Very pleased to have Wells Fargo once again at this conference. Representing the company, Mike Santomassimo, Chief Financial Officer. Mike, thanks for joining us this morning.
Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Maybe the best place to start, just big picture, U.S. economy's been resilient. Obviously, uncertainties. Fed, I'm told, is going to hike tomorrow. Geopolitical backdrop, who knows? AI build-out impacting things. Just maybe just talk to how your customer base, consumer, commercial, is holding up in this environment. What are you watching most closely from a macro perspective as we look at the remainder of the year?
Yeah. Despite all the noise that's out there, it's been quite good, in short. I think when you look at the consumer side, I've stopped using this word resilient, because it's just strong. The activity levels have just been strong now consistently for a while. We see spend up across the debit and credit card products every week, year-on-year. Categories move around. Sometimes, as oil or gas prices go up, it shifts a little bit, in terms of the spending.
That is still sort of like a 3%-5% of spend, depending on who you are. There is still quite strong spending across the board, and it has just not been changing really at all. You couple that with really good credit performance. Debt-to-income levels are quite good overall across the client base. We are not seeing changes in delinquency trends that would sort of lead you to believe there is more credit issues coming. Payment levels across the card space are quite high historically and not really changing.
I think as long as you have got the economy continuing to grow, call it 2%-2.5% this year, depending on who you sort of look at. You have got a really strong sort of employment picture, with unemployment still quite low. You have got wages keeping up with inflation for the most part across most customer bases. It is hard to see sort of what is going to be the catalyst for that to change at this point. I am not sure a small increase in rates is the catalyst at this point. We are not expecting that to be the case. When you look at the commercial side, again, still good performance.
I would say that commercial banking, middle-market-type customer is still being pretty cautious and prudent. We are not seeing big increases in utilization across revolvers at this point. I know we will talk about loan growth later, but that is not what is driving sort of the loan growth we are seeing. You look at the commercial customer base, still quite healthy. Good liquidity. We are not seeing any systemic credit issues sort of pop through. It leads you to believe the rest of the year should be quite constructive, I think, still.
I think you have got to look at the obvious markers, whether you start to see changes in unemployment sort of tick up on the consumer side, and you sort of start to see stresses across the commercial side. But it is just not what we are seeing at this point. I think that leads you to believe that the second half and into early next year should be still quite healthy.
Sounds good. I guess middle of last year, the asset cap finally came off, final consent order removed in March. So, positive milestones there. Just how has the removal of those constraints changed the way you think about growth, investment opportunities, capital deployment?
Well, first, it is a different place. You cannot say it any other way, right? I think as a lot of the work that went into it over many years to solve all the issues across the many consent orders we had. It does feel like a very different place. I think in a lot of respects, there is a lot of excitement around the growth opportunity that we have there. I think the way we have been thinking about it is the same thing we have been working on now for the last number of years. We started the investment agenda four, five, six years ago, depending on sort of the area of the product.
A lot of the growth that we are going to see across the investment bank, the wealth management business, the card business, the broader consumer franchise across the bank branches and wealth management that we do in those branches is what is going to drive growth. I think you are starting to see some of that come through. The balance sheet has grown a bunch since last year. We saw really good growth across all of the businesses last quarter, bar none, really, in terms of what we are seeing, in terms of some of the improvement.
We saw a good uptick in core checking account growth. We saw good flows into the wealth management business. We saw good i-banking activity levels, good markets revenues, and activity across the client base. We still have a ton more to do and a ton more opportunity to go after, but we are starting to see some of that come through, and it is exciting to see sort of how the team is executing every quarter and going after it.
Got it. I guess, against this backdrop, I guess we have seen pretty good growth in trading assets and loans. I think every major category outside of mortgages are up in the first half. As you start to think about the second half, maybe talk to the loan environment. I know you were kind of guided to mid-single digit year-over-year growth by the fourth quarter, but I think we are up, like, 12% in the first half. Just how do you think about the trajectories from here? Just maybe touch about the competitive landscape.
Yeah. Look, we're super happy that we had such good growth in the first half. Whether it's card, auto, the commercial portfolios really all saw some good growth. We did see a very consistent home lending portfolio as well in the first half, after a number of years of that getting right-sized. Overall, the activity was quite good. As we said in July, we didn't expect the 12% to continue for the whole year. While we'll likely be better than where we guided in the first part of the year, it'll be a little bit lower than what that 12% number, certainly for the full year.
