services. We run identification processing for full countries. You know, this is a mega scale type of platform. And a lot of our clients have hundreds and hundreds of applications written on top of that operating system, which we also support. So, there is a component piece of this from a real sticky point of view that's important and a margin point of view, which is really important.
You can see here the gross margin on this business is roughly in the 58% range, which is pretty lucrative for us. Also, about 30% of our total company. I'm going to just put your mind's eye here to the middle of this stack on the right-hand side. We think about something a little bit more futuristic and where some growth is coming from. This post-quantum cryptography, I think we're all kind of aware of it's coming, and when the hardware is able to break encryption, you know, if you're not prepared for it, you're going to be in deep trouble, right? So, when you look in this particular area here, that's, you know, I look at this group as kind of our egghead group. This is where we put a lot of the data scientists. This is where we build a lot of our IP.
This is where a lot of our expertise sits as far as our own IP, our industries are concerned. They're looking around the corner to understand the implication not only of AI, but of quantum and how that aligns to our business. And a good example of that is our Unisys Logistics Optimization element that sits within this particular segment. That's really a kind of a multimodal viewpoint into logistics operations that includes both traditional compute, AI, and quantum to actually solve some of these logistics issues. So, I wanted to just give you, you know, the typical NASCAR slide, right, where you see the logos of some of the clients that we have. This is obviously a very small subset of what that is. I mean, we've been in business for over 150 years. I think we're 152 years at this point.
And so, you don't stay in business for that long if you're not able to reinvent yourself time and time again. When I look at our top 30 clients as an example, we service those clients for about 19.8 years on average. So, it's, and some of those clients are two to three years into the population. So, some we've been servicing for 40 years and some we've been servicing for a couple of years in that top 30 listing. But as you can see by the names on the board here, there are a lot of very prestigious clients and we're thrilled to have the ecosystem that we do. I think this is a really nice slide in the construct of giving you a sense of diversity and diversity from a whole multitude of lenses here, both from our segments.
As I mentioned, they're pretty evenly split as far as how that work gets distributed. From a geography perspective, we're about 50-50 or 45-60 or 60-40 in regards to the US&C versus the rest of the world. So, there's a pretty nice geography split here. From a commercial orientation, you can see about a third, a third, a third between public sector, financial services, and commercial. So, again, I mean, to me, what this really says in as far as that diversity is concerned is that we don't have all our eggs in one basket, right? We don't have one client that's driving our financial future. We don't have one region, one market, one product, one segment. Everybody kind of contributes equally to that.
I think it makes us, I won't say recession proof, but, you know, it certainly gets us in a position that regardless of what's going on in the markets or regardless of what's going on in the industry and any geography, you know, we have a pretty good balanced mix. The bottom element here and what you see on the left, I think it's really important. About 80% of our revenues are recurring and most of like next year's revenues in backlog already, right? So, we don't have this huge go get every year to try to grow, you know, or to try to maintain the business. Our go get is really around how we grow the business, not necessarily how we maintain our base. So, we have a really sticky base.
As you can see here, we have a pretty strong base as far as recurring revenues are concerned. Most of those contracts run between three and seven years. So, the contract cycles differ. But on average, this is what you see. When we talk about our business, I gave you the segment composition of our business. Another way that we think about our business is Ex-L&S versus L&S. So, what does that mean? L&S is our licensing and service component that is the services of our licensing. So, that's predominantly ClearPath Forward. That was all embedded in the ECS segment that we went through. That's about 20% of the business. I focus most of my efforts on the Ex-L&S side of the business. That's where I think there's a lot of growth opportunity to ultimately continue to grow this business.
That is basically everything other than licensing, right? The licensing's pretty flat and has been for a long time. It's about $370 million book of business. Again, I talked about that being in the 58% gross margin viewpoint there. That's about what we average on a regular basis over the last decade. That's about what we expect to average over the next couple of years along the lines of that $370 million on the L&S side. But the other opportunities are really sitting in that 80% bucket. And that's where we expect to continue to grow our market share. I talked a little bit about how important the client ecosystem is or the partner ecosystem is. This gives you a little bit of a sense of the types of partners that we utilize. And some of those are indigenous to certain elements of the organization.
So, the best example I could give you, just to give you a mind's eye view of what that looks like, if you think about a security stack, if you will, you might have Proofpoint at the top end of that in regards to email and phishing, et cetera. You might use somebody like CrowdStrike to do the threat identification landscape. You might use somebody like Splunk to, you know, manage the data logs and those types of things. When you think about this ecosystem, this is what a current CIO has to face on their own if they don't have a partner like us. These things and these companies change on a regular basis. Part of our niche here is that we're basically homogeneous as to who you use or how you use it. We have OEM relationships.
You know, when you think about the hardware component of that, we work with all of the cloud providers. And we have all of these kind of individualized providers that kind of sit within different elements of that stack. And we orchestrate that. So, not only can we be solution implementers for this type of thing, but when it comes down to bringing that to our clients, what we look at is how we can take this group, utilize their IP, utilize their creativity in how their particular softwares are being developed, establish them in a stack, look at our clients' technical debt where they're already using some of this, and give them a real, I'll say, cost advantage way to take advantage of this level of technology. And we can coordinate and orchestrate all of that through our platforms.
They have a single throat to choke from our perspective. We have the ability here to partner and to some degree get pricing benefits to our clients because we deal with these folks in a volume way versus a one-off way. A good example. This is a snippet of what's out there, to be honest. There are hundreds and thousands of these players out there. What we try to do is find the one or two that are, you know, I'll say, tried and tested and proven. Then we look also for who's the up-and-comer. We try to make sure that our platforms can accommodate both sides of that coin and bring variety and, you know, essentially something to our clients that goes beyond what they could do themselves. Couldn't have a discussion without talking about AI specifically.
I wanted to give a little bit of a viewpoint into how we think about AI and what it means to us. You can see around the wheel here, there's multiple elements to it, right? One is really about setting strategy and data and governance. We have an AI practice that kind of does that and works with, you know, whether it's our CIOs or CTOs of our respective clients to help them figure out what is the right way for them to deploy this technology into their environments. The other element, if you follow the wheel around data services, which I mentioned earlier, there's kind of a whole data abstraction layer. The more you have in it, obviously more benefit you can get from it, right?
So, that's infrastructure data, that's application data, that's outside data, that's structured data, that's unstructured data. How do you bring all of that together? You know, I've come across an interesting statistic over the last six months or so. When we think about where data exists, data exists on-prem. About 70% of the world's data still sits on-prem. So, if you think about that, does it make more sense to take the data to the AI or the AI to the data? It is very costly to take the data to the AI and put it up in the cloud, right? So, the important thing is really to, you know, back to the, I'll say, tried and true methodologies that when you think about master data management, that holds true here and is the precursor to utilization of AI.
If your data is not in a manner that you can use it, it's useless, right? So, really, we think about that data architecture, both from the application layer, the infrastructure layer, and the models that are used and where you want to do that compute. You know, I talked a little bit about edge computing, but in my opinion, I think we're going to get more and more of that type of philosophy going forward, right? You want to convert large language models with AI tokens to small language models and do that computing at the edge. You have GPUs now at the edge and servers. You have GPUs sitting in PCs at the edge, right? So, the idea here is to get what's needed at the edge for fast compute and have that done in a most cost-effective manner.
If you're not using a company like us to help you manage that and you go with a single partner where they're going to thread you everything through their product, we don't care which public cloud you use. We don't care what sits private. We don't care what's on-prem. What we care about is the throughput, the accuracy, the security of the data, and what's best for our clients. And I think that gives us that kind of homogeneous view of the entire landscape and how we ultimately work through that. You see here, you know, all of that sits under this base of managed services for everything I've just described, including the security component of that. And then we have, you know, specific solutions, as I've mentioned, ULO already or Unisys Logistics Optimization as one of those solutions that is an AI indicator.
So, again, I think what we see in the world today is what is the ROI of AI, right? And people are struggling with that. But there are at least three or four very specific use cases that are out there. We have one of them in our logistics component. But if you think about where it's being used in a more macro way, certainly in the advertising and marketing space, certainly in knowledge management, as we've talked about earlier today. And then the other component of that might be something like these new solutions, these logistics optimizations. Healthcare has some pretty interesting use cases as well. But, you know, still early days as far as GenAI is concerned. But we're at least a decade into the AI environment. And I think we've embedded that into all of our solutions.