I think that'll set us up well as we go into next year. Activity levels are still pretty good. We're seeing good new client acquisition in the commercial bank as we've added a couple hundred commercial bankers over the last couple of years. We're seeing growth across the corporate investment bank and then just continued growth across the card and the auto portfolios. I think the growth rate will get a little bit lower than what we saw in the first half.
Got it. Then maybe on just deposits. There, too, you've kind of been running ahead of the mid-single digit target you talked about, although mix is maybe more secured to interest-bearing, perhaps, than originally anticipated. If I look at deposit cost, though, you definitely have seen, I guess, underperformance versus peers on that one metric. Maybe just talk to what's driving mix, what's driving price, and just how we think about growth, mix, pricing as we move forward from here.
Yeah. While we were under the asset cap, we just couldn't grow the commercial deposit base the way that others could over the last number of years. It's actually quite good to see the traction that we've got with clients since the asset cap's gone away, where we've been able to grow a lot of that operating business both across the commercial bank, corporate investment bank. Year- on- year, the wealth management deposits are up. We're seeing really good activity levels across the whole franchise, which is great to see.
As we talked about a number of quarters, the first place you're going to see that growth is in the interest-bearing deposits. Primarily because it's where we saw the biggest dollar growth is the commercial side. That's just where you're going to see some of that growth come through first. These are really good relationships, really good return over a very long period of time. They bring operating business. They bring the opportunity to get fees. They bring the opportunity to get more non-interest bearing over time as you sort of grow the payments business and other things you do with these customers.
That just has a mathematical impact on deposit cost, right? If you're growing interest-bearing faster and non-interest-bearing are sort of pretty stable, then you're going to see an increase in the deposit cost. That's actually a good thing, I think, over a long period of time, as we start to see a really good traction across deposit acquisition across each of these businesses, which is great to see. I think we still have a lot of opportunity to grow on the interest-bearing side.
Over a longer period of time, you'll see new checking account growth and growth in the consumer business grow, the non-interest bearing, or the low sort of basis point sort of savings products as well on the consumer side. As we grow our operating business and the payments business, you'll see more of those non-interest bearings grow across the commercial side as well. Those just take a little bit longer to sort of come through. We're seeing really good uptick in activity across those parts of the business as well.
Got it. I guess maybe sticking with deposits for a second. I know you recently launched a tokenized deposit product. Maybe just talk about that product. Is that something that there's customer demand for? Just how do you see that opportunity evolving over time? Just maybe more broadly, what's your view of tokenized deposits alongside stablecoins and just how you see this playing out? There's a lot of-
Yeah.
...questions out there.
Yeah, there's a lot going on in that space. The conversation internally started with how do we do a better job helping our primarily U.S.-based customers, how do we serve their cross-border needs much better? Whether it's increasing operating hours or providing more transparency in terms of the uncertainty around when the payment's going to get there. The blockchain technology and the tokenized deposit was the best technology to help us solve some of those problems and some of the client needs there.
That's where we've really focused. It's not about optimizing our internal network. It's not about optimizing our own treasury needs. It really is just going straight to how do you do a better job helping clients meet the needs they have across their cross-border payments. I think that's what we're really focused on, and we're excited. It's going to launch in production next week, so we'll start doing payments, and it'll scale and get much broader over the coming quarters.
I think there's a real need there to provide better, more transparent cross-border payments. It allows us to tackle an addressable market that is probably much bigger than we could have using traditional rails, given our lack of a global branch network that others might have. So it should increase our addressable market quite substantially, help us do a better job with customers' cross-border needs. So it's kind of a win-win, I think, overall. I think the focus there, if you then contrast that to stablecoins, is there a role for stablecoins in the payment ecosystem? Maybe.
It's likely going to be in places like cross-border remittance where you're sending U.S. dollars to a country that's got high inflation or other issues within their underlying economy, and the recipient wants to hold $1 denominated asset. So there could be some limited use cases there. But I think these things will likely complement each other over time.
Got it. Maybe kind of shifting back to the income statement. When we touch on this, we're going to talk about deposits. But NIM was down 13 basis points in the first quarter, 4 basis points in the second quarter. I think you talked about 3Q having a similar decline to 2Q, and then stabilizing in the fourth quarter. Is that still the right way to think about it? Just kind of looking out beyond that, just ultimately, what do you think drives stabilization, expansion, kind of plus and takes, and where should we focus?
Yeah, look, I think as we sit here today, with a couple of months of the quarter through, and we think about NIM, it will be a little better than we thought. I think we came into the quarter thinking it would be down 3 basis points or 4 basis points. It is likely to be maybe down 1 basis points, maybe flat. It will be pretty close to that as we look, and so we will see how the last few weeks shape up in terms of the end of the quarter. But it will be better. And I think when you start looking at what some of the things that are happening, we continue to get a grind up of yields across the asset side of the balance sheet.
Higher rates have certainly been a little bit helpful as you look at some of that. When you got growth across the card book or the auto book or a lot of the lending portfolios, you are continuing to see a little bit of a grind up in yields. And then, as we reinvest the securities portfolio, we are picking up some yield there as well. On the market side of the balance sheet, we have talked about this a lot, but we continue to get more efficient on the balance sheet. As we continue to grow in the equity finance side, you get better netting and you get more efficient there.
On the fixed income side, we can do more efficient ways to implement repo, like sponsored repo and other products where you get a lot of netting benefit. We are a little bit ahead of maybe where we thought we would be in terms of getting some of those benefits come through across the markets business. It is actually quite constructive, I think, given what we are seeing. We are still growing at a good pace, but it is just more efficient use of the overall balance sheet across those businesses. As you look forward, our view is the same. We expect it to be pretty stable as we go into the fourth quarter.
If you separate markets from the banking book, in the third quarter, the banking book is going to be pretty stable to the second quarter. And I think that stability continues as you go into the fourth quarter. Over a longer period of time, you should see some expansion, but it is all the things that we have talked about in terms of loan growth. You get the benefit of asset repricing as you continue to have higher rates for longer. As we grow the underlying businesses across the consumer and the commercial side, you will start to see some of that come through, not only in NII, but NIM as well.
I guess with the Fed potentially hiking tomorrow and maybe more so into next year, or later this year, just how does that Is that good for Wells Fargo, bad for Wells Fargo? I know the 10 year broke 5% yesterday. Just maybe talk about what is the best interest rate environment, just how that impacts you.
Look, I think obviously some steepness to the yield curve would be helpful, right? That has been a little volatile. As you sort of look at if the Fed increases 25 basis points, we are still modestly asset sensitive on the banking book. You still have some noise in the markets business, right? Higher rates mean lower NII, higher fees, and so you sort of have some differences here in terms of where we could be. I think [inaudible] I got that backwards, right? So it is lower NII, higher fees, right? In terms of as rates go up on the markets side.
So you are going to have a little bit of noise there on the markets side, but I think in the banking book, we are still modestly asset sensitive, so we will have a little benefit from higher rates. I think overall, if it is 25 basis points, I do not think that is going to be a big driver of activity one way or the other as we look at the rest of the year.
Got it. Since January, you are talking about $50 billion for the full year in NII and $2 billion of markets. Is that still the way to think about it?
Still the same. That's the update, is the same. I think it's no change. I think as we talked about the last couple of quarters, loans are a little bit better than we thought. Non-interest-bearing deposits are pretty stable. We expect a little bit of growth, but with rates a little higher, stable is, I think, a good outcome. I think overall, it still shakes out to be about that $50 billion, and about $2 billion of that is in the markets business.
I guess when you talk about loans and deposits running higher than maybe you initially expected, how much of that do you think is asset cap catch up, versus just kind of good core growth? Maybe what inning are we in of this, if it is asset cap catch up?
Yeah, look, the short answer is it's early innings of growth. The opportunity we have is much bigger and should play out over the coming years. Certainly, you'll have a little bit of catch up when you look at the markets business in terms of the pace of growth that we saw over the last four, five, six quarters. You won't see that same pace of growth that we've seen, but the opportunity is still quite big across each of the businesses. Early innings across each of the businesses in terms of really having this organic growth opportunity that we can go after.
One thing I'm just curious on in NII is just credit card. I know it's a business that you've completely revamped. You've had good growth. I know some of that growth is maybe not earning initially. How do we think about that kind of layering it over time?