It's just basically how we work, whether we talk about AIOps , whether we talk about the application of GenAI and our thought leadership or thought management or all areas where we're trying to support that ecosystem. So, where are we here? So, Peter Altabef, who is our current CEO, which again, will be retiring in April, and I'll be taking that on. And I joined the company in 2015. I would say in 2020 is the first opportunity that we were able to actually start to change the trajectory of this company. I've owned the strategy of the company for the last couple of years, probably really since 2021 when we started to put our new strategy together. Peter and I were kind of the architects of that. And then ultimately taking that through to 2025. So, what did we have to do at that point?
We had to basically deal with this existential threat of the pension overhang that we had. Roughly, it was about $267 million a year that we were paying prior to 2020. That number has come down considerably over time. We sold off a piece of our business. We pre-funded a lot of that pension exposure to minimize any cash contributions that are coming out of the business. We upgraded our solutions. We reestablished our go-to-market. We put together a new branding strategy. All of that, you know, was coming through 2021, 2022. Updated our segment structure. The segment structure that I showed you earlier was a byproduct of what came out of this transformation. And to me, going through 2023 and into 2024, we're now starting to see the pipeline build, the backlog build, the benefit of our branding, the benefit of our targeted marketing campaigns, et cetera.
We're also in a pretty interesting, I'll say, competitor landscape where a handful of some of our bigger competitors, if you look back 2020 and earlier, are really either exiting this space in some areas and/or there's opportunities because of their own financial issues or where they're going. So, we think that from a maturity of our strategy and planning perspective, that we're pretty excited about where we're at, moving our arena here now into free cash flow and positive cash flow, looking at improvements in our operating margins and, you know, that generating that cash flow. And ultimately have an opportunity upcoming here to deleverage the pension even further, you know, in the context of some of the things that we're doing around our debt.
And so, I'll talk a little bit about that and hopefully have an opportunity to talk with some of you one-on-one about that as well. You can see where I think our opportunities lie. Clearly, there are Ex-L&S. We talked about Ex-L&S being everything other than L&S. Predominantly, that's DWS and CA&I. When we talk about that Ex-L&S portfolio, I think there's several points of margin improvement over the next couple of years in relation to that business, all of which flowing through to the bottom line, enhancing our profitability, enhancing our cash flows, et cetera. I think we've got a really good winning solution when we talk about our solutions themselves. You'll see that in a minute or two when we see what the market says about our solutions. So, don't take my word for it. Take theirs. We'll continue to invest in our platform.
We are sufficiently funded to continue to make sure that our solutions stay current. That's an important element to that. I talked about expanded profitability and cash flow. And we have, you know, a very manageable, sustainable capital structure. And we'll talk about some opportunities there as well. So, as I said, not a real big thing from my perspective. I don't have to toot my own horn. Here's the main who's who of the world saying who we are, what we do. You can see ISG, NelsonHall, Gartner, Everest, Avasant, IDC on almost every one of these guys who are sitting in leader, challenger, or contributor into that market. So, this doesn't happen overnight. It takes years to kind of get these guys aligned to what we're doing.
If I were to dial this back to 2021 when we started our new strategy, it would have been a much sparser slide. I think we were probably a leader in three or four areas across the board here. But over time, with what we've done with our solutions and bringing those to clients, what we've done in the market, what we've done with our branding, what we've done with these industry analysts as well as the industry advisors, you can see we continue to make significant progress. Green arrows there obviously indicating upticks from the prior year. But really proud of this slide. I think the team has worked really hard to get our solutions now well beyond fit for purpose, right? We're leading in a lot of these areas, especially when you talk about experience or XLAs and the experience viewpoint within DWS.
Talked a little bit about some of our backlog and what's going on in the markets today. I think these numbers fairly speak for themselves and pretty impressive. Our new business, TCV. So, new business for us is new logo, new scope, and expansion of our existing base. But you can see, you know, what the year-to-date uptick is there. Significant increase in new logos. Again, takes time to get that engine going. Takes time to build that pipeline. Remember, these contracts don't come up every year. So, sometimes you're just waiting for the next contract cycle to hit. Significant improvement in our backlog, both the total company and our Ex-L&S backlog. So, again, I think really speaks to kind of the trajectory of the company, and I talked a little bit about our capital allocation and overall, you know, how we think about that.