Yeah, no. It's the right question. You look at what we've done, every product is brand new to the platform. As it takes two to three years for these vintages to mature. We're still sort of in that ramp phase of seeing the profitability come through. I think over the next couple of years, you'll start to see a more meaningful profit contribution from the growth that we've seen because of all the upfront costs will start to burn off from some of that growth we've seen.
We still have another new product or two that'll come as we go later in the year, mostly focused on sort of that mass market client, which has a little bit less of some of those upfront costs that they experience in some of the products that we've launched so far. I think coupled together, we're seeing really good momentum in terms of the growth, and you'll see more of that profit contribution come through over the next year or two, certainly, as the bigger vintages really start to mature more meaningfully.
Got it. Maybe kind of moving down the income statement to fee income. Growth's been strong, some of it market related and maybe cyclical, some of it structural, and initiatives you've undertaken. Maybe just kind of walk through some of the bigger items and kind of what you expect to see going forward.
Yeah. We certainly, in the first half of the year, had really good performance in our equity gains, like in our venture portfolio. I think this quarter is probably closer to flat in that portfolio. But when you look at the full year, it is about where we thought it would be in terms of the expectations. We have had roughly $850 million or so of gains, I think, in the first half of the year. When you look at that business over a long period of time, it is actually performing about where we had thought, even though you have some volatility, quarter- to- quarter, as the timing of some of that comes through.
When you start looking at the rest of the P&L, we are seeing really good performance. I think in the investment advisory fee line, the market and the growth that we have seen in the wealth business has been quite helpful as that sort of has increased quite a bit over the last couple of years. We have seen really good performance across the investment banking business as well.
You look at deposit fees growing with the underlying franchise, and sort of reoptimize there. Overall, I think you are seeing a very different level of fee generation than we saw maybe three, four, five years ago, in part due to a lot of the investments that we have made in each of the businesses over the last number of years.
Got it. I guess before we talked about just kind of the lagged profitability benefit from credit card. I guess when we think about investment banking and trading, I guess some other areas you are actively in hiring, just kind of where are you in that process? Is there a similar kind of lagged way to think about it?
Yeah. I mean, look at investment banking. We have hired 150 or so senior MDs over the last three, four years. You have seen investment banking fees go from a few $100 million a quarter to a much higher number. They were over $900 million a quarter last quarter, in the second quarter. So you have already seen this step change increase in sort of the fee generation, but it is just getting started. We have been adding more people each year. We are going to continue to invest in covering different sub-sectors within places like healthcare, TMT, and other parts.
We add in M&A and some of the equity capital market folks as well, as we sort of need to continue to grow there. But it is still, I think, very early innings. You have seen our market share go from the twos to 4.3% more recently. You have seen announced M&A lead tables. We're number six there where we were, I think, 14 a few years ago. You're seeing sort of that improvement and that pulling of market share each year. I think there's a lot more to continue to do, and we have bigger aspirations in that business.
Same thing in the markets business. We're focused primarily here in the U.S. We're serving U.S. customers. We have a little bit of activity outside the U.S. It is a little bit of a different addressable market than maybe some others are going after. When you go and talk to each of the big fee payers or clients across the street, there's a lot of appetite to do more with us. We're in the process of onboarding many of those customers or different portfolios of those customers as we speak. I think you'll see a systematic sort of growth in that business for a while.
I think the opportunity is still quite big across the CIB in general. We're going to do it in a very methodical way within our risk appetite and really drive sort of the right returns. I would just point out in the growth that we've seen so far, I think we've been able to grow the balance sheet while returns continue to get better. I think that's important. I think there was some questions of like, can you grow at the pace and still stay on that path to higher returns? I think so far so good, I think, in terms of being able to see that growth come through while returns continue to improve across the overall business.
We're going to talk about returns in a second, but maybe just as we continue our path down the income statement, turning to expenses. Beginning of the year, you got it to $55.7 billion for the year. Despite the fact the income better than expected in the first half, you kind of have stuck with that. Is that still the number in-
Still the number, $55.7 billion. Guidance is unchanged. As you point out, we are seeing higher expenses in our wealth business as a result of better performance with the equity markets and sort of the commissions that come along with a lot of that business. That's just offset by other efficiency initiatives that we continue to drive. We've been at this now for a number of years, but still very much believe that we've got a lot more to do to drive efficiency across the whole company. I think AI helps us get at things faster, differently maybe than you could have even a couple of years ago.
I think we continue just to, every month, every quarter, come in and continue to peel back that onion and look for other opportunities to keep getting more efficient. That is really what is driving the ability for us to sort of keep our expenses where they are for this year, while we have got to pay higher commission-related expenses on the wealth side.
So, very pleased with the way the team has been executing on that across the whole company, and there is a ton more still to do across really almost every function. As I said, AI just maybe helps you think about it a little bit differently, get there a little bit differently, maybe a little faster in some cases, but a tremendous amount of opportunity still to go.
I guess beyond tremendous amount, I know headcount has been down 24 straight quarters. You touched on AI. Maybe just talk to maybe some of the bigger opportunities you see, either leveraging AI within the company to get more efficient or just away from that, and just ultimately, where do you think the efficiency ratio could go?
Yeah, look, I think the obvious places where you get efficiency first is in technology. If you went back a year and a half ago, you would say where you are getting that is by using tools that help you write code more efficiently for a developer, and that would make them maybe 2x more productive, or certainly somewhere between 50% and 2x more productive, depending on the developer. Now it is shifting, where you can use AI to completely disrupt the development cycle. You can use autonomous coding agents to write the code for you.
You can use it to help you decompose code that needs to get rewritten and come up with different requirements. There is a whole different sort of set of tool sets that is like they are ready, willing to be used today. We are already making decisions to use more autonomous coding agents instead of hiring more people or using more contractors to deliver on some of the things that we are doing. You are going to see that continue to get bigger and bigger in terms of the efficiency benefit that you are going to get.
You are going to be able to move much, much faster to develop new things than you could have not that long ago. When you look at every other function within the company, there are opportunities to use it better. You think about even a function like legal, when you are using third-party firms to do research for you on a whole bunch of different topics, you can use AI and bring that in-house and do it much less expensive. You can use it in finance to help you do reporting, to understand trends better.
You can use it in operations, call centers, so there are a number of things that it will help you do in a much, much more efficient way. It will bring headcount down more, and as you grow, the effort you are going to need for every unit of growth is going to be much less than it was not that long ago. It really is almost every function within the company has some more to do to continue to use it to drive more efficiency. Whether headcount will be down every quarter forever, probably not, but we still have a lot more to do to continue to drive it.
It is a big focus, and as we come into the budgeting cycle for next year, we are approaching it the same way we have approached it every year I have been here. Let us start with how we are going to drive more efficiency and where that is going to be and how fast we can get at it. Then we can talk about separately where do we need to continue to make the investments. I think you will start to see AI help you improve a lot of the product capabilities, not just drive more efficiency. We are using it in the payment space on some of the tokenized deposit work, and it makes us go much, much faster to develop some of those new products as well.
Cool. Credit quality has obviously been really benign across the industry. Just any areas you are paying particular attention to, and then if the Fed starts to tighten, does that change things?
We look all the time for cracks, and we're just not seeing it yet. There's been strong performance across really every cohort on the consumer side. Delinquencies are a little better than we model, not worse, every time we have the conversation. We're not seeing the roll bucket, the initial bucket, start to give you any indication that there's something to get worried about yet. On the commercial side, same thing. It's a big portfolio, so you see some idiosyncratic company issues, but we're not seeing systemic concern come through the portfolio. We keep looking, but it's not quite there yet.
Just maybe on reserves. You've grown credit cards, grown auto. Those require reserves. On the flip side, office CRE continues to work its way down. Just how do you think about the outlook there?
Yeah. No, the coverage ratios have been quite stable across most portfolios, and as the auto and card book grow or other portfolios grow, you're going to see, obviously, you're going to have to add to the allowance for the growth. On the commercial real estate side, we're kind of getting towards the tail end, I guess, for lack of a better way to say it, that story in terms of working through the portfolios there. That continues to get better. As you have more certainty around the end result across the remaining credits you're working through, we've been releasing some of that reserve, and I think you'll see that continue likely over time.
Got it. Mentioned to me on capital, buyback for the last two and half years has kind of run $3 billion-$6 billion a quarter. Regulatory outlook likely getting better. You get a pickup there when that comes through. Just how are you thinking about the future pace of buybacks, and when do these upcoming regulatory changes influence your thinking on capital return?