Again, profitability is the driver to free cash flow. Free cash flow and everything that you've seen on the slide has been through essentially organic growth. We did some acquisitions in 2021, but all of the growth in the pipeline. Those acquisitions were more about acquiring either people or solutions, not necessarily market. These are really talking about our organic growth on a market perspective. We think we are going to be in a good position when we end up ultimately refinancing our debt and talking about what that will enable us to do, perhaps even upsizing some of that and then addressing the pension with those proceeds.
We think we have some real good opportunity there to get us back into a position where we'll be immunizing or looking to reduce that pension contributions or maybe even eliminate some of those future pension contributions and allow us to put all of that money back into the business, and M&A is always an opportunity for us, whether that's a point M&A or that's a scale M&A, but, you know, certainly something we look at on a regular basis, and in some point in the future, whether that's short-term or mid-term, we do think we'll be in a position where we should be able to think about some level of capital return.
So, from an equity point of view, whether that's in buybacks or whether that's in a dividend, to me, that gets us to a point where we're normalized in the market, normalized against our competitors in this space. And that is in the roadmap for something that we're looking at. Just two seconds again on myself. I introduced in the beginning here, started in 2015 as the Chief Accounting Officer, ultimately moved to the Chief Financial Officer, then to the Chief Operating Officer, and then the next step here, effective April 1st, would be the Chief Executive Officer. The reason I put it on the slide was really to just give you all a sense of this is not new to me. This company is not new to me. The strategy that we've built has been kind of under my guidance.
And so, I'm hoping to be a great steward for the company on a prospective basis. I think that is it as far as formal presentations are concerned. Happy to take any Q&A if there's any in the room. If not, certainly look forward to speaking with some of you one-on-one. But any questions?
[audio distortion]
Very volatile.
[audio distortion]
Andrew, great question. I wish, and you know this better than anyone, but there's not a real answer that I could say it's this, right? If it was, we would have fixed that, right?
But I would say for a long time, our stock has moved with discount rates and has kind of been contrary from a pension hedging perspective, if you will. I think the reason we broke the company out between L&S and Ex-L&S is exactly your point. There is a volatility to the L&S business in the sense that if it's a high renewal year, it's great. Big revenues, big cash flows, big profit. If it's a low renewal year, it looks like you're falling off a cliff, right, in regards to that. We try to look at that through a 10-year lens and go, on average, this is going to work out to be $370 million. So, the volatility in that certainly triggers quant selling or anything else, right? So, we've heard everything under the sun around what that volatility looks like.
From our perspective, what we can manage, we manage. And then ultimately, what we're really focused on is still dealing with that pension, taking that off the table, focusing the investors on Ex-L&S and that core business and how we can grow that core business. And we hope that that will stabilize that. I personally believe, and I think many of you believe, certainly some of our investors or most of our long-term holders believe that we're an undervalued stock and that we think that there's a real value uptick. And dealing with the pension is going to give us some of that. But seeing that pipeline of continued growth in the Ex-L&S business will give us a lot more of that. But we're looking to less volatility and brighter days.
[audio distortion]
The cross-selling is not necessarily Ex-L&S and L&S.
It's across the segment. So, there's definitely a lot of cross-selling engaged there. Clearly, the more cross-selling you do, the stickier the business is and the better the profitability is. I would say in 2021, we were about 30-ish% cross-sold. We're probably in the 34-ish%, 35% today. But I will tell you that most of our new logo opportunities are coming in already with multiple segments and crossing the spectrum of the types of things that we've seen there.
[audio distortion]
Probably the only public comp on the L&S side of the business would be IBM, right, in that regard. On the Ex-L&S side, it's really mixed between those segments. So, if I look at DWS, I would say it's the Atos, DXCs, Kyndryls of the world.
And if you look at CA&I, it's really the Accenture, the Deloitte, the Capgemini, you know, those types of things. So, they're very different businesses with very different business models. And I think that's part of our uniqueness that we can kind of cover the whole spectrum without going out and getting multiple providers to do that. But thank you. Great, great questions. Anything else in the room? Great. Well, thank you all. Really appreciate your time. Hope you picked up some good tidbits about Unisys and look forward to talking to you guys.