Well, we probably need to get them to be finalized first. Hopefully, the rules will be finalized at some point soon, probably no earlier than year-end, but let's see. Before we start to incorporate that into our buyback pace, I think we need to see how that shakes out. I think as we've said, we believe it's going to be a positive impact on RWAs for us. The estimate we had was roughly 7%, but let's see when the rule gets finalized.
Then I think as we look forward, we want to make sure that we're supporting clients, and we see the balance sheet growth that comes through. Obviously, there's lots of risks that we think through in terms of rates and other things happening, and then the buybacks end up being the release valve for capital. I think we're still managing to the 10%-10.5% CET1, and we're very comfortable anywhere in that range. I think you'll see us continue to buy back stock as we go.
Got it. I guess we don't have to talk about an asset cap anymore, but at some point, maybe the national deposit cap comes to mind, and you still have room under to do a decent-sized bank acquisition, although every quarter you grow deposits, the size of potential targets gets smaller. Just how are you thinking about bank acquisitions? I know CNBC had a view last month. What's your view?
Yeah, I mean, don't believe everything you read, I guess, or listen to on TV. Look, I think we're focused on organic growth, and I think we're very fortunate that every one of our businesses has a huge runway to grow organically, and that's where we're focused. Could you see us do an acquisition that adds some kind of capability in the payment space or tech space?
Maybe. But I think overall, there's a high bar for us to think about acquisitions, and I think every day it's just a matter of focusing on the opportunity that's right in front of us across each of the businesses. Given our scale, given our franchise, given the client base that we've got across each of these businesses, there's a lot to do and a lot to go after, and that's really the focus of where we're spending our time.
Got it. Then maybe you have this medium-term ROTCE target of 17%-18%. I guess you're sort of there in the second quarter, although in a favorable backdrop. Maybe just talk to what are the key levers required to kind of stay at that level.
Well, look, we feel really good about the progress we've made on returns. Obviously, when we started this conversation, we were at, I think, 8% at one of these conferences. I think we obviously hit 15% and sort of increased from there. We feel really good about getting to sort of that range in a very reasonable amount of time. Then we believe that it goes higher from there. I think given the mix of our business, which is different than some of our peer set, that would lead you to sort of think that the number should, over a longer period of time, be higher than the 17%-18% range.
It just comes back down to sort of continue to execute on all the investments we're making across each of the businesses, continue to drive sort of the efficiencies that we've got, the opportunity we've got across the efficiency side there, and I think that'll get there. I think the good news is there's lots of different paths to sort of get to higher returns for us. It doesn't require perfect execution in any one business.
It doesn't require an outsized contribution across any one of the businesses. We just need to continue to show incremental progress across sort of the opportunities that we've got, and that should get us there in a very reasonable amount of time. Then we'll reset expectations from there, which we would expect to be a little bit higher than that.
I guess with the asset cap now off, maybe what area has kind of been maybe the biggest upside surprise relative to expectation? Is there any area that maybe you thought could have moved faster on that's maybe been a bit slower?
Well, we're always trying to go faster. I think we got to do it in a methodical sort of way. I think when you look across each of the businesses, we're pleased with the progress we've made. It has only been a year and change, what, 15 months maybe, since the asset cap went off. I think you've seen the balance sheet grow quite substantially. You've seen continued growth across every one of the businesses. Even this quarter, you look at the backdrop of what's happening across the CIB space. Our IB fees will be up year-on-year.
Our markets revenue and trading and fees will be up year-on-year, both probably sort of mid-single digits. We're seeing that growth really come through across each of the areas. I think whether it's wealth management business continue to do a really great job recruiting, driving flows on the platform, the consumer business, the productivity in the branches gets better and better every quarter.
We first saw it start to come through in the card space last year about this time, where we saw really an uptick in productivity. We're seeing that happen now across the checking account growth as well. You look at the CIB businesses I talked about, then you look at the commercial bank, where we're just seeing really good client acquisition, which is really helping sort of drive that loan growth, which is really what you want to see happen as you sort of add these.
We've added a couple hundred commercial bankers across the country in sort of higher opportunity markets that we have, and we're seeing it come through each of it. Now we have a lot more to do, and the progress isn't anywhere near where we'd want it to be yet in terms of really meeting sort of that aspiration we have. I think you're seeing really good results in each of the businesses, and the pace will be a little bit different depending on sort of the nature of what happens there.
Great. I think that's a perfect place to leave it. Please join me in thanking Mike for his time today